Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

Apologies, (no edit on the mailing list), see
https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798987 - the previous link was the
multi-split bug fixed in V5.3.

On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 17:19, flywire  wrote:

> I've submitted an updated working example with python code as an
> enhancement request for the importer to: [*Wrong Link*]
> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798964
>
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

I've submitted an updated working example with python code as an
enhancement request for the importer to:
https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798964
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

This is a preliminary (spreadsheet) process to add GST splits to a bank
statement and use a multisplit csv file to import them to GnuCash.

   1. Start with Bank Statement based on the Guide Checking Account  -
   see GST_Demo_Statement.csv
   2. Accounts should exist for the transactions -
   see GST_Demo_Accounts.csv and the Note for GST accounts
   3. Unique account strings are required to identify Accounts -
   see GST_Demo_AccountKeywords.csv
   4. Each of the above csv files can be copied to a sheet in a spreadsheet
   to lookup the Account and GST fields - see GST_Demo_Statement_Accounted.csv
   5. A process is run to create the GST split in a multisplit csv file -
   see GST_Demo_Statement_Multisplit.csv

Let's create the GnuCash GST_Demo file:

*Note:* GnuCash V5.1 has a bug preventing the multisplit file from loading
amounts. Either load GnuCash V4 and translate all the labels or run V5.1
anyway assigning value to an empty column to see the process without values.

Run GnuCash

Create the accounts:

File, New file, Cancel
File, Import, Import accounts from CSV, Next, Choose file to import:
GST_Demo_Accounts.csv, Import account preview: 1 row in header, comma
separated, Next, Import accounts now: Apply, New book options: Close, A
message should display 21 accounts created: Close.

You can examine the accounts created.

Import the Checking Account transactions:

File, Import, Import transactions from CSV, Next, Choose file to import:
GST_Demo_Statement_Multisplit.csv, Import  preview: File format:
Separators, Comma, Multi-split, Miscellaneous: Date format - d-m-y, Leading
lines to skip - 1, Select columns - Date, Number, Description, Amount
(negated), Amount, Price (assigned to empty column to workaround bug),
Account, Next, Match import and GnuCash accounts: Next, Transaction
information: Next, Match transactions: Apply, Import summary: Close

In the Accounts tab double click on Bank:Checking to open the account,
View, Transaction journal.

Regards

>
Date,No,Description,Debit,Credit,Balance
01/03/2006,,Opening Balance,,1000.00,1000.00
05/03/2006,101,GG25j1546 Grocerieswtf 15:57 061124,45.21,,954.79
05/03/2006,,EFTPOS 5632185,75.00,,879.79
06/03/2006,,Transfer to J Doe Savings Acc 5765-8397 589654259587,,100.00,979.79
06/03/2006,106,EFTPOS 98416,100.00,,879.79
14/03/2006,,Direct Credit Salary from Employers R Us,,670.00,1549.79
24/03/2006,,Transfer to J Doe Savings Acc 5765-8397 589654259587,,500.00,2049.79
28/03/2006,,Mmvoin515b  Internet Company bg??,20.00,,2029.79
28/03/2006,102,Light Company Big City Branch   9g8k863,78.00,,1951.79
28/03/2006,103,Phone Company NameAutodebit 595642583,45.00,,1906.79
28/03/2006,104,April Rent5 Short Road,350.00,,1556.79
28/04/2006,105,May Rent5 Short Road,350.00,,1206.79Type,Full Account Name,Account Name,Account Code,Description,Account Colour,Notes,Symbol,Namespace,Hidden,Tax Info,Placeholder
ASSET,Assets,Assets,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
ASSET,Assets:GST,GST,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
ASSET,Assets:GST:GST on Purchases,GST on Purchases,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
BANK,Bank,Bank,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
BANK,Bank:Checking,Checking,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
BANK,Bank:Saving,Saving,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EQUITY,Equity,Equity,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
EQUITY,Equity:Opening Balance,Opening Balance,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EXPENSE,Expense,Expense,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
EXPENSE,Expense:Electricity,ElectricityGST,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EXPENSE,Expense:Groceries,Groceries,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EXPENSE,Expense:Hardware,HardwareGST,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EXPENSE,Expense:Internet,InternetGST,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EXPENSE,Expense:Phone,PhoneGST,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EXPENSE,Expense:Rent,Rent,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
EXPENSE,Expense:Unallocated,Unallocated,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
INCOME,Income,Income,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
INCOME,Income:Salary,Salary,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
LIABILITY,Liability,Liability,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
LIABILITY,Liability:GST,GST,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,T
LIABILITY,Liability:GST:GST on Sales,GST on Sales,AUD,CURRENCY,F,F,F
Keyword,Account
98416,Expense:Hardware
R Us,Income:Salary
Groceries,Expense:Groceries
Internet,Expense:Internet
Light,Expense:Electricity
Opening,Equity:Opening Balance
Phone,Expense:Phone
Savings Acc,Bank:Saving
Rent,Expense:Rent
Warning: Insert new items above last item to maintain table,
Date,No,Description,Debit,Credit,Balance,Account,Match,GST
01/03/2006,,Opening Balance,,1000.00,1000.00,Equity:Opening Balance,Opening,
05/03/2006,101,GG25j1546 Grocerieswtf 15:57 061124,45.21,,954.79,Expense:Groceries,Groceries,
05/03/2006,,EFTPOS 5632185,75.00,,879.79,Expense:Unallocated,#N/A,
06/03/2006,,Transfer to J Doe Savings Acc 5765-8397 589654259587,,100.00,979.79,Bank:Saving,Savings Acc,
06/03/2006,106,EFTPOS 98416,100.00,,879.79,Expense:Hardware,98416,GST
14/03/2006,,Direct Credit Salary from Employers R Us,,670.00,1549.79,Income:Salary,R Us,
24/03/2006,,Transfer to J Doe Savings Acc 5765-8397 

Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

John,

Hmm, it's all irrelevant with Australian GST. Generally, a return is
submitted each quarter with GST collected less GST paid, and a payment is
made by the appropriate party for the difference. It doesn't matter if it
is income, a capital item, or stock.

With my experience of Quickbooks I see the GST accounts and process
differently to you but the discussion best follows a preprocessor
demonstration with specific examples. I agree it is important to pick
examples most people can relate to, for example, most people probably have
the same understanding of diesel but not gas.

Regards
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[john]

> On Jun 20, 2023, at 00:11, flywire  wrote:
> 
> 
> There is an incredible amount of keystrokes, clicks, and human memory
> recall to pay a bill:
> 
> Business, Vendor, New Bill, Date Opened:20/06/2023, Vendor: Random, OK
> Expense account: Expenses:Auto:Fuel, Quantity: 1, Taxable, Tax included:
> Select, Tax Table: GST on Purchases [default]
> Enter
> Post bill (so it can be paid), OK
> Pay, Select Transfer Account: Checking Account, OK
> 
> Sample Transaction
> Date  Description
>AccountDebit   Credit
> 20/06/23  Random
>Expenses:Auto:Fuel $3,000.00
>Liabilities:GST:GST on Purchases  $300.00

That's a mistake, you got it right below

>Assets:Current Assets:Checking Account  $3,300.00

> 
> General Journal
> Date  Description
>AccountDebit   Credit
> 20/06/23  Random
>Liabilities:Accounts Payable   $3,300.00
>Assets:Current Assets:Checking Account  $3,300.00
> 20/06/23  Random
>Assets:GST:GST on Purchases  $300.00
>Expenses:Auto:Fuel $3,000.00
>Liabilities:Accounts Payable$3,300.00

Does Australia let you deduct GST on overhead expense from that paid on product 
sold, or only VAT incurred in COGS? If it's only the latter I'd think auto fuel 
would be a poor example. The problem with your proposal if you change that to 
some actual input--a process chemical, say--is that you don't expense those 
when you purchase them: It's an asset transfer, DR Assets:Inputs:Process 
Chemicals:SF6 (just picking a random process chemical from one of my former 
lives in semiconductor manufacturing), DR Assets:GST:GST on inputs, CR 
Liabilities:Accounts Payable.

 Expending the process chemical is another asset transfer, DR WIP, CR inputs 
*and* DR GST on WIP, CR GST on Inputs.

When the product is finished its transferred from WIP to Finished inventory and 
the accumulated GST would be transferred too: DR Finished Inventory, CR WIP and 
DR GST on finished inventory, CR GST on WIP.

You book the expenses when you sell product: DR:Assets:Accounts Receivable, CR 
Income:Sales, DR Expenses:COGS, CR Assets:Finished Inventory; DR Expenses:GST 
on sales, CR:GST on finished inventory, CR Liabilities:GST.

To make that work the way you say that Quickbooks does it you'd need the 
Expenses:COGS to be broken out by product and each product's BOM and break out 
the right proportion of each sale into each BOM account. That seems to me to be 
more complicated than separating the value and GST at purchase time.

GnuCash has tax tables on bills just like on invoices, so once you've set up 
your input GST schedules you only need to apply the right one to each line 
item. You'll have two sets, one for inputs that goes to an asset account and 
one for overhead that goes to an expense account. If your GST/VAT regime has a 
lot of different rates then take some care naming your tax tables so it's easy 
to remember which one to apply to each line item.

But either way it's a lot of manual work. That's why I keep repeating that 
GnuCash is suitable only for very small retail operations and completely 
unsuitable for any sort of manufacturing. There's better software out there for 
those kinds of businesses. Don't waste time trying to convince us to turn 
GnuCash into a competitor for Odoo (it isn't going to happen, we don't have the 
resources), just use Odoo if that's what you need. Geert does, so what better 
endorsement do you need?

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[edodd]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 17:11:59 +1000
flywire  wrote:

> There is an incredible amount of keystrokes, clicks, and human memory
> recall to pay a bill:

That would be a reason I don't use that part of the business features.
For invoicing I use the business features as it is worthwhile, even
when I get an invoice provided by the paying entity.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 10:58, David Cousens 
wrote:

> AFAIK the tax tables work only with with invoices. As not all items are
> necessarily subject to GST in all business situations in AU. It would be
> difficult to automate it because of this and similarly with applying it to
> imported transactions,  GnuCash has no way of knowing what items are
> subject to GST and which are not.  I haven't had to do GST returns since
> 2014 when I retired but if my memory serves me  I had to creatte invoices
> for any requiring GST  or manually enter it myself.
>
> David
>
> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-June/107428.html
> flywire wrote:
> > ...
>

USA user comments tend to imply GnuCash uses a USA Point-Of-Sale model for
Invoicing and Billing. Attaching the tax code to the income/expense account
(like Quickbooks) would be much more efficient for other countries like
Australia.

As David noted above tax might not be simple. While most Australian
businesses apply GST, normally 10%, some are input taxed so they cannot
claim the GST on those enterprises, and businesses may have both types of
enterprises. For example, a farm business might have to split fuel by
enterprise if say the farm enterprise pays and collects GST and the
business also rents worker residential accommodation enterprise paying GST
it is not entitled to claim, collect, or have any reason to account for.

Businesses aim to make money and GST is charged on that money so it follows
GST is a liability. Another nice thing Quickbooks does contrary to the
Guide is place all the GST accounts under liabilities so the net result is
clear from the parent account at any time. [Liability:GST:GST on Sales (ie
tax collected) and Liability:GST:GST on Purchases (ie tax paid).]

I'm going to come back with a preprocessing solution but it could be done
directly and more efficiently by the importer using the tax table.

-

I'll close this post with most steps for the Minimal Working Example based
on inconsistent documentation previously linked:

Run GnuCash
File, New
New Account Hierarchy Setup, Next
New Book Options, Next
Choose Currency, Next
Choose accounts to create: Select Business Accounts and Clear Common
Accounts, Finish
Apply
File: GST-Demo, Save As

Actions, New account
Create Assets:GST:GST on Purchases and Liabilities:GST:GST on Sales

Business, Sales tax table
Create tax tables:
 GST on Purchases, Tax table entries: Assets:GST:GST on Purchases
 GST on Sales, Tax table entries: Liabilities:GST:GST on Sales
Close

File, Properties, Business tab
Default Customer Tax Table: GST on Sales, Default Vendor Tax Table: GST on
Purchases

Business, Vendor, New Vendor, Company Name: Random, OK

There is an incredible amount of keystrokes, clicks, and human memory
recall to pay a bill:

Business, Vendor, New Bill, Date Opened:20/06/2023, Vendor: Random, OK
Expense account: Expenses:Auto:Fuel, Quantity: 1, Taxable, Tax included:
Select, Tax Table: GST on Purchases [default]
Enter
Post bill (so it can be paid), OK
Pay, Select Transfer Account: Checking Account, OK

Sample Transaction
Date  Description
AccountDebit   Credit
20/06/23  Random
Expenses:Auto:Fuel $3,000.00
Liabilities:GST:GST on Purchases  $300.00
Assets:Current Assets:Checking Account  $3,300.00

General Journal
Date  Description
AccountDebit   Credit
20/06/23  Random
Liabilities:Accounts Payable   $3,300.00
Assets:Current Assets:Checking Account  $3,300.00
20/06/23  Random
Assets:GST:GST on Purchases  $300.00
Expenses:Auto:Fuel $3,000.00
Liabilities:Accounts Payable$3,300.00

Regards
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Kalpesh Patel]

Interesting enough there are (at least thirteen; 02861, 42223, 59221, 63673, 
71749, 73949, 81137, 84536, 86044, 86515, 88063, 89439 & 97635; anyone has fear 
of triskaidekaphobia?) zip codes that are multi states in the US! 

I remember when I was working for an on-line retail rental place it was fun 
figuring out how much tax to charge -- some items on rental are taxed while 
some are not and even within that some line items are taxed (postage is) and 
some are not (insurance is not). And to add fun to that, within zip codes we 
had to consult street address because it could be in one county versus another 
county and then each county had their own process when they updated their tax 
schedule. The application was wired up to consult a well-known commercial 
vendor's system for tax calculations but even then the company used to get 
regular notices from counties on deficient tax remittance.

Then there is the online purchase part where tax is based on where the item is 
delivered and not where it is purchased. 

This is one item that is better handled distributed by reporting in rather than 
centralized ...

-Original Message-
From: Michael or Penny Novack  
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2023 9:49 PM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

On 6/18/2023 7:43 PM, flywire wrote:
>> In looking for/expecting and automated solution you are thinking one 
>> should
> be reasonable. ...I live in the US [which has complex GST]
>
> Yet surely it is reasonable for the automated GST functionality for 
> accrual accounting to apply to cash accounting. Even USA GST has 
> rules, so it could be automated.

Yes indeed, sales tax(es) can be computed automatically even here in the US. 
But this is typically done by a POS system at the register and the result is 
fed to the general ledger system.

Notice that "point" in "point of sales. That's because the correct tax amount 
depends on the point of sale (the where). The device (that thing that used to 
be just a "cash register) "knows" where it is. The product code is scanned in 
(or hand entered) and that is used to determine if taxable and at what rate. 
that gets sent to general ledger. Also that a widget with that code sold 
informs the inventory system to deduct one (and also send the "cost of good 
sold" to general ledger. Let's say you have  a business located near Port 
Jarvis with three shops, one in NY, one in NJ, and one in PA (the three states 
meet there). The POS sales in each of those shops would be sending DIFFERENT 
tax amounts to general ledger.

You are asking general ledger to do all of this (gnucash is a general ledger 
system). In that case MORE INFORMATION would be needed as part of each 
transaction. Not just things like date, amount, etc. but "legal location for 
this transaction" << for example, the location of the customer if a remote 
sale* >>

Michael D Novack

* BTW, I have yet to do business with any remote seller that does this 
correctly. They tend to use ZIP code, but ZIP code is NOT a reliable indication 
of the legal location of the address. Postal delivery routes do not respect 
state boundaries let alone more local political boundaries. My working days 
were spent in a financial industry where "contract state" WAS collected 
separately from "mail state" << because it was very important to be sure what 
state's laws would apply to the contract >> In other words, remote sellers 
really should "look up on a map" (mapping software) where that mailing address 
is actually located and not assume must be the same state/city as the PO that 
delivers mail to that address.



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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-June/107406.html
David Cousens wrote:
> If you look at this section of the business features setting up tax
tables is described.
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v4/C/gnucash-guide/bus_setup.html It works for
invoices and should work similarly for bills. That is as automated as it
gets.

Interesting. Working down through Business setup, Account setup, Setting up
sales tax tables, Enter company information, then Setting business
preferences as discussed further in
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v5/C/gnucash-manual/set-prefs.html#prefs-biz

I note options can be set for Tax included and Invoices/Bills Process
payments/Auto pay on posting. That was suggested to me long ago never
having used Business Features in GnuCash I imagined it was a manual process.

Can I get a minimum working example to establish a set of business books as
described in the guide Account setup and Australian Tax Tables, and process
a bill for $3300 of fuel including 10% GST? It's not clear to me but I
understand the default tax table code is attached to the account code (like
Quickbooks).

With that scenario I'd expect a csv import of bank transactions to
automatically split Expenses:Fuel and Asset:GST:Purchases:Standard.

Regards

>
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Stan Brown]

On 2023-06-18 18:48, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> Notice that "point" in "point of sales. That's because the correct tax
> amount depends on the point of sale (the where).

Well, sometimes. In California, for example, the sales tax rate on
purchase of a vehicle is according to where the new owner lives, not
according to where the dealer is located. (I bought my car in LA County,
but the dealer correctly charged me sales tax based on my residence in
Kern County. Had I lived in LA County and bought from a dealer in Kern,
I would have had to pay the higher LA County rate. In either case, the
dealer's location is irrelevant.)

Granted, that's unusual. But as you know, it takes the same amount of
programming effort to handle a given special case whether it occurs
frequently or once in a blue moon.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com

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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 6/18/2023 7:43 PM, flywire wrote:

In looking for/expecting and automated solution you are thinking one should

be reasonable. ...I live in the US [which has complex GST]

Yet surely it is reasonable for the automated GST functionality for accrual
accounting to apply to cash accounting. Even USA GST has rules, so it could
be automated.


Yes indeed, sales tax(es) can be computed automatically even here in the 
US. But this is typically done by a POS system at the register and the 
result is fed to the general ledger system.


Notice that "point" in "point of sales. That's because the correct tax 
amount depends on the point of sale (the where). The device (that thing 
that used to be just a "cash register) "knows" where it is. The product 
code is scanned in (or hand entered) and that is used to determine if 
taxable and at what rate. that gets sent to general ledger. Also that a 
widget with that code sold informs the inventory system to deduct one 
(and also send the "cost of good sold" to general ledger. Let's say you 
have  a business located near Port Jarvis with three shops, one in NY, 
one in NJ, and one in PA (the three states meet there). The POS sales in 
each of those shops would be sending DIFFERENT tax amounts to general 
ledger.


You are asking general ledger to do all of this (gnucash is a general 
ledger system). In that case MORE INFORMATION would be needed as part of 
each transaction. Not just things like date, amount, etc. but "legal 
location for this transaction" << for example, the location of the 
customer if a remote sale* >>


Michael D Novack

* BTW, I have yet to do business with any remote seller that does this 
correctly. They tend to use ZIP code, but ZIP code is NOT a reliable 
indication of the legal location of the address. Postal delivery routes 
do not respect state boundaries let alone more local political 
boundaries. My working days were spent in a financial industry where 
"contract state" WAS collected separately from "mail state" << because 
it was very important to be sure what state's laws would apply to the 
contract >> In other words, remote sellers really should "look up on a 
map" (mapping software) where that mailing address is actually located 
and not assume must be the same state/city as the PO that delivers mail 
to that address.


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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

> In looking for/expecting and automated solution you are thinking one should
be reasonable. ...I live in the US [which has complex GST]

Yet surely it is reasonable for the automated GST functionality for accrual
accounting to apply to cash accounting. Even USA GST has rules, so it could
be automated.

> flywire: you mentioned that you use QuickBooks for business, have you tried
using Odoo?

I have tried many packages but not Odoo. Manual data entry is the most
time-consuming task so I give accounting package right of veto to
the person doing data entry. Apart from the farm business tracking GST in
Quickbooks all data entry is a semi-automated csv process in GnuCash,
although one set of books uses an 80/20 automated account allocation edited
by someone else after importing.

I switched from KMyMoney to Gnucash with a view to GST support for the
farm, not realising it wasn't automated for cash accounting. Regardless, I
think I can force the farm data into GnuCash and leverage the data.

Regards

>
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Stan Brown]

And to hammer another nail into Michael's point, the tax rate can vary
by date. For example, when I lived in New York state it had a 4% sales
tax rate, including on clothing, _except_ for certain weekends each
year, when clothing below a certain value was taxed at 0% but other
taxable goods were still at 4%.

In fact it was even more complicated than that, because most counties
had their own add-on sales taxes, and some of them also lifted _their_
taxes on the same weekends as the state while others did not. In Ithaca,
we paid 8% tax on clothing most of the year, but 4% on those special
"tax-free" weekends.

As Michael says, GC being a global product, if it were to treat
sales-type taxes specially it would have to keep track of thousands of
rules. Testing that code would be a nightmare, and I'm confident there
would be many, bugs, a significant number of them undetected. That's
particularly bad in tax matters!

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com

On 2023-06-18 08:26, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> On 6/17/2023 10:06 PM, Karl May wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> For my business setup I am wondering whether there is a way to
>> automatically
>> account for gst on small random purchases (e.g. hotel, restaurant etc.).
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a
>> transaction split and application of a default GST rate?
>>
>> Thanks
> 
> 
> In looking for/expecting and automated solution you are thinking one
> should be reasonable. But that's ONLY for the (very) special case where
> the tax rate on things like "hotel", "restaurant", etc, would be 
> uniform. Since I live in the US, I do not have that expectation. I know
> that every state imposes a different rate (and taxes different things*)
> and some municipalities are allowed to impose local taxes in addition.
> 
> Thus I expect to enter manually from the receipt which will spell out
> the amounts of various taxes. It would be much more work to go to the
> state and/or municipality sites to find out the rates (and its "rounding
> rule") and try to compute it myself. That's what the vendor (hotel,
> restaurant, store, etc.) has a POS system to figure out and of course it
> "knows" where it is located (which rules apply). In other words, even
> adding the complexity of a typical POS system to gnucash would not help,
> because the exact legal location is unlikely to be included in the
> transaction information by the time it gets to gnucash.
> 
> Michael D Novack
> 
> * It can even depend on the sort of business the vendor is as well as
> the item. Thus my own state of MA does not tax items of clothing costing
> below a certain amount. So one winter day, leaving the house,  I forgot
> to put on gloves. So say I stop to get some, it will make a difference
> where I stop. If I stop at the local hardware store  or garden store,
> taxed, as "protective gear". But if I stopped at the general store, not
> taxed, as clothing. So to be automated in gnucash, the POS part would
> not only need to know the legal location but how the item classed by
> that sort of vendor.
> 
> 
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 6/18/2023 9:14 AM, Brad Morrison wrote:

Thanks flywire!

That GitHub Pull Request link takes me to a comment from John Ralls 
that very succinctly summarizes the difficulties of using GnuCash for 
larger or more complex enterprises.


The rest of that comment is: "Adding those modules is a non-starter: 
Consider that it's been 10 years since we began working on separating 
libgnucash from the application, converting from GObject to C++, and 
changing from a program that can load its data from a SQL database and 
put it back to one that is built around SQL queries. We haven't gotten 
very far. 


There are many parts (component) to a full accounting SYSTEM and which 
of them needed depending on the sort of enterprise. ONE of those 
components would be the one that usually goes by the name "general 
ledger". THAT is what gnucash is, all that it is. A full SYSTEM  might 
include components doing "point of sales" (POS) , handling inventory, 
handling payroll and keeping HR records, etc. In a small, not very 
automated system, these might just produce reports of transactions to be 
manually entered into general ledger. In larger systems, would be 
automated, with these systems creating FILES of transactions to get 
imported.


Look -- if you are a small enterprise in the sense of number of 
transactions, gnucash alone might work for you.


But if you are a large enterprise in the sense of number of 
transactions, employees, quantity and variety of good sold, multiple 
locations, etc. then you will want components to handle inventory, POS, 
payroll, billable hours, etc,  Notice that thinking of these other 
components as PART of general ledger is the wrong way to think. They are 
doing other things as well, "talking" to each other and other 
departments as well as general ledger. Thus POS might send a "sales" 
transaction to general ledger and send a "widget transaction" to 
inventory. Inventory would then send a "cost of goods sold" transaction 
to general ledger but also check the number of remaining widgets against 
the "reorder number" and maybe send something to "ordering" to tell that 
department to order more widgets, etc.


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 6/17/2023 10:06 PM, Karl May wrote:

Hi all,

For my business setup I am wondering whether there is a way to automatically
account for gst on small random purchases (e.g. hotel, restaurant etc.).

...

Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a
transaction split and application of a default GST rate?

Thanks



In looking for/expecting and automated solution you are thinking one 
should be reasonable. But that's ONLY for the (very) special case where 
the tax rate on things like "hotel", "restaurant", etc, would be  
uniform. Since I live in the US, I do not have that expectation. I know 
that every state imposes a different rate (and taxes different things*) 
and some municipalities are allowed to impose local taxes in addition.


Thus I expect to enter manually from the receipt which will spell out 
the amounts of various taxes. It would be much more work to go to the 
state and/or municipality sites to find out the rates (and its "rounding 
rule") and try to compute it myself. That's what the vendor (hotel, 
restaurant, store, etc.) has a POS system to figure out and of course it 
"knows" where it is located (which rules apply). In other words, even 
adding the complexity of a typical POS system to gnucash would not help, 
because the exact legal location is unlikely to be included in the 
transaction information by the time it gets to gnucash.


Michael D Novack

* It can even depend on the sort of business the vendor is as well as 
the item. Thus my own state of MA does not tax items of clothing costing 
below a certain amount. So one winter day, leaving the house,  I forgot 
to put on gloves. So say I stop to get some, it will make a difference 
where I stop. If I stop at the local hardware store  or garden store, 
taxed, as "protective gear". But if I stopped at the general store, not 
taxed, as clothing. So to be automated in gnucash, the POS part would 
not only need to know the legal location but how the item classed by 
that sort of vendor.



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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Brad Morrison]

Thanks flywire!

That GitHub Pull Request link takes me to a comment from John Ralls that 
very succinctly summarizes the difficulties of using GnuCash for larger 
or more complex enterprises.


The rest of that comment is: "Adding those modules is a non-starter: 
Consider that it's been 10 years since we began working on separating 
libgnucash from the application, converting from GObject to C++, and 
changing from a program that can load its data from a SQL database and 
put it back to one that is built around SQL queries. We haven't gotten 
very far.


Those seeking a F/LOSS accounting solution for larger enterprises should 
look to Odoo ."


I had never heard of Odoo before I read that comment 
(https://www.odoo.com/). From Odoo's website, I also found a small list 
of accounting firms that use Odoo (19 are listed for the USA at 
https://www.odoo.com/accounting-firms). Although that listing is 
organized strangely to me, the firms are listed by "city, USA" NOT 
"city, state, USA" or even "state, USA" and the US is a large country 
with 50 states and 330+ million people, so there are many cities with 
the same name... Regardless, some of the firms on that list may also be 
interested in using GnuCash for "tiny & simple" enterprises, thus the 
occasional requests for bookkeeping/accounting help for businesses that 
use GnuCash may have some more leads available!


flywire: you mentioned that you use QuickBooks for business, have you 
tried using Odoo?


For anyone else following this thread, but unsure as to exactly what GST 
is, I'm assuming that we are talking about the tax concept (and not 
likely the American version of GST) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GST


I'm sure that the GnuCash developers would appreciate any financial 
support from anyone regularly using this software and/or asking for new 
features/updates to be implemented/investigated 
(https://gnucash.org/donate.phtml). For American taxpayers that itemize 
their deductions, just keep in mind that GnuCash is not a 501c3 
nonprofit, nor a fiscally sponsored project of an existing, registered 
501c3 nonprofit 
(https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-May/106798.html), 
so those donations may not be tax deductible 
(https://www.irs.gov/help/ita/can-i-deduct-my-charitable-contributions).


Brad


On 6/18/23 04:37, flywire wrote:

https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/1623#issuecomment-1583966278
"GnuCash is for tiny and simple enterprises; we often say individuals and
sole proprietorships. Even having employees makes using GnuCash a dubious
proposition (no payroll module), as does carrying more than a very few line
items of inventory (no inventory module) or performing any sort of
manufacturing (no bill of materials or cost accounting modules)."

GnuCash supports GST for Accrual Accounting but not Cash Accounting, go
figure.

-

I proposed a process for Cash Accounting with Automated GST:
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2021-September/097666.html
TLDR; Automate GST for cash accounting by preprocessing transactions to
enrich with GST and import as a multisplit file

1. This isn't going to work on random transactions, you need to know which
accounts have GST
2. I already preprocess bank transactions in a spreadsheet before importing
but I haven't got around to splitting for GST (because I still use
QuickBooks for business)
3. I'd probably do the splits in python and integrate it into LibreOffice
Calc

If anyone is interested I'll work on it.


https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-June/107405.html  R

Losey wrote:

You MIGHT be able to get fancy by getting the data into a spreadsheet,
having macros to assign the GST and travel categories, and then import the
spreadsheet into GnuCash.


https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-June/107404.html

Karl May wrote:

For my business setup I am wondering whether there is a way to
automatically
account for gst on small random purchases (e.g. hotel, restaurant etc.).

My current setup is roughly

Assets:financial_assets:bank_account
Assets:financial_assets:gst
Expense:travel

So far I haven't setup Accounts/payable and Accounts/receivable.

The current process is:

A) import bank account transactions via OFX into "bank_account" and
"imbalanced"
B) manually go through all transaction, use "split transaction",

manually

calculate the gst and assign amounts to Expense:travel and
Assets:financial_assets:gst.


Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a
transaction split and application of a default GST rate?

Regards
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[GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[flywire]

https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/1623#issuecomment-1583966278
"GnuCash is for tiny and simple enterprises; we often say individuals and
sole proprietorships. Even having employees makes using GnuCash a dubious
proposition (no payroll module), as does carrying more than a very few line
items of inventory (no inventory module) or performing any sort of
manufacturing (no bill of materials or cost accounting modules)."

GnuCash supports GST for Accrual Accounting but not Cash Accounting, go
figure.

-

I proposed a process for Cash Accounting with Automated GST:
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2021-September/097666.html
TLDR; Automate GST for cash accounting by preprocessing transactions to
enrich with GST and import as a multisplit file

1. This isn't going to work on random transactions, you need to know which
accounts have GST
2. I already preprocess bank transactions in a spreadsheet before importing
but I haven't got around to splitting for GST (because I still use
QuickBooks for business)
3. I'd probably do the splits in python and integrate it into LibreOffice
Calc

If anyone is interested I'll work on it.

> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-June/107405.html R
Losey wrote:
>
> You MIGHT be able to get fancy by getting the data into a spreadsheet,
> having macros to assign the GST and travel categories, and then import the
> spreadsheet into GnuCash.
>
>
> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-June/107404.html
Karl May wrote:
>
> > For my business setup I am wondering whether there is a way to
> > automatically
> > account for gst on small random purchases (e.g. hotel, restaurant etc.).
> >
> > My current setup is roughly
> >
> > Assets:financial_assets:bank_account
> > Assets:financial_assets:gst
> > Expense:travel
> >
> > So far I haven't setup Accounts/payable and Accounts/receivable.
> >
> > The current process is:
> >
> > A) import bank account transactions via OFX into "bank_account" and
> > "imbalanced"
> > B) manually go through all transaction, use "split transaction",
manually
> > calculate the gst and assign amounts to Expense:travel and
> > Assets:financial_assets:gst.
> >
> >
> > Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a
> > transaction split and application of a default GST rate?

Regards
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Maf. King]

On Sunday, 18 June 2023 03:06:28 BST Karl May wrote:

> 
> Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a
> transaction split and application of a default GST rate?
> 
> Thanks
> 

Hi Karl,

If your "random" transactions are mostly from a regular set of suppliers, then 
I truly think that your best route is to enter the transactions manually and 
not do the import.

Autofill will do a lot of the heavy lifting and create the splits ready for you 
to bash the numbers in, on the 2nd and following transactions for any given 
supplier.

there is no other "more automated" way that I know of.

HTH,
Maf.



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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[David Cousens]

Karl,

If you look at this section of the business features setting up tax tables is
described. https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v4/C/gnucash-guide/bus_setup.html  It
works for invoices and should work similarly for bills. That is as automated as
it gets.

David Cousens

On Sun, 2023-06-18 at 12:06 +1000, Karl May wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> For my business setup I am wondering whether there is a way to automatically 
> account for gst on small random purchases (e.g. hotel, restaurant etc.).
> 
> My current setup is roughly
> 
> Assets:financial_assets:bank_account
> Assets:financial_assets:gst
> Expense:travel
> 
> So far I haven't setup Accounts/payable and Accounts/receivable.
> 
> The current process is:
> 
> A) import bank account transactions via OFX into "bank_account" and 
> "imbalanced"
> B) manually go through all transaction, use "split transaction", manually 
> calculate the gst and assign amounts to Expense:travel and 
> Assets:financial_assets:gst.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a 
> transaction split and application of a default GST rate?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[R Losey]

For the work you're doing, it seems that importing transactions isn't
benefiting you very much, as you still have to go through each one
manually.  I would just enter everything manually, and do regular balancing
of the "bank account".

I doubt if it can be automated in GnuCash - there isn't anything from that
shows the split

You MIGHT be able to get fancy by getting the data into a spreadsheet,
having macros to assign the GST and travel categories, and then import the
spreadsheet into GnuCash.

On the other hand, you could just enter them manually.


On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 9:07 PM Karl May  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> For my business setup I am wondering whether there is a way to
> automatically
> account for gst on small random purchases (e.g. hotel, restaurant etc.).
>
> My current setup is roughly
>
> Assets:financial_assets:bank_account
> Assets:financial_assets:gst
> Expense:travel
>
> So far I haven't setup Accounts/payable and Accounts/receivable.
>
> The current process is:
>
> A) import bank account transactions via OFX into "bank_account" and
> "imbalanced"
> B) manually go through all transaction, use "split transaction", manually
> calculate the gst and assign amounts to Expense:travel and
> Assets:financial_assets:gst.
>
>
> Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a
> transaction split and application of a default GST rate?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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[GNC] automatically account for gst on random purchases

[Karl May]

Hi all,

For my business setup I am wondering whether there is a way to automatically 
account for gst on small random purchases (e.g. hotel, restaurant etc.).

My current setup is roughly

Assets:financial_assets:bank_account
Assets:financial_assets:gst
Expense:travel

So far I haven't setup Accounts/payable and Accounts/receivable.

The current process is:

A) import bank account transactions via OFX into "bank_account" and 
"imbalanced"
B) manually go through all transaction, use "split transaction", manually 
calculate the gst and assign amounts to Expense:travel and 
Assets:financial_assets:gst.


Any suggestions how this can be automated such that the default is a 
transaction split and application of a default GST rate?

Thanks






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