Re: An interesting article on DEC

[Richard J. Kolb]

Interesting read, thanks for sharing and for the follow on comments.

I'm in the midst of working on porting code from Vax to modern hardware as
we speak.

Richard J. Kolb


On Sun, Oct 8, 2023 at 12:49 PM Jerry Feldman  wrote:

> Yes, the pdp-8 also supported multi user and multi tasking. The burger
> king manex system used os-8 as it's os.
>
> --
> Jerry Feldman 
> Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2023, 10:40 AM jon.maddog.h...@gmail.com <
> jonhal...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I also disagree with many items in the article.
>>
>> Ignoring architectures like the PDP-11 and implying that multi-user
>> started with VMS is just plain wrong.   The PDP-11 was a premier platform
>> for multi-user operating systems like RSTS, RSX-11, and Unix to name just a
>> few.
>>
>> Secondly the movement of the Linux kernel from being a
>> single-architecture 32-bit architecture to being a N-architecture, 32/64
>> bit kernel had immense impact on the computer industry and that was
>> facilitated by the Linux/Alpha project.
>>
>> Finally, I disagree that WNT was based either on OS/2 or VMS.   It was
>> based on a micro-kernel system that was developed by Dave Cutler and his
>> crew, and transported to Microsoft when Dave left and went there.   This
>> was one reason why the three architectures that were supported by WNT at
>> the announcement were Intel, MIPS and Alpha.   MIPS was dropped before
>> shipping since DEC did not care about it anymore.   Alpha was dropped as
>> soon as Microsoft could scrub all the code that came from DEC.
>>
>> I am familiar with this history since I was one of the people that Dave
>> Cutler interviewed for being a product manager for the system when Dave was
>> still working for DEC.   It was only months later that he left for
>> Microsoft.
>>
>> md
>>
>>
>> On 10/07/2023 4:35 PM EDT mik...@colossus.bilow.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> It's a great article. I was the principal consultant for IDS in that era,
>> and there is a staff alumni group active on Facebook where I posted this
>> link.
>>
>> I disagree with a number of the claims in the article, especially that
>> Windows NT was based on VMS when in fact it was based on and developed
>> using OS/2. There is a good and detailed book about this:
>>
>>
>> https://www.gpascalzachary.com/showstopper__the_breakneck_race_to_create_windows_nt_and_the_next_generation_at_m_50101.htm
>>
>>
>> On 10/7/23 16:07, Don wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/long-gone-dec-is-still-powering-the-world-of-computing/
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: An interesting article on DEC

[Jerry Feldman]

Yes, the pdp-8 also supported multi user and multi tasking. The burger king
manex system used os-8 as it's os.

--
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org

On Sun, Oct 8, 2023, 10:40 AM jon.maddog.h...@gmail.com <
jonhal...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I also disagree with many items in the article.
>
> Ignoring architectures like the PDP-11 and implying that multi-user
> started with VMS is just plain wrong.   The PDP-11 was a premier platform
> for multi-user operating systems like RSTS, RSX-11, and Unix to name just a
> few.
>
> Secondly the movement of the Linux kernel from being a single-architecture
> 32-bit architecture to being a N-architecture, 32/64 bit kernel had immense
> impact on the computer industry and that was facilitated by the Linux/Alpha
> project.
>
> Finally, I disagree that WNT was based either on OS/2 or VMS.   It was
> based on a micro-kernel system that was developed by Dave Cutler and his
> crew, and transported to Microsoft when Dave left and went there.   This
> was one reason why the three architectures that were supported by WNT at
> the announcement were Intel, MIPS and Alpha.   MIPS was dropped before
> shipping since DEC did not care about it anymore.   Alpha was dropped as
> soon as Microsoft could scrub all the code that came from DEC.
>
> I am familiar with this history since I was one of the people that Dave
> Cutler interviewed for being a product manager for the system when Dave was
> still working for DEC.   It was only months later that he left for
> Microsoft.
>
> md
>
>
> On 10/07/2023 4:35 PM EDT mik...@colossus.bilow.com wrote:
>
>
>
> It's a great article. I was the principal consultant for IDS in that era,
> and there is a staff alumni group active on Facebook where I posted this
> link.
>
> I disagree with a number of the claims in the article, especially that
> Windows NT was based on VMS when in fact it was based on and developed
> using OS/2. There is a good and detailed book about this:
>
>
> https://www.gpascalzachary.com/showstopper__the_breakneck_race_to_create_windows_nt_and_the_next_generation_at_m_50101.htm
>
>
> On 10/7/23 16:07, Don wrote:
>
>
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/long-gone-dec-is-still-powering-the-world-of-computing/
>
>
>
>
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Re: An interesting article on DEC

[jon.maddog.h...@gmail.com]

I also disagree with many items in the article.

Ignoring architectures like the PDP-11 and implying that multi-user started 
with VMS is just plain wrong.   The PDP-11 was a premier platform for 
multi-user operating systems like RSTS, RSX-11, and Unix to name just a few.

Secondly the movement of the Linux kernel from being a single-architecture 
32-bit architecture to being a N-architecture, 32/64 bit kernel had immense 
impact on the computer industry and that was facilitated by the Linux/Alpha 
project.

Finally, I disagree that WNT was based either on OS/2 or VMS.   It was based on 
a micro-kernel system that was developed by Dave Cutler and his crew, and 
transported to Microsoft when Dave left and went there.   This was one reason 
why the three architectures that were supported by WNT at the announcement were 
Intel, MIPS and Alpha.   MIPS was dropped before shipping since DEC did not 
care about it anymore.   Alpha was dropped as soon as Microsoft could scrub all 
the code that came from DEC.

I am familiar with this history since I was one of the people that Dave Cutler 
interviewed for being a product manager for the system when Dave was still 
working for DEC.   It was only months later that he left for Microsoft.

md



> On 10/07/2023 4:35 PM EDT mik...@colossus.bilow.com wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> It's a great article. I was the principal consultant for IDS in that era, and 
> there is a staff alumni group active on Facebook where I posted this link.
> 
> I disagree with a number of the claims in the article, especially that 
> Windows NT was based on VMS when in fact it was based on and developed using 
> OS/2. There is a good and detailed book about this:
> 
> https://www.gpascalzachary.com/showstopper__the_breakneck_race_to_create_windows_nt_and_the_next_generation_at_m_50101.htm
> 
>  
> 
> On 10/7/23 16:07, Don wrote:
> 
> > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/long-gone-dec-is-still-powering-the-world-of-computing/
> > 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
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Re: An interesting article on DEC

[ROGER LEVASSEUR]

I so miss DEC.  Bulk of CS degree was earned utilizing a DECSYSTEM-20, a VAX, 
and PDP-11 computers.  Later I worked for DEC/Compaq/HP in the late 90s/early 
2000s.
 
 -roger
 

> On 10/07/2023 4:07 PM EDT Don  wrote:
>  
>  
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/long-gone-dec-is-still-powering-the-world-of-computing/
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Re: An interesting article on DEC

[mikebw]

It's a great article. I was the principal consultant for IDS in that 
era, and there is a staff alumni group active on Facebook where I posted 
this link.


I disagree with a number of the claims in the article, especially that 
Windows NT was based on VMS when in fact it was based on and developed 
using OS/2. There is a good and detailed book about this:


https://www.gpascalzachary.com/showstopper__the_breakneck_race_to_create_windows_nt_and_the_next_generation_at_m_50101.htm


On 10/7/23 16:07, Don wrote:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/long-gone-dec-is-still-powering-the-world-of-computing/



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An interesting article on DEC

[Don]

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/long-gone-dec-is-still-powering-the-world-of-computing/ 
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Re: Interesting article,

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

>I propose the "rarely" here is a function of the company in question.
>Even Apple falls into this category for they did not design every thing
>about everything they sell either.  To that point, there is rarely a
>company worth much more than they are charging across most industries.
>=)

The issue is not whether a company designs or produces everything they
sell.  It is whether they select, qualify, integrate, continue to
monitor quality and support that element as their own.

Digital did not produce all the printers that they shipped as "Digital",
but each printer that you bought from Digital was brought into the
printer engineering group, had filters and software written for it for
each operating system that was going to support it, and then had testing
and sign-off for that printer.

That work and overhead typically made that "DEC Printer" (which might
have shipped with the Printronix manual set still inside) more expensive
than if you bought it right from Printronix.  On the other hand, if you
bought it from DEC you had the right to expect it would work with the
rest of DEC's environment.

Of course just because you had the right to expect that did not always
mean the stupid printer actually worked,...but it often was close. :-)

Ever wonder why graphics people like Apple stuff?  Because the colors
you see brought in through an Apple scanner are probably the same hues
you see on an Apple screen and are reflected properly on an Apple
printer.

Want to do the same thing with Microsoft or Linux?  Get out your Pantone
color guide, at least three different manuals and two six packs of beer,
because you will need the beer.

md


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The illegality of playing DVDs on Linux (was Re: Interesting article)

[Alan Johnson]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Jon 'maddog' Hall  wrote:
> >>Not one Linux distro I've seen does a convincing job with consumer
> >>media, an absolutely basic requirement, and something we ought to be
> >>able to get right.
> >
> > Well, please ask the DVD people not to used royalty bearing patents in
> > their codecs, and encryption practices ...
>
> ...

>   The problem with "consumer media" is mostly
> political/legal/economic, not technical. There's a huge amount of
> money being spent to ensure that a small number of large companies
> continue to wield control of the field.  They're willing to spend that
> money because they are protecting an even huger amount of money.
> Linux can provide code, but it can't provide legality.  Nominally, the
> solution is to change the law -- write your congressperson, that sort
> of thing.  But again, lots of money is being spent to keep things the
> way they are.
>
>  Mass public outcry is required, and getting that looks to be
> difficult.
>

I believe it was this pod cast http://twit.tv/floss95 where I heard this
paraphrased quote: "Under DRM laws in the US, not only is it illegal to play
DVDs on Linux, but it is illegal to tell some one else how to do it."  So, I
can't speak to whether or not I've seen Ubuntu play DVDs very nicely if you
install one magical package from the repo.  And to be fair, I haven't tried
recently, so I would also not know if this is something that can still be
done, but I do believe there are some advantages, that may or may not be
related to this subject, to using distros provided by
organizations/companies based outside the US.

If some one feels compelled to listen to that episode (and I encourage you
all to do so), I would greatly appreciate if you would post the exact quote
here.

Fight the power!
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Re: Interesting article,

[Alan Johnson]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Alan Johnson  wrote:
> >>> > Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.
> >>>
> >>>  Indeed, that's a big part of Apple's strategy.  Design the hardware
> >>> and the software together, and they'll work well together.  And there
> >>> is something to be said for that.
> >>
> >> And that's one of Apple's prime advantages.
> >
> > Advantage?  Well, for Apple, it is an advantages over MS, but certainly
> not
> > for the users.
>
>   Eh, I'm not sure about that.  If you buy from Apple's extremely
> limited pool of products, things tend to work together far better than
> I've seen on any Microsoft-compatible platform, even if you buy from a
> single vendor.
>

Ah, but I've had even better luck sticking to hardware vetted by the Ubuntu
community, and it didn't cost me my freedom, just quite a bit of my geek
cycles, which certainly have there own value. And of course, I've been able
to do things with Ubuntu that I'd never be able to get working with Apple or
MS software.


>  The IBM pee sea is a loose collection of vaguely similar things
> which happen to work together sometimes -- and that's being kind.
> Even if you buy everything from a single vendor, things rarely work as
> well together as they do when one company designs everything.


I propose the "rarely" here is a function of the company in question.  Even
Apple falls into this category for they did not design every thing about
everything they sell either.  To that point, there is rarely a company worth
much more than they are charging across most industries. =)


> The
> IBM-PC platform was not designed -- it evolved.  Like the house that
> Jack built, things have been stuck on, later removed, changed,
> modified, extended, and reinterpreted so many times, by so many
> different actors, it's a wonder it stays standing.  The single-vendor
> solution has to be built to work in that environment, and that's
> harder to do.
>

The same applies to Apple and Open Source systems, only Apple tor down and
rebuilt more recently than MS, and it is a regular occurrence in open
systems because the openness enables it.


>
>  In contrast, the Apple dictatorship does mean that standards are
> actually... well, *standard*.  Look at Jerry Feldman's problems with
> partitioning.  Ask three different programs how to do partitioning on
> an IBM-PC, and you'll get at least four different, mutually
> incompatible, data-destroying answers.  In the People's Republic of
> Cupertino that would never happen.  Whatever Apple decrees is The One
> True Way to do things.
>

There is certainly value in a known set of components that work well
together.  You left out the part of my text that pointed explicitly to Apple
making it illegal to use those parts with others outside their blessed set.
Tell me you won't support me for playing with others?  Fine.  Put it in your
EULA that you can sue me if I do?  Go to hell.  That's all I'm saying.


>
> > The only reason Windows has dominance over Linux is inertia ...
>
>  Just as the only reason mankind is limited to one planet is inertia.
>

Nope, that's gravity.  ;-)  If it were not for gravity, inertia would fling
us off into space.  But I don't think either of us are making points
relevant to the topic, eh?  =)


>
> > ... and the only reason Apple has dominance over Linux is marketing.
>
>   Certainly, Apple's marketing is brilliant.  They know exactly what
> people want to hear, and they say it.  But, in all fairness, they also
> steer their ship in that direction as well.  They see a lot of people
> frustrated with the pee sea, and they build their platform -- the car
> with the hood welded shut -- specifically to appeal to that crowd.
>

Welding the hood shut does not provide value to drivers that would not open
it in the first place and takes away value from those that would, or know a
friend how is handle with a wrench, or would rather take his car to a local
mechanic than to the dealer.


>
> > Apple could have
> > crushed MS by now if they had gone with the GPL attitude instead of
> picking
> > BSD so they could keep all their toys to themselves.
>
>   Yah, I'm not buying that.  If all you needed was the GPL, Linux
> would already have crushed Microsoft.  It's had 20 years and Microsoft
> has only gotten stronger in that time.  (When Linux first came out,
> you also had a fleet of commercial Unixes, Novel, several BSDs, OS/2,
> BeOS, and all sorts of other bit player platforms.  Today it's all
> Microsoft, with Apple and Linux nipping at their heels.  If I were to
> draw a conclusion from that, it would be that GPL is good for crushing
> bit players, not the big guys.)
>

I did not say it was all that was needed.  I only suggest that if you take
the beauty and elegance of Apple's skin, subtract out the "I wrote it, you
can't have it, even though 90% of it I got for free from BSD" attitude, add
in a share-and-share-alike mentality, and I think

Re: Interesting article

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

>  Again, I don't have a good answer, but that doesn't mean the problem
>goes away.  "Linux still sucks".

Just to be clear, in this particular case any freely distributable piece
of code that relies on royalty bearing codecs sucks.

That includes BSD, Hurd, Minux, Android, MeeGO, etc.

md

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Re: Interesting article

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Jon 'maddog' Hall  wrote:
>>Not one Linux distro I've seen does a convincing job with consumer
>>media, an absolutely basic requirement, and something we ought to be
>>able to get right.
>
> Well, please ask the DVD people not to used royalty bearing patents in
> their codecs, and encryption practices ...

  Again, explaining why it is a hard problem does nothing to reduce
the problem.  We can bitch and moan about the copyright cartels all we
want, but the end-user is still unable to play DVDs on Linux, and
that's still a reason "Linux sucks".

  This is an area where Linux is *really* disadvantaged.  A lot of
problems are purely technological.  Apply some time and "enough
eyeballs", as ESR says, and the FOSS community will likely solve them.

  The problem with "consumer media" is mostly
political/legal/economic, not technical. There's a huge amount of
money being spent to ensure that a small number of large companies
continue to wield control of the field.  They're willing to spend that
money because they are protecting an even huger amount of money.
Linux can provide code, but it can't provide legality.  Nominally, the
solution is to change the law -- write your congressperson, that sort
of thing.  But again, lots of money is being spent to keep things the
way they are.

  Mass public outcry is required, and getting that looks to be
difficult.  People are conditioned to be "consumers", to pay for
everything.  "Intellectual property" law is notoriously poorly
understood by most people.  I work at company where "intellectual
property" is a key part of the material being manufactured, and people
who really should know better are regularly surprised by how this
stuff works (especially that works are copyright at their inception,
no registration or notification required).  So people don't even know
there is a problem, don't understand the problem when it is explained,
and just don't seem to care that much.

  Again, I don't have a good answer, but that doesn't mean the problem
goes away.  "Linux still sucks".

-- Ben
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Re: Why Linux has problems with proprietary multimedia... (was: Interesting article)

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen
 wrote:
>> Apple and Microsoft have paid up royalties on these things ...
>
> ... which has me wondering: how does Ubuntu get away with shipping all
> of the stuff necessary to do DVD-authoring!?

  While I've never touched Ubuntu's "DVD authoring" stuff, I can add
some additional speculations, in addition to maddog's very cogent
points:

  At a lower level, a DVD is just a filesystem.  They don't have to be
restricted using anyone's special crypto, nor do they have to use any
particular codec.  In order for them to play in a consumer appliance
which implements "DVD Video" and *only* DVD Video, the files have to
have particular names and use particular codecs, but they still don't
need special crypto.  Many consumer appliance these days implement
additional codecs, meaning the files just have to particular names if
you don't care about broad compatibility.  Your DVD will not meet "DVD
Video" studio requirements, but presumably you're not interested in
that, you just want the damn thing to play.

  It's *playing* the discs from the big studios that requires all the
encumbered crypto and codecs.

  Legal technicalities may also enter into play.  Sometimes the
originator is technically in a non-US jurisdiction where they can
publish something without paying fees.  Sometimes it's legal to
distribute but not to use.

-- Ben
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Re: Interesting article

[Bill McGonigle]

On 03/05/2010 05:00 PM, Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote:
> I was looking into what it would take in the way of patent royalties to
> put Android onto the Openmoko phone.  It was a mess, even just paying
> the royalties on a hardware basis.  But people can not afford to pay the
> royalties on free CDs that they give away and may never even
> install...or royalties for downloads that may not even make it to CDs.

Has anybody here tried out the Fluendo codecs?

   http://www.fluendo.com/shop/category/end-user-products/

I'd be willing to pay for them if they worked well and broadly.  I've 
heard they only work in gstreamer though, I'd want something that works 
with ffmpeg/mplayer/KDE/etc.

I also note that the codec pack costs about 2x what an OEM copy of 
Windows costs the big distributors - I'm not sure if that's a poor 
licensing deal to Fluendo or to its users.

-Bill

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BFC Computing, LLC
http://bfccomputing.com/
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Email, IM, VOIP: b...@bfccomputing.com
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Re: Why Linux has problems with proprietary multimedia... (was: Interesting article)

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

>... which has me wondering: how does Ubuntu get away with shipping all
>of the stuff necessary to do DVD-authoring!?

Ahhh, what does it meant to do "DVD-authoring"?  Moving encoded bits on
a DVD?  No problem!  Taking video bits from my video camera (encoded
into Mpeg) and putting it onto my DVD?  No problem!  Making a DVD of Ogg
Theora?  No problem!

Encoding?  Depends on the patents involved, the licensing around the
patents, and so forth.

The results of the encoding?

The H.264 patent group has recently released yet another wave of grace
over mpeg-4 streams "free to end users" would not have to have royalties
paid on the *streams*.

Of course what "free to end users" is creates another whole bag of
worms.

>I looked into making DVDs with one of my Debian machines at one point,
>and quickly accumulated a long list of things that had been
>intentionally
>left out of Debian due to clear-and-present patent dangers, and that I
>decided against pursuing *not* out of fear for the *technical* issues
>involved (pshaw!) but out of fear that I end up setting myself up for
>some patent-troll to `pursue a cross-licensing relationship with' me
>(did I get that euphamism right?) in the future.

You have to watch those relationships with Trolls.they create really
ugly offspring.

Now I think I am going to have a beer.I need a beer

md

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Why Linux has problems with proprietary multimedia... (was: Interesting article)

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

"Jon 'maddog' Hall"  writes:
>
> > Not one Linux distro I've seen does a convincing job with consumer
> > media, an absolutely basic requirement, and something we ought to be
> > able to get right.
>
> Well, please ask the DVD people not to used royalty bearing patents in
> their codecs, and encryption practices that would have the DMCA down on
> the headquarters of Fedora, OpenSUSE and others.
>
> > movie or sound file
>
> H.264?  Mpeg3/4/2?
>
> Have your friends send you Ogg Vorbis stuff.  Plays fine.
>
> Apple and Microsoft have paid up royalties on these things (or at least
> Microsoft thought it had paid up royalties on mp3 until Alcatel/Lucent
> raised their hand a couple of years ago), so they can ship as many
> royalty-bearing codecs as they want.

... which has me wondering: how does Ubuntu get away with shipping all
of the stuff necessary to do DVD-authoring!?

I looked into making DVDs with one of my Debian machines at one point,
and quickly accumulated a long list of things that had been intentionally
left out of Debian due to clear-and-present patent dangers, and that I
decided against pursuing *not* out of fear for the *technical* issues
involved (pshaw!) but out of fear that I end up setting myself up for
some patent-troll to `pursue a cross-licensing relationship with' me
(did I get that euphamism right?) in the future.

-- 
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Re: Interesting article

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

Ralph,

While I agree with some things you said:

>Not one Linux distro I've seen does a convincing job with consumer
>media, an absolutely basic requirement, and something we ought to be
>able to get right.

Well, please ask the DVD people not to used royalty bearing patents in
their codecs, and encryption practices that would have the DMCA down on
the headquarters of Fedora, OpenSUSE and others.

>movie or sound file

H.264?  Mpeg3/4/2?

Have your friends send you Ogg Vorbis stuff.  Plays fine.

Apple and Microsoft have paid up royalties on these things (or at least
Microsoft thought it had paid up royalties on mp3 until Alcatel/Lucent
raised their hand a couple of years ago), so they can ship as many
royalty-bearing codecs as they want.

I was looking into what it would take in the way of patent royalties to
put Android onto the Openmoko phone.  It was a mess, even just paying
the royalties on a hardware basis.  But people can not afford to pay the
royalties on free CDs that they give away and may never even
install...or royalties for downloads that may not even make it to CDs.

Sooo, installing these codecs is a "research project" as you call it.

>However, if Linux were an attractive entertainment platform in all
>other ways, I suspect people would put it on their computers for that -
>can't beat the price - and then companies would start writing games for
>the platform. Until you can at least play a DVD after first boot,
>forget it. Too much trouble. Not even close.

There were a couple of projects that did this.  LinuxMCE comes to mind.
There were even companies that had products based on it.

Hmmm, LinuxMCE seems to have gotten a new lease on life.  I may try it
again.

md


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Re: Interesting article

[Ralph Mack]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Alan Johnson  wrote:

 >>>  >  Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.
  
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Indeed, that's a big part of Apple's strategy.  Design the hardware
>>> >>>  and the software together, and they'll work well together.  And there
>>> >>>  is something to be said for that.
>>>
>> >>
>> >>  And that's one of Apple's prime advantages.
>>  
> >
> >  Advantage?  Well, for Apple, it is an advantages over MS, but certainly not
> >  for the users.
>
Those of us on this list are passionate about computers. But let's face it,
unless you're a geek, a computer is about as interesting as a telephone or
a toaster oven or a DVD player. In the real world, a computer is a convenient
appliance for interpersonal communication and entertainment. It shouldn't be
something you have to spend time on.

If you want to make Linux work for the world, you need to provide an out-of-
the-box experience where you install the OS and it JUST WORKS with all the
obvious tools close at hand. Apple and at least the better Windows box vendors
have managed to do a decent job at this. Linux hasn't until recently.

Ubuntu seems to provide a good basic level of first-boot usability in most
things. I've had no problem with sound or wireless on my HP laptop running
Ubuntu 9.04, common areas of difficulty on some distros I've tried. I have
had some odd issues with repaints after the system has been idle for a while,
though. (I'm not sure if this is an issue with the NVidia drivers.) That kind
of thing wouldn't be appropriate in an appliance.

Not one Linux distro I've seen does a convincing job with consumer media, an
absolutely basic requirement, and something we ought to be able to get right.
I should be able to use my computer to do anything that the gear in my living
room can do without having to expend effort to make it work - play DVDs using
the menus, use webcams like vidcams, record television like a DVR. If a
friend sends you a movie or sound file, you should be able to just click it and
play it without it turning into a research project. We'll get there but we 
aren't
there yet. Once you can do that on Linux, you have a potential consumer market -
those who don't play computer games. :)

The one piece of living room gear that may prove an intractable challenge for
Linux to match is the game console. I have always had to keep a Windows system
around for games and some Windows-only applications. I haven't yet found a 
package
on Linux that actually emulates Windows well enough to play games without
endless experimentation. I haven't found one useful Windows XP program for which
Wine works and during the period I subscribed to Cedega, somebody had made just
about every game work, it seemed, except the few I made time to play. Go figure.
No surprises there, though. Being Windows reliably is an intractable problem.
Even Microsoft has a hard time pulling it off. :)

However, if Linux were an attractive entertainment platform in all other ways,
I suspect people would put it on their computers for that - can't beat the 
price -
and then companies would start writing games for the platform. Until you can
at least play a DVD after first boot, forget it. Too much trouble. Not even 
close.

Lupestro


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Re: Interesting article, games

[Bill McGonigle]

On 03/05/2010 12:36 PM, Thomas Charron wrote:
> But there's a whole slew of
> custom-google-glue-and-tweaks, which was disappointing.

Yeah, Google likes to grab a project, modify it to its own needs, and 
throw the code over the wall.  Same as happens for Chrome.  Tom Callaway 
at Fedora did yeoman's work figuring this all out, building patch files, 
proper RPM's, etc., but then found that there were licensing violations 
too and had to abandon it.  Google could do this work if it wanted to 
(it was a part-time effort for Tom) but they choose not to.  The Android 
stuff has been removed from linux for now since their sleep locking 
stuff was only optimized for time-to-market.

The community-friendly project that's most like Android is MeeGo, the 
merger of Maemo (Nokia) and Moblin (Intel), which is now essentially a 
Fedora derivative.  It would be lovely if Google participated in the 
community too.

-Bill

-- 
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BFC Computing, LLC
http://bfccomputing.com/
Telephone: +1.603.448.4440
Email, IM, VOIP: b...@bfccomputing.com
VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf
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Re: Interesting article,

[David Hardy]

Between everyone here I continue to learn a helluva lot about what's going
on with Linux vs. everything else, and am always grateful for it,
particularly for the input from md and Ben recently.  So, while having
nothing much to contribute at this time other than congratulations and
thanks for such intel and opinion,  my best wishes from northern Vermont as
the snow begins? to melt away and the sugar sap is running steady.

Old Farmer Davy
Pavilion Farm (1806)
West Montpeculiar

VAX/VMS and OpenVMS ex-operator, sys admin, and "infrastructure analyst" and
Alpha fan (hey, remember the AlphaServers?  running VMS, NT or Red Hat while
using practically zip for RAM or disk space???) (engineers, developers and
sys admins went first to NT then to India then to Linux)

DEC and HP-UNIX sys admin
WinNT sys admin
Windows Servers sys admin
Red Hat sys admin
Unemployed (until md needs a bodyguard and/or door gunner for his travels
worldwide)


On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Jon 'maddog' Hall  wrote:

> O.K., I will wade in here. :-)
>
> For the most part, Ben is right.  Vendors who completely control both
> hardware and software can make the "best" products, if your definition
> of "best" is a limited market of items, and you are willing to pay for
> them.  MVS, VMS, Digital Unix.  Rock solid, stable, scalable.  REALLY
> EXPENSIVE.
>
> A lot of Microsoft's problems have to do with drivers that come from
> different vendors, trying to control different controllers that fit into
> buses that are not that well documented.  One mistake in a driver
> (inside the monolithic kernel) and BAM!  Lockup and blue screen.  I am
> amazed that Microsoft's eco-system can actually boot at all.
>
> >> Apple could have
> >> crushed MS by now if they had gone with the GPL attitude instead of
> >> picking BSD so they could keep all their toys to themselves.
>
> >Yah, I'm not buying that.  If all you needed was the GPL, Linux
> >would already have crushed Microsoft.
>
> Ben, I think you are under-estimating your own argument about inertia.
>
> Inertia is all about acceleration, not really speed.  In 1991 Microsoft
> was already going 50,000 mph and accelerating and Linux started from
> zero, with almost zero acceleration.  In 1994 a lot of the vendors
> seemed as if they were going to give the server market to WNT.  There
> were a lot of people saying that "Unix was dead".
>
> After twenty years Microsoft is still accelerating, but I think it is
> accelerating at a slower pace, and FOSS is accelerating at a faster
> pace, but has still not caught up.  Then there is distance traveled, or
> "speed over time" (in this case, installed base).  It may take a very,
> very long time before FOSS has the same installed base, much less
> "crushing Microsoft".
>
> Apple has existed for about the same time as Microsoft, and still has
> about the same market penetration as twenty years ago.  Its acceleration
> is a lot slower, and more or less allowed it to keep the same desktop
> and server market share (or maybe lost server market share in that
> time).
>
> >(When Linux first came out, you also had a fleet of commercial Unixes,
> >Novel, several BSDs, OS/2, BeOS, and all sorts of other bit player
> >platforms.  Today it's all Microsoft, with Apple and Linux nipping at
> >their heels.
>
> Sadly, and from a "choice" and "research" viewpoint this is true.  But
> the fragmentation meant that unless any of them reached critical stage,
> they would be just what you said "bit players", and would have died
> anyway.
>
> >  Absolutely correct!  However, the fact that's it's a hard problem to
> >solve doesn't mean it isn't a problem.  Indeed, the fact that it's a
> >hard problem is why it hasn't been solved yet, and why the best idea
> >anyone has come up with is sheer persistence over time.
>
> Yupolutely!  And in May of 1994 I came back from meeting Linus Torvalds
> and made a presentation to my Digital Unix management at DEC that had as
> a final bullet on the last page:
>
> o Linux is inevitable!
>
> They asked me what that bullet meant, and I said that no one could stop
> Linux.  My management laughed.
>
> Now Digital Unix is dead and most of them work for Red Hat.
>
> What I meant by "Linux is inevitable" was that the concept of designing
> a FOSS ecosystem with community was inevitable.  "Linux" itself may
> migrate, fork, evolve, etc. but the model is here, and it will
> accelerate.
>
> When I worked for Bell Labs in 1982 I heard someone say "I do not know
> what the next operating system will be, but I bet it will be based on
> Unix."  I answered "I don't know what the next operating system will be,
> but I bet it will be called Unix", meaning that the operating system
> would evolve maintaining the same name.  I was only wrong by a couple of
> letters. :-)
>
> md
>
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Re: Interesting article,

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

O.K., I will wade in here. :-)

For the most part, Ben is right.  Vendors who completely control both
hardware and software can make the "best" products, if your definition
of "best" is a limited market of items, and you are willing to pay for
them.  MVS, VMS, Digital Unix.  Rock solid, stable, scalable.  REALLY
EXPENSIVE.

A lot of Microsoft's problems have to do with drivers that come from
different vendors, trying to control different controllers that fit into
buses that are not that well documented.  One mistake in a driver
(inside the monolithic kernel) and BAM!  Lockup and blue screen.  I am
amazed that Microsoft's eco-system can actually boot at all.

>> Apple could have
>> crushed MS by now if they had gone with the GPL attitude instead of
>> picking BSD so they could keep all their toys to themselves.

>Yah, I'm not buying that.  If all you needed was the GPL, Linux
>would already have crushed Microsoft.

Ben, I think you are under-estimating your own argument about inertia.

Inertia is all about acceleration, not really speed.  In 1991 Microsoft
was already going 50,000 mph and accelerating and Linux started from
zero, with almost zero acceleration.  In 1994 a lot of the vendors
seemed as if they were going to give the server market to WNT.  There
were a lot of people saying that "Unix was dead".

After twenty years Microsoft is still accelerating, but I think it is
accelerating at a slower pace, and FOSS is accelerating at a faster
pace, but has still not caught up.  Then there is distance traveled, or
"speed over time" (in this case, installed base).  It may take a very,
very long time before FOSS has the same installed base, much less
"crushing Microsoft".

Apple has existed for about the same time as Microsoft, and still has
about the same market penetration as twenty years ago.  Its acceleration
is a lot slower, and more or less allowed it to keep the same desktop
and server market share (or maybe lost server market share in that
time).

>(When Linux first came out, you also had a fleet of commercial Unixes,
>Novel, several BSDs, OS/2, BeOS, and all sorts of other bit player
>platforms.  Today it's all Microsoft, with Apple and Linux nipping at
>their heels.

Sadly, and from a "choice" and "research" viewpoint this is true.  But
the fragmentation meant that unless any of them reached critical stage,
they would be just what you said "bit players", and would have died
anyway.

>  Absolutely correct!  However, the fact that's it's a hard problem to
>solve doesn't mean it isn't a problem.  Indeed, the fact that it's a
>hard problem is why it hasn't been solved yet, and why the best idea
>anyone has come up with is sheer persistence over time.

Yupolutely!  And in May of 1994 I came back from meeting Linus Torvalds
and made a presentation to my Digital Unix management at DEC that had as
a final bullet on the last page:

 o Linux is inevitable!

They asked me what that bullet meant, and I said that no one could stop
Linux.  My management laughed.

Now Digital Unix is dead and most of them work for Red Hat.

What I meant by "Linux is inevitable" was that the concept of designing
a FOSS ecosystem with community was inevitable.  "Linux" itself may
migrate, fork, evolve, etc. but the model is here, and it will
accelerate.

When I worked for Bell Labs in 1982 I heard someone say "I do not know
what the next operating system will be, but I bet it will be based on
Unix."  I answered "I don't know what the next operating system will be,
but I bet it will be called Unix", meaning that the operating system
would evolve maintaining the same name.  I was only wrong by a couple of
letters. :-)

md

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Re: Interesting article,

[Tom Buskey]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Alan Johnson  wrote:
> >>> > Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.
> >>>
> >>>  Indeed, that's a big part of Apple's strategy.  Design the hardware
> >>> and the software together, and they'll work well together.  And there
> >>> is something to be said for that.
> >>
> >> And that's one of Apple's prime advantages.
> >
> > Advantage?  Well, for Apple, it is an advantages over MS, but certainly
> not
> > for the users.
>
>   Eh, I'm not sure about that.  If you buy from Apple's extremely
> limited pool of products, things tend to work together far better than
> I've seen on any Microsoft-compatible platform, even if you buy from a
> single vendor.
>
>
This follows with Sun products too.  Solaris on a Sun x86 workstation works
very well & everything works.  Put Solaris on a Dell and your mileage may
vary with network, sound and graphics drivers.  Linux has more drivers
ported and will usually just work where Solaris won't.

I have a Linux box at home to drive my SCSI tape drive because none of the
older SCSI PCI adapters I have are supported in 64 bit Solaris.  Some might
be supported in 32 bit Solaris.  Since they're older, Sun and the vendors
don't have much interest in porting the drivers.  There are a few open
source drivers out there, but nowhere near what Linux has.
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Re: Interesting article,

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Alan Johnson  wrote:
>>> > Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.
>>>
>>>  Indeed, that's a big part of Apple's strategy.  Design the hardware
>>> and the software together, and they'll work well together.  And there
>>> is something to be said for that.
>>
>> And that's one of Apple's prime advantages.
>
> Advantage?  Well, for Apple, it is an advantages over MS, but certainly not
> for the users.

  Eh, I'm not sure about that.  If you buy from Apple's extremely
limited pool of products, things tend to work together far better than
I've seen on any Microsoft-compatible platform, even if you buy from a
single vendor.

  The IBM pee sea is a loose collection of vaguely similar things
which happen to work together sometimes -- and that's being kind.
Even if you buy everything from a single vendor, things rarely work as
well together as they do when one company designs everything.  The
IBM-PC platform was not designed -- it evolved.  Like the house that
Jack built, things have been stuck on, later removed, changed,
modified, extended, and reinterpreted so many times, by so many
different actors, it's a wonder it stays standing.  The single-vendor
solution has to be built to work in that environment, and that's
harder to do.

  In contrast, the Apple dictatorship does mean that standards are
actually... well, *standard*.  Look at Jerry Feldman's problems with
partitioning.  Ask three different programs how to do partitioning on
an IBM-PC, and you'll get at least four different, mutually
incompatible, data-destroying answers.  In the People's Republic of
Cupertino that would never happen.  Whatever Apple decrees is The One
True Way to do things.

  Does this limit freedom?  Absolutely!  Would I, personally, give up
that freedom to get the uniformity of design?  No way!  But for
someone who's interests consist entirely of surfing the web, listening
to music, and doing the occasional resume or spreadsheet -- they see a
real appeal in having someone else do all your thinking for them.

  As Larry Wall said about Perl, "Perl doesn't stop you from doing
stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever
things".  Well, Apple stops their platform from doing stupid things.
As with any dictatorship, things are great as long as you happen to
agree with the dictator.  But if one day the dictator decrees that
computers should only be available with glossy screens, and you want a
matte screen... well, too bad for you.

  Or: Apple no longer makes printers.  So if you want to print from
your oh-so-perfect Mac, you have to leave the Apple utopia, and come
back to the ecosystem of the mass market.  That's something Apple
doesn't mention in their advertisements.  Which is interesting,
because their target market includes a lot of people who like to print
everything...

> The only reason Windows has dominance over Linux is inertia ...

  Just as the only reason mankind is limited to one planet is inertia.

> ... and the only reason Apple has dominance over Linux is marketing.

  Certainly, Apple's marketing is brilliant.  They know exactly what
people want to hear, and they say it.  But, in all fairness, they also
steer their ship in that direction as well.  They see a lot of people
frustrated with the pee sea, and they build their platform -- the car
with the hood welded shut -- specifically to appeal to that crowd.

> Apple could have
> crushed MS by now if they had gone with the GPL attitude instead of picking
> BSD so they could keep all their toys to themselves.

  Yah, I'm not buying that.  If all you needed was the GPL, Linux
would already have crushed Microsoft.  It's had 20 years and Microsoft
has only gotten stronger in that time.  (When Linux first came out,
you also had a fleet of commercial Unixes, Novel, several BSDs, OS/2,
BeOS, and all sorts of other bit player platforms.  Today it's all
Microsoft, with Apple and Linux nipping at their heels.  If I were to
draw a conclusion from that, it would be that GPL is good for crushing
bit players, not the big guys.)

> To be clear in limiting my own zealotry, I concede that there are a number a
> specific use cases that are better addressed by Windows or Apple.  However,
> the vast majority of those are catch-22's like the ones described in the
> article that started this thread.

  Absolutely correct!  However, the fact that's it's a hard problem to
solve doesn't mean it isn't a problem.  Indeed, the fact that it's a
hard problem is why it hasn't been solved yet, and why the best idea
anyone has come up with is sheer persistence over time.

-- Ben

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Thomas Charron]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Thomas Charron  wrote:
>>  Except for the fact that Andriod is pretty much all written in Java.
>>  :-D  And doesn't use X.  And must be run in a VM which isn't the Java
>> VM.
>  Oh.  I didn't know that.  I don't have much interest in mobile phone
> development; I just keep seeing *nix people going on and on (and on
> and on and on) about Android.  I foolishly ASSumed it had something to
> do with *nix.

  When I jumped in and started writing apps, I was really disappointed
I couldn't just compile and run them natively.  It's all open, don't
get me wrong.  But there's a whole slew of
custom-google-glue-and-tweaks, which was disappointing.

-- 
-- Thomas

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Re: Will Android draw developers to Linux? (was: Interesting article, games)

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen
 wrote:
> BUT: I wonder if maybe Ben isn't talking about it being a `gateway drug'
> that draws people to platforms that are *technologically similar*,
> but if he instead is talking about it drawing people to platforms
> that are more, um..., `culturally' related?

  Yah!  That's what I meant!  Exactly!  What he said!  ;-)

-- Ben
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Thomas Charron  wrote:
>  Except for the fact that Andriod is pretty much all written in Java.
>  :-D  And doesn't use X.  And must be run in a VM which isn't the Java
> VM.

  Oh.  I didn't know that.  I don't have much interest in mobile phone
development; I just keep seeing *nix people going on and on (and on
and on and on) about Android.  I foolishly ASSumed it had something to
do with *nix.

-- Ben

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Will Android draw developers to Linux? (was: Interesting article, games)

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

Thomas Charron  writes:
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:
> >
> > Droid seems like the first Android phone that's getting
> > marketing budget, mainstream attention and adoption, and also has an
> > impressive feature set.  While widespread use of Android as a generic
> > phone engine might be good for Linux tech, it's not going to help the
> > desktop market much because it's not going to be attracting
> > application programmers.  But if Droid gathers the kind of developer
> > ecosystem that iPhone has, *that* might be a gateway drug for the
> > Linux desktop.
> 
>   Except for the fact that Andriod is pretty much all written in Java.
>  :-D  And doesn't use X.  And must be run in a VM which isn't the Java
> VM.

So, from everything that I remember reading, it's basically *not Java*,
but rather some weird mutant mostly-similar Java-alike.

But at least it's closer to Java than the underlying OS is to anything
that people call "Linux". Have you read the recent "Android Mythbusters"
discourse? Even the kernel (Linux proper) is significantly mutant.

BUT: I wonder if maybe Ben isn't talking about it being a `gateway drug'
that draws people to platforms that are *technologically similar*,
but if he instead is talking about it drawing people to platforms
that are more, um..., `culturally' related? Almost like how people
buy Macintoshes because they support their iPods better
than Windows PCs would?

-- 
"Don't be afraid to ask (λf.((λx.xx) (λr.f(rr."

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Thomas Charron]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:
>> You mean Android right?  Droid is one model of phone using the Android
>> platform.
>  Yes and no, because...
>> I've read of fragmentation in the Android market.
>  Exactly.  Droid seems like the first Android phone that's getting
> marketing budget, mainstream attention and adoption, and also has an
> impressive feature set.  While widespread use of Android as a generic
> phone engine might be good for Linux tech, it's not going to help the
> desktop market much because it's not going to be attracting
> application programmers.  But if Droid gathers the kind of developer
> ecosystem that iPhone has, *that* might be a gateway drug for the
> Linux desktop.

  Except for the fact that Andriod is pretty much all written in Java.
 :-D  And doesn't use X.  And must be run in a VM which isn't the Java
VM.

-- 
-- Thomas

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Re: Interesting article,

[Alan Johnson]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Tom Buskey  wrote:

> > Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.
>>
>>   Indeed, that's a big part of Apple's strategy.  Design the hardware
>> and the software together, and they'll work well together.  And there
>> is something to be said for that.
>>
>
> And that's one of Apple's prime advantages.
>

Advantage?  Well, for Apple, it is an advantages over MS, but certainly not
for the users.  This goes back to my post about Italian Trains.  Apple has
managed to convince the bulk of their user base that legally limiting the
hardware they can use is some how to the advantage of the user, when really
it is only to the advantage of Apple in that it makes their job easier and
they can charge more based on perceived value.  The user can get the same
"advantages" of hardware limitation from Linux or Windows by only buying
from a well run OEM that knows what hardware works best.  For the slightly
more advanced user, they can limit their hardware choices to those that have
been vetted by the larger community, as I and many on this list do.  Because
of dominance, Windows does not have to work as hard at this, but both
Windows and Apple at least TRY to allow more freedom in hardware for their
users.

The only reason Windows has dominance over Linux is inertia, and the only
reason Apple has dominance over Linux is marketing.  Apple could have
crushed MS by now if they had gone with the GPL attitude instead of picking
BSD so they could keep all their toys to themselves.  They are stomping on
the shoulders of giants rather than standing.

To be clear in limiting my own zealotry, I concede that there are a number a
specific use cases that are better addressed by Windows or Apple.  However,
the vast majority of those are catch-22's like the ones described in the
article that started this thread.  E.g. poor gaming and OEM adoption implies
low market share which implies poor gaming and OEM support.  Both issues are
being whittled away at and also remember that the global market share of
Linux is much greater than in this country and there should be no confusion
about the correlation to the location of the MS and Apple headquarters.
China and India have no national interest in choosing MS or Apple, and they
both have a whole lot more potential users.

This is why Google is getting in to the hardware market with Linux
(Android).  They don't want to sell a few hundred thousand devices in the
US. That's just a testing ground.  They want to sell billions of devices
globally.  MS and Apple will never achieve that with closed technologies
because they could never handle the overhead of maintaining translations,
etc.  The powerful concept is that Google does not even have to make any
money on the hardware, as long as they don't loose much, and users keep
using "google" as a verb. =)

That said, I am completely convinced that the sum of the *nix flavors out
there are surely superior in an over-all sense when compared to the sum of
Windows and Apple options.  (I know, I know; MacOS is a *nix, but let's
split out for reasons mentioned above, shall we?)  The only hold up at this
point is strong enough business, or small set of businesses, getting behind
it to ease the average user into it.  When Dell and/or HP start offering
Linux on the majority of their hardware, that will be the beginning of the
end of closed systems like Windows and Mac.  When Google puts a billion
Android devices in the global market, I won't have any trouble playing
downloaded Amazon video files on my Ubuntu box hooked up to my TV.

For now, I'll have to settle for Redbox over Netflix (since their streaming
player requires Windows even though their set-top box runs Linux) and
playing videos I buy from Amazon through their streaming player on my TV box
while it also functions as commercial grade backup server, carrier grade
firewall/NAT-router/traffic shaper, local/Internet streaming media
server/player, educational tool for my children, smart home server/interface
(if i ever get around to it), and yes, with plenty of selection for my
limited tastes as a recovering gamaholic, a gaming machine.  Oh, woe is me.
;-)
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Tom Buskey  wrote:
>>  I remember that!  Computers with the hottest graphics hardware on
>> the planet, and Doom still did all rendering in software and just
>> blitted bitmaps to X.  :)
>
> Didn't Doom use OpenGL as its engine?  Id is one of the reasons DirectX
> didn't wipe out OpenGL.

  Nope, Doom used a one-off, all-software rendering engine.  Doom ran
on MS-DOS, in the days of Windows 3.x, before 3D hardware acceleration
was really available on the IBM-PC.  Heck, the fact that it used i386
protected mode was something of a big leap forward.  I still remember
the "DOS/4GW" banner from startup.  One of the reasons Doom received
so much praise is how it managed to get so much done on a fairly
craptacular OS and hardware platform.

  I seem to recall once reading that the id Software level designer
ran on SGI's using OpenGL, and that was initially a barrier to
bringing a designer to the consumer market.  Third-parties ended up
building stripped down map editors -- they just drew a top-down line
map instead of visualizing, but they could run on the pee sea.

>> > That mainstream OS is probably the iPhone OS, not MacOSX.
>>
>>  I wonder, if Droid takes off like iPhone did, will that bring more
>> interest to Linux?
>
> You mean Android right?  Droid is one model of phone using the Android
> platform.

  Yes and no, because...

> I've read of fragmentation in the Android market.

  Exactly.  Droid seems like the first Android phone that's getting
marketing budget, mainstream attention and adoption, and also has an
impressive feature set.  While widespread use of Android as a generic
phone engine might be good for Linux tech, it's not going to help the
desktop market much because it's not going to be attracting
application programmers.  But if Droid gathers the kind of developer
ecosystem that iPhone has, *that* might be a gateway drug for the
Linux desktop.

-- Ben

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Tom Buskey]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Tom Buskey  wrote:
> > I've played Doom on SGI Irix FWIW.  Doom was everywhere.
>
>   I remember that!  Computers with the hottest graphics hardware on
> the planet, and Doom still did all rendering in software and just
> blitted bitmaps to X.  :)
>

Didn't Doom use OpenGL as its engine?  Id is one of the reasons DirectX
didn't wipe out OpenGL.


>
> > That mainstream OS is probably the iPhone OS, not MacOSX.
>
>   I wonder, if Droid takes off like iPhone did, will that bring more
> interest to Linux?
>
>
You mean Android right?  Droid is one model of phone using the Android
platform.

I've read of fragmentation in the Android market.  If developers can't
depend on a consistant sound/graphics/accelerometer, they're not going to
develop for it.  How many games are on WINCE/Windows Mobile which has a
similar problem?
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Benjamin Scott]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Tom Buskey  wrote:
> I've played Doom on SGI Irix FWIW.  Doom was everywhere.

  I remember that!  Computers with the hottest graphics hardware on
the planet, and Doom still did all rendering in software and just
blitted bitmaps to X.  :)

> That mainstream OS is probably the iPhone OS, not MacOSX.

  I wonder, if Droid takes off like iPhone did, will that bring more
interest to Linux?

-- Ben

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Tom Buskey]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Ben Eisenbraun  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 06:12:53PM -0500, Star wrote:
> > There have been a couple of great releases specifically targeting Linux
> > as a platform.  I'm thinking of Unreal, EVE, and Farcry (i think?)
>
> There have been some.  I remember playing Tribes 2 during lunch on the
> linux workstations in the NOC.  Id has historically been good about
> releasing its games for Linux, but then the driver problem arises.  Even
> with the binary Nvidia driver, you can expect a 25-50% drop in frame rate
> on the same hardware switching between linux and Windows.
>

I've played Doom on SGI Irix FWIW.  Doom was everywhere.


>
> There's just not enough of a market for linux games for the publishers to
> port their games and for the hardware manufacturers to spend time tuning
> their drivers for linux.
>
>
Don't most publishers focus on the consoles?  Playstation, Xbox, Wii, DS,
PSP and iPhone?  The end platform is consistant and not changing.

Anyway, I think if Apple makes it as a gaming platform, it will be because
> they made it as a mainstream OS first.  (Or possibly because they used the
> mobile gaming arena as the fulcrum upon which they levered game developers
> on to OS X.)
>
>
That mainstream OS is probably the iPhone OS, not MacOSX.
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Re: Interesting article,

[Tom Buskey]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Tom Buskey  wrote:
> >> Freedom, and low cost, and robustness, and
> >> security, and choice, and all that good stuff.
> >
> > s/Linux/MacOSX/
>
>  Yes and no.  MacOS X certainly has a number of selling points,
> several of which it shares with Linux, others which are unique.  Apple
> has done a very nice job with human factors engineering, OS features,
> their bundled applications.  Security is pretty good and certainly the
> OS itself is robust.
>
>  But low cost?  Freedom?  You never really own a Mac -- you're just
> renting it from Steve Jobs.  As someone said to me recently, "There
> can be more than one evil empire."
>
>
I don't disagree :-)  My point was with zealotry and converting people from
windows to another platform.  The layman will have similar objections in
switching to Linux or MacOSX.  Linux has the Freedom argument in addition.

Apple is more of a monopoly then Microsoft IMO.



> > Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.
>
>   Indeed, that's a big part of Apple's strategy.  Design the hardware
> and the software together, and they'll work well together.  And there
> is something to be said for that.
>

And that's one of Apple's prime advantages.
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[OT] Re: Interesting article, games and ugly pants

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

>ugly pants carrying Windows laptops around.

I must admit I never related ugly pants with Windows laptops.

I sense a follow-up study, but firstwhat is the definition of "ugly
pants"?

md

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Ben Eisenbraun]

On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 06:12:53PM -0500, Star wrote:
> There have been a couple of great releases specifically targeting Linux
> as a platform.  I'm thinking of Unreal, EVE, and Farcry (i think?)

There have been some.  I remember playing Tribes 2 during lunch on the
linux workstations in the NOC.  Id has historically been good about
releasing its games for Linux, but then the driver problem arises.  Even
with the binary Nvidia driver, you can expect a 25-50% drop in frame rate
on the same hardware switching between linux and Windows.

There's just not enough of a market for linux games for the publishers to
port their games and for the hardware manufacturers to spend time tuning
their drivers for linux.

As Ben pointed out, it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem.  Apple might
be getting over the hump a bit, since the hot rumor is that Valve is
porting Steam to OS X.  OS X is supposedly up to about 11% market share in
North America: http://blog.quantcast.com/quantcast/2010/02/os-share.html

I wonder if iPhone/iTouch game development is driving game development on
OS X.

I was at Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference in May 2007 when the iPhone
application development plan was "build web apps".  It was your standard
Apple crowd: education, design-oriented businesses, some scientists, indie
developers and a sprinkling of IT guys that worked in those fields.  Lots
of jeans and tie dye, long hair and Penny Arcade tee-shirts.  In 5 days, I
saw 3 non-Apple laptops.

The 2008 WWDC had a totally different feel.  The official iPhone SDK had
been announced, and I bet a third of the attendees went solely for the
iPhone development sessions.  There were a ton of guys wearing button down
shirts and ugly pants carrying Windows laptops around.  I stopped counting
after a few hundred.  It was an odd juxtaposition with the traditional Apple
crowd.

Anyway, I think if Apple makes it as a gaming platform, it will be because
they made it as a mainstream OS first.  (Or possibly because they used the
mobile gaming arena as the fulcrum upon which they levered game developers
on to OS X.)

-ben

--
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Benjamin Scott]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen
 wrote:
> Oh, not this again--half of those arrows aren't even pointing
> to the right places

  One again, spectacularly missing the point.

  Say a programmer is used to MS Windows, where despite your flow
chart, it's all DirectSound or whatever Microsoft is calling their
object library this week (NET, I guess).  They are thinking about
Linux, so they look into how to play sound on Linux.  And they
discover the mess that Linux audio is.

  Should they use SDML, gstreamer, Jack, PulseAudio, ESound, ARTS,
NAS, ALSA, OSS, or who-knows-what-else?  The answer depends on what
distro you're using, what release you're using, what *fskcing window
manager* you're using, and likely whatever some jerk like me on a
mailing list says.

  They run away screaming.

  It's not a popularity contest.  Drawing competing diagrams doesn't
win anything.  We're still loosing that potential programmer.

  If you're rather worry about the accuracy of that flowchart than
worry about that programmer, by all means, feel free.

-- Ben
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

>... and I was trying to remember where I saw an analogous off-the-cuff
>flowchart for Windows. I just found it:


>http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vLES3KKBdaM/Sjsptq1kkCI/AGU/yITp1qKuHOU/s1600-h/windowsaudio.png


Yes, and it is true that Windows probably has as much a mess in this as
"Linux" doesBUT

While Microsoft's mess changes from release to release, the "Linux mess"
changes in two dimentions:

Release by release

AND

Distro by distro

and since the distros change at a non-uniform rate and path...

..the "picture" of Linux audio can not even be drawn unless you invoke
the fifth dimension (and I am not talking about the music group).

md

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

Joshua Judson Rosen  writes:
>
> Benjamin Scott  writes:
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Star  wrote:
> > > Then there's the Sound integration...  You've got Pulse over
> > > here, eSound on that guy, he's playing with ALSA, and OSS ...
> > 
> > http://www.trilug.org/~crimsun/linuxaudio.png
> 
> Oh, not this again--half of those arrows aren't even pointing
> to the right places
> 
> And the lines that *do* actually connect the right things
> still convey ~zero information--they just indicate that there's
> `some sort of directional relationship'. Awesome.
> 
> Worst. Flowchart. Ever.

... and I was trying to remember where I saw an analogous off-the-cuff
flowchart for Windows. I just found it:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vLES3KKBdaM/Sjsptq1kkCI/AGU/yITp1qKuHOU/s1600-h/windowsaudio.png

-- 
"Don't be afraid to ask (λf.((λx.xx) (λr.f(rr."

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

Benjamin Scott  writes:
>
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Star  wrote:
> > Then there's the Sound integration...  You've got Pulse over
> > here, eSound on that guy, he's playing with ALSA, and OSS ...
> 
> http://www.trilug.org/~crimsun/linuxaudio.png

Oh, not this again--half of those arrows aren't even pointing
to the right places

And the lines that *do* actually connect the right things
still convey ~zero information--they just indicate that there's
`some sort of directional relationship'. Awesome.

Worst. Flowchart. Ever.

-- 
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Benjamin Scott]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Star  wrote:
> There have been a couple of great releases specifically targeting
> Linux as a platform.  I'm thinking of Unreal, EVE, and Farcry (i
> think?)

  Again, a few counter-examples does not mean the overall trend is untrue.  :)

> With all of the differing distros, and all of the different ways to
> install software (without compiling) it's hard for any releasing
> company to package for "Linux" as a whole.

  That's a good point.  There are technical challenges as well as business ones.

  The fact that the Ubuntu, Fedora, GNOME, and KDE communities all
seem to love reinventing the wheel doesn't help.  It's bad enough that
they're so keen to throw out 25 years of Unix history, but they also
throw out their own stuff with depressing regularity, saying "This
time for sure!" with the latest replacements.  It's real hard to build
anything when you keep ripping down the foundation.

> Then there's the Sound integration...  You've got Pulse over
> here, eSound on that guy, he's playing with ALSA, and OSS ...

http://www.trilug.org/~crimsun/linuxaudio.png

-- Ben

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Apple and Italian trains (was Re: Interesting article,)

[Alan Johnson]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:

>  But low cost?  Freedom?  You never really own a Mac -- you're just
> renting it from Steve Jobs.  As someone said to me recently, "There
> can be more than one evil empire."
>

 http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp

I think this is a beautiful analogy for Apple and Jobs, if a bit
hyperbolic.  As the article says, "No, thanks.  I'd rather walk."
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Star]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Benjamin Scott  wrote:
>  There is definitely a chicken-and-egg problem when it comes to games
> on Linux.  Game publishers don't target Linux because there are few

There have been a couple of great releases specifically targeting
Linux as a platform.  I'm thinking of Unreal, EVE, and Farcry (i
think?)

It's only a couple of examples, but as I recall, when Unreal and
Unreal Tournament released, they were pretty solid and quite popular.
The lag in releases was minimal from the Windows versions.  They even
had Tux on the box, proudly stating that it ran on Linux.  However, it
was also much harder to install.  Copy what where?  run what as root?
Where's my Menu entry?!

With all of the differing distros, and all of the different ways to
install software (without compiling) it's hard for any releasing
company to package for "Linux" as a whole.  They should just go the
way that Oracle went and say that they're going to support
Fedora/Redhat, or Ubuntu/Debian, but they didn't and it only added to
the frustration.  Then there's the Sound integration...  You've got
Pulse over here, eSound on that guy, he's playing with ALSA, and OSS
keeps asking for another can of Coke...

$0.02

~ *

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Benjamin Scott]

  There is definitely a chicken-and-egg problem when it comes to games
on Linux.  Game publishers don't target Linux because there are few
gamer customers running Linux.  Gamer people don't run Linux because
there are few publishers targeting Linux.

  (I don't have an answer.)

-- Ben
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Re: Interesting article,

[Benjamin Scott]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Tom Buskey  wrote:
>> Freedom, and low cost, and robustness, and
>> security, and choice, and all that good stuff.
>
> s/Linux/MacOSX/

  Yes and no.  MacOS X certainly has a number of selling points,
several of which it shares with Linux, others which are unique.  Apple
has done a very nice job with human factors engineering, OS features,
their bundled applications.  Security is pretty good and certainly the
OS itself is robust.

  But low cost?  Freedom?  You never really own a Mac -- you're just
renting it from Steve Jobs.  As someone said to me recently, "There
can be more than one evil empire."

> Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.

  Indeed, that's a big part of Apple's strategy.  Design the hardware
and the software together, and they'll work well together.  And there
is something to be said for that.

-- Ben
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Kevin D. Clark]

Lori Nagel writes:

> 1) User interfaces tend to be poor and over compilcated, with a
> bunch of skills and stats taking up the whole screen in a way you
> can't close as opposed to the whole screen being immersed in the
> game.

This is a valid complaint.  The reason for this is probably because
these games tend to be designed by engineers rather than people who
are experts at human/computer interaction.

It is very hard to get human/computer interaction stuff right, but
fantastically easy to get this stuff wrong.

Regards,

--kevin
-- 
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 From now on boys this iron boat's your home
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Re: Interesting article, games

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

Lori,

A good list of "game" issues.

Now add the fact that most Linux people are:

o "Open Source" (and typically games aren't)
o quite a few don't believe in paying for anything (and game makers have
to eat)
o game making is more of a science combined with art these daysfew
people would be happy playing "Hunt the Wumpus"
o game players try Linux, don't find the games they want, and go back to
Windows, never creating the pool large enough to drive game creation
(and where they are used to paying for software)

md

P.S. I know, some fairly gross observations, but based on reality.

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Re: Interesting article, games

[Lori Nagel]

I noticed games was at the top of the list again (unsurprisingly) and that of 
course zealotry isn't going to convert most people. The thing is though that 
windows does not nessarly run old games very well either.  

I sometimes compare Linux games  that compile and run on my system to old 
windows games from say, the windows 95 era and see several key differences in 
game play and user interface that explain very well why there is such a gap.

1) User interfaces tend to be poor and over compilcated, with a bunch of skills 
and stats taking up the whole screen in a way you can't close as opposed to the 
whole screen being immersed in the game. 
2) User interfaces tend to do something like use the default gnome widgets or 
other boring things.


3) Game play  consists of several "hard" levels that are more difficult than 
what most gamers are used to. A lot of the fun in playing a game isn't nessarly 
dying over and over again, but rather being able to make some progress in the 
game. Many gamers see games more like interactive movies or choose your own 
adventure books rather than something where they have to reapeat the same plot 
over and over again to try and advance. 
4) Second note on game play, unfinished levels that are not well designed do 
not add much.
5) some games are okay, but they are really too short and too  much like a demo 
rather than a complete game. 
6) lack of games in general
7) games that either won't compile or won't run due to things such as library 
dependancies or 3d video card drivers.

I'm probably expecting too much out of most linux zealots to  do something as 
boring or "stupid" as learning old librareis like x11 or actually code 
reasonable game design ideas. They tend to think they are beyond such things 
and end up writing games that have the seven above mentioned problems while 
saying what an idiot I am for  not being a better programmer with good code or 
anatomically acurate drawings when most people really want cartoon exagerated 
drawings. 




- Original Message 
From: Benjamin Scott 
To: Greater NH Linux User Group 
Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 12:36:54 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting article,

  For the TL;DR crowd: Zealotry does not help the cause.  It hurts.

  Reality check time.  I suggest zealots take note.  The way you and I
think is not how most mainstream people think.  If you insist on
closing your eyes to how the people complaining see things, don't be
surprised when they continue to complain and just get pissed off.

  If you tell them someone all their concerns about Linux are moot,
they may *believe you*.  That sets up false expectations.  Then they
try Linux and discover it *isn't* just like MS Windows.  It's better
in many ways, worse in some others.  But you told them their concerns
were a non-issue, when it turns out they still matter.  At best, they
will feel let down.  At worst, they will go back to Windows, because
they will feel Linux lies about what it can deliver.

  When I promote Linux, I always make sure I make it clear that like
is not all roses and sunshine.  I disclose the weaknesses.  But I also
sell the strengths.  Freedom, and low cost, and robustness, and
security, and choice, and all that good stuff.  It's then up to the
listener to decide if they want to give it a try, making a
well-informed decision.

  Since no long message about computer politics is complete without a
car analogy: I didn't buy a Subaru Impreza because I thought it was a
*perfect* car.  I bought one because I thought it was the best choice
for what I wanted.

  Specific points follow:

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Brian Chabot  wrote:
> No gaming support - Mandriva has an entire product line devoted to
> gaming, but the gaming developers didn't work with it and the end users
> didn't try it out.  It was subsequently dropped.

  Are you serious?  I hate to break it to you, but if it was dropped,
then that still counts as not having it.

  What people mean when they say this is that they can't go into a
store and pick up a box for World of Warcraft or Call of Duty or
whatever, and find "Linux" listed on the side of the box as supported.
They don't care about some French company nobody has every heard
of[1] that once tried to do something with gaming, but failed.

[1] = This is is called "hyperbole".

> Little/no OEM support - Mandriva has had an OEM certification program
> for years.

  Irrelvant.  What matters is who and how many OEMs are supporting
Linux.  Nobody cares if the distro has an OEM certification program if
none of the OEMs are actually using it.

  Now, some good progress has been made here.  The big OEMs are
starting to do actual work with Linux.  Even if it's just to leverage
against Microsoft, it still counts.  But it's still rather meager in
comparison to what's available for MS Windows.

Re: Interesting article,

[Alan Johnson]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Benjamin Scott wrote:

>  For the TL;DR crowd: Zealotry does not help the cause.  It hurts.
>
>  Reality check time.  I suggest zealots take note.  The way you and I
> think is not how most mainstream people think.  If you insist on
> closing your eyes to how the people complaining see things, don't be
> surprised when they continue to complain and just get pissed off.
>
>  If you tell them someone all their concerns about Linux are moot,
> they may *believe you*.  That sets up false expectations.  Then they
> try Linux and discover it *isn't* just like MS Windows.  It's better
> in many ways, worse in some others.  But you told them their concerns
> were a non-issue, when it turns out they still matter.  At best, they
> will feel let down.  At worst, they will go back to Windows, because
> they will feel Linux lies about what it can deliver.


The GPL explicitly and exclusively empowers zealotry.  Windows and Mac
EULA's disallow it. So your concerns over zealotry are a non-issue. I mean,
you just have to look at how much Linux adoption can be attributed to
zealotry already!  Anyone with a superior attitude will tell you that they
have gotten more friends with vinegar than with honey.  Despite common myth,
national taste tests have proven that vinegar is preferred over honey by a
2/3rds majority and that 14.6% of all statistics are completely made up.  If
you don't agree, then you are in the minority and are therefore of no use to
the collective, and therefore your concerns are a non-issue, pending
assimilation.  I have used "therefore" twice in once sentence and therefore
am undisputiable right, therefore.

Besides, isn't attacking zealotry as wholly inferior... an act of zealotry
itself?

--Alan "just fanning the flames" Johnson
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Re: Interesting article,

[Thomas Charron]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Brian Chabot  wrote:
> I do not agree with the author of the article either.
>
> His arguments seem only based on a limited experience of what Linux has
> to offer.

  They aren't his arguments.

  "So, what I’ve done here is gone through the Linux-related emails
I’ve received over the past few months and distilled the feedback down
into the most common reasons why people end up feeling that Linux
sucks."

  Those are the people who have picked it up, tried to use it, and
send emails stating that they, the end users, think it sucks.  :-D

-- 
-- Thomas

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Re: Interesting article,

[Thomas Charron]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Chris  wrote:
> I don't agree with all of it, but it does put a few things in perspective.
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=7532&tag=nl.e539
> Chris

  It's hard to say you don't agree with other users observations.
Note, he's not the one the statements are coming from.  He's just
repeating them back.

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-- Thomas
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Re: Interesting article,

[Tom Buskey]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Benjamin Scott wrote:

>  For the TL;DR crowd: Zealotry does not help the cause.  It hurts.
>
>  Reality check time.  I suggest zealots take note.  The way you and I
> think is not how most mainstream people think.  If you insist on
> closing your eyes to how the people complaining see things, don't be
> surprised when they continue to complain and just get pissed off.
>
>  If you tell them someone all their concerns about Linux are moot,
> they may *believe you*.  That sets up false expectations.  Then they
> try Linux and discover it *isn't* just like MS Windows.  It's better
> in many ways, worse in some others.  But you told them their concerns
> were a non-issue, when it turns out they still matter.  At best, they
> will feel let down.  At worst, they will go back to Windows, because
> they will feel Linux lies about what it can deliver.
>
>  When I promote Linux, I always make sure I make it clear that like
> is not all roses and sunshine.  I disclose the weaknesses.  But I also
> sell the strengths.  Freedom, and low cost, and robustness, and
> security, and choice, and all that good stuff.  It's then up to the
> listener to decide if they want to give it a try, making a
> well-informed decision.
>

s/Linux/MacOSX/

Well, except MacOSX has specific hardware.  Buy it and anything else sold at
the  Apple Store and it will work.  If it doesn't, the nice people there
will help fix it.

Go to the MegaStore for a printer/keyboard/webcam/software and it might work
if it says it will on the package.  The store people above might help if it
doesn't.

Install MacOSX on a Dell and you're doing Hackintosh.  You deserve what you
get and are violating the EULA on MacOSX.  You may even be breaking the law.
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Re: Interesting article,

[Jon 'maddog' Hall]

I will play the Devil's advocate here:

>No gaming support - Mandriva has an entire product line devoted to
>gaming, but the gaming developers didn't work with it and the end users
>didn't try it out.  It was subsequently dropped.

Yes, and "It was subsequently dropped" is the issue.  Linux just does
not have a big enough market on the desktop to attract both the
developers and the customers.  And even if a game developer ports their
game one time, they typically do not put out updates like they do for
Windows, so the Linux version typically lags behind.

Yes, there are exceptions, but die-hard gamers want to play the latest
games their friends have, not spend their time explaining why Linux does
not have them.

>Little/no OEM support - Mandriva has had an OEM certification program
>for years.

Yes, but how many OEMs put Mandriva on their systems and laptops?  How
many stores carried those pre-installed Mandriva systems?

>No iPod support - Amarok.  Right out of the box.

Don't have an iPod, so I can not comment.

>No migration tool - Mandriva has has a built-in migration tool for
>quite some time now - Transfugdrake - right in the System area of the
>control center.

Does it go in and extract all your email, contacts and everything from
your Microsoft Exchange system and set it up for you?  Some of these
answers he got sound as if they are from "home users" and some from
"enterprise users".

>Driver/hardware confusion - For 90% of hardware out there, you don't
>need it.  "Also, the fact that there’s no such thing as a “works with
>Linux” logo..."  Yes, there is.  I have a bunch of stickers with the
>one I designed and I'm sure there are others.

I think he is talking about having boxes from Creative Labs, ATI,
Nvidea, etc. that have something like the Windows logo on them, or
under "System Requirements" in product specifications having "Linux
Version 2.6.31 - Intel - 32 bit", or by having the device driver
included on the CD-ROM in the box.

There was an attempt years ago to have a "Linux Hardware Certification
Program" by a friend of mine through the company Linuxcare, but it (and
Linuxcare) tanked.  Maybe it is time to try again.

>Free tech support dries up - http://www.mandrivausers.org

Yes, I agree that "Free Tech Support" is still out there via the
Internet.  I think what he is talking about is more along the lines of a
friend coming over to help you get installedthen you calling the
friend to come over and help you set up your networking, then you
calling the (same) friend to come over and help you do your back
up...and after a while your friend does not return your calls any more
because they are trying to find a job that will help them pay their
mortgage.

Since there are roughly nine times as many windows users, you get to
spread your "Free Tech Support" needs to nine times as many friends.

>Confusion about distro differences - OK, I'll give him that one.

It is more like "ten" instead of just "one".  One of most prevalent
questions out there"Which distro is right for me?"

If I am not trying to pay my mortgage, I may even give them a long and
detailed answerbut most of the time I just say "Ubuntu" or "Fedora"
or "OpenSUSE"maybe now I will add "Mandriva".

md

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Re: Interesting article,

[Benjamin Scott]

  For the TL;DR crowd: Zealotry does not help the cause.  It hurts.

  Reality check time.  I suggest zealots take note.  The way you and I
think is not how most mainstream people think.  If you insist on
closing your eyes to how the people complaining see things, don't be
surprised when they continue to complain and just get pissed off.

  If you tell them someone all their concerns about Linux are moot,
they may *believe you*.  That sets up false expectations.  Then they
try Linux and discover it *isn't* just like MS Windows.  It's better
in many ways, worse in some others.  But you told them their concerns
were a non-issue, when it turns out they still matter.  At best, they
will feel let down.  At worst, they will go back to Windows, because
they will feel Linux lies about what it can deliver.

  When I promote Linux, I always make sure I make it clear that like
is not all roses and sunshine.  I disclose the weaknesses.  But I also
sell the strengths.  Freedom, and low cost, and robustness, and
security, and choice, and all that good stuff.  It's then up to the
listener to decide if they want to give it a try, making a
well-informed decision.

  Since no long message about computer politics is complete without a
car analogy: I didn't buy a Subaru Impreza because I thought it was a
*perfect* car.  I bought one because I thought it was the best choice
for what I wanted.

  Specific points follow:

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Brian Chabot  wrote:
> No gaming support - Mandriva has an entire product line devoted to
> gaming, but the gaming developers didn't work with it and the end users
> didn't try it out.  It was subsequently dropped.

  Are you serious?  I hate to break it to you, but if it was dropped,
then that still counts as not having it.

  What people mean when they say this is that they can't go into a
store and pick up a box for World of Warcraft or Call of Duty or
whatever, and find "Linux" listed on the side of the box as supported.
 They don't care about some French company nobody has every heard
of[1] that once tried to do something with gaming, but failed.

[1] = This is is called "hyperbole".

> Little/no OEM support - Mandriva has had an OEM certification program
> for years.

  Irrelvant.  What matters is who and how many OEMs are supporting
Linux.  Nobody cares if the distro has an OEM certification program if
none of the OEMs are actually using it.

  Now, some good progress has been made here.  The big OEMs are
starting to do actual work with Linux.  Even if it's just to leverage
against Microsoft, it still counts.  But it's still rather meager in
comparison to what's available for MS Windows.

  For example, Dell offers Linux pre-installed on some computers, but
their support for what they're installing is practically non-existent.
 They basically refer you to Canonical/Red Hat.  (Dell's server Linux
support is a lot more useful.)

  For a home user, this can be a big deal.  However, as more and more
OEMs move to a pay-for-support model for anything beyond warranty
component replacement and OS re-installation, it may become less of a
distinction.  Whether you're paying Dell to support your MS Windows
home PC or paying Canonical to support your Linux home PC, you're
paying for support.

  So Linux may achieve support parity not by getting better support,
but instead because Windows is trending towards worse support.

  I also still hold out some small hope for a resurgence in local
small system builders.  They can provide a personal touch that big
companies will never be able to, and they're generally a lot more open
to supporting Linux.  However, quality stuff costs more, and most
people still shop based on price alone.  As long as Best Buy can make
great profit selling computer-shaped boxes of poop, it's going to be
tough for small system builders to compete.

> No migration tool - Mandriva has has a built-in migration tool for quite
> some time now - Transfugdrake - right in the System area of the control
> center.

  Yah, Ubuntu has one, too.  Either his information is out-of-date, or
we simply misunderstand what he's asking for.  I suspect the former.

> Free tech support dries up - http://www.mandrivausers.org

People referring to this generally mean a local peer group that
can provide hands-on assistance, not web forums.  Everybody knows
somebody who knows enough about MS Windows to at least install
software and configure an Internet connection.  It's harder to find
Linux people.  Not impossible -- look at this group! -- but it's not
the easy pickings that MS Windows has.  Only time and adoption will
change this.

  I'm incredulous about his claim that Mac's no longer have this
problem, though.  I don't think their market penetration is *that*
much bigger than Linux.

> Driver/hardware confusion - For 90% of hardware out there, you don't
> need it.

  I would dispute your claim.  A lot of popular hardware still doesn't
work well with Linux, especially sound, wireless

Re: Interesting article,

[Brian Chabot]

Chris wrote:
> I don't agree with all of it, but it does put a few things in perspective.
> 
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=7532&tag=nl.e539

I do not agree with the author of the article either.

His arguments seem only based on a limited experience of what Linux has
to offer.

I know that Mandriva Linux, even its free version has already overcome
the hurdles he mentions long ago:

No gaming support - Mandriva has an entire product line devoted to
gaming, but the gaming developers didn't work with it and the end users
didn't try it out.  It was subsequently dropped.

Little/no OEM support - Mandriva has had an OEM certification program
for years.

No iPod support - Amarok.  Right out of the box.

No migration tool - Mandriva has has a built-in migration tool for quite
some time now - Transfugdrake - right in the System area of the control
center.

Driver/hardware confusion - For 90% of hardware out there, you don't
need it.  "Also, the fact that there’s no such thing as a “works with
Linux” logo..."  Yes, there is.  I have a bunch of stickers with the one
I designed and I'm sure there are others.

Free tech support dries up - http://www.mandrivausers.org

Confusion about distro differences - OK, I'll give him that one.


Brian
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Interesting article,

[Chris]

I don't agree with all of it, but it does put a few things in perspective.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=7532&tag=nl.e539

Chris


-- 
IBA #15631
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Interesting article RH buys some Netscape goodies.

[Jason]

http://www.vnunet.com/news/1158498

Thought you all might be interested.

Jason Kern 

www.KernBuilt.com
603.823.5150
 
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