Re: [GNC] Selling an unpaid invoice to another business at face value?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Hi Andrew,

Many thanks for coming back.

I think perhaps that in an attempt at brevity, I assumed too much in my 
example and perhaps wasn't as clear as I might have been.  There are 
three entities in my example, but in yours there are 5.  Perhaps the 
confusion arises because the 'I' in my example is an active party, 
whereas the 'you' in yours seems to be a passive observer.


I thought it might help to fill in some of the gaps in my example - 
there may be well be more:-
1/ Two shoe boxes - one marked 'invoices due' the other marked 'invoices 
not due';
2/ Three entities - 'I', Entity-A for whom I do work and Entity-B to 
whom I sell the right to collect the debt for the work done for Entity-A;
3/ Two invoices - my (I's) invoice to Entity-A (Invoice-A) for the work 
done and my (I's) invoice to Entity-B for the sale of the right to 
collect the above debt;
4/ Invoice-A is generated on the completion of the work for Entity-A, 
and placed in the shoe box marked 'invoices due';
5/ Invoice-B is generated on the sale of right to collect the debt to 
Entity-B;
6a/ On the generation of Invoice-B a copy is stapled to Invoice-A to 
represent the discharge of the right to collect the debt on Invoice-A 
and its transfer to Invoice-B - and placed in the shoe box marked 
'invoices not due';

6b/ Invoice-B is placed in the shoe box marked 'invoices due'

In gnucash, I imagine that the transfer of Invoice-A from shoe box 
'invoices due' to shoe box 'invoices not due' is represented by a 
transfer from Accounts Receivable to somewhere else - but, I'm not sure 
where.  To keep it simple, the right to collect is not sold at a discount.


So, the question is - how do I effect 1 to 6 above in gnucash, bearing 
in mind that some things may have been missed and I'm not sure where the 
transfer from Accounts Receivable might go?


The right to collect on an invoice is sold to debt collectors all the 
time - I'm just a bit surprised there isn't a straight forward answer to 
representing that transaction in gnucash.


Many thanks.
M

On 06/12/2023 12:48 am, AP wrote:

On Tue, Dec 05, 2023 at 04:19:01PM +, Morgan Read via gnucash-user wrote:

...


So wouldn't this be:

* you have an invoiceX from CompanyA to CompanyD
* CompanyY creates invoiceY referencing invoiceX to CompanyB
* CompanyB pays CompanyA for invoiceY thus acquiring invoiceX
* CompanyB creates invoiceZ referencing invoiceX (that it now owns) to CompanyD

End result should be CompanyA's books being balanced and CompanyD's books being
unbalanced to the tune of invoiceX and thus requiring payment from CompanyD to
balance.

...

--
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Re: [GNC] Selling an unpaid invoice to another business at face value?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Thanks Adrian,

All I'm attempting to discover is how - in gnucash - can I use what is 
owned by somebodyA to pay off what is owed by somebodyB?  What is the 
procedure for using what is owed by one person to relieve another of the 
debt they owe?


On paper, I would take the invoice to somebodyB, copy it and staple the 
invoice to the invoice to somebodyA and then place the invoice to 
somebodyA in the paid invoices shoe box.


I'm sorry if I'm sounding exasperated .

The legal position in the UK is that if I sell the debt from companyA to 
companyB then companyA will be liable for income tax or company tax 
(depending on whether the entity is a natural person or legal person - 
not that a natural person isn't also a legal person, but a limited 
company is only a legal person) on the returns they receive for the 
sale.  CompanyB will also be liable for any returns it receives on the 
debt purchased.  So, legally, there is a double taxation issue.  Please 
can we leave the legal stuff out of this - I am a lawyer.  It's not a 
legal question.


Thanks, in hope,
Morgan.


I'm not sure that adds much clarity.

Your initial description appeared to be that you had two business 
entities and you were transferring old debts owed to the first entity, 
to a new one - where you control/own both.


Now it appears that you are 'selling a debt' owed by one entity, to 
another who will ultimately pay it.


I'll refer you back to both Michael & David's reply in your linked thread:

#1 - (Michael) How would you do this on Pen & Paper accounting?

#2 - (David) This is a ultimately a legal question. Get that straight 
first. Then once you get official advice on how to record this, you have 
your answer, but if you are having trouble entering the transactions, we 
can help.


We cannot advise you *how* this should be recorded. We can only help 
with the mechanics in GnuCash.


-

For a more general case of transferring the Receivables balance from one 
'customer' to another, you would need to employ an intermediary account.


Investigate the concept of 'Allowance for Doubtful Accounts' and 'Bad 
Debt Expense'.


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/5/23 7:52 AM, Morgan Read via gnucash-user wrote:
This is a follow up, with - I hope - a bit more precision and clarity - 
to this post:

https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-August/108615.html

I wish to sell an unpaid invoice made out to business A (old debtor) to 
another business B at face value - I raise an invoice to business B for 
the sale of the invoice with the value of the invoice made out to 
business A.  How do I transfer the new amount now owed by business B 
(new debtor) to clear the debt of business A?


I had thought that the process described clear an invoice against a 
credit note might be adapted to work.  However, it does not seem 
possible to get more than one customer to show in the Process Payment 
window.


--
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[GNC] Selling an unpaid invoice to another business at face value?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

This is a follow up, with - I hope - a bit more precision and clarity - 
to this post:

https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-August/108615.html

I wish to sell an unpaid invoice made out to business A (old debtor) to 
another business B at face value - I raise an invoice to business B for 
the sale of the invoice with the value of the invoice made out to 
business A.  How do I transfer the new amount now owed by business B 
(new debtor) to clear the debt of business A?


I had thought that the process described clear an invoice against a 
credit note might be adapted to work.  However, it does not seem 
possible to get more than one customer to show in the Process Payment 
window.


Thanks.
--
Morgan Read

Grande Bretagne
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Re: [GNC] moving unpaid invoices between businesses?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Follow up to:
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-August/108616.html
And, apologies again for not following up until after the month has 
rolled over...


Assume this is the year 1950 and so you are keeping your books the way 
they did back then, pen and ink on accounting ruled paper. How would you 
record this transaction? Assuming you had that clearly laid out, what 
difficulties are you having doing that using gnucash...

Michael, there's a lot of assumption in there...

And yes I agree, similar to selling a receivable to a factor or debt 
collection service. The fact that you might be the owner of both is 
irrelevant. However the state/condition of the first business might be 
relevant. The state of CONTESTED invoices when a business id closing 
down or in bankruptcy proceedings will probably differ jurisdiction to 
jurisdiction.


So, invoices not contested; businesses both in business (on going). 
Then, what do I put on the invoice for the invoice/debt that I'm selling 
to the other business?  I mean, what *are* the unpaid invoices that I'm 
selling?  And then, I should probably raise a bill in the receiving 
business, which will create a hole in need of filling - to be filled by 
a new invoice issued from the receiving business to the errant clients? 
This feels like it must be a fairly common circumstance, but none of the 
account websites I've dragged up seem show how it's done - perhaps my 
google fu is rusty.


Many thanks
M.

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Re: [GNC] csv of invoice data

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Follow up to:
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-August/108625.html
Apologies for not following up until after the month has rolled over...

David, yes.  Thank you.  I think that has put me on the right track. 
There's a bit of a steep hill to climb, but at least I know now which 
hill it is :)


M


I needed to play with the invoices data a while ago and used the query
below (gnucash file saved as an sqlite database). I didn't need the
full invoice details and only selected a few of the fields. This
should be enough to get you started. Note that the invoices are in one
table and the invoice items are in another table.

  SELECT invoices.date_posted, invoices.id, invoices.notes,
  accounts.name AS acct_name,
  entries.description,
  quantity_num, quantity_denom, b_price_num, b_price_denom,
  quantity_num / CAST(quantity_denom AS FLOAT) AS quantity,
  b_price_num / CAST(b_price_denom AS FLOAT) AS price
  FROM entries, accounts
  LEFT JOIN invoices ON entries.bill = invoices.guid

David

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 at 16:24, Morgan Read via gnucash-user
 wrote:


Hi again :)

In addition to wanting to deal with some old invoices, I'm also wanting
to generate a csv of invoice data.  There's this post a few years back,
but I feel there must be better.  I've discovered the page on
'ledger-cli': https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Ledger-CLI - which seems
complicated (perhaps not) but, I'm using a sqlite as a back-end anyway.

It says here:
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Published_tools
That bad things will happen if accessing the GnuCash data outside of
GnuCash - but, one of the reasons for switching to sqlite a while back
was accessing the db to pull things out - and no harm can be done if the
db is accessed read-only, can it?  Further down the page there's some
links to export invoice data under 'Export invoices' - the GIP invoice
printer says something about a csv template:
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2008-June/025615.html

I've set up access to the db via unixodbc and from there opened it in LO
Base - but having got there, I got to wondering if there's an easier way
to get a csv of invoice data?

Thanks

--
Morgan Read

Grande Bretagne
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[GNC] csv of invoice data

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Hi again :)

In addition to wanting to deal with some old invoices, I'm also wanting 
to generate a csv of invoice data.  There's this post a few years back, 
but I feel there must be better.  I've discovered the page on 
'ledger-cli': https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Ledger-CLI - which seems 
complicated (perhaps not) but, I'm using a sqlite as a back-end anyway.


It says here:
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Published_tools
That bad things will happen if accessing the GnuCash data outside of 
GnuCash - but, one of the reasons for switching to sqlite a while back 
was accessing the db to pull things out - and no harm can be done if the 
db is accessed read-only, can it?  Further down the page there's some 
links to export invoice data under 'Export invoices' - the GIP invoice 
printer says something about a csv template:

https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2008-June/025615.html

I've set up access to the db via unixodbc and from there opened it in LO 
Base - but having got there, I got to wondering if there's an easier way 
to get a csv of invoice data?


Thanks
--
Morgan Read

Grande Bretagne
Em: 


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[GNC] moving unpaid invoices between businesses?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Hello Folks,

I have a conundrum - I have historic unpaid invoices in one business and 
would like to transfer them to another business.  Both conceptually, how 
should I go about this, and practically how should I go about this with 
two sets of gnucash accounts?


I thought of issuing credit notes against the invoices in the business 
I'm transferring from and then reissue them in the business I'm 
transferring to - but, then that might let the recalcitrant debtors off 
the hook.


It seems like I'm selling the debt to the new business - so, similar to 
selling the invoices to a debt collection service, perhaps?  That would 
mean issuing new invoices from the old business to the new business - 
but then, what are the new invoices for, the old invoices...


This makes my head hurt; it must have been done before.

Many thanks.
--
Morgan Read

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[GNC] Reuse Credit Note as Invoice

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks,

Is it possible to reuse a Credit Note as an Invoice - I have a few 
spare, created but not used and would like to get rid of them as 
Invoices - which (thankfully) I write a lot more of.  I had hopped that 
I'd be able to adjust the Type field in the Invoice Information box top 
left of the Edit window - but, that seems to be uneditable and locked.


Are there some database lines I could adjust?

Many thanks.

--
Morgan Read

Grande Bretagne
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Re: [GNC] Reusing old invoices?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Hi Geert,

Thanks for the pointers, answers inline :-

On 18/11/2022 4:46 pm, Geert Janssens wrote:
Op vrijdag 18 november 2022 16:54:01 CET schreef Morgan Read via 
gnucash-user:

...


 > > I recall an issue not long ago with an uneditable, unposted invoice.

 > > I'll check to see if I resolved it and if so, how. (this was an issue

 > > with the line-items, the details were editable)

 >

 > Yes, those are my symptoms - on one particular invoice the line-items

 > are uneditable whereas the details are editable.  Any pointers would be

 > great, thanks.


Is this an invoice tab you keep permanently open across gnucash restarts 
? In rare cases this may lead to gnucash becoming confused on the posted 
status of the invoice, which could lead to the symptoms you see.



You can try to close the invoice tab and use any the common methods to 
reopen it (Business->Customer->Find Invoice..., clicking on an invoice 
link in some report,...). That should fix the gnucash confusion.



If it's still not editable at that point, something else may be happening.
I'm not keeping it open - certainly not since it was originally created 
in March 2021 - it's certainly possible I kept it open across a few 
restarts when I originally created it, but I can't remember.  I have 
recently posted it and unposted it in the hope that might help to 
'loosen' things up, but it hasn't.

...

If you manually (had to) set the number on an invoice, you can 
afterwards update the invoice counter under File->Properties->Counters 
so the the next invoice will have the right number assigned 
automatically again.

Thanks, that'll help!

Morgan.

--
Morgan Read (It/Its)

Grande Bretagne
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Re: [GNC] Reusing old invoices?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Hi Adrian,

I recall an issue not long ago with an uneditable, unposted invoice. 
I'll check to see if I resolved it and if so, how. (this was an issue 
with the line-items, the details were editable)
Yes, those are my symptoms - on one particular invoice the line-items 
are uneditable whereas the details are editable.  Any pointers would be 
great, thanks.


Be sure you aren't trying to edit the details directly in the fields on 
the invoice tab. (I know, that is confusing UI/UX) You have to use the 
Edit button on the toolbar and make changes there. (or use the Edit 
Bill/Invoice entry in the Edit menu)
Yes, the [Edit Invoice] button is functional - as is the 'Edit' menu > 
'Edit Invoice' menu item - and allows me to edit the details, but none 
of the buttons [Entre] [Cancel] [Delete] [Duplicate] [Up] [Down] [Blank] 
work, nor their equivalent entries under the 'Actions' menu.


I don't think you can change a Credit Note to an Invoice. (I recall 
wanting to do this once, and couldn't figure out how)

It may just have to languish until I need to issue a credit note again

You should be able to simply renumber the Note/Invoice to avoid 
duplication confusion.
Yes, but then I've found that the numbering goes out - that is, the 
auto-numbering creates invoices with a number that was created last time 
(iirc) and so duplicates...


I usually 'number' my need-to-be-reused bills/invoices as "Use Next" and 
then edit as needed later and post.
Hmm, interesting.  So, I can 'number' invoices with letters...?  (It 
seems so, I've just done it!)


Thank you.
btw, could you copy me in please


Regards,
Adrien

On 17/11/2022 6:31 pm, Morgan Read via gnucash-user wrote:

Hi Folks,

I'm trying to re-use an old invoice that was never sent out - but, the entries 
seem to be locked.  The invoice hasn't been posted and I can 'Edit Invoice' 
details, but when I come to entre a line item it's uneditable.  I've been able 
to do the same with other invoices that were created but not posted.  (I've 
been clearing out some old redundant invoices by reusing them.)

Also, I have a 'duplicate' invoice - two invoices with the same invoice number 
- but no way to 'delete' the invoice.  One was posted and sent, the other is 
only partially complete - the partially complete one is actually a credit note. 
 So, I figure I need to change it to a invoice (from a credit note) and change 
the invoice number and probably reset the invoice numbering so I can reuse it 
as an invoice and get rid of it and then have the invoice numbering run 
properly.

Any ideas on the above?

Thanks

--
Morgan Read (It/Its)

Grande Bretagne
Em: 

Confused about DRM?
Get all the info you need at:
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[GNC] Reusing old invoices?

[Morgan Read via gnucash-user]

Hi Folks,

I'm trying to re-use an old invoice that was never sent out - but, the entries 
seem to be locked.  The invoice hasn't been posted and I can 'Edit Invoice' 
details, but when I come to entre a line item it's uneditable.  I've been able 
to do the same with other invoices that were created but not posted.  (I've 
been clearing out some old redundant invoices by reusing them.)

Also, I have a 'duplicate' invoice - two invoices with the same invoice number 
- but no way to 'delete' the invoice.  One was posted and sent, the other is 
only partially complete - the partially complete one is actually a credit note. 
 So, I figure I need to change it to a invoice (from a credit note) and change 
the invoice number and probably reset the invoice numbering so I can reuse it 
as an invoice and get rid of it and then have the invoice numbering run 
properly.

Any ideas on the above?

Thanks
-- 
Morgan Read

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