Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, 01 Aug 2023 22:39:34 -0400 Richard wrote: > > the amendment would not require anyone to participate; but would suggest > it > > strongly, by giving distro maintainers a greater stake in the decision > making > > process > > I don't know what this is about. Would you please show it? i will post them individually, as they address three distinct FSDG sections; though they are all complementary the statement above is referring specifically to the "Being a Good Neighbor" section
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > the amendment would not require anyone to participate; but would suggest it > strongly, by giving distro maintainers a greater stake in the decision making > process I don't know what this is about. Would you please show it? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > i dont believe that maintainers need such optional suggestions, > nor care much for politicizing their projects (and care less to be > "urged" to do so) - that is probably a large part of why most do > not read this mailing list, and probably why riccardo objected so > loudly I'm not convinced by any of that speculation. Making a strong and clear specific recommendation is helpful and it doesn't actuall impose on anyone, so it is often good to do. But maybe there should be a general policy too, which this would be an example of. I think the best way to develop a general policy in a new area is to work out answers for some specific cases. Then we can generalize from those. > because vague and specific are opposites - it loses cohesion to mix them They are complementary -- we need them both. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 19:23:54 -0400 Richard wrote: > - the FSDG has never done anything like that > > That won't stop us! i was not suggesting that as an flaw - i was suggesting that as a virtue - it does not have warnings or optional suggestions now - it has only criteria - only "the distro must"s and "the distro should"s - nothing like "you could, but only if you want to" i dont believe that maintainers need such optional suggestions, nor care much for politicizing their projects (and care less to be "urged" to do so) - that is probably a large part of why most do not read this mailing list, and probably why riccardo objected so loudly of course, distros can do anything optional, if they want to - that should go without saying - the most i would do about this "urge", would be to send an email to each distro, offering the suggestion and rationale for it, _one_ time - or maybe establish a new wiki page for incoming distros to read some suggestions for how to portray software freedom (if they want to)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 04:10:23 +0200 Denis wrote: > It's not. There is the example of phoronix-test-suite that was accepted > in 2 FSDG distributions (Parabola and Guix) but rejected in the FSD > because it used a repository that contained nonfree tests. > > Parabola and Guix removed or blocked the nonfree tests, but as this > entry shows, the FSD deals with upstream, not distributions > modifications, even if it has a warning for some wine packages that > suggest nonfree fonts with it. that is exactly where i see them meeting - the FSD rejected it for some reason "A", but probably did not document "A" - then distros patched it for the same reason "A", and documented the process and rationale - why on earth would we not want to preserve and share those evaluations before others re-do it on their own > So it's better to stick to the topic here. i agree - just saying - i think we could make that work - we actually tried once
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 04:11:44 +0200 Denis wrote: > Anyway there are still some differences that doesn't enable to use the > FSD like that yet. im not aware of any; but that would be a good discussion to have - i see them as very well-aligned with significant overlap - maybe only some minor adjustments would be needed to make them meet squarely
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 04:16:40 +0200 Denis wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 22:02:53 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > > I'm not sure, we probably need to promote this list to FSDG > > > distributions contributors in general to make sure that people are > > > here. > > > > I'd like to have the people directly involved on this list, plus > > a few experts like you. NOT to get a lot of people -- it would > > mean more unhelptul arguments. > I had in mind FSDG distributions maintainers. In Parabola and Guix that > would mean potentially everybody that can push packages. > > They often have specific responsibilities like to read/suscribe to > certain mailing lists for instance. > > So telling them that this list do exist and what is it for, and that we > would need at least 1 person per distribution (but not necessarily > everybody) to keep an eye on the list would be useful I think. yes - this has been discussed often over the years - one of the amendments drafted addresses this concern directly - not many are willing to participate now; but hopefully that can change somehow the amendment would not require anyone to participate; but would suggest it strongly, by giving distro maintainers a greater stake in the decision making process
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > For instance it turned out that what to do with ScummVM is not > necessarily the same from what to do in general for programs like VMs > that run other programs like games when there is no 100% free software > use case for the "VM". They are not _necessarily_ the same a prioi, I agree. If there is an emulator (or whatever) that we know will only run nonfree softwsre, we _might_ want to make a rule not to include it in free distros. But not necessarily. It would not be out of the question to use just an "urge" as I've chosen for ScummVM. After all, this is not a matter of including nonfree software in the distro. It is a possible negative influence that works against our principles, but it is not outright against them. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > you were not suggesting to change the criteria - you were suggesting to post > some sort of warning, which distros could decide to heed optionally - there > is no place to put such a warning We can make one. For instance, in the criteria page. - the FSDG has never done anything like that That won't stop us! -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I know the rule doesn't exist. Here I was talking about how this text > would/could likely be perceived by some users and contributors and > indirectly affect distributions. > If we say something and that people don't get what we mean and act on > it, then it has some impact, so discussing that impact as well is not > out of topic, especially when most people will not have this thread. We can work on the text so that this sort of problem does not occur. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 22:06:55 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > Here it would not be seen as infringing on individual freedom but > > rather on the collective freedom to organize through FSDG > > distributions to make these use cases work with 100% free > > software. > > There are two big misunderstandings there. > > 1. The FSDG rules have NO effect on anyone's freedom to make a distro. > They only determine what the FSF will _say_ about that distro. > > Whatever our policies may be for that, they do not affect anyone's > freedom. > > 2. We're not talking about making a _rule_ against including ScummVM. > > Remember, a few weeks ago I concluded that it is better simply to > _urge_ free distros not to include ScummVM -- and not make it a > _rule_. > > That _urging statement_ will not even affect whether a distro can get > our endorsement. > > So this concern is simply not real. > > > So here we are only discussing this topic because it has > > (potentially indirect) consequences on the FSDG distributions. > > With all due respect, I think that concern is based on the two > misunderstandings I stated above -- it does not really exist. I know the rule doesn't exist. Here I was talking about how this text would/could likely be perceived by some users and contributors and indirectly affect distributions. If we say something and that people don't get what we mean and act on it, then it has some impact, so discussing that impact as well is not out of topic, especially when most people will not have this thread. You gave some example of text before (without the context in which they would be put in) so it's not done in a way that is crystal clear (to make sure people understand that it's an advise and that's all), it could have a big potential for misunderstanding. And while it expresses your opinion, it's the distributions that would have to deal with the consequences of that text. But if the text or its context is made crystal clear, in order to make sure that people that didn't follow this discussion understand what it means exactly, then it would minimize even more its collateral damage, so the concern I'm talking about would be minimal. Though it would still show in practice that there are some disagreements about how to do things. Also note that with (1), while I don't know any concerns with the FSDG itself that cannot be accommodated by distributions by adding rules on top of the FSDG, but the FSDG do affect distributions that follow it in a big way, and if distributions are not happy with the FSDG and can't fix their concern though some other way, they can either stop following the FSDG completely or comply nevertheless. And because knowledge is sticky (it tends to stay where it is, not everybody is up to date on everything, do understand all aspects of the FSDG), if the concern is valid (I don't know any valid concerns so far but the future isn't set), the distribution quitting would probably have a hard time exiting the FSDG when its user base, occasional contributors, etc, expect to be FSDG compliant. A realistic example would be if the advise you propose would be made a rule for instance. In this case it would probably create crisis in one or more distributions. Other option would be to either comply nevertheless or try to not follow it and try to get away with it. So it would be better for the distributions not to be in this situation (being in disagreement with the FSDG) at all. So this is also why I care a lot about the FSDG: it has real impact on distributions, users, and strategies within the free software movement at large. But here, all these concerns are gone if the distributions actually agree with the FSDG. But distributions can also be wrong, especially if people involved that don't agree with the FSDG don't dedicate time to think about the FSDG, and don't foresee enough of the consequences of the change they would like to get in. I can observe that in practice in another certification for French hosters (CHATONS) where people discuss the modification of the criteria (for instance to remove the requirement for free software) but some of the proponents of that don't foresee some important negative consequences about that. So people involved in doing things can also be wrong. Though note that I've not been deeply involved in these CHATONS discussions due to the lack of time. So in this mail or the previous one, I'm not advocating for anything with regard to the FSDG, I'm just stating that it's important and has real impact on the distributions and that just stopping to follow the FSDG is not necessarily that easy. But that is also not necessarily a bad thing, it all depends on the details. And that needs to be taken into account as I think distributions and users rightly perceive it in this way. Denis. pgp9HE7P6Mx6y.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Here it would not be seen as infringing on individual freedom but > rather on the collective freedom to organize through FSDG distributions > to make these use cases work with 100% free software. There are two big misunderstandings there. 1. The FSDG rules have NO effect on anyone's freedom to make a distro. They only determine what the FSF will _say_ about that distro. Whatever our policies may be for that, they do not affect anyone's freedom. 2. We're not talking about making a _rule_ against including ScummVM. Remember, a few weeks ago I concluded that it is better simply to _urge_ free distros not to include ScummVM -- and not make it a _rule_. That _urging statement_ will not even affect whether a distro can get our endorsement. So this concern is simply not real. > So here we are only discussing this topic because it has (potentially > indirect) consequences on the FSDG distributions. With all due respect, I think that concern is based on the two misunderstandings I stated above -- it does not really exist. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The FSDG also makes sure that the binaries are free, the FSD doesn't. For the concerns of the FSD, the source code is the principal form of any program. Binaries are made by compiling the source code. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 22:02:53 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > I'm not sure, we probably need to promote this list to FSDG > > distributions contributors in general to make sure that people are > > here. > > I'd like to have the people directly involved on this list, plus > a few experts like you. NOT to get a lot of people -- it would > mean more unhelptul arguments. I had in mind FSDG distributions maintainers. In Parabola and Guix that would mean potentially everybody that can push packages. They often have specific responsibilities like to read/suscribe to certain mailing lists for instance. So telling them that this list do exist and what is it for, and that we would need at least 1 person per distribution (but not necessarily everybody) to keep an eye on the list would be useful I think. Denis. pgpTA58mwLYX2.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 02:05:05 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 00:52:58 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > > the FSDG deals only with source code and has "the four freedoms" > > as it's policy, and nothing more - anything beyond the four > > freedoms is irrelevant or is posted as a warning > > sry typo - the *FSD* deals only with source code Sorry, I read that only after sending the last mail. Anyway there are still some differences that doesn't enable to use the FSD like that yet. Denis. pgpimZr5osNJi.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 00:52:58 -0400
bill-auger wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 04:24:24 +0200 Denis wrote:
> > I'd prefer avoid comparisons with the FSD as it's a different
> > project that might or might not have the same set of policies.
>
> i have already offered that analysis as best as i understand it (IIRC
> on this same thread) - the FSDG deals only with source code and has
> "the four freedoms" as it's policy, and nothing more - anything
> beyond the four freedoms is irrelevant or is posted as a warning
The FSDG also makes sure that the binaries are free, the FSD doesn't.
> so the FSDG is a proper super-set of the FSD criteria ("the four
> freedoms" plus more criteria) - therefore, anything which fails an
> FSD audit is necessarily unfit for the FSDG; so all of the FSD
> rejections are relevant to distros
It's not. There is the example of phoronix-test-suite that was accepted
in 2 FSDG distributions (Parabola and Guix) but rejected in the FSD
because it used a repository that contained nonfree tests.
Parabola and Guix removed or blocked the nonfree tests, but as this
entry shows, the FSD deals with upstream, not distributions
modifications, even if it has a warning for some wine packages that
suggest nonfree fonts with it.
Some class of software like firmwares are not even decided by the FSD,
so what is being reviewed might or might not stay, though it might be
useful to review some firmwares in typical situations to have more
information to help the decision.
So this is why I wanted to avoid this topic, as the next step would
then be to open the question of the boundaries of the FSD, and as I
understand that is still being decided anyway.
So it's better to stick to the topic here.
Denis.
pgpozPkL6LJXP.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 05:06:14 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > > Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for > > > ScummVM? > > > I don't see the point of having a libre replacement for ScummVM > > unless there is free software that can run in it. > > I agree. I would not suggest pwople write one. But I still ask the > question: > > > > Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for > > > ScummVM? > > because IF one ALREADY exists, that MIGHT make a difference. Do you > know the answer? If the question is if there is a drop-in replacement that can run similar kind of games, not as far as I know. RenPy is somewhat close because ScummVM and RenPy are 2D cross platform games. ScummVM and RenPy both have dialogs, but ScummVM can also do point-and-click games where you can interact with your environment, pickup objects, and do actions with them. I'm not sure if that's possible to do with RenPy. So if all you want to do is Dialogs, and that you only want the game to run on GNU/Linux, using RenPy would be way better/easier. Though it might require more maintenance in the long run as RenPy probably keeps evolving. > > The downside is that it runs on less operating systems than > > ScummVM[1]. > > Are people still portinmg Rempy? Releases for multiple OS probably bundle RenPy with the games, but I don't know how it works. I've only tried to run it on GNU/Linux in a packaged form. I've also tried modifying an exiting free games and it's trivial to do even for non-programmers. Denis. pgpXHJqQOv1i2.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 15:48:00 -0400 Ruben Rodriguez wrote: > https://github.com/JenniBee/openquest/ is a recent game under > CC-BY-4.0 Do I need to build it? Does it just work in ScummVM somehow? If so how do I launch it? > There are hundreds of community-made games compatible with scummvm, > and they are still actively being made. > > Also I still maintain that beneath-a-steel-sky and such are under a > (badly written) free license. To be free software they'd would also need to have the corresponding source code. And people doing GPL compliance typically try to build and run the source code to make sure it's really the complete and corresponding source code. Here what do we do if we don't know how to build it? If we don't, it could be incomplete, and we would not know about it. It could also contain nonfree dependencies. > > - As far as we know, ScummVM has a checksum whitelist, so: > > That is incorrect. The checksums are used to identify known games and > apply specific settings. The engine would run any compatible file. Thanks a lot for the information, it changes things. > > So the current situation is that ScummVM steers users toward nonfree > > games/software, because we can't direct them to at least a single > > games/software or use case that is FSDG compliant with ScummVM. > > Not only that is incorrect as I stated, I refuse to police what > people may use free software for. > > There is a large community of people playing, reverse-engineering, > modifying and sharing old games, in ways that go beyond what > copyright (and thus free software licensing) allows, and they do well > in ignoring such silly restrictions. Reverse engineering is a bit special here as it is the only use case where running nonfree software is good, assuming the nonfree software is the software being reverse engineered. Because of that free distributions typically ship reverse engineering tools like radare2. But they still don't ship software whose only goal is to download and install nonfree Nvidia and AMD GPU drivers for instance, even if these nonfree drivers have one perfectly valid use case: reverse engineering. So it would be easier to decide on what rationale to use with ScummVM without bringing in reverse engineering as it makes things more complex to deal with especially: - when the tools aren't specifically made for it (like ScummVM), - and also at the same time don't have known 100% free software that run in them (unlike uefireverse, where it's probably trivial to produce that software for it with GNU EFI). Here ScummVM probably need to be modified to enable to be used for reverse engineering. Modifying nonfree games (games mods, cracks, etc) and copyright violations of nonfree games is also a very common activity but here distributions also don't ship nonfree games or programs made specifically to run them. Some free games were even born out of that kind of modifications and became really free when the game engine was published under a free license, not before. With ScummVM, since thanks to you, I know know that checksums aren't enforced in any way, then I think my proposal needs to be reworked a bit but the main idea behind it still stands as it makes it *easy* for packagers, distributions maintainers, bug reporters, and users, to understand what can be shipped and what cannot, and it still enable people to ship ScummVM if they want, if they provide at least 1 valid use case (with a proof that the use case is possible). So I don't see it as policing users or even contributors at all here if requirements are added instead of simply banning ScummVM or suggesting not to use/package it. Packaging at least 1 single program with ScummVM would constitute that proof and remove all this uncertainly and make sure that the supposedly free software case is really real, and avoid any potential confusion or endless debates. So here I don't see why requiring that would be bad, especially if the use case is deemed important it would precisely improve the situation for that use case and improve users freedom as well (as it would steer users less toward nonfree software) compared to not packaging a single program for ScummVM. PS: Also note that the practical ability to modify games is important. The fact that here the nonfree game runs in a VM without network access is not sufficient to treat them like if they were free software. We also need to be able to modify them, and be able to legally redistribute the modifications. Here I assume that the modifications you are talking about are difficult to do without source code. An example of use case for modification here is games that are sexist/racists and that needs to be modified to have more diversity of choice for the main player characters for instance. This use case is important even if the distribution is not shipping the games, because stories and games come with ideology / points of views, so we
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 22:36:31 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > Similar to Guix's decision on ScummVM, I think that the rationale > > could be that: > > - We don't know any free games. > > - As far as we know, ScummVM has a checksum whitelist, so: > > - If there is a free game whose checksum is in ScummVM it could > > be OK. But we'd need to point users to that game in the package > > description for instance. > > - If people package an FSDG compliant game, they'd have to add > > its checksums to ScummVM (at package build time for instance). > > - If instead some people manage to write a hello world for > > ScummVM and that the rationale is that ScummVM can (also) be used > > to write games, then a patch would need to be made to enable > > scummVM to load any game written by the user. And how to write a > > game would need to be documented too. > > We could do that, but it would not be a wise choice. It would be > inviting someone to make some old free program run in ScummVM, and > then argue that means we "have no rationale to reject it." > > We are not limited to bases like that! We are not a court > and this is not a trial about some program's right to be distributed. > To denounce s program, we do not need to find it has ZERO > legitimate use in the free world. VERY LITTLE legitimate use > is enough reason to say "let's not distribute this." My rationale is also about human psychology: deciding that a program has very little legitimate use can really looks like a court for some people and it could be perceived as infringing on some users freedom if the users have valid 100% free software use cases. Here it would not be seen as infringing on individual freedom but rather on the collective freedom to organize through FSDG distributions to make these use cases work with 100% free software. So the counter part of something like that: > We urge free distros not to include ScummVM because does not > contribute anything significant to the free software commuity. would be to understand what is contributing something significant, and more specifically how that would apply to other programs, because here ScummVM is not the issue because we can already prove that ScummVM steers users toward nonfree software with arguments that are extremely solid. So here we are only discussing this topic because it has (potentially indirect) consequences on the FSDG distributions. Denis. pgpKCLx6CzZHo.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On 7/11/23 01:36, bill-auger wrote: On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 22:36:31 -0400 Richard wrote: However, having looked ath those games' license, I see it is nonfree. So my decision is to state this policy: We urge free distros not to include ScummVM because does not contribute anything significant to the free software commuity. if those four games are all non-free, the suggestion will most likely never apply to any distro, because it singles out that one specific and very unpopular program - scummvm is nearly unknown, even to gamers - that statement will only become less relevant over time Scummvm is a very well known, very popular engine/emulator. It has been ported to most operating systems and game consoles, it is available on all app stores including f-droid, and it is a staple of retro gaming. This thread is getting ridiculous.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On 7/10/23 22:36, Richard Stallman wrote: We could do that[...] We are not limited[...] We are not a court[...] > We will not[...]. We want[...] so we can [...] we should judge[...] So *my decision* is to state this policy: _We_ urge free distros not to include ScummVM because does not contribute anything significant to the free software commuity. Who is we?
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On 7/4/23 10:24, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote: Similar to Guix's decision on ScummVM, I think that the rationale could be that: - We don't know any free games. https://github.com/JenniBee/openquest/ is a recent game under CC-BY-4.0 There are hundreds of community-made games compatible with scummvm, and they are still actively being made. Also I still maintain that beneath-a-steel-sky and such are under a (badly written) free license. - As far as we know, ScummVM has a checksum whitelist, so: That is incorrect. The checksums are used to identify known games and apply specific settings. The engine would run any compatible file. So the current situation is that ScummVM steers users toward nonfree games/software, because we can't direct them to at least a single games/software or use case that is FSDG compliant with ScummVM. Not only that is incorrect as I stated, I refuse to police what people may use free software for. There is a large community of people playing, reverse-engineering, modifying and sharing old games, in ways that go beyond what copyright (and thus free software licensing) allows, and they do well in ignoring such silly restrictions.
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
John Sullivan writes: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 10:20:28PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >> >> > ... it is because to me, _no_ games are important enough to deserve such >> > fuss - they are purely for entertainment; so they are inherently low >> priority >> > - from that perspective, we may as well be discussing how many "lady >> gaga" >> > videos we can distribute - answer: "i dont care - we have bigger fish to >> fry >> > today" - "zero" is as good as any other amount - lets just decide, then >> move on >> > with due haste >> >> That is roughly what I think, too, but not quite exactly. >> I think it is of some importance to have free games and to distribute them. >> No users _need_ games, but many users _like_ games. >> Offering them free games can (1) help them enjoy using free systems >> and (2) illustrate that they can develop more free games. >> >> However, that is not pertinent to ScummVM. Distributing ScummVM >> has at best a minimal relationship to making free games more available. >> >> Basically, John's argument makes a mountain out of a molehill, takes a >> gram of that mountain, and makes inflates that to a mountain again. >> > > Unsubscribing based on this. The above is not an argument at all, and in > no way helped advance the conversation toward a logical, evidence-based > conclusion. I really don't care that much about ScummVM -- I care about > a sound process for making decisions about the application of the FSF's > guidelines, which this is not. I second John’s conclusion. This is no way to conduct a productive conversation. I find it worrying that an attempt is made to make a wide-ranging decision to ban useful free software from being distributed in FSDG distros while ridiculing arguments against that decision. For me the conclusion is obvious: I’ll just ignore whatever actions this group declares as decided when *this* is exemplary of the decision making process. The tendency to ban, break, or mutilate free software applications to make them conform to arbitrary rules and personal interpretations of these rules (see the discussion about package managers for more examples) alienates me enough from this group to not bother interacting with it more. -- Ricardo
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I'm not sure, we probably need to promote this list to FSDG > distributions contributors in general to make sure that people are > here. I'd like to have the people directly involved on this list, plus a few experts like you. NOT to get a lot of people -- it would mean more unhelptul arguments. I guess the first question was, what was the purpose of this list a few years ago? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Here we already have everything we need to reach a conclusion about > ScummVM without bringing in rationale that are too much subjective. That may be so now for ScummVM, but if you're proposing the goal of using a rigid rule to eliminate all judgment about cass and their consequences, that is misguided as explained it my other messages. Such rigidity could lead to clearly wrong results. First, suppose that next month we discover one game that uses ScummVM and is indeed free software. Would that alter the fact that ScummVM has little use except to promote nonfree software? Should we have rules that require us to change policy and encourage distros to include it, because of that one free game? No. We should continue to urge distros not to include it, even if its actual utility in the free world is tiny rather than exactly zero. This illustrates the point that with a totally rigid rule, a small change in the situation can lead discontinuities. We should make non-exact judgments so that we can treat .001 like zero. Second, consider all the programs that use third-party package managers that include nonfree software. Each of these programs would be excluded from free distros right now if we applied our rules rigidly. The fact is, we have made an arbitrary exception for them, because we could not take on the matter of fixing those problems. That was not right, but we never built up the will to do any better. We should stop making that exception and fix these problems instead. But that will take some years. We should continue the exception, for each package manager, until we have fixed it. The drawbacks of a strict rule are more bearable on a small scale. We can and should be strict in rejecting nonfree software from within a package. But strictness about third-party package managers would be a mistake. We have to be flexible so we can make a plan to fix those problems, over time, but not be unreasonably rstrictive until then. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
I've unsubscribed from the list, and also sent at least one reminder that I was unsubscribed after still being CCed on replies to this thread. Please remove me from CC. -john
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 22:36:31 -0400 Richard wrote: > However, having looked ath those games' license, I see it is nonfree. > So my decision is to state this policy: > > We urge free distros not to include ScummVM because does not > contribute anything significant to the free software commuity. if those four games are all non-free, the suggestion will most likely never apply to any distro, because it singles out that one specific and very unpopular program - scummvm is nearly unknown, even to gamers - that statement will only become less relevant over time most other game emulators have no games in the distros repos, and are much more likely to remain in the system, because they have always been used primarily for non-free games - scummvm is among the least interesting one of the lot - without those four games, libre distros will probably remove it anyways, with or without a suggestion to do so at the very least, you could generalize it like: > We urge free distros not to include emulators and hosts of foreign programs > without accompanying libre guest softwrae; because those do not > contribute anything significant to the free software commuity otherwise. in that form, it actually could be a reasonable requirement > Free distros must not include emulators or hosts of foreign programs > without accompanying libre guest softwrae; you are being very inconsistent about this though - on the other thread, you are suggesting that distros should keep _dozens_ of third-party package managers, probably for years, and not suggesting any sort of warning about those - yet those have a clear and present conflict with the FSDG, as it is already written
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Similar to Guix's decision on ScummVM, I think that the rationale could > be that: > - We don't know any free games. > - As far as we know, ScummVM has a checksum whitelist, so: > - If there is a free game whose checksum is in ScummVM it could be > OK. But we'd need to point users to that game in the package > description for instance. > - If people package an FSDG compliant game, they'd have to add its > checksums to ScummVM (at package build time for instance). > - If instead some people manage to write a hello world for ScummVM > and that the rationale is that ScummVM can (also) be used to write > games, then a patch would need to be made to enable scummVM to load > any game written by the user. And how to write a game would need to > be documented too. We could do that, but it would not be a wise choice. It would be inviting someone to make some old free program run in ScummVM, and then argue that means we "have no rationale to reject it." We are not limited to bases like that! We are not a court and this is not a trial about some program's right to be distributed. To denounce s program, we do not need to find it has ZERO legitimate use in the free world. VERY LITTLE legitimate use is enough reason to say "let's not distribute this." We will not adopt a rigid rule. We want flexible criteria so we can do what serves our goal. Far from counting use cases, we should judge the overall importance of good and bad. Regarding ScummVM, it was already clear that it did little good to the free world, already clear it was best to say "Please don't distribute this." However, having looked ath those games' license, I see it is nonfree. So my decision is to state this policy: We urge free distros not to include ScummVM because does not contribute anything significant to the free software commuity. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 00:52:58 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > the FSDG deals only with source code and has "the four freedoms" > as it's policy, and nothing more - anything beyond the four freedoms is > irrelevant or is posted as a warning sry typo - the *FSD* deals only with source code
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 04:24:24 +0200 Denis wrote:
> I'd prefer avoid comparisons with the FSD as it's a different project
> that might or might not have the same set of policies.
i have already offered that analysis as best as i understand it (IIRC on this
same thread) - the FSDG deals only with source code and has "the four freedoms"
as it's policy, and nothing more - anything beyond the four freedoms is
irrelevant or is posted as a warning
so the FSDG is a proper super-set of the FSD criteria ("the four freedoms" plus
more criteria) - therefore, anything which fails an FSD audit is necessarily
unfit for the FSDG; so all of the FSD rejections are relevant to distros
the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution
Guidelines" could list all of those immediately with the suggested liberation
treatment: "none yet known", and ideally go beyond that to suggest acceptable
liberation treatments for each, as they become known
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 04:24:24 +0200 Denis wrote:
> And the next
> step if we look at the FSD would be to start looking at how similar
> it is, and then discuss FSD policies and so on, in a never ending
> discussion.
yea, like this one :)
i was only suggestion that as an ideal situation, to describe the intention and
utility of "the list" itself - this work-group is far from doing anything
"ideal" yet
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 04:19:00 +0200 Denis wrote: > If we just want a decision on the games, and not to add them to the > list of software that doesn't respect the FSDG we can have each distro > either: i think we wat to add them - that list should be resource for any software which has been audited by the work-group and found to be flawed - we should really consider integrating the FSD audits as well the rationale is not merely to be pedantic - it is a matter of efficiency, (to reduce duplicated efforts), the same reason your previous message suggested being more precise; so distro have a clear central resource where to find past knowledge, rather than repeating the same audits On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 04:19:00 +0200 Denis wrote: > > "is the license of 'bass' acceptable?" > It was not just bass but at least 2 or 3 other games if I recall well. there are only four scummvm games to deal with immediately - very likely, no others will ever be added to any distro - all four are in guix, trisquel, and pureos (and probably ututo) - parabola had only 'bass' and still has scummvm (with no dependents) - probably no other FSDG distros have any of these things we have a good handle on the entire situation - we only need to decide if the licenses are acceptable
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Sat, 08 Jul 2023 22:54:02 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > Arent the maintainers of free distros on this list? > I thought they were. I'm not sure, we probably need to promote this list to FSDG distributions contributors in general to make sure that people are here. In the case of Replicant I learned very late that it was a list I needed to be on, though most discussions are about GNU/Linux specific issues. Denis. pgpTR2ZR2_kP9.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 20:49:18 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > the "List of software that does not respect the Free System > Distribution Guidelines" in the subject is a list of recommended > liberation treatments of non-free software - all entries are of the > sort: "distros must treat this software or discard it" - in general, > those are software which would not qualify for the FSD - none are of > the sort: "distros may choose to discard this software; although it > requires no libre treatments and is listed in the FSD" I'd prefer avoid comparisons with the FSD as it's a different project that might or might not have the same set of policies. And the next step if we look at the FSD would be to start looking at how similar it is, and then discuss FSD policies and so on, in a never ending discussion. Denis. pgpyg8BhtPeul.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 15:05:27 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 16:24:24 +0200 Denis wrote: > > - We don't know any free games. > > disagreed - we are yet to determine if the license of 'bass' is or is > not acceptable - that is the only reason why scummvm is being > discussed in the first place It depends on what we want. If we just want a decision on the games, and not to add them to the list of software that doesn't respect the FSDG we can have each distro either: (1) Declare that they don't know where the source code is and exclude the games. (2) Suppose that the source code is in the data files. For Drascula, I've managed to extract data from the archive but it still contained executable without corresponding source code (and some other files). So they can rule that game out and suppose that the other games are in the same situation. (3) They can exclude the games because they are not built from source. So far with all the infos we have, (3) is the easiest path, then (1). If we want to add software to that list of software that doesn't respect the FSDG, we could suppose (1) and exclude the games because of "missing source code" which is vague enough to cover the case of source code that is lost. If the source code is "found again" inside the archive, we could start reconsidering the game. This way we don't need to wait for someone to review the license. > "is the license of 'bass' acceptable?" It was not just bass but at least 2 or 3 other games if I recall well. If you want an easy pick, Drascula is easiest because its content can be extracted with 'binwalk -e Packet.001' and inside you can clearly see some executable with missing source code like DRASCULA.COM for instance. Drascula is/was shipped by at least Guix and Trisquel. Denis. pgplVwxnqBLVf.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 21:45:01 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > Since most of the docker images are not FSDG compliant, do we > > remove Docker completely? > > Let's not rush into a discussion of Docker now. That discussion will > take time and attention. We do not know enough about Docker and its > usage to reach any conclusions. (You seem to know something about it, > but that knowledge has not been stated here, so _we_ do not know it.) > > Anyway, the right place for those discussions is gnu-prog-discuss, > not here. gnu-prog-discuss seems to be an internal mailing list for GNU that "Only active GNU programmers and maintainers may join.". All the issues we are discussing here affect FSDG distribution at large, including the ones that didn't join the GNU project. As I understand, even if the criteria is part of GNU, only Guix is part of GNU. Parabola, Trisquel etc aren't part of GNU. Even in the case where FSDG distributions don't need to deal with any of the issues we are discussing here, they also need to know that. But even if we might need to also have this discussion here, or in similar spaces, we do not need to have it now. Denis. pgp9qdlibMnKZ.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 21:01:18 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > I think it was worth having. We will make a recommendsation, and I > hope that will help the distros converge. I think it was worth having too, but it would have been way better to open a new thread to be able to steer the conversation toward specific questions instead of having to deal with too many issues at the same time. This is why I tried to make the thread stay about the specific games only at the beginning: the scope is manageable easily and we can then open new threads for other questions with a scope that is also manageable, and it also enables to lower the risk of conflating issues together. For instance it turned out that what to do with ScummVM is not necessarily the same from what to do in general for programs like VMs that run other programs like games when there is no 100% free software use case for the "VM". And what to do with ScummVM also depends on if there are free games/programs or not so getting an answer on that first was also a good idea. It also showed how in practice to deal with some form of unknown (no known free games is not the same as no free games) which is very useful for contributors (packagers, people writing documentation, bug reporters, etc). At least that was very useful to me. Denis. pgpQbAFzCqIzO.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 21:00:47 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > That is not important in these cases. If we don't come to a clear > conclusion about a program like ScummVM, we simply do nothjing. Here we already have everything we need to reach a conclusion about ScummVM without bringing in rationale that are too much subjective. For that we just classify ScummVM as a software that has no known 100% free software that can run in it, and declare that it steers users toward nonfree software because of that and it's done. This doesn't need to modify the FSDG, it doesn't need to change or clarify its interpretation, it doesn't need endless discussions, etc. > > for every similar instance, it becomes a sisyphusian task > > There will not be so many -- we will only bother with the programs > that people bring to our attention. And we don't need to re-evaluate > them unless there are is a pressing case to do so. Endless discussions also tend to make people tired and has the potential to bring in conflicts and make it less fun to contribute to FSDG distributions. For instance here we have someone that resigned from this mailing list already as an example of that (but probably also because of the complexity of the situation which brings misunderstandings, the fact that several things were conflated together, etc). Personally I'd also like a simple conclusion so that we can get on with more tangible contributions to free software and that we don't have to argue endlessly to avoid potentially negative side effects of a decision that is too complicated to implement correctly. People participating in FSDG distributions probably also want to end up with concrete results, like freeing some software, updating some packages, adding new packages, removing nonfree software, etc, so having simple ways to deal with situations like that helps the community stay healthy which helps the project in the longer term. Denis. pgp1ApQU0SEv6.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 05:06:11 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > If there is "1 or more free games [that] need it", it's also > > possible to reduce the steering toward nonfree software by hiding > > ScummVM somehow as a dependency of these games. > > I am not sure that would have the desired effect, but maybe it could. > Could you present a more detailed scenario so I can think about it? > > How exactly would we present this so as to avoid the bad result > I've talked about? Here I'll assume that someone manages to package draci historie, and that it packages fine in various FSDG compliant distributions. Once someone manages to build a draft package of Draci historie, that person would also need to additionally: - Modify the ScummVM package description to match the intended usage. The short package description would be: "Game Engine for Draci Historie". Guix has an additional longer package description, so it would probably explain a bit more things, like that it was patched with Draci Historie checksums for instance, but it would not steer users toward nonfree software. - Once a user install Draci Historie, scummVM will not be in the PATH, it will not be available in the menu where people typically find programs. Instead users would only find "Draci Historie" which would be a shell script in the PATH that launches the game with ScummVM, so some users could not even understand that ScummVM is being used. Draci Historie would also appear in the menu in the games section and launch this script. In Parabola both ScummVM and Draci Historie would be compiled in the same package. In Guix it would be in 2 different packages but the ScummVM package would be treated as a dependency. If other games are added later on Parabola would also add them in the same package, and Guix would make both games a build dependency of ScummVM (because the games checksums need to be added so they need to be built first), and also make scummVM a runtime dependency of the games. In addition it's probably possible to block the usage of the other games by removing the checksums of the other games or replacing them by the checksum of an empty file, but I'm unsure if that is easy to maintain over time. Maybe a script could be made to automatize that somehow in a way that is more maintainable. Denis. pgpVgjB8iHDQN.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Sat, 08 Jul 2023 22:54:02 -0400 Richard wrote: > When we consider the possibility of changing the criteria for endorsing > a free distro, this seems like the right list to use. you were not suggesting to change the criteria - you were suggesting to post some sort of warning, which distros could decide to heed optionally - there is no place to put such a warning - the FSDG has never done anything like that that sort of warning is often added to the FSD entries though On Sat, 08 Jul 2023 22:54:02 -0400 Richard wrote: > Arent the maintainers of free distros on this list? > I thought they were. there are only a few - we wish that all of them would participate; but it is not a requirement
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > no, that is all i meant - this mailing list is for reviewing distros and > liberating non-free software - there is nowhere in relation to the FSDG to put > arbitrary recommendations of the sort this is proposing (to recommend rejecting > scummvm, although it is libre) - that concern is outside the scope of this > work-group When we consider the possibility of changing the criteria for endorsing a free distro, this seems like the right list to use. Arent the maintainers of free distros on this list? I thought they were. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 07 Jul 2023 05:02:44 -0400 Richard wrote: > I am not sure what you mean by saying one is a "webmaster's concern". > It is a question of what to say in www.gnu.org, to be sure, but you > seem to mean something else, and I am not sure what. no, that is all i meant - this mailing list is for reviewing distros and liberating non-free software - there is nowhere in relation to the FSDG to put arbitrary recommendations of the sort this is proposing (to recommend rejecting scummvm, although it is libre) - that concern is outside the scope of this work-group the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines" in the subject is a list of recommended liberation treatments of non-free software - all entries are of the sort: "distros must treat this software or discard it" - in general, those are software which would not qualify for the FSD - none are of the sort: "distros may choose to discard this software; although it requires no libre treatments and is listed in the FSD"
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for ScummVM? > I don't see the point of having a libre replacement for ScummVM unless > there is free software that can run in it. I agree. I would not suggest pwople write one. But I still ask the question: > > Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for ScummVM? because IF one ALREADY exists, that MIGHT make a difference. Do you know the answer? > If the goal is to have games/programs similar to what runs inside > ScummVM we likely have alternatives to it (that are not drop in > replacements). That could be a useful goal. > Renpy seems to be a game engine aimed at similar kind of > programs/games. > It probably has a lot of nonfree games made for it too but it also has > free games/programs (like the renpy tutorial) and it has information on > how to make your own game/program too. Renpy is much better as a free package, in freedom terms, than ScummVM. Thus, I am thinking of saying, "Forget about ScummVM, use Rempy instead." > The downside is that it runs on less operating systems than ScummVM[1]. Are people still portinmg Rempy? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> I'd prefer a statement like that, as it avoid judging the use case
> ("ScummVM is obsolete technology"):
Why should we avoid that? It is true. If it suits our purpose, we
should say it.
You've also made a change in the main point, from
used for anything except
> running old nonfree games, so it contributes nothing significant to
> the Free World.
to
> We don't know if it is possible to run fully free software
> games/programs inside ScummVM: so far nobody has managed to build
> and/or review the source code of supposedly free software
> games/programs for ScummVM under free distributions.
We should not say that, because it is not a good position for us to
take. We should maintain flexibility about ScummVM so we can do what
is strategically best.
> Here a free game/program would also serve implicitly as a proof that
> it's possible to write your own code that runs inside ScummVM.
I see, but is that important to prove? Why would we want to prove it?
ScummVM is not very important in a positive way. Mainly it is a pain
in the neck.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > If there is "1 or more free games [that] need it", it's also possible > to reduce the steering toward nonfree software by hiding ScummVM > somehow as a dependency of these games. I am not sure that would have the desired effect, but maybe it could. Could you present a more detailed scenario so I can think about it? How exactly would we present this so as to avoid the bad result I've talked about? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > What I'm interested is also how precisely we justify the advise > to remove ScummVM IF we find that the main effect of including ScummVM in free distros is to promote nonfree games, the justification for the advice to remove ScummVM would be simple: to avoid promoting nonfree games. This is reason is simple and valid. I don't think any more justification is needed. because the same rationale would also likely be > applied to other packages as well, to produce advises. If there are similar cases, we would think about each case. What we would decide in each case would depend on details. We would have no reason to make similar decisions in all the cases. These cases are similar in general structure, in what the options are and HOW to decide, but that doesn't mean they all call for the same decision! And that would > at least impact people that read these these advises, distributions that > follow them, and the reputation of the FSDG criteria. That is rather vague, I can't draw a conclusion from it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > In that case, if we find that there are indeed a few free games that > > use ScummVM, let's adopt that statement. There seems to be no > > significant reason not to. > > > > Supposing there are a few free games that use ScummVM, either of two choice > > would be possible: > > > > 1. Treat it like any other free program. > > 2. Use my announcement, above. > what i am trying to address on this list (the FSDG list), is that these > are separate concerns It is hard for me to follow because you are commenting on "these concerns" without saying which concerns you mean. - to make a statement about scummvm is a webmaster's > concern - to decide if the games, which distros are distributing now, are > acceptable is an FSDG concern I don't know what you mean by this distinction, but these two decisions are closely related (since they are both about ScummVM). Both are aspects of (1) acting in accord with the free software philosophy and (2) promoting it. I am not sure what you mean by saying one is a "webmaster's concern". It is a question of what to say in www.gnu.org, to be sure, but you seem to mean something else, and I am not sure what. The GNU webmasters are not an automomous group. For issues that are more about web design than about message, I usually defer to their judgment because they know what is possible and what works well, though I do comment. But when it comes to presenting and following our philosophy, leading that is my role. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 22:54:31 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > To do that I also documented if there were known free tools to > > build programs for the emulators, or what work was missing > > (reviewing software like the games under free licenses mentioned > > before, what was missing to make FSDG distros work on gaming > > consoles, etc). > > > I've also added well know emulators (like qemu) that have no > > issues as it's also good to remind people that some emulators are > > perfectly fine. > > This sounds like an important step forward. Would you like to develop > that (with advice from others such as Bill Auger and me) into general > advice about deciding whether an emulator is good to include? Yes, given the amount of time I spent on these discussions, I'm really interested in converting that to something more tangible. > Is this kind of issue really limited to emulators? There are other > kinds of programs which are platforms to run other programs, and I > think that they would all raise similar issues -- though perhaps there > is an empirical tendency for emulators to be used for running nonfree > programs. Yes there is. Some compatibility layers have the same issue. For instance Wine should be OK but some other are more problematic like Waydroid where there is no FSDG compliant distribution that runs inside it (yet). It also applies to operating systems like Android etc, so we can treat the issue in a more generic way if we want. > Perhaps you can generalize it to be about programs with a certain > structure of use cases, rather than "emulators". Yes. After writing more specialized documentation, I think I finally came up with something general enough[1] that can cover all the issues mentioned. Here I took the use case of distributing software, and see where we can do that in ways that do respect the FSDG. So for instance it covers distributing software for virtual machines, operating systems, browsers, distributions and can even cover specific hardware (like gaming consoles) from the perspective contributors only running FSDG compliant distributions. And this way it avoid duplicating the information across too much different somewhat overlapping articles. > > > of course the option remains to write some new software for > > > those emulators yourself; but practically speaking, that > > > requires learning some specialized esoteric programming > > > language or machine code for those obsolete CPUs - the use-case > > > of playing the many readily available games, is itself very > > > small - the use-case of writing new software for those machines > > > is much smaller, as to be negligible IMHO > > > - i contend that unless the distro offers some free software > > > for use with the free tool, the presence of the free tool > > > suggests its most popular use-case (acquiring some from a > > > third-party which does not follow the FSDG) > > The way to go here is indeed probably to review applications and > > games that are under free licenses to make sure that they can be > > built and run with 100% free software. If they are packaged the > > emulator could even be a bit hidden when possible by for instance > > making a script or .desktop files to launch the game inside the > > emulator directly, so users would just see the emulator as a > > dependency like any other dependency and not directly interact > > with it. > > This suggests to me that the criterion for making this judgment should > be the existence of used and maintained free applications that depend > on that emulator or platform for their use. Yes, that should work fine. > > Another way would be, if I was wrong about the FSDG, to inform > > users that none of the third party repositories are vetted by the > > distribution, and still try to document at least 100% free > > repositories somewhere (like on the Libreplanet wiki, in some > > FSF/GNU article, on distributions wiki, etc). > > To include an emulator or package manager in a distro is one thing. > To include (virtually) lots of nonfree programs that run on it is > quite another. Merely warning users that it tends to lead to > installing nonfree programs is not enough. That's also what I think as it would only work for more technical users[1]. > We clearly have the duty to change things so that the emulator or > package manager _does not_ lead people into installing these nonfree > dependent packages. > > That's why I raised the question of how to do that with Cargo. I didn't look at cargo at all yet. I would probably need to learn rust along the way to understand how all that work. > Each time we fix one of these problems, it will give us a good > opportunity to point out the difference between free software and open > source, to a subcommunity that probably has not paid attention to it. Right: If some distributions only redistributes free software (for instance avoid legally accepting nonfree
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 16:24:24 +0200 Denis wrote: > One of the issue is also that the discussion has been conflating several > points together like running nonfree games, running free games, if > games are important or not, how to write games, etc. agreed - i remind everyone once again, the topic of this thread: "Adding some scummvm game(s) to the List ..." On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 16:24:24 +0200 Denis wrote: > - We don't know any free games. disagreed - we are yet to determine if the license of 'bass' is or is not acceptable - that is the only reason why scummvm is being discussed in the first place; but the discussion went completely off the rail 2 months ago - discussion of scummvm itself is relatively trivial; and it apparently caused one participant to unsubscribe - we should drop that topic for now, and complete the job we came here to do this discussion has exhausted my patience as well we must not leave issues hanging like that - it is a fundamental problem with this work-group today - there are already five other issues more important than bass or scummvm which are left undecided since years ago - four of them, i consider to be critical - "the List" itself deserves a long discussion of its own we need to strive for consensus on these issues, or we are doing nothing of importance on this mailing list - so i ask again, may we return to the original topic? "is the license of 'bass' acceptable?"
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 22:10:36 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > When you say what the hypothetical rule would "require", I am not sure > what that means. Who would the requirement be placed on? On the free > distros? On the GNU Project leaders? The free distros. > Are you talking about what we, the people in this discussion, ought to > do in future cases of programs that people ask us to think about? > > I would call that a duty, not a rule. We have no need to specify > in detail or rigidly how we will deal with these cases. What I'm interested is also how precisely we justify the advise to remove ScummVM because the same rationale would also likely be applied to other packages as well, to produce advises. And that would at least impact people that read these these advises, distributions that follow them, and the reputation of the FSDG criteria. Denis. pgpqggeSz67yD.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 22:55:29 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > but then ruben offered an example of one libre game which does > > exist for ScummVM, which would resolve ScummVM's loneliness > > problem, if it has one > > I don't think that is the right way to understand this issue. > It's a judgment call, not a logic problem. > > The question is not whether ScummVM false into the category of "0 free > games need it" or "1 or more free games need it". > > The question is whether the free games that need ScummVM are > significant enpugh to change the judgment from "basically this is a > way of running old nonfree games" to "this makes senss in the Free > World." > > There is no sharp line between the two. If there is "1 or more free games [that] need it", it's also possible to reduce the steering toward nonfree software by hiding ScummVM somehow as a dependency of these games. So in that case, it can be justified as reducing the steering toward nonfree software, and given ScummVM specificities (whitelist of games/programs checksums), applying the same logic to similar cases would probably not cause significant issues. Denis. pgpf01tS3l3Um.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 23:21:30 -0400
Richard Stallman wrote:
> I am leaning toward making a statement in the appropriate place:
>
> ScummVM is obsolete technology, and hardly used for anything except
> running old nonfree games, so it contributes nothing significant to
> the Free World. People who want to develop free games have much
> better platforms to choose from. Therefore, we urge free distros to
> omit it, and to explain why they do so.
I'd prefer a statement like that, as it avoid judging the use case
("ScummVM is obsolete technology"):
We don't know if it is possible to run fully free software
games/programs inside ScummVM: so far nobody has managed to build
and/or review the source code of supposedly free software
games/programs for ScummVM under free distributions. In addition,
unless the ScummVM source code is modified, it can only run games
approved by its developers, so its source code would need to be
modified anyway to be able to run modified versions of free
games/programs.
Therefore, until we can confirm that there are really free
games/programs for ScummVM, we urge free distros to omit
ScummVM, and to explain why they do so.
Here a free game/program would also serve implicitly as a proof that
it's possible to write your own code that runs inside ScummVM.
Denis.
pgpP15tWxpOCR.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 23:07:34 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for ScummVM? I don't see the point of having a libre replacement for ScummVM unless there is free software that can run in it. If the goal is to have games/programs similar to what runs inside ScummVM we likely have alternatives to it (that are not drop in replacements). Renpy seems to be a game engine aimed at similar kind of programs/games. It probably has a lot of nonfree games made for it too but it also has free games/programs (like the renpy tutorial) and it has information on how to make your own game/program too. The downside is that it runs on less operating systems than ScummVM[1]. References: --- [1]For instance for a non-profit seeking to distribute tutorials on how to combat harassment at work for instance, the number of operating systems supported can be relevant. And this isn't incompatible with FSDG compliance and the promotion of free software and free operating systems / distros. Denis. pgpzM1SrTJdtd.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 22:20:46 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > We have found no reason to consider ScummVM's inclusion in free > distros to be a good thing, but there remains the question of whether > its inclusion is harmful enough to state a position or rule, and if > so, what that should say. A rule not to include it would be the > strongest possible response, but a software response might be better. > > I thimk that a stated recommendation to omit ScummVM might be a good > measure to take now. > > It could refer to the documentation's promotion of nonfree games, that > you cited, and say that at least that promotion should not be in the > distro. Similar to Guix's decision on ScummVM, I think that the rationale could be that: - We don't know any free games. - As far as we know, ScummVM has a checksum whitelist, so: - If there is a free game whose checksum is in ScummVM it could be OK. But we'd need to point users to that game in the package description for instance. - If people package an FSDG compliant game, they'd have to add its checksums to ScummVM (at package build time for instance). - If instead some people manage to write a hello world for ScummVM and that the rationale is that ScummVM can (also) be used to write games, then a patch would need to be made to enable scummVM to load any game written by the user. And how to write a game would need to be documented too. So the current situation is that ScummVM steers users toward nonfree games/software, because we can't direct them to at least a single games/software or use case that is FSDG compliant with ScummVM. And so we have everything we need here to get ScummVM removed either in the short or longer term without having to decide which use cases are more important than other. And I think judging use cases is very important to avoid because: - It is incredibly hard to weight use cases right. For instance some people might remove virtual machines like qemu because it is mainly used to run nonfree OS, while for other people it's used for very different things like virtualization. Here this example is exaggerated on purpose to explain better the issue, but in practice it would likely be way less obvious and at the end discriminate less well known use cases. This in turn could lead to users having difficulties meeting their use cases with FSDG compliant distributions and/or fragmentation of users. - Because it can potentially have nasty side effects, if the logic that works well for one case is applied to another. For instance if a programming language interpreter has more nonfree software than free software written / distributed for it, it should be removed if we follow the same rules than with games. If it's not removed people might think that the process of removing software is being abused and biased negatively toward games and be shocked by the decisions. And if the language is removed, instead people needing that language could also be shocked by the decision. So I think it's better not to open this can of worms of judging what use cases are more important than others, especially because in the long run I don't see how to avoid the collateral damage that result from deciding on use cases. And here that collateral damage might not be visible but it would be very real as the community would likely be less healthy and diverse and smaller. One of the issue is also that the discussion has been conflating several points together like running nonfree games, running free games, if games are important or not, how to write games, etc. Here I'm assuming this is the case because some responses conflated two or more issues together. And that doesn't help seeing things clearly and it also tend to misrepresent people's position, which doesn't help to calm down the discussion. Denis. pgpixiZdeWD0J.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 23:07:48 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > > > Guix is supposed to build everything from sources, right? > > It usually does. People in guix-devel report already > > pointed that the games was missing source code, so I added more > > infos about that. > > Guix is supposed to be entirely free software. > How can they justify the inclusion of these games, > they being nonfree? They will remove the games (if they didn't already) because they are not built from source. As for ScummVM they will wait a bit before removing it to leave some time to people (something like 1 to 5 years) to come up with some free games. They also found where to patch ScummVM to add new checksums, so if draci historie is packaged (a game with source code that needs packaging and/or a licensing review), it would also solve the problem too for Guix and ScummVM would be kept in the long run. Denis. pgp9G6IB9RuVo.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 22:44:48 -0400 Richard wrote: > In that case, if we find that there are indeed a few free games that > use ScummVM, let's adopt that statement. There seems to be no > significant reason not to. > > Supposing there are a few free games that use ScummVM, either of two choice > would be possible: > > 1. Treat it like any other free program. > 2. Use my announcement, above. what i am trying to address on this list (the FSDG list), is that these are separate concerns - to make a statement about scummvm is a webmaster's concern - to decide if the games, which distros are distributing now, are acceptable is an FSDG concern the "reason not to" (to make a statement about scummvm) _yet_, is because we have yet to address the primary concern of the games licenses - although that is the only reason why this discussion started i suggest to move the discussion about a general statement to the webmasters list, and focus on the license of the games on this list; because that is the more urgent concern, and has yet to yield an actionable consensus
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
I unsubscribed from the list -- please stop copying me on this thread. -john
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 23:21:30 -0400 Richard wrote: > I am leaning toward making a statement in the appropriate place: > > ScummVM is obsolete technology, and hardly used for anything except > running old nonfree games, so it contributes nothing significant to > the Free World. People who want to develop free games have much > better platforms to choose from. Therefore, we urge free distros to > omit it, and to explain why they do so. i do agree with that statement; however, the thing is, distros are distributing scummvm now, because there are free games for it - that is the only reason why any distro is distributing scummvm today if there were no free games for scummvm, no one would need to recommend excluding it - distros would most likely remove it anyways; because the package has no dependents remaining in the system so more to the point, the only reason why we are discussing scummvm is because we have yet to determine if those scummvm games are or are not libre - if they are libre, then there is nothing remaining of importance to discuss - this is "putting the cart before the horse"
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > my opinion is even simpler - ScummVM is not significant enough to warrant a > single word of this discussion I think it was worth having. We will make a recommendsation, and I hope that will help the distros converge. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > agreed - but there are good reasons to prefer the logical approach I disagree in a general way with this approach. It consists of rigidity for the sake of rigidity. This is an issue where we are dealing with various other people and hoping they will follow our decisions. That means we must make judgments based on the situation, NOT just on a rigid rule. > for one, decisions based on logic are objectively verifiable, and they can be > decided in a finite amount of time - decisions relying on judgments are > subjective, and can drag on indefinitely That is not important in these cases. If we don't come to a clear conclusion about a program like ScummVM, we simply do nothjing. > for every similar instance, it becomes a sisyphusian task There will not be so many -- we will only bother with the programs that people bring to our attention. And we don't need to re-evaluate them unless there are is a pressing case to do so. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 10:20:28PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > ... it is because to me, _no_ games are important enough to deserve such > > fuss - they are purely for entertainment; so they are inherently low > priority > > - from that perspective, we may as well be discussing how many "lady gaga" > > videos we can distribute - answer: "i dont care - we have bigger fish to > fry > > today" - "zero" is as good as any other amount - lets just decide, then > move on > > with due haste > > That is roughly what I think, too, but not quite exactly. > I think it is of some importance to have free games and to distribute them. > No users _need_ games, but many users _like_ games. > Offering them free games can (1) help them enjoy using free systems > and (2) illustrate that they can develop more free games. > > However, that is not pertinent to ScummVM. Distributing ScummVM > has at best a minimal relationship to making free games more available. > > Basically, John's argument makes a mountain out of a molehill, takes a > gram of that mountain, and makes inflates that to a mountain again. > Unsubscribing based on this. The above is not an argument at all, and in no way helped advance the conversation toward a logical, evidence-based conclusion. I really don't care that much about ScummVM -- I care about a sound process for making decisions about the application of the FSF's guidelines, which this is not. -john
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
Hello, Richard Stallman writes: [...] > The Steel Sky license requires packaging a "larger & possibly commercial > software distribution" with it. That is not a trivial requirement. > > A trivial packaging requirement is ok because it is trivial. > A burdensome packaging requirement is not ok. > > Have I explained clearly? Yes, thank you! Best regards, Gio' -- Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] There is a significant difference between these two licenses. You can satisfy the SIL font license by packaging _any_ program with the font. Even a short program. That is easy and painless. We can consider it a trivial requirement. The Steel Sky license requires packaging a "larger & possibly commercial software distribution" with it. That is not a trivial requirement. A trivial packaging requirement is ok because it is trivial. A burdensome packaging requirement is not ok. Have I explained clearly? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
El 2023-06-24 10:58, mals...@mailo.com escribió: > Hi Esteban, > > On 24/06/23 22.19, Esteban Ordóñez wrote: > [...] >> > I cannot find such mailing list in >> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/ >> >> I could not find gnu-prog-discuss in this page either: >> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo > > I am sure it is here https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-prog-discuss. "This list is an internal list to the GNU project. Only active GNU programmers and maintainers may join."
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
El 2023-06-24 10:58, mals...@mailo.com escribió: > Hi Esteban, > > On 24/06/23 22.19, Esteban Ordóñez wrote: > [...] >> > I cannot find such mailing list in >> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/ >> >> I could not find gnu-prog-discuss in this page either: >> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo > > I am sure it is here https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-prog-discuss. Thanks Ade. It was not in the listing. But it is on the link which you post. :-)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
Hi Esteban, On 24/06/23 22.19, Esteban Ordóñez wrote: [...] > I cannot find such mailing list in > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/ I could not find gnu-prog-discuss in this page either: https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo I am sure it is here https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-prog-discuss. Sincerely yours, Ade
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
El 2023-06-24 10:09, Esteban Ordóñez escribió: > El 2023-06-22 20:45, Richard Stallman escribió: > >> Each such discussion is long and burdensome. Just now we are >> discussing Cargo. Let's not start another one now! >> >> Let's finish with Cargo and then take up another, on gnu-prog-discuss. > > > I cannot find such mailing list in > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/ I could not find gnu-prog-discuss in this page either: https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
El 2023-06-22 20:45, Richard Stallman escribió: > Each such discussion is long and burdensome. Just now we are > discussing Cargo. Let's not start another one now! > > Let's finish with Cargo and then take up another, on gnu-prog-discuss. I cannot find such mailing list in https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I am leaning toward making a statement in the appropriate place: ScummVM is obsolete technology, and hardly used for anything except running old nonfree games, so it contributes nothing significant to the Free World. People who want to develop free games have much better platforms to choose from. Therefore, we urge free distros to omit it, and to explain why they do so. This is not a rule. When we discuss it, let's discuss it as a "rule", ok? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > But what I'm concerned here is more the long term side effects of a > rule that requires to weight the usefulness of software and use cases I see your point -- if we made this a rigid requirement _on us_ to find programs which mainly lead to nonfree software and rule on them, and if this rule called for evaluating an exact criterion, it would be difficult. Instead I suggest we evaluate the cases that come to our attention, by a less exact criterion, and seem worth bothering with. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Since most of the docker images are not FSDG compliant, do we remove > Docker completely? Let's not rush into a discussion of Docker now. That discussion will take time and attention. We do not know enough about Docker and its usage to reach any conclusions. (You seem to know something about it, but that knowledge has not been stated here, so _we_ do not know it.) Anyway, the right place for those discussions is gnu-prog-discuss, not here. There are many package managers that have such problems and we will have to find a fix for each one. But these fixes may not be similar. Each such discussion is long and burdensome. Just now we are discussing Cargo. Let's not start another one now! Let's finish with Cargo and then take up another, on gnu-prog-discuss. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 22:57:42 -0400 Richard wrote: > I never saw any mail about that topic, but it is worth thinking about > in hope of reaching some conclusion. i see - i guess someone CC'ed you later - note the thread subject: "Adding some scummvm game(s) to the List ..." it would be prudent to decide that first - IMHO, the next discussion topic that should lead to, is "how to better maintain the (long-neglected) List"
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 22:55:29 -0400 Richard wrote: > The question is not whether ScummVM false into the category of "0 free > games need it" or "1 or more free games need it". agreed - but there are good reasons to prefer the logical approach for one, decisions based on logic are objectively verifiable, and they can be decided in a finite amount of time - decisions relying on judgments are subjective, and can drag on indefinitely - if decisions must be re-evaluated for every similar instance, it becomes a sisyphusian task - that is quite important when we are dealing with a pool of many thousands of softwares, any of which may have subjective criticisms secondly, the subjective approach is what we have now, with common issues going unresolved for years - it is also, why we have FSDG distros arriving at conflicting conclusions, regarding which software are fit and which are not On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 22:55:29 -0400 Richard wrote: > The question is whether the free games that need ScummVM are > significant enpugh to change the judgment from "basically this is a > way of running old nonfree games" to "this makes senss in the Free > World." my opinion is even simpler - ScummVM is not significant enough to warrant a single word of this discussion i can understand the need of that deliberation for popular or "high-profile" software - i propose that the microsoft dotnet suite is one of those, which has never been discussed - it would pass the threshold of "1 or more free clients exist"; but "does the free world need it?" is dubious and highly subjective if taken on a one-by-one basis, this discussion is exemplary of the inefficiency of the subjective approach, per the desirability/work-load ratio, which i use to decide which to keep, which to fix, and which to discard - discussions such as this, weigh in on the work-load factor, while the desirability of ScummVM decreases with each passing "gaming aeon" (roughly 5 years)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
Hello, Richard Stallman writes: [...] > > ruben also suggested that such licenses are already deemed > > acceptable, referring to the precedent case of the OFL fonts > > license > > What is the license condition in question? What are its words? > That may be a topic I can resolve, given the facts. on June 14 [1] I added some details about the secific licensing terms, this is a renewed version of my previous message, sorry for the repetition. the note on the GNU license list on SIL OFL 1.1 [2] states: --8<---cut here---start->8--- The Open Font License (including its original release, version 1.0) is a free copyleft license for fonts. Its only unusual requirement is that when selling the font, you must redistribute it bundled with some software, rather than alone. Since a simple Hello World program will satisfy the requirement, it is harmless. --8<---cut here---end--->8--- this is the relevant text regardind the selling conditions in the SIL Open Font License 1.1 [3]: --8<---cut here---start->8--- 1) Neither the Font Software nor any of its individual components, in Original or Modified Versions, may be sold by itself. 2) Original or Modified Versions of the Font Software may be bundled, redistributed and/or sold with any software, provided that each copy contains the above copyright notice and this license. These can be included either as stand-alone text files, human-readable headers or in the appropriate machine-readable metadata fields within text or binary files as long as those fields can be easily viewed by the user. --8<---cut here---end--->8--- the relevant text from the game Beneath a Steel Sky v.1.2 [4] license (one of the games in scummVM extras source folder) is this: --8<---cut here---start->8--- 2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger & possibly commercial software distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk). You must provide proper attribution and ensure this readme and all associated copyright notices, and disclaimers are left intact. 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes reselling the game as an individual item. --8<---cut here---end--->8--- No doubt both are (very) poorly worded from a legal point of view but AFAIU the "Beneath a Steel Sky v.1.2" license have the same **legal** effect of the SIL OFL 1.1 Best regards, Giovanni. [1] message-id:87sfauff66@xelera.eu [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html.en#SILOFL [3] https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/License:OFL-1.1 [4] https://sourceforge.net/projects/scummvm/files/extras/Beneath%20a%20Steel%20Sky/bass-cd-1.2.zip/download -- Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > the original topic was about the games, currently distributed by some FSDG > distros, with a license which is _possibly_ non-free - we have yet to decide > that is indeed the case I never saw any mail about that topic, but it is worth thinking about in hope of reaching some conclusion. > ruben also suggested that such licenses are already deemed > acceptable, referring to the precedent case of the OFL fonts > license What is the license condition in question? What are its words? That may be a topic I can resolve, given the facts. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > but then ruben offered an example of one libre game which does exist for > ScummVM, which would resolve ScummVM's loneliness problem, if it has one I don't think that is the right way to understand this issue. It's a judgment call, not a logic problem. The question is not whether ScummVM false into the category of "0 free games need it" or "1 or more free games need it". The question is whether the free games that need ScummVM are significant enpugh to change the judgment from "basically this is a way of running old nonfree games" to "this makes senss in the Free World." There is no sharp line between the two. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > To do that I also documented if there were known free tools to build > programs for the emulators, or what work was missing (reviewing > software like the games under free licenses mentioned before, what was > missing to make FSDG distros work on gaming consoles, etc). > I've also added well know emulators (like qemu) that have no issues as > it's also good to remind people that some emulators are perfectly fine. This sounds like an important step forward. Would you like to develop that (with advice from others such as Bill Auger and me) into general advice about deciding whether an emulator is good to include? Is this kind of issue really limited to emulators? There are other kinds of programs which are platforms to run other programs, and I think that they would all raise similar issues -- though perhaps there is an empirical tendency for emulators to be used for running nonfree programs. Perhaps you can generalize it to be about programs with a certain structure of use cases, rather than "emulators". > > of course the option remains to write some new software for those > > emulators yourself; but practically speaking, that requires learning > > some specialized esoteric programming language or machine code for > > those obsolete CPUs - the use-case of playing the many readily > > available games, is itself very small - the use-case of writing new > > software for those machines is much smaller, as to be negligible IMHO > > - i contend that unless the distro offers some free software for use > > with the free tool, the presence of the free tool suggests its most > > popular use-case (acquiring some from a third-party which does not > > follow the FSDG) > The way to go here is indeed probably to review applications and games > that are under free licenses to make sure that they can be built and > run with 100% free software. If they are packaged the emulator could > even be a bit hidden when possible by for instance making a script or > .desktop files to launch the game inside the emulator directly, so > users would just see the emulator as a dependency like any other > dependency and not directly interact with it. This suggests to me that the criterion for making this judgment should be the existence of used and maintained free applications that depend on that emulator or platform for their use. > Another way would be, if I was wrong about the FSDG, to inform users > that none of the third party repositories are vetted by the > distribution, and still try to document at least 100% free repositories > somewhere (like on the Libreplanet wiki, in some FSF/GNU article, > on distributions wiki, etc). To include an emulator or package manager in a distro is one thing. To include (virtually) lots of nonfree programs that run on it is quite another. Merely warning users that it tends to lead to installing nonfree programs is not enough. We clearly have the duty to change things so that the emulator or package manager _does not_ lead people into installing these nonfree dependent packages. That's why I raised the question of how to do that with Cargo. Each time we fix one of these problems, it will give us a good opportunity to point out the difference between free software and open source, to a subcommunity that probably has not paid attention to it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 22:10:36 -0400 Richard wrote: > The proposed action > under discussion is to state officially that ScummVM has a problem. we seem to have lost focus - this thread need a reboot the original topic was about the games, currently distributed by some FSDG distros, with a license which is _possibly_ non-free - we have yet to decide that is indeed the case we then speculated that there may be no libre games known to be compatible with ScummVM; and in that case, _maybe_ ScummVM itself becomes dubious - we can not seem to agree on that either; but that is not worth discussing yet - that is predicated on a conclusion that no libre games exist; which has not yet been concluded from there, it leaped to a proposal to "state officially that ScummVM has a problem" but then ruben offered an example of one libre game which does exist for ScummVM, which would resolve ScummVM's loneliness problem, if it has one ruben also suggested that such licenses are already deemed acceptable, referring to the precedent case of the OFL fonts license if we had stayed on topic, and concluded in the first place, that the game license is acceptable, the engine would never have been in question - without a resolution to the original topic, the game engine was a red herring so we should return to the original topic - is the "no-selling" license of "BASS" acceptable or not - if it is acceptable, nothing remains to discuss - if it is not acceptable, we should move to the original proposal (add it to the list fo software to avoid) - that would be good progress; because that itself is another important topic to discuss - namely: that list is dreadfully out-dated and needs a total review
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > there probably are no replacements for it's _precise_ feature-set; because it's > precise feature-set is limited to that one style of "point-and click" game, > which has gone "out of vogue" many years ago - however, modern game engines > are versatile, supporting most any style of game - if someone wanted to make a > new one, any of the newer actively-maintained game engines could replicate > ScummVM's feature-set, albeit without support for obsolete hardware I think I was distracted when I asked about this. ScummVM's unmaintained state is not the crucial flaw in it. What makes it effectively useless in the Free World is that its job is to run nonfree games. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > but again, rubuen has suggested that GNU has already accepted licenses of that > sort - ie: we are yet to determine whether or not it is a non-free license, > per the FSDG Please ask him to give details. To think about those cases, we need the details of what happened in those cases. Maybe we made a mistake then, or maybe there is a subtle difference between the cases. Only with details can we tell. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > But what I'm concerned here is more the long term side effects of a > rule that requires to weight the usefulness of software and use cases > because it's not always easy to do and not everybody has the same > knowledge of how different computing fields use specific software due > to people having different area of expertise. You're criticizing a hypothetical strict general rule, but that's an extreme response which no one is arguing for. The proposed action under discussion is to state officially that ScummVM has a problem. Exactly what would be incumbent on each free distro is not yet decided. When you say what the hypothetical rule would "require", I am not sure what that means. Who would the requirement be placed on? On the free distros? On the GNU Project leaders? Are you talking about what we, the people in this discussion, ought to do in future cases of programs that people ask us to think about? I would call that a duty, not a rule. We have no need to specify in detail or rigidly how we will deal with these cases. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Fine, but not having ScummVM packaged would add several steps before 1. The > amount of steps matters. Just because there are still several steps > required does not mean that adding more steps has no impact. To inflict an hour of extra work, once per computer, on the members of a cult following of a retrocomputing emulator for running nonfree games is, after all, a rather small issue. Unless an issue is of no significance, this is not enough to sway it. We have found no reason to consider ScummVM's inclusion in free distros to be a good thing, but there remains the question of whether its inclusion is harmful enough to state a position or rule, and if so, what that should say. A rule not to include it would be the strongest possible response, but a software response might be better. I thimk that a stated recommendation to omit ScummVM might be a good measure to take now. It could refer to the documentation's promotion of nonfree games, that you cited, and say that at least that promotion should not be in the distro. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > ... it is because to me, _no_ games are important enough to deserve such > fuss - they are purely for entertainment; so they are inherently low priority > - from that perspective, we may as well be discussing how many "lady gaga" > videos we can distribute - answer: "i dont care - we have bigger fish to fry > today" - "zero" is as good as any other amount - lets just decide, then move on > with due haste That is roughly what I think, too, but not quite exactly. I think it is of some importance to have free games and to distribute them. No users _need_ games, but many users _like_ games. Offering them free games can (1) help them enjoy using free systems and (2) illustrate that they can develop more free games. However, that is not pertinent to ScummVM. Distributing ScummVM has at best a minimal relationship to making free games more available. Basically, John's argument makes a mountain out of a molehill, takes a gram of that mountain, and makes inflates that to a mountain again. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 02:58:33 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > we are yet to determine whether or not it is a non-free license, per the FSDG this is a good thing BTW - this is the first instance where ive noticed more than two distros represented in any discussion on this mailing list - there seems to be three distros interested in this discussion now - that itself is a positive outcome IMHO
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 23:07:48 -0400 Richard wrote: > Guix is supposed to be entirely free software. > How can they justify the inclusion of these games, > they being nonfree? i suspect that the most distros distributing these games relied on debian's judgment, that they were fit for debian's DFSG; because debian usually does a thorough job - however, debian uses different guidelines than GNU - it is only recently that anyone has contested those licenses - this may be one of those instance exhibiting the subtle differences between the mostly-compatible guidelines of different distros but again, rubuen has suggested that GNU has already accepted licenses of that sort - ie: we are yet to determine whether or not it is a non-free license, per the FSDG
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 23:07:34 -0400 Richard wrote: > Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for ScummVM? there probably are no replacements for it's _precise_ feature-set; because it's precise feature-set is limited to that one style of "point-and click" game, which has gone "out of vogue" many years ago - however, modern game engines are versatile, supporting most any style of game - if someone wanted to make a new one, any of the newer actively-maintained game engines could replicate ScummVM's feature-set, albeit without support for obsolete hardware
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Guix is supposed to build everything from sources, right? > It usually does. People in guix-devel report already > pointed that the games was missing source code, so I added more infos > about that. Guix is supposed to be entirely free software. How can they justify the inclusion of these games, they being nonfree? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > i dont intend to belittle the absolute value of scummvm (nor the 8-track > cartridge) - this was only to put it in the relevant context - the > proliferation of software freedom, coupled with the prevalent fetish for > novelty and upstream activity, ensures that any 30+ year old unmaintained > software, if it has a still desirable feature-set, will be superseded by an > actively maintained equivalent and/or superior replacement, and preferred for > equivalent tasks Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for ScummVM? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > What an exaggeration! Writing a free game is a lot of work. The > > small preparatory task of getting and installing ScummVM would hardly > > discourage anyone who is prepared to do that work. > > > Says who? If I have an hour to sit down and work on something, I would > like to spend that hour working on the thing, not downloading and > building dependencies, and then the next Friday when I have an hour, To write a free game takes a lot more than an hour. It probably takes at least hundreds. One hour of preparatory work is not likely to discourage a person who seriously intends to do such a large job. Please don't make a nountain out of this molehill. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
Hi Denis, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli writes: [...] >> Guix is supposed to build everything from sources, right? > It usually does. People in guix-devel report already > pointed that the games was missing source code, so I added more infos > about that. > > I also made the case for packaging draci-historie or development tools > or removing ScummVM. thank you for your work! other people following this discussion may be interested in the details reported by Denis on guix-devel: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-06/msg00072.html Happy hacking! -- Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 22:13:42 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > Can you get the answer out of Guix itself? I will try to do that. Before people were waiting for a decision from this mailing list but it seems that the discussion moved to the guix-devel mailing list and progressed there (In the "FSDG issues of SCUMMVM-based games" thread). I didn't look at updates in the Trisquel one yet. > Guix is supposed to build everything from sources, right? It usually does. People in guix-devel report already pointed that the games was missing source code, so I added more infos about that. I also made the case for packaging draci-historie or development tools or removing ScummVM. Denis. pgpCke8rqY3oV.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 22:30:48 -0400 John wrote: > I was answering bill's claims about how > many people are still interested in it. i understood you - i would just add that 2009 was almost 15 years ago - in gamer years, that is 3 aeons ago - the underlying technology is 10 aeons old - i trust that most readers of this list do not have such a myopic view of software; but gamer culture does but that is not the reason why i am so inclined to dismiss these games and the engine - it is because to me, _no_ games are important enough to deserve such fuss - they are purely for entertainment; so they are inherently low priority - from that perspective, we may as well be discussing how many "lady gaga" videos we can distribute - answer: "i dont care - we have bigger fish to fry today" - "zero" is as good as any other amount - lets just decide, then move on with due haste my dismissiveness is not absolute, only a matter of priorities - the desirability/workload ratio of each game is typically very low - in my experience auditing software licensing, games are time-bandits in only one instance, was i successful to convince the upstream to clarify the licensing - unfortunately, he had forgotten where he got most of the images from; so that never actually happened - he promised to accept submissions, if someone wanted to replace all of the images; but stated that he was not likely to do anything more that one was a relatively _positive_ experience - game authors/maintainers are typically dismissive of licensing deficiencies, out-of-hand; and some readily become indignant and/or obscene - in another instance, the bug report was closed within 15 minutes, with a single remark from a maintainer: "F--- You!" (my dashes) - that was not an obscure game either - it is one of the most popular libre games in another instance, the author refused to clarify the license, because he was convinced that the game's mere existence, put it automatically and implicitly under the same license as the game engine that it runs on - as proof, he directed me to the game engine's wiki, where the game's release was originally announced - those release notes had no mention of any license, nor did the source code; but in the authors mind, that announcement itself, because it was on that wiki, was sufficient licensing for the game files the liberation prospects are even worse for decades old games - for those, it is likely impossible to contact the authors - i have come to conclusion, that it is unwise to spend any significant amount of time on any games, given the average success rate and time consumed
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 08:51:19PM +0200, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:37:39 -0400 > John Sullivan wrote: > > > What an exaggeration! Writing a free game is a lot of work. The > > > small preparatory task of getting and installing ScummVM would > > > hardly discourage anyone who is prepared to do that work. > > > > > > > Says who? If I have an hour to sit down and work on something, I would > > like to spend that hour working on the thing, not downloading and > > building dependencies, and then the next Friday when I have an hour, I > > have to see if the dependencies are updated, and rebuild them > > manually. And dependencies interrelate -- one of the main reasons we > > have distros in the first place. Manually maintaining some things on > > a system while other things are packaged is a notoriously fraught > > thing to do. Packaging is an important and valuable convenience that > > eliminates a lot of yak shaving. > For ScummVM you have to do that anyway. You need to: > (1) Build the IDE for AGI I mentionned. > (2) Find a template for it and audit the license. > (3) Start building a game > Fine, but not having ScummVM packaged would add several steps before 1. The amount of steps matters. Just because there are still several steps required does not mean that adding more steps has no impact. > > The discussion here is dismissing the relevance and importance of this > > *private* software. This is the dangerous path you go down when > > banning software from endorsed distros just because it doesn't have > > released, packaged free software for it. This private software could > > be released in the future as free -- but even if it isn't, > > facilitating private software experimentation and development is a > > free software value. > As I understand there was no general rule made for that nor about > forcing distros to remove software like wine that has perfectly valid > free software use cases despite also having more nonfree software that > works with it. > If we're not discussing forcing distros to remove a package like this in order to still be endorsed, then I have no issue. -john
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 09:33:37PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Citations needed. Being a fan of something and enjoying playing with it > > does cannot be measured based on released software -- that is a much > > higher bar. I don't know where the update dates come from on the Scum > > site next to the proprietary games, but there are plenty there 2014+. > > Atari published games based on it in 2009. > > This is hardly a shred of a reason to consider a program important. > A cult following is not a reason to overlook a moral defect. > Moral defect? It is free software. It can be used to make more free software. It can be used to make private, undistributed software. As we've been told, there is at least some free software distributed and shared for it. I'm not appealing to the cult following as a justification for anything -- I was answering bill's claims about how many people are still interested in it. -john
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Is it because they lack source code or because their license is nonfree? > I need that information for convincing Guix to remove them. Can you get the answer out of Guix itself? Guix is supposed to build everything from sources, right? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 08:47:10 -0400 bill-auger wrote: > then again, that entire $3000 computer system lol ... along with all 12 freebie CDs, is not worth the cost of a blank CD and shipping today (just to put this in perspective)
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:37:21 +0200 Giovanni wrote: > Who is going to decice if a similar note as > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html.en#SILOFL should be added "who" is not so important, at least not at this point - if that change needs to be made, then probably it would need to be approved by GNU webmasters and RMS - but that list is not intended to be exhaustive - it is for the most widely-used licenses - this one is not widely-used - this small handful of games is barely relevant, except that they are distributed by some FSDG distros this thread is only trying to decide if these games should be added to the list of known-nonfree software, which distro maintainers are likely to come across i admit, they do look at lot alike; but they both look to me like "explicitly non-free licenses" on the one hand: surely no one can argue that "you may not sell this ..." permits freedom #0 but on the other hand: poorly worded or not, non-free or not, it would be a shame to exclude these games based on that prohibition A) it is utterly trivial for anyone to avoid that clause - eg: simply pack-in some random OFL font along with the game, and *presto* it is an aggregate B) these games are not worth the cost of a blank CD and shipping - that is the usual reason why commercial game authors "set them out to pasture" (because even they can not sell them anymore) of course "B" is arguable - but how's this for a data-point - i got my copy of "beneath a steel sky" as a freebie pack-in with my windows95 computer, along with a dozen other CDs (which i didnt even know were part of the package, until i got it home) - that was its value in 1995 (nearly nothing, a bonus gift like a pot-holder or fridge magnet) - i doubt if anyone would pay more than the cost of shipping, even for my original copy with its accumulated "authentic nostalgia value" then again, that entire $3000 computer system
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
Hello, it's very hard to follow this very long thread so please forgive me if I miss something already discussed Ruben Rodriguez writes: > On 4/25/23 21:58, bill-auger wrote: >> yes, that the game engine is libre; but the games mentioned in the OP all >> have >> the "no-selling" license [...] > On the topic of the games with the "may distribute it in aggregate [...] > commercial software distribution", those are under a badly written but > sufficiently free license. This position is backed by this similar case: > > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#SILOFL > > SIL Open Font License 1.1 > "[...] when selling the font, you must redistribute it bundled with some > software, rather than alone. Since a simple Hello World program will > satisfy the requirement, it is harmless". The requirement is the same. I just want to add that the relevant text from SIL OFL 1.1 is this: --8<---cut here---start->8--- The OFL allows the licensed fonts to be used, studied, modified and redistributed freely as long as they are not sold by themselves. The fonts, including any derivative works, can be bundled, embedded, redistributed and/or sold with any software provided that any reserved names are not used by derivative works. --8<---cut here---end--->8--- while the relevant text from the game Beneath a Steel Sky v.1.2 license (one of the games in scummVM extras source folder) is this: --8<---cut here---start->8--- 2) You may charge a reasonable copying fee for this archive, and may distribute it in aggregate as part of a larger & possibly commercial software distribution (such as a Linux distribution or magazine coverdisk). You must provide proper attribution and ensure this readme and all associated copyright notices, and disclaimers are left intact. 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes reselling the game as an individual item. --8<---cut here---end--->8--- No doubt both are (very) poorly worded from a legal point of view but AFAIU the "Beneath a Steel Sky v.1.2" license have the same **legal** effect of the SIL OFL 1.1 that is a free software license: you may not charge a fee (sell) the work by themselves but only included in a derivate work. Who is going to decice if a similar note as https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html.en#SILOFL should be added for the "Beneath a Steel Sky v.1.2 license" or better for all (non copyleft) licenses that substantially states "you may not sell the work by themselves but only included in a derivate work."? Thanks for the attention. Best regards, Giovanni. [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/scummvm/files/extras/Beneath%20a%20Steel%20Sky/bass-cd-1.2.zip/download -- Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines".
On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 01:53:16 +0200 Denis wrote: > - The game is GPLv2 but I'm unsure if we have a license or not for the > game data. i would not expect so for any game; but i do believe that the authors usually intended so as i alluded previously, games are notorious for sloppy licensing - what ive seen often, is like the classic case (like these scummvm games) of a once commercial proprietary game, which was "put out to pasture" by the game company when the business went belly-up - the authors simply slap a GPL or permissive license in the package and let it go - that practice is only slightly less prevalent for games that were originally released under a free license games rarely itemize or account for the licensing of data files, images, sounds, etc - though it is likely that the author fully intended the entire package to be freely-licensed, that is rarely explicit or even obvious so the question is: should we take on face value, these cows set out to pasture with a "Take me! I'm Free!" sign around their necks? - or do we reject them, because all copyrightable files are not explicitly associated with a license? this question itself is worth discussing on its own merit; because the majority of _apparently_ freely-licensed games have this deficiency
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 19:30:13 +0200 Denis wrote: > Is it because they lack source code or because their license is nonfree? > I need that information for convincing Guix to remove them. as i remember, despite the lengthy discussion (mostly about the engine), the only conclusive evidence presented was in the OP from april - this issue does seem overdue for a conclusion On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 01:24:57 +0200 Denis wrote: > Its license contains the following[1]: > > 3) You may not charge a fee for the game itself. This includes > > reselling the game as an individual item. i assume that source code is available, because those games are in debian 'main' - but if that quote is part of the license, the license is clearly non-free; so the source code can be ignored is this our conclusion? - or does this reduce to case of the fonts license mentioned by ruben yesterday?
Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Adding some scummvm game(s) to the "List of software that does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines"
On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 21:32:29 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: > Sorry, the meaning is not clear to me. Whan you say "the way to go > would be", tu cherces à réaliser quel but ? Quand tu dis, "make sure > that", est-ce que ça signifie "établir le fait que des programmes > libres tournent déjà sur Scummvm", ou est-ce "développer des > programmes libres qui ont besoin de Scummvm, s'il n'y en a pas > encore"? I mean, making sure that any kind of existing free program (a full featured game or a hello world) can run inside ScummVM. If I take Guile instead of scummVM if I copy the following lines in hello.scm and run 'guile hello.scm' I've a valid existing free software program that runs inside Guile: > (display "This program is released under the CC-0 license\n") > (display "Hello world\n") But nobody is able to provide a similar proof for ScummVM because providing that proof requires substantial work, and it could turn out that it require a huge amount of work that include reverse engineering file formats (by reading the scummVM source code and trying to produce valid files for scummVM), or trying to build software that is complicated to build, etc. So because of that we don't even know if the "private programming" use case that was advocated by John really works without substantial effort. So unless a proof is produced that somehow it is possible to run free software in scummVM, the only use case of scummVM are either running nonfree software or running software of unknown freedom that would likely be mistakenly understood as free instead of "unknown" by users. We also have an additional problem that I didn't know about when writing the mails you quoted: to run a modified version of existing programs or to write your own you might need to patch ScummVM to add the checksums of the binary you produced. Denis. pgp7YwkSfwJ76.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
