Re: [GNC] Another "multi-account" logical issue - any advice on how to register this?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Flavio,

> I will think about whether I want to consider the shipping expense as part
> of the value of the goods I bought or not. I understand the difference and
> keeping shipping costs separated from the goods value looks correct to me.
> However, I always considered shipping costs as part of the goods value. I
> thought "I paid 220 for this guitar, even though 20 are for shipping, so to
> me it's worth 220" (I know this is wrong, because shipping doesn't add
> value to the goods).

It is not wrong. Shipping does add to the value. The difference between 
potatoes in a field and potatoes in a store is basically shipping. You pay more 
for potatoes in a store because there is a cost to get them there.

You paid $200 for the guitar and $20 for shipping. If you sold the guitar for 
$200, are you breaking even?

The book value of an asset is the cost to acquire and deploy that asset. 
Shipping is clearly an acquisition or deployment cost.
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] Cash Account

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi R, 

>> >> Isn't that just a bit like stating that "your brother is a person, and 
>> >> your
>> >> wife is a person, so what's the difference? They are all persons?" I would
>> >> suggest that there is a difference .

>> Yes. Exactly. What is it? -- not your biology ridicule, but the original
>> question I asked. Does GnuCash treat "Cash", "Bank", and "Asset" differently,
>> or are these just "shortcuts" for users that don't realize that, as far as
>> accounting is concerned, assets are assets?

> My point is that your brother and your wife are a sub-category of the higher
> class "person" (or "human").

... and Klaatu lands his ship and asks, "What is reason for the difference? 
They are both human.". 

"Cash", Bank" and "Asset" are all assets and I don't know why it is worthwhile 
to make that distinction among different "sexes" of assets, so I asked. The 
question is less ridiculous than your response. 

> What do you mean by "differently"? Just by having different sub-classes, they
> are treated "differently"?

If I wasn't clear, the question was, "Cash is an asset. What makes it a special 
kind of asset, justifying a special type of account?" The answer is, "Nothing". 
It is not a special type of account; it is a special case of user presentation. 

> As I noted, the column headings are different (if you are not using formal
> accounting labels) and the list of types are different -- those are
> "differences", but perhaps not quite what you're looking for.

Where did you note this? My first encounter was from Ross Reedstrom, and it is 
actually the answer to my question. They are treated differently to compensate 
for users with little or no accounting sophistication 
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] Cash Account

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Stephen and R,

>> Isn't that just a bit like stating that "your brother is a person, and your
>> wife is a person, so what's the difference? They are all persons?" I would
>> suggest that there is a difference .

Yes. Exactly. What is it? -- not your biology ridicule, but the original 
question I asked. Does GnuCash treat "Cash", "Bank", and "Asset" differently, 
or are these just "shortcuts" for users that don't realize that, as far as 
accounting is concerned, assets are assets?



>> I hope this is helpful.

Not really ...


 
> I think you missed the thrust of his question -- namely, how does
> GnuCash treat these differently?

Yes. Thanks for the clarification.
-- 
Chris. 
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[GNC] Cash Account

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

These are GnuCash questions; not accounting questions: 


* How do "Cash", "Bank" and "Asset" accounts different from each other? 
They are all assets ... 
* How do "Liability" and "Credit Card" accounts different from each other? 
They are all liabilities ... 


Are these distinctions without a difference? 
Are they here because most users might not know that a "Bank" account is an 
asset and a "Credit Card" is a liability? 
Does GnuCash treat them differently? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Another "multi-account" logical issue - any advice on how to register this?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Bruce,

> I'm going to have to read that publication. I am selling household items on
> eBay and think I would be considered a hobbiest. Sales will be less than 4k
> this year - and only if I were to sell a lot in 4th quarter. Can anyone
> recommend a VERY introductory guide to hobby and small business taxes in
> the US? I always use a "tax guy" in March, but if I can read and learn and
> avoid doing something incredibly short-sighted, that would be a good start

Create an asset account called "Bruce's Bargains". Everything you plan to sell, 
goes into this account. If it is something that you already own, then you add 
it with an amount you think is correct and that money as attributed to some 
Equity account. I would create a new equity account called, "Bruce's 
Beginning". It amounts to your investment in the activity. When you buy 
something for re-sale, it is entered in the asset account at the price you 
paid, plus a split for any of the expenses you incurred to ship it, or fix it, 
or fetch it, or ... These are increases to the value of the item. When  you 
sell an item you "write it off", by recording the sale price as a new split in 
the original transaction and a final split entry to make the balance zero, This 
final split item is either "Gain on Sale" or "Loss on Sale" and it goes to 
"Bruce's Bargains - Income".
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] Another "multi-account" logical issue - any advice on how to register this?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Michael,

>> I concur in part. In a "hobby", expenses are no longer deductible to the 
>> extent
>> of income, as you said,
> 
> I did not say that. I said expenses not deductible beyond the extent of
> income (a hobby can generate a taxable profit but not a deducible loss).

Wow! I constructed a spectacularly ambiguous statement! Actually, it is not 
even ambiguous at all; it is just wrong. The scope of, "as you said", was 
intended to cover only the phrase, "deductible to the extent of income", but 
given the way I wrote that line, everybody will read, "... expenses are no 
longer deductible to the extent of income, ...". I certainly did not intend any 
misrepresentation.

It appears that Google has mislead me. I was "informed" that hobby expense 
deductiblity changed in 2018. Apparently I was misinformed. You are correct. As 
of 2022, Hobby expenses *are* deductible to the extent of hobby income. IRS Pub 
535, 2022, Page 7, Not-for-Profit Activities.
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text?
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Re: [GNC] Another "multi-account" logical issue - any advice on how to register this?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Michael,

A point of clarification:

> Here in the US if your hobby does produce an income, that IS taxable,
> but because a hobby, expenses count only toward reducing that income. In
> other words, losses from the hobby cannot be used to offset other
> income. For this reason, the tax folks will usually try to judge the
> activity as hobby if not making profits X years out of Y. Understand?
> YOU can end up owing them more taxes if "hobby" rather than business but
> never the other way around. So even if I planned the activity as a hobby
> I would want to keep the books correctly for a business.

I concur in part. In a "hobby", expenses are no longer deductible to the extent 
of income, as you said, however, if you have "hobby" income, then maybe you 
really have a nascent business. Who's to say? Account for the hobby like a 
business, and deduct expenses, to the extent of income. Be judicious. This is 
another reason why acquisition and deployment expenses are debited to the asset 
-- so they don't show as expenses until there is income corresponding to a 
sale. Of course expenses that are not related to asset acquisitions and 
deployment, like maybe a training course on restoration, would be a deductible 
expense. Of course, all the this shady "gray area" vanishes if your hobby is 
profitable.
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] Another "multi-account" logical issue - any advice on how to register this?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

   Hi David,
   If I bought a guitar for $500 and then spent $300 to have it shipped to
   me, I would most definitely want that recorded as an $800 guitar, so I
   would not mistakenly sell it to somebody who offered me $700 because it
   looked like a $200 profit.
   The book value of an asset is as the FASB says. It includes all the
   costs to procure and deploy an asset. There is a reason for that.
   Chris.
   Laboriously sent to you from my ... do you really care?
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Re: [GNC] Another "multi-account" logical issue - any advice on how to register this?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Stan,

> I would absolutely record shipping as an expense, not an asset. The
> asset has value after you receive it; the shipping is "used up" the
> moment the package arrives. Only things that still have value should be
> listed in Assets.

I respectfully disagree:

The Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) guidance that addresses the 
book value of an asset, including costs related to acquisition and deployment 
(such as shipping and installation), is covered in ASC 360, Property, Plant, 
and Equipment.

Under ASC 360, costs that should be included in the book value of an asset are 
those necessary to acquire the asset and prepare it for its intended use. This 
includes:

Purchase price
Direct costs of acquisition (e.g., shipping, handling, and installation)
Costs required to bring the asset to the location and condition necessary 
for it to be used in operations

These guidelines reflect that the book value (or carrying amount) of an asset 
is not just the purchase price but also any ancillary costs required to make 
the asset operational.
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] Entering my real estate and mortgage?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Flavio,

Your bank account "Opening Balance" is as of the beginning of this year, which 
includes the real estate purchase transactions from before that date. If you 
want to include those transactions explicitly, then you need to change your 
opening balance to remove their effect.

Alternatively, you can make your down payment from your "Owner's Equity", 
instead of your bank account, which is an accurate reflection of reality 
anyway. The difference between the asset value of the apartment and the 
liability of the loan is your equity. A+L+E = 0;  Asset(Apartment value) + 
Liability(Mortgage balance) + Equity(Sum of payments to principle) = 0
-- 
Chris. 

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Re: [GNC] Backup Solution - Linux Desktop to Synology NAS

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Fred,

>> I believe that this can be changed if you perform the magical and possibly
>> mythical NTFS configuration setting that preserves case sensitivity on
>> Windows systems ...
> 
> Just to note that it's not mythical. It's a per-directory setting (which
> you can only change on an empty - normally new - directory).
> 
> 

Well, that answers that! So, rsnapshot will work on both native Linux 
installations and WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux), as long as you "share" a 
directory from NTFS that has been suitably tenderized: fsutil.exe file 
setCaseSensitiveInfo  enable

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text?
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Re: [GNC] Backup Solution - Linux Desktop to Synology NAS

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks,

> I've been using rsnapshot for years, now, to do nightly, weekly, and
> monthly backups.

I concur. I will add that rsnapshot can also backup databases, but it needs a 
short script to do it. I'm willing to offer copies of my scripts, with 
explanations, if anybody is interested.

I also note that you may run into problems using rsnapshot on an NTFS 
filesystem mounted CIFS, meaning you are an SMB client. If you are "snapping" 
two files with names differentiated only by case, then these will collide on 
case insensitive filesystems, and you'll lose one of them. I believe that this 
can be changed if you perform the magical and possibly mythical NTFS 
configuration setting that preserves case sensitivity on Windows systems and 
then mount your CIFS shares on an NFS server, and then "reshare". Seems like a 
lot of work. Might be easier to go the other way and mount the ext4 file system 
on the Windows workstation, but you'll need non-Microsoft drivers to do it. I 
don't know if you can "share" such mount points.

The whole "case sensitive" vs "case preserving" is a a good way to spend a week 
and get nothing done. But it might be fun.



> what I'd LIKE is an offsite backup as well, but (1) purchasing the
> bandwidth and (2) the remote storage is probably more $$ than I want to
> spend.

Since you're using rsnapshot, which is simply a disciplined use of rsync, you 
need only the bandwidth to cover the day's changes, which usually turns out to 
be very little. You just need a friend who is willing to "host" your NAS and 
punch a hole in the firewall for you. In the alternative, position your NAS in 
a location for easy and quick access in the event of emergency evacuation, like 
the garage, or even an outdoor shed.
-- 
Chris.
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Re: [GNC] How to treat a sale which involves more accounts?

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks,

Pardon the interruption; I'm breaking into the middle of this conversation, so 
please forgive me if I misunderstand or repeat something that has already been 
discussed.

I believe the discussion is recording the acquisition of musical instruments 
and the occasional sale and how to account for that. I recommend an asset 
account, "Instruments", with a sub account for each instrument, which records 
the book value of each instrument. Remember the book value is the cost to 
acquire and *deploy* an asset, which would also include maintenance, so I would 
enter splits for "repairs", or "tuning", or "travel" anything else you might do 
that costs you. When it comes time to sell, you need to write off that asset 
and calculate the gain or loss on sale and apply that to "income".

Purchase:
Instruments:Flugelhorn  $2,000
Instruments:Expense:Travel  $150
Instruments:Expense:Repair  $50
Instruments:Expense:Maintentance$25
Visa Card   $2,225



Several years later, add another split
Instruments:Expense:Tune-upTravel   $75
Cash$75


The above activity is one transaction, that added a split as necessary, and 
maintained the book value of the instrument, which would now be $2,225 + $75 = 
$2,300



This is how you would record the sale for $3,500
Cash$3,500
Flugelhorn  $2,300 (Write off the asset, you no longer own it)
Gain on Sale$1,200 (credit to income, This could, of course, be a 
"Loss on Sale" which would debit income.
If different instruments are taxed differently, 
then that could appear here, as well, 
but tax is not typically an expense)


I hope I understood the problem and didn't just make a fool of myself answering 
a question nobody is asking.
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] "Help"

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

On my Fedora system I installed the gnucash-docs package: "yum install 
gnucash-docs", and that did exactly what you'd expect. When I tried to read any 
of them, I got nothing. The reason is my system was configured to use the "KDE 
Help Center" application, which didn't understand DocBooks, among other things. 
I needed to use the GNOME Help Center, "Yelp", which understands DocBooks. That 
works. 

There is one more trick. It is worthwhile, at least for GnuCash to make that 
the default. "xdg-mime default yelp.desktop x-scheme-handler/help". I suppose 
it might be worthwhile to produce "gnucash-kde-docs" and "gnucash-gnome-docs", 
unless somebody smarter than I am know how how to do both with one 
installation. I think it is just a matter of rendering the DocBooks into 
something KDE understands and updating the gnucash.desktop. 

Problem solved. Thanks for the help, 

Chris. 
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[GNC] Importing Accounts

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

I am importing accounts. 

The third step of the import dialog shows a row with column headers. Does my 
import CSV file have to use that *order*, or simply use those *names*? If 
"order" is discretionary, can I create a column mapping with the first row? 
Will the "Import Map Editor" do that for me? Traditionally, CSV can map columns 
in any arbitrary order, but I don't know how much I can assume about this 
process. 

Specifically, the import dialog shows these columns (Many of these are almost 
self-explanatory.): 

Type: Almost Self-explanatory. What are the precise keywords and where do I 
find them? 
Account Full Name: Is this simply documentation, or does the "Full Name" 
include "Par1:Par2:Acct"? 
Account Name: Self-explanatory 
Account Code: This looks like a number for creating numerical hierarchies. Can 
I ignore this, if I'm using "sub-accounts"? 
Description: Self-explanatory 
Account Color: Self-explanatory 
Notes: Self-explanatory 
Symbol: Can I assume this names portfolio instruments, and is not part of 
general ledger expense/income accounting? 
Namespace: Is this the parent path when creating sub-accounts? Will "import" 
create parents as necessary? 
Hidden: Self-explanatory 
Tax Info: This is obviously for export to tax-prep software. What are the 
permitted values, and where can I find them? 
Placeholder: Self-explanatory 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] "Help"

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Jim, 

> What exactly did you install, and how? Did you install a flatpack
> package named "gnucash-docs"? Something via apt-get? MacPorts port
> "gnucash-docs" on macOS? One of the downloadable documentation files
> from ?
I am running Fedora. I tried the naive approach: "yum install gnucash-docs" 
which installed gnucash--5.8-1.fc40.noarch. I see lots of docs in 
/usr/share/help//gnucash-[guide|manual], where  = 
"de","ja","pt","zh", & "C". "C" appears to be English. These are all "DocBook" 
format, so I see one of two problems: 

* /usr/share/help/C/gnucash-*/... Need to be rendered to a place and as a 
format accessible to the KDE Help utility 
* GnuCash need to call a help utility that can handle the "docbook" XML 
format. 

In either case, there must be some way to declare where to find the "Help". So, 
I'm confused about what the problem really is. 

* Have they not been rendered? 
* Are they in the "wrong", meaning an "unexpected" place? 
* Am I getting the wrong "Help" utility and if so, is there a better one? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] Importing Data

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi David, 

> The CSV importer can also work with tab separated data. There is a
> setup screen in which you can set the separator so there is no need to
> change it.
Yes. There was an option to change the separator, but "tab" was not one of the 
choices. See the dialog below. 

> The confusion may be that there are two import processes The "File ==>
> Import ==> Accounts" process imports an account tree structure that has
> been exported from either GnuCash or another program or just built up
> in a spreadshett.
Yes. Exactly. Among the differences is the rigidity of column headers. They 
seem to be defined, meaning I'm going to have to hack my accounts.IIF, and now, 
apparently, not only to satisfy field separators. 

Here is the "Account" process: 

So, I need to find the docs to tell me what these fields mean, and I'm going to 
have to hack my IIF to correct the separator and order of fields, at a minimum. 
It would probably be easiest to do that with a spreadsheet, but I'm still going 
to need those field explanations ... Any thoughts? 

> I am not familiar with the IIF format

I'm pretty sure it is simply a special case of the CSV, meaning a special set 
of columns. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] "Help"

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi David, 

> I usually find it easier to use the links to the docs on the GnuCash
> website and view them in a browser.
Possibly, but if this fairly basic feature is misconfigured and not working, 
what else have I misconfigured? 

Thanks for the help 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Importing Data

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Murugan, 

> Please refer the following link for the steps to import transactions
> [ https://lists.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-manual/trans-import.html |
> https://lists.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-manual/trans-import.html ]

As I have said, I'm importing "Accounts", not "Transactions" . These are 
different. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Importing Data

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

> There are couple of steps and queries

> 1.
> Create the account structure in GNC. you can import your existing structure if
> you have a file for the same

I was very much hoping that "File ==> Import ==> Accounts from CSV" would do 
that. 

> On the column mapping it is straight forward, the import window will allow you
> to map the columns in GNU.

Apparently not. I am not seeing the opportunity when I go to "File ==> Import 
==> Accounts from CSV" 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 
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[GNC] "Help"

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

I have installed "gnucash-docs", but there seems to be no benefit. Before I 
installed "gnucash-doc", "man gnucash" gave me a short, one page set of 
instructions and this did not change. I find I have 
/usr/share/doc/gnucash-docs/ but there are four files there and no manual 
pages. When I invoke "Help" from the application, I get generic Linux "Help" 
topics, but -- importantly -- no gnucash "Help". 

Can anybody give me "Help"? (Ha! Geeze! Sometimes I just crack myself up!) 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 

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[GNC] Importing Data

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

QuickBooks does not give up its data graciously, but it will export many things 
as an IIF -- "Intuit Interchange File", which is almost like a "CSV", except 
with "tab" instead of "comma". I can replace the "tab" with ";" and I'm good to 
go. Almost. The first line is a header to identify the fields of the subsequent 
lines in the file. GNC does not understand IIF, but does understand CSV, and 
IIF is just a specialized CSV. Since one of the things I can get from 
QuickBooks is a chart of accounts with current balance, I have a place to 
start, but I need to understand more than I do. 

How do I map the existing "column" headers in the erstwhile IIF to columns that 
GNC understands? How do I know what that mapping is? I can't just assert an 
account balance; there has to be a complimentary entry to "Equity:Opening 
Balance", so how does that happen? 

I'm almost ready to light this candle. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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[GNC] Inactive/Hidden accounts

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

   Hi Folks,
   Can I set an account inactive or hidden? As I flee QuickBooks I have a
   number of accounts that I no longer use and have hidden but I dare not
   delete them because it will require an adjusting entry somewhere to
   preserve "assets + liability + equity = zero"
   Thanks for the help,
   Chris.
   Laboriously sent to you from my ... do you really care?
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Re: [GNC] Multiple accounts

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Robert, 

>> It looks like I can only see one account at a time. I can't find a way to 
>> open
>> several for cross-reference and comparison. Am I missing something?
> The accounts should be as tabs. ...
"Why, Yes, Chris. You're missing something." 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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[GNC] Multiple accounts

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

It looks like I can only see one account at a time. I can't find a way to open 
several for cross-reference and comparison. Am I missing something? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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[GNC] TXF

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

Does GnuCash export data in TXF format for inclusion in tax preparation 
software? This would require that I could label accounts according to their IRS 
form and form line number. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Mark, 

> I have ~some~ knowledge.
> In SQL, these are the 'tables' used for storage;

>> sqlite> .tables
>> accounts employees orders taxtables
>> billterms entries prices transactions
>> books gnclock recurrences vendors
>> budget_amounts gnucashew_vars schedxactions versions
>> budgets invoices slots
>> commodities jobs splits
>> customers lots taxtable_entries
> The .schema on the tables is pretty clear. The 'split's are stored in
> splits and transaction stored in transactions and so forth...

> What would you like to know?
I'm just stumbling around in the dark, picking up whatever bits of wisdom I can 
find. 

This was quite helpful, and I would have done it myself, had I a running 
example. I am a QuickBooks refugee and after reviewing dozens of offerings, I 
am beginning to conclude that GnuCash is probably the best alternative, the 
whole back-end issue not withstanding. I am not "running" because migration is 
a non-trivial process. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Robert, 

> One thing that all of the *SQL backends do provide over the flat XML file
> storage: accessing the data (*read-only!*) between runs of GnuCash is easier.
> Instead of either trying to parse the XML or using Python bindings to the
> GnuCash API, one can write code using SQL (in any language that supports SQL)
> to grab data to generate reports, etc. outside of the GnuCash framework. I
> believe at least one person on this list does exactly that.
Oh! Do I understand the GnuCash parses the data and stores it in database 
tables? --- like one table for each account? Or are all the rows going to be 
the same with each row being an accounting transaction "acct 1 $X.XX acct 2 
-$X.XX"? What about "splits"? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Jim, 

> Beware of confusion: the word "transaction" is already used on this list
> to mean an "accounting record of an exchange of value". But I suspect
> that here you use the word "transaction" to mean a "controlled and
> reliable change to data stored in a database".
Yes. They are similar. Both represent "atomic" updates, meaning "all or 
nothing". 

>> * Are transactions implemented? -- Let's assume, "Yes."
Let's assume, "No." (-: Apparently SQLite represent zero improvement over the 
flat file storage. 

Is there a way to update backing store anytime I make a change, and not 
periodically? It seems like leaving updates lying around in memory is a good 
way to lose updates when the dog pulls the plug out of the wall. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Roberts, 

> I found the best of both worlds is to use SQLite backend - because it is
> fastest and most portable - you just need to copy the file. It allows me to
> run quite complex reports from R using standard SQL approach. Even more - I
> made some bash scripts with SQL queries utilizing regexp support, that
> allowed me to quickly get some vital information on terminal - even without
> firing up gnucash.
I had already come to the same conclusion. And I have also already posed 
questions to myself: 

* Does SQLite support transactions? -- Yes. 
* Are transactions implemented? -- Let's assume, "Yes." 

So, this raises more questions, on the assumption of transactional database 
updates in SQLite. 

* Transactional database updates implies multiple user concurrency, but 
everywhere I hear that multiple users is "problematic". Certainly this is true 
with the XML storage because the file is single-use locked, so less 
"problematic" than "impossible". (-: But is it still true with SQLite? 
* If SQLite is supporting transactions, and I then have to assume SQLite is 
"talking" SQL, then what is the complexity with doing the same for other 
back-end databases? 
I hope I have not strayed into an acrimoniously controversial area, but I would 
like to hear the debate. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Liz, 

> Looking at my 2 biggest data files with data from about 1990 for one
> and 1995 for the other
> 2.2 MiB (2351153 bytes)
> 1.5 MiB (1537242 bytes)

> and I don't notice any delays on using these files.
How many transactions do you suppose are saved? My personal case would be ten 
or fifteen a month, but the other use case could be two hundred. That would be 
five thousand in two years. That sound like a lot to me, for a flat file. Of 
course, he could read the file at start-up and index it in memory, which would 
minimize performance hits, but what about transactional integrity? I'm unaware 
how GnuCash is going to implement transactions outside of a database. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi David, 

> I have over 14 years of personal data and some business data in one
> file and no performance issues.
For my own purposes, I will be incurring ten or fifteen transactions per month, 
however the other use case might be two hundred transactions a month. That 
would accumulate five thousand in just two years. It would be interesting to 
know how many transactions you have saved. I don't suppose GnuCash has a 
transaction list report that could tell us that quickly? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

> It should be noted: GnuCash does *not* do database queries as it processes
> transactions.
Well, that's disappointing ... and definitive. 

If this content is stored as flat XML, then I would expect it not to scale very 
well. When does it start having performance problems? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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[GNC] Database storage

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

The FAQ talks about PostgreSQL storage and how it was tired and discontinued, 
but then tried again. This was around version 2 - 3. We are now at version 5.8. 

Is there support for database storage? I see reference to sqlite3, PostgreSQL, 
and MySQL. Sqlite3 is obviously supported, since I can simply save my content 
as sqlite3 in preference to XML, but I'd really like to use either PostgreSQL 
or MySQL, because, that makes GnuCash client server, and probably lets me run 
on distributed client machines. If GnuCash can communicate with a database, it 
probably doesn't matter where the database is. 

What is the authoritative position for configuring database storage? Where are 
the instructions about how to do it? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 
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[GNC] AQBanking

[Chris Miller via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks, 

There are at least two ways for AQBanking to synchronize with the bank, but I'm 
most interested in OFX "Direct Connect" and "Web Connect" 

"Direct Connect" is supported by QuickBooks and I have been using it for many 
years. It is a bi-directional update, meaning, in addition to receiving updates 
to my accounts from the bank, I can write checks in Quickbooks and tell Wells 
Fargo to send them. 

"Web Connect" is supported by many general ledgers and I have not used it. It 
is a one directional update, meaning all I can do is get updates from the bank. 

I think working on "Direct Connect" at this point is a fool's errand, and it is 
not clear to me that it has ever been supported, but it appears the GnuCash can 
request and import a "Web Connect" update. I have configured AQBanking to the 
point where I should be able to get my account list, but the request fails user 
authentication, and I can not find where AQBanking has stored my "Web Connect" 
password, nor can I find a way to re-enter it. 

So: 


* Where did AQBanking store my "Web Connect" password? 
* Where are the logs and other diagnostic reports for AQBanking? 
* Where is the most comprehensive documentation about configuring 
AQBanking? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 
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Re: [GNC] Simultaneous access

[Chris Miller]

 The application gnucash does NOT support multiple simultaneous
 access.
 That would require a DBM (database manager)

   Apparently there are a variety of DBM "back-ends". If I configure
   Postgress, for example, do I get simultaneous access?
   Thanks for the help,
   Chris.
   Laboriously sent to you from my ... do you really care?
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[GNC] Simultaneous access

[Chris Miller]

Hi Folks, 

Can I store my GnuCash "books" on a server, or a NAS, and do my bookkeeping 
from any of my machines, meaning my windows desktop or my Linux development 
station? Can I do this simultaneously? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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[GNC] Importing bank data, sending instructions.

[Chris Miller]

Hi Folks, 

GnuCash will import bank data in OFX format. OFX imports advise me of activity 
that originates with the bank, so I can "sync" my books with the bank. So far; 
so good. 

Wells Fargo produces an OFX import file with "WebConnect", but I have been 
using Wells Fargo "Direct Connect" for thirty years. "Direct Connect" allows me 
to write checks and transfer funds from QuickBooks, but "OFX Import" does not, 
which makes sense, because it is an import, not a dialog. 

I see that there is a way to send instruction to the bank and it is AQBanking, 
which is an open source library that comes with GnuCash. I suspect that 
AQBanking will be tricky to configure, so I'm looking for advice, specifically 
advice on configuring AQBanking to run with Wells Fargo. Reference to a 
specific AQBanking monograph for Wells Fargo would be outstanding. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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Re: [GNC] Wells Fargo OFX

[Chris Miller]

Hi Brad, 


Did you already review the information & links from my last email 
responding to your OFX/online banking issues? 

https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-July/107875.html 



Yes. Well, partly. I read the message, but I did not go to both webpages you 
gave me; I went to [ 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/OFX_Direct_Connect_Bank_Settings | 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/OFX_Direct_Connect_Bank_Settings ] looking for 
"Wells Fargo" and I found nearly zero. There was one reference to "Wells Fargo" 
and that was a reference to https://ofxdc.wellsfargo.com/ofx/process.ofx which 
I suspect is not instruction to me, but might be to GnuCash. In any case, I am 
left with zero guidance. 

There are two obvious reason for so little instruction: "It is trivial." and 
does not justify the effort to write any instructions or "It is impossible." 
and does not justify the effort to write any instructions. 

There are other places I could go for instructions, but it occurred to me that 
maybe I'm not the only Wells Fargo depositor to try GnuCash, and there might be 
some valuable experience available for the asking. So, I asked. 




BQ_BEGIN
If so, did you have more specific questions? 
BQ_END

Yes. What diagnosis and debug facilities are available? Am I going to have to 
compile code and step through it with a debugger? I can do that, but if I have 
to, but I don't think I want to. It just sounds like a frustrating project. I 
haven't yet tried to do an OFX exchange, because antecedent to "exchange" is 
"setup", and I'm still not entirely sure how I do that, or even if I can do 
that with Wells Fargo. 

I am curious about relative successes. OFX exchange is so important to me that 
I would consider changing banks to get it. What banks support GnuCash OFX with 
the fewest probems? Which ones have the most trouble? 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 

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Re: [GNC] Wells Fargo OFX

[Chris Miller]

Hi David, 


I'll take the contrarian position and note that there are more ways to 
synchronize your account with the bank's. 


A discussion with a contrarian will require that I have a clear understanding 
of my arguments, at a minimum, so that is good news. 

If you are talking about periodic reconciliation, then I agree, but antecedent 
to reconciliation is "data entry", and that is where OFX provides value. No 
"data entry" error to uncover and fix. What other techniques can you tell me? 




BQ_BEGIN
Some argue that using the bank to keep your books up to date leaves you 
dependent entirely on the bank for accuracy. 
BQ_END

If you are "relying" on the bank, then I agree, but if you are "reconciling" 
with the bank, then you still control your own accuracy, and can hold the bank 
accountable as well. 




BQ_BEGIN
I enter the transactions for my family's activities manually, and while it gets 
tedious at times, it does give me a chance to review the transactions and have 
a check on what we are spending money on. 
BQ_END

I have a different technique. I always get a receipt. I review the receipt for 
accuracy right then and there. "Data entry" -- accurate and done. I synchronize 
my local software with my bank accounts and credit card accounts with OFX and 
then I match each bank supplied transaction with a receipt before I accept it 
into the register. I've never had to deal with "data entry" errors. I still 
"reconcile" my paper statements from the bank with my local accounting software 
records, but it is trivial, since I already know what is going to be on those 
statements. "Reconciliation" is a check that OFX is accurate at the transaction 
level, not the data entry level, since data entry happens at the point of 
purchase. 

I find that I can only do one thing at a time. If I'm doing "data entry" then I 
can't be distracted by also analyzing spending patterns; "spending patterns" is 
the province of reports. 

If you are doing "data entry" on your transactions, then any mistakes revealed 
by "reconciliation" are far more likely to be "data entry" mistakes than bank 
errors, since the bank never does "data entry". 



So, I'm back to GnuCash OFX and Wells Fargo ... It is a "deal breaker" for me. 
If I can't get GnuCash to work, then I will have to find something else that 
does. I really want GnuCash to work, but Wells Fargo sees the world differently 
than I do and Wells Fargo can absolutely prevent GnuCash OFX from working if 
they choose to do that, and they very well might. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 

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[GNC] Wells Fargo OFX

[Chris Miller]

   Hi Folks,
   I bank with Wells Fargo and have done so for 30 years. I've used
   QuickBooks and Quicken for most of that time and they have worked out
   well. Regardless, I am not a fan of Intuit.
   I'm investigating GnuCash, and the thing I find most important is being
   able to synchronize my accounts with Wells Fargo. However I'm not
   finding much advice on how to set up OFX.
   Does anybody have experience with this? Does anybody have advice for me
   on how to do it, or if I should do it.
   Thanks for the help,
   Chris.
   Laboriously sent to you from my ... do you really care?
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[GNC] Migration and On-lind banking Manuals

[Chris Miller]

Hi Folks, 

I have a few Intuit QuickBooks "Company Files" that I will migrate to GnuCash. 
I'm looking for migration advice. 

It is not clear how much history I want to take with me. I may simply start 
with exiting account balances, and live with QuickBooks for historical reports. 
Or, it may be easy and worthwhile to move move more than that. I don't know and 
I'd be interested to hear advice. For example, how difficult is it to start 
with zero migrated history and set account starting balances and then later 
migrate additional history and adjust starting balances? Or maybe there are 
other, even better strategies. I'm sure I am not the first user to move from 
QuickBooks. 

What is the minimum migration to do on-line banking? Is there a manual for 
on-line banking options and configuration? 

I think my goal is to get started using GnuCash as soon as I can and not get 
bogged down in the whole migration problem. 

Thanks for the help, 
-- 
Chris. 

V:916.799.9461 
F:916.974.0428 
A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: > Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? 
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