GNUstep and Swift

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Hi there,


anybody here noticed: https://github.com/apple/swift/pull/12702 
 ?

Apparently Swift is getting support for ObjC on non Darwin platforms with this. 
What is our position towards this?


Kind regards,

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Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 01.01.2014 um 19:18 schrieb Riccardo Mottola:

 Hi David,
 
 I totally agree, between Xmas, New Year and bugs I had to time for website 
 coding. If you check what I started on gap.nongnu.org, 

This one looks nice! A clean, modern layout without distraction. Just a little 
idea. Maybe the top navigation could behave like the top navigation here: 
http://www.taz.de/ ? Would you like this idea?

cheers,

Lars
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Re: GNUstep.org website redesign proposal

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 31.12.2013 um 02:09 schrieb Sebastian Reitenbach:

 Hi all,
 
 I guess everybody knows, and also agrees that the GNUstep website is looking 
 fairly dated, and that
 finding contents in it, is somtetimes only possible with help of google.
 the last few days I spent on thinking about the website, what it may need, 
 digging html5 and css3,
 and came up with the following design, that you can find here:
 
 https://www.l00-bugdead-prods.de/index7.html

While nicely and cleanly done, the proposal reminds me somewhat of 
http://www.gtk.org/. I am not sure if this is a good idea, in my opinion people 
could come to the conclusion that we're now some kind of sister project of GTK. 
Which is a strange Idea as everyone involved with GNUstep would confirm, but do 
outsiders know? Is this just me and my view at the layout or are others see it 
the same?

cheers,

Lars
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Re: SVG version of GNUstep logo

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

I did this logo some years ago in Freehand and have it laying around somewhere 
on some disk. I can convert it to SVG.

It's already 3 o clock in the morning here and I just did my last mail check 
before going to sleep. Let me search this tomorrow.


cheers,

Lars

Am 21.09.2013 um 23:51 schrieb Gregory Casamento:

 Does anyone have the SVG version of the GNUstep logo with the Orca?  See 
 attached.   Or at least one at a very high resolution?
 
 Thanks,
 GC
 -- 
 Gregory Casamento
 Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant
 yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa
 (240)274-9630 (Cell)
 http://www.gnustep.org
 http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
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Re: Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 16.05.2013 um 21:50 schrieb Maxthon Chan:

 Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation 
 (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable 
 HTTP server written in Objective-C.)
 
 If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a 
 NeXT box.
 
 I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website 
 homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web 
 development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is 
 pretty much dead.
 
 I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, 
 Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows 
 Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it 
 is pretty much all .net).
 
 This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an 
 equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history 
 of World Wide Web.
 
 And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I 
 implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself 
 written in Objective-C?

Have you ever heard of WebObjects? WebObjects was started by NeXT in 1995 and 
is an object oriented web framework originally written in ObjC (up to version 
4.5) but nowadays in Java (up to version 5.4.3) While still in use at Apple 
internally (for the iTunes Store for instance) the last public release was in 
2008 and it has been deprecated by Apple. Never the less it is still one of the 
most advanced web frameworks out there. Nowadays it is still in use in several 
companies (like the one I work for) and has been extended by a community driven 
effort (Project WOnder).

And now the best part: There is an free software clone of WebObjects 4.5 
available. It is called GNUstepWeb. Get it here:

http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstepWeb
http://svn.gna.org/svn/gnustep/libs/gsweb/trunk/

The documentation is still available at Apple:

http://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/#documentation/LegacyTechnologies/WebObjects/WebObjects_4.5/webobjects.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006775

cheers,

Lars
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Re: [RFC] Cambridge Hackathon

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 23.04.2013 um 18:11 schrieb David Chisnall:

 On 11 Apr 2013, at 08:58, David Chisnall david.chisn...@cl.cam.ac.uk wrote:
 
 How does the first  half of the first week in July sound (1-3rd, Monday, 
 Tuesday Wednesday).  I can try to find accommodation for people for then, 
 and optionally for the weekend before if people want to hang around then.
 
 I've been chasing college accommodation, but it's proving difficult (still 
 waiting for one college).  The term ends the preceding week and most students 
 are still allowed to keep their rooms for the following weekend (and parents 
 / friends are taking all of the empty ones for graduation parties and so on). 
  It looks like accommodation becomes a lot easier if we start on the 
 Wednesday and run through to the Sunday, or if we shift to a week later.  So 
 we have three options:
 
 1) Keep the current dates and I'll try to find guest houses / hotels for 
 people.
 2) Move to the 3rd-5th of July and then stay for the weekend for punting and 
 suchlike
 3) Move to the 8th-10th, with people arriving on the 7th or 8th (Richard on 
 the 5th or 6th for the open day)

Are the final dates out now? Did I miss the announcement?

cheers,

Lars
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Re: Build failed in Jenkins: gnustep #760

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Is nobody trying to fix this? Do you all have blocked those mails meanwhile?

cheers,

Lars

Am 03.04.2013 um 18:08 schrieb greg.casame...@gmail.com:

 See http://gnustep.dnsalias.org:8080/job/gnustep/760/changes
 
 Changes:
 
 [rfm] fix entity parsing in quoted strings
 
 [rfm] fix entity parsing in quoted strings
 
 --
 [...truncated 8905 lines...]
 clang GSKeyBindingTable.m -c \
 -MMD -MP -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_DIR=\.\ -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_CPU=\ix86\ 
 -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_OS=\linux-gnu\ -DLIBRARY_COMBO=\gnu-gnu-gnu\ 
 -DBACKEND_BUNDLE=1 -DGNUSTEP -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -DGNU_GUI_LIBRARY=1 
 -DGNU_RUNTIME=1 -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -fno-strict-aliasing -fexceptions 
 -fobjc-exceptions -D_NATIVE_OBJC_EXCEPTIONS -pthread -fPIC -DDEBUG 
 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -Wall -DGSWARN -DGSDIAGNOSE -Wno-import -g 
 -fgnu-runtime -Wall -fconstant-string-class=NSConstantString 
 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -I../Headers/Additions -I../Headers -I./. -I. 
 -I/var/lib/jenkins/GNUstep/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/Local/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/System/Library/Headers \
  -o obj/libgnustep-gui.obj/GSKeyBindingTable.m.o
 clang GSTextFinder.m -c \
 -MMD -MP -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_DIR=\.\ -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_CPU=\ix86\ 
 -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_OS=\linux-gnu\ -DLIBRARY_COMBO=\gnu-gnu-gnu\ 
 -DBACKEND_BUNDLE=1 -DGNUSTEP -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -DGNU_GUI_LIBRARY=1 
 -DGNU_RUNTIME=1 -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -fno-strict-aliasing -fexceptions 
 -fobjc-exceptions -D_NATIVE_OBJC_EXCEPTIONS -pthread -fPIC -DDEBUG 
 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -Wall -DGSWARN -DGSDIAGNOSE -Wno-import -g 
 -fgnu-runtime -Wall -fconstant-string-class=NSConstantString 
 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -I../Headers/Additions -I../Headers -I./. -I. 
 -I/var/lib/jenkins/GNUstep/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/Local/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/System/Library/Headers \
  -o obj/libgnustep-gui.obj/GSTextFinder.m.o
 clang GSLayoutManager.m -c \
 -MMD -MP -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_DIR=\.\ -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_CPU=\ix86\ 
 -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_OS=\linux-gnu\ -DLIBRARY_COMBO=\gnu-gnu-gnu\ 
 -DBACKEND_BUNDLE=1 -DGNUSTEP -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -DGNU_GUI_LIBRARY=1 
 -DGNU_RUNTIME=1 -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -fno-strict-aliasing -fexceptions 
 -fobjc-exceptions -D_NATIVE_OBJC_EXCEPTIONS -pthread -fPIC -DDEBUG 
 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -Wall -DGSWARN -DGSDIAGNOSE -Wno-import -g 
 -fgnu-runtime -Wall -fconstant-string-class=NSConstantString 
 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -I../Headers/Additions -I../Headers -I./. -I. 
 -I/var/lib/jenkins/GNUstep/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/Local/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/System/Library/Headers \
  -o obj/libgnustep-gui.obj/GSLayoutManager.m.o
 clang GSTypesetter.m -c \
 -MMD -MP -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_DIR=\.\ -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_CPU=\ix86\ 
 -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_OS=\linux-gnu\ -DLIBRARY_COMBO=\gnu-gnu-gnu\ 
 -DBACKEND_BUNDLE=1 -DGNUSTEP -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -DGNU_GUI_LIBRARY=1 
 -DGNU_RUNTIME=1 -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -fno-strict-aliasing -fexceptions 
 -fobjc-exceptions -D_NATIVE_OBJC_EXCEPTIONS -pthread -fPIC -DDEBUG 
 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -Wall -DGSWARN -DGSDIAGNOSE -Wno-import -g 
 -fgnu-runtime -Wall -fconstant-string-class=NSConstantString 
 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -I../Headers/Additions -I../Headers -I./. -I. 
 -I/var/lib/jenkins/GNUstep/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/Local/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/System/Library/Headers \
  -o obj/libgnustep-gui.obj/GSTypesetter.m.o
 clang GSHorizontalTypesetter.m -c \
 -MMD -MP -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_DIR=\.\ -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_CPU=\ix86\ 
 -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_OS=\linux-gnu\ -DLIBRARY_COMBO=\gnu-gnu-gnu\ 
 -DBACKEND_BUNDLE=1 -DGNUSTEP -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -DGNU_GUI_LIBRARY=1 
 -DGNU_RUNTIME=1 -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -fno-strict-aliasing -fexceptions 
 -fobjc-exceptions -D_NATIVE_OBJC_EXCEPTIONS -pthread -fPIC -DDEBUG 
 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -Wall -DGSWARN -DGSDIAGNOSE -Wno-import -g 
 -fgnu-runtime -Wall -fconstant-string-class=NSConstantString 
 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -I../Headers/Additions -I../Headers -I./. -I. 
 -I/var/lib/jenkins/GNUstep/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/Local/Library/Headers 
 -I/home/gnustep/clang/GNUstep/System/Library/Headers \
  -o obj/libgnustep-gui.obj/GSHorizontalTypesetter.m.o
 clang GSGormLoading.m -c \
 -MMD -MP -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_DIR=\.\ -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_CPU=\ix86\ 
 -DGNUSTEP_TARGET_OS=\linux-gnu\ -DLIBRARY_COMBO=\gnu-gnu-gnu\ 
 -DBACKEND_BUNDLE=1 -DGNUSTEP -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -DGNU_GUI_LIBRARY=1 
 -DGNU_RUNTIME=1 -DGNUSTEP_BASE_LIBRARY=1 -fno-strict-aliasing -fexceptions 
 -fobjc-exceptions -D_NATIVE_OBJC_EXCEPTIONS -pthread -fPIC -DDEBUG 
 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -Wall -DGSWARN -DGSDIAGNOSE -Wno-import -g 
 -fgnu-runtime -Wall -fconstant-string-class=NSConstantString 
 

Re: [RFC] Cambridge Hackathon

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

I am also potentially interested in attending the hackathon, although it 
remains to be seen if I am able to attend. It is possible that I know this only 
a very short time before the event. For accommodation I wouldn't need much, I 
have a sleeping bag and a sleeping pad so some space on the floor somewhere 
would be sufficient for me.

cheers,

Lars

Am 26.03.2013 um 15:21 schrieb David Chisnall:

 Hi,
 
 So far I have interest in the Cambridge hackathon from (in no particular 
 order):
 
 Me (obviously)
 Quentin,
 Gregory,
 Fred (not needing accommodation?),
 Niels,
 Slivnik (not needing accommodation)
 Richard,
 Johannes
 
 I'd like to start chasing accommodation this week, so two questions for 
 people are planning on attending (if you're not on the list above, just let 
 me know):
 
 1) Is mid-week a weekend, or some overlap more convenient?
 2) Would you prefer student accommodation (cheap, and we can put everyone in 
 the same college), or fellows guest rooms (3-day limit, nicer rooms, limited 
 availability)
 
 David
 
 
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Re: CoreBase toll-free bridging

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 14.03.2013 um 09:42 schrieb Fred Kiefer:

 Having decided that I googled once more and found this article:
 http://www.mikeash.com/pyblog/friday-qa-2010-01-22-toll-free-bridging-internals.html

Interesting find in a comment there:

http://www.mikeash.com/pyblog/friday-qa-2010-01-22-toll-free-bridging-internals.html#comment-84b004a6a9b2e8b3a5fdec10f73b2393

If you look at the Darwin sources, you'll see that the iPhone's CoreFoundation 
classes are actually implemented in ObjC.

Is that true? If the code is accessible (I did a cursory search but found 
nothing, just this: http://opensource.apple.com/source/CF/ but I can't tell if 
there are iPhone versions amongst this) could we use it (given the license is 
compatible).

cheers,

Lars
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Re: [GSoC Mentors Announce] Google Summer of Code 2013

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 26.02.2013 um 21:20 schrieb Luboš Doležel:

 On 02/26/2013 01:35 PM, Ivan Vučica wrote:
 But, I think offering a mobile GUI for use with a mobile window
 manager on a mobile device is not a bad idea either. Building a
 project that can equally well run under an existing environment (e.g.
 rendering into an Android GL ES context and routing Android events
 into UIEvents), be used for development on desktops (in Xephyr and
 Xnest or even directly) and be used for running on an new platform
 while at the same time offering a recognizable and
 as-compatible-as-possible API... well, I think that's a good thing,
 too.
 
 Well, should such think materialize, I'd be worthwhile - and relatively easy 
 in fact - to support direct launching of iOS apps on Android via Darling. 
 Although I imagine Apple wouldn't be too happy about this, since I assume 
 pirated iOS apps could then be run on (non-rooted) Android devices :-)

I doubt this would be possible since Linux (and so Android) uses a different 
binary format. More likely is that you develop once, deploy everywhere, e.g. 
you just recompile your app for Android using GNUstep. So this is more a help 
for developers than for pirates.

cheers,

Lars
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Re: preview: new macports ports

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 08.11.2011 um 20:04 schrieb Eric Wasylishen:

 Ok, great! 
 
 Here are a few more notes:
 
 - It installs using the GNUstep filesystem layout in /opt/local/GNUstep. 
 Using the fhs layout with macports will not work, because gnustep-make adds 
 the gnustep library path to DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH, which is /opt/local/lib with 
 the fhs layout, and if you add /opt/local/lib to DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH it will 
 mess up macports (basically, tools which link to apple versions of libraries 
 will pick up the macports versions in /opt/local/lib and break.)
 
 - Many of the application ports work now (e.g., gorm, systempreferences). 
 
 - gnustep-back is currently set to xlib. When I use cairo, opening an 
 open/save panel crashes X11.app. Also tried the latest XQuartz: same problem.
 
 - For anyone with OS X 10.7, my ports won't work until this bug is fixed: 
 https://trac.macports.org/ticket/31171 (building gcc46 on osx lion fails). :-(
 
 - One improvement that could be made in the future is to use the system 
 compiler rather than the macports gcc46. For this we would need a portfile 
 which builds one of GNUstep's libobjc's, and make sure that the apple 
 compiler doesn't try to include headers for apple's libobjc.
 
 Regards
 Eric

This is great! Thanks for your effort. Btw. are those ports going to be at the 
macports repository?

Thanks,

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FOSDEM 2012 (was: Re: Could GNUStep allow for iPhone porting to Android?)

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 29.09.2011 um 00:07 schrieb David Chisnall:

 We discussed this a bit at FOSDEM, and the basic idea (I think) was that 
 there would be a slight restructuring of the back end so that Opal would 
 always do the drawing and the window management part would just be 
 responsible for providing Cairo drawing contexts.  If you want to use a 
 system without native Cairo support, you could just render to an image 
 surface and then draw using something else.
 
 Then FOSDEM ended, and no one had the time to implement any of this...


Btw. the date for the next FOSDEM is out since some days:

 Von: Philip Paeps phi...@fosdem.org
 Datum: 12. September 2011 00:26:44 MESZ
 An: fos...@lists.fosdem.org
 Betreff: [FOSDEM] Dates for FOSDEM 2012: 4  5 February
 Antwort an: FOSDEM announcements and visitor questions 
 fos...@lists.fosdem.org
 
 
 All, we have recently agreed with our venue that FOSDEM 2012 will take place
 on Saturday 4 and Sunday 5 February 2012.  It is safe to assume that there
 will also be a beer event as usual, on Friday 3 February 2012.
 
 Looking forward to seeing everyone there.
 
 - Philip
 
 -- 
 Philip PaepsPlease don't Cc me, I am
 phi...@fosdem.orgsubscribed to the list.
 
 
 
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Are we going to participate in 2012?


cheers,

Lars
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Fwd: [fhs-discuss] Call for Participation: FHS Relaunch

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Is this of relevance for GNUstep?

https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/fhs-discuss/2011-May/01.html


regards,

lars

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Re: Default command key under X11

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 02.05.2011 um 05:36 schrieb Eric Wasylishen:

 Hey,
 
 Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control?
 
 My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) 
 are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z 
 for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for 
 these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to 
 switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. I 
 know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using 
 settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts?

Using Ctrl is historically younger than using cmd (on the Mac) or meta (on 
other platforms) and stems from the omittance of such a key on the (historical) 
standard PC keyboard layout. It conflicts with the Ctrl-Key usage in terminal 
windows (where Ctrl-C means something completely different) and is a typical 
quick and dirty Windows-Workaround that somehow became the standard™ like 
many of such Windows misconceptions. 

Short: Control is for terminal, Command is for GUI – don't mix this

 
 Cheers.
 Eric
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Re: GNUstep, Google Summer of Code, and an idea

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 28.03.2011 um 11:52 schrieb David Chisnall:

 Thanks Fred,
 
 Projects that I'd be interested in mentoring:
 
 - Porting GNUstep to the browser.  I committed an Objective-C to JavaScript 
 compiler to Étoilé svn over the weekend.  Many GNUstep classes should work 
 as-is, some will want reimplementing wrapping their JavaScript equivalents 
 (e.g. GSDictionary, GSString, GSArray), and the drawing-related classes will 
 need tweaking to draw on a canvas.  The final step would be implementing 
 DO-over-WebSocket, so you can run view and maybe controller classes in the 
 browser, model classes on the server, and have stuff Just Work™

Hi David and everybody else,

today a co-worker of mine brought the Cappucino-Project to my attention. 

http://cappuccino.org/ is a JavaScript based Web-Framework which basically 
implements the Cocoa-API using Objective-J which is a funky JavaScript 
dialect modeled after Objective-C but implemented in JavaScript itself (it sits 
on top so to say. 

While I consider programming in Objective-J itself rather weird the existence 
of such a framework only points out the importance of David's idea. The world™  
seems to be in need of viable web toolkits! 
And I like the GWT (Google Web Toolkit)-like approach of David of compiling to 
JavaScript better than writing in Objective-J which would IMHO only feasible 
for people already living in the JavaScript-Land. Those people – on the other 
hand – know the Cocoa API very rarely.

So I consider this an important project for GNUstep even if we don't find a 
student for this (which means we need to implement this ourselves). 


cheers,

Lars
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Re: GNUstep, Google Summer of Code, and an idea

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 21.03.2011 um 22:56 schrieb Fred Kiefer:

 On 20.03.2011 20:46, Denis Washington wrote:
 I have seen that the GNU project has been accepted for this year's
 Google Summer of Code, but the ideas list does not list anything related
 to GNUstep. Does that mean that the GNUstep project will not mentor any
 students?
 
 He is right, we already are rather late in the GSoC time line[1] and we 
 didn't even contact the GNU people [2] and told them that we want to 
 participate. I think Adam sorted that our last year. Maybe it still isn't to 
 late to apply with GNU? Anybody willing to contact them? Greg, Adam, Lars?

Sorry, not me this time, I am currently a bit busy.

 I may not be the best person for that this year, having stolen half the GNU 
 dinner reservation at FOSDEM :-)
 
 Next we will have to come up with a list of proposed projects. For this we 
 may just reuse the list from last year [3]. And perhaps add the 
 implementation of UIKit.
 
 As for mentors, we may again reuse last year's list [4]. David already stated 
 that he is willing to do it again and I hope to find time to do so as well. 
 We should try to have plenty of mentors and assign the one that is best 
 suited for the task. Not sure whether lasts years Google SoC accounts will 
 still work or if the mentors all need to sign up again.
 
 Cheers
 Fred
 
 
 [1] 
 http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/timeline
 [2] 
 http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/timeline
 [3] http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Summer_Of_Code_Ideas
 [4] http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Summer_Of_Code_2010
 
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cheers,

Lars
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Google Summer of Code 2011

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

The website for the Google Summer of Code (GSoC) is up: http:// 
www.google-melange.com/


The timeline is here: http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/ 
gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/timeline


the first important date for our project is February 28 19:00 UTC,  
when the mentoring organizations can begin submitting applications to  
Google.



cheers,

Lars





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Re: Is our name confusing people....

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 17.11.2010 um 18:31 schrieb Nicola Pero:


Dropping an established brand name is terribly expensive and wasteful.
No matter how good the new name is, I don't think it would  
compensate for

the loss. ;-)

But, if you want to appeal and communicate to modern audiences, we can
launch new products or projects or packages or initiatives
or whatever you want to call them - they could still be under the  
GNUstep
brand umbrella but can have new names or presentations and appeal  
to different
audiences or communicate differently (even if the content is  
actually very
much simply a subset of GNUstep, maybe repackaged!).  Companies do  
things like these

all the time, no reason why we can't do the same. :-)


Maybe some slogan we use on our website would help to explain. how  
about:


GNUstep - the open source Cocoa

if this doesn't get us in trouble with Apple.



Thanks


regards,

Lars

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Re: Is our name confusing people....

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 17.11.2010 um 22:08 schrieb David Chisnall:

I'd also avoid Moka (sorry Riccardo) because coffee-related names  
sound like they are talking about Java.  In fact, Mocha was often  
used to refer to the (long deprecated) Cocoa-Java bridge, so it  
would be a very confusing name for us.


Yeah, all that coffee stuff belongs to Java - remember SoyLatte  
( http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ )?


Earl Grey would be safe and non-confusing, but also quite a silly  
name.


Because it is british of course, we all know that british stuff is  
somewhat aslant ;-)


So how about Hot Chocolate or even Cacao, but I also wouldn't  
mind Beer.




David

-- Send from my Jacquard Loom



regards,

Lars

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Re: Do we want to apply for a FOSDEM dev room in 2011?

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 06.10.2010 um 12:27 schrieb David Chisnall:


Yes please!

Thank you for once again taking the initiative on this.  I'll  
definitely be there if there's going to be a GNUstep presence again  
this year[1].  I was thinking about applying to do a main-track talk


I would appreciate this. The last time we had a GNUstep maintrack  
talk was when Adam came to FOSDEM in 2002 iirc …




Last year, we talked a bit about trying to organise a group booking  
for the hotel and turning up a day or two early so we got some time  
for hacking / talking before it started.  I'd be interested in  
doing this, if other people are able to get away.


I would be interested, now that the etoile hackathon didn't take  
place this year.




David


regards,

Lars
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Do we want to apply for a FOSDEM dev room in 2011?

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Hi 'steppers,

the next Free and Open Source software Developers European Meeting  
2011 - short FOSDEM 2011 - takes place in Brussels on 5 and 6  
February 2011 (a weekend): http://www.fosdem.org/2011/


The deadline for developers room application is the 16th of Oktober  
2010, so thats just 10 days away: http://www.fosdem.org/2011/ 
call_for_mainspeakers_devrooms

http://www.fosdem.org/2011/call_for_devrooms

I'd volunteer for organizing the dev room but for that I need the  
support of our community (because a dev room without developers isn't  
such a thing). To spare me sleepless nights and such like in the  
years before where initial support was lacking I am only going to  
apply for the dev room if I get lets say about five to ten people  
expressing their interest in a dev room. Just reply to this mail.


and yes, since projects are getting a room only for one day (seems to  
be the new policy since last year) we need to decide if we prefer  
Saturday from 12:00 to 18:00 or Sunday from 10:00 to 17:00



thanks,

Lars

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Re: Testing for drawing fixes r30523

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 11.06.2010 um 19:51 schrieb Riccardo Mottola:


Hi,
Can I use the updated GDI API introduced with Windows 2000? I  
doubt anyone
is currently interested in deploying Windows applications on older  
Windows
versions, but let me know… I'm interested in using  
SetWorldTransform() and

similar to support stuff like rotation.

Doug, if you are stuck because of the issues I introduced, feel  
free to roll

back my changes (r30523 and 30524)…



Yes, Windows2000 is fine. I use it regularly with GNUstep. W2K is  
itself quite old but still widespread.


Mhh, must be something below 1% worldwide as you can see here:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-200906-201006
http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-200906-201006-bar

The only continent where Windows 2000 has still a noteworthy userbase  
seems to be Asia:


http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-as-monthly-200906-201006
http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-as-monthly-200906-201006-bar


cheers,

Lars



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Re: Application releases...

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 13.05.2010 um 18:47 schrieb Gregory Casamento:


All,

Since we just did a major release of core


Was there an announcement of the actual release somewhere? I am only  
aware about the discussion relating to an *upcoming* release.


thanks,

Lars

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Re: Next GNUstep release?

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 30.04.2010 um 22:39 schrieb Gregory Casamento:


Fred,

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Fred Kiefer fredkie...@gmx.de  
wrote:

I think we should decide what to do with the planed GNUstep release.

There hasn't been much progress over the last week. More bugs got
reported than fixed over that time. We can either make a release now,
with a lot of known issues, even some that weren't there a few weeks
ago. Or delay the release indefinitely.
Most of the newly reported bugs are for the Windows platform,  
which we
didn't support that well on previous releases. Even with all this  
issues

GNUstep is a lot more stable there then it used to be.


Some of the problems which were reported are not new.  They've been
there for a while, but are now better documented.


I am currently testing Gorm on Windows with the Windows UX Theme a  
little bit. Are you interested in bug reports on that?


regards,

Lars


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Attempted GORM build on GNUstep/Windows (was: Re: Which bugs to focus on for the release?)

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 20.04.2010 um 01:06 schrieb Adam Fedor:



On Apr 19, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Fred Kiefer wrote:


Am 19.04.2010 17:38, schrieb Adam Fedor:
Seems to I a great solution to the problem. Perhaps we should also  
state

there, why we don't make it the default (some applications wont work
with that setting, as far as I understand) and how to activate,
deactivate it later on. OK, this might be to much text for an
installation panel, but there seems to be some space left on it.



Sure good idea.  FYI,  I've put a preview release of the Windows  
installer on the web site, if anyone wants to test it.


http://www.gnustep.org/experience/Windows.html


I tested the installers the other day. I installed GNUstep System  
0.24.2, GNUstep Core 0.24.2 and GNUstep Devel 1.0.0  in that order.  
Everything worked as expected so far. Then I tried to build GORM on  
that setup like this:


l...@test ~
$ mkdir gorm

l...@test ~
$ cd gorm

l...@test ~/gorm
$ svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/gnustep/apps/gorm/trunk/

l...@test ~/gorm
$ cd trunk/

l...@test ~/gorm/trunk
$ make  make install
This is gnustep-make 2.2.0. Type 'make print-gnustep-make-help' for  
help.
/GNUstep/System/Library/Makefiles/aggregate.make:48: /GNUstep/System/ 
Library/Makefiles/Master/serial-subdirectories.make: No such file or  
directory
make: *** No rule to make target `/GNUstep/System/Library/Makefiles/ 
Master/serial-subdirectories.make'.  Stop.



What went wrong here? Is there something I missed?


regards,

Lars


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Re: Which bugs to focus on for the release?

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 20.04.2010 um 15:41 schrieb Adam Fedor:



On Apr 20, 2010, at 6:02 AM, David Chisnall wrote:



I don't think the problem is the explanation, it's that -core and - 
system seem to be meaningless names.  Maybe renaming -system to  
either -dependencies or -development would make sense?


Neither of those make sense to me though.  -system is the package  
that contains all the required system components to run GNUstep on  
a windows machine,


then it should be named -requirements maybe?

regards,

Lars


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Re: XML GNUstep defaults (was: [flame] NEWS file is useless)

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 27.11.2009 um 20:36 schrieb Richard Frith-Macdonald:



On 27 Nov 2009, at 18:28, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote:



Am 27.11.2009 um 09:39 schrieb Richard Frith-Macdonald:



On 26 Nov 2009, at 17:35, Wolfgang Lux wrote:


Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:


I think directly ~/GNUstep/Defaults/.GNUstepDefaults ?
That's XML for me now and it wasn't.


Oh, that's a hidden file for private use by the base  
library ... kind of surprising that anyone would notice, and  
certainly not something which should appear in news/release  
notes as it's internal information.


Indeed, one shouldn't notice -- except that there was a bug in  
NSPropertyList.m, which did use an incorrect translation for  
ASCII control characters (it was using the old Java \U  
notation instead of numerical character encodings). Due to this  
bug the position of menus was no longer persistent. I've just  
committed a fix for this in svn and now torn-off menus will  
reappear again the next time you start an app.


I partially reverted that ... the code to generate the escape  
sequences was correct, the problem was a failure to parse them on  
reading the result back.


The underlying issue is that certain characters are illegal in  
XML, even when encoded using the #...; syntax!
The list of illegal characters includes ascii code 27 (escape),  
yet OSX uses the escape character as the key for the top-level menu.
If you feed such data to a proper XML parser (such as libxml2),  
it will abort parsing when it encounters the illegal character.


Isn't that a bug?


No ... it's what the XML spec says.

http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec-xml11 says that Finally, there is  
considerable demand to define a standard representation of  
arbitrary Unicode characters in XML documents. Therefore, XML 1.1  
allows the use of character references to the control characters  
#x1 through #x1F, most of which are forbidden in XML 1.0. For  
reasons of robustness, however, these characters still cannot be  
used directly in documents.


That's really interesting ... I didn't know that this was changed  
for XML 1.1



Or are xml-plists still based on XML 1.0?


Yes ... they pre-date XML 1.1.

Here's the header of a property list copied from my (snow-leopard)  
OSX system:


?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8?!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC -// 
Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN http://www.apple.com/DTDs/ 
PropertyList-1.0.dtdplist version=1.0


If we assume that 'XML' property lists will never actually be  
processed by real XML parsers, we don't need the additional  
encoding.


One never knows, maybe at one day somebody wants to write some  
sort of converter using XSLT. Locking out XML tools makes the  
whole idea of using XML for plists somewhat pointless


Perhaps we can change to using XML 1.1 for our plists?


rant
I think the old or classic format is much better readable and  
less verbose - and nowadays after the XML hype people start using  
JSON ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON ) for formerly XMLish  
purposes which is a lot like the classic plist format.

/rant


Yes, the old plist is better in almost every way (addition of date,  
boolean, and numeric types were good extensions though).



I just tried an experiment on OSX.

I copied an existing OSX XML property list, edited it with vi, and  
set the xml version in the header to 1.1 rather than 1.0
I then opened it in the 'Property List Editor' application ... it  
opened perfectly well and I was able to make a small edit.
I then saved it ... the saved output has the '1.0' version header  
again.


So it looks like OSX can read XML 1.1 but still writes 1.0

If there's no problem with OSX reading it ... I see no real reason  
why we can't update our plist code to output XML version 1.1 rather  
than 1.0 ... the only worry then would be that older XML software,  
which didn't support version 1.1,  might have trouble with it.   
That's probably acceptable.




Maybe we should file a bug with OS X on that by explaining them that  
they're writing invalid XML 1.0. A fix would be simple for Apple, I  
think there's nothing to stop them from fixing this. On what occasion  
does the ascii code 27 (escape) get written? Where can I find such an  
invalid XML?


What do you think?


regards,

Lars


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Re: Proposal: new name: pbxbuild - pearbuild

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 19.11.2009 um 02:26 schrieb hansfba...@googlemail.com:




2009/11/19 Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com:

Hans,

The only thing I'm wondering is why pear in particular?   I think
it's good, because it's imaginative.  Additionally, I wouldn't have
wanted the tool to be called gsxcodebuild or gspbxbuild or even
gsbuild as I have a distinct allergy to things being prefixed with GS
simply because they can be.   Part of this comes from having  
committed

the sin myself in the form of my gopen tool. :)   The only reason
it's not open is because there is an open keyword/tool on most
versions of Linux with which it would conflict. O_o


pearbuild because it builds apple software but in an non-apple  
environment,


Some cultural background: in the german language we proverbial  
(don't) compare apples and pears (Äpfel und Birnen) as opposed to  
apples and oranges in english speaking countries:


http://www.phrasen.com/uebersetze,Aepfel-mit-Birnen-vergleichen, 
4592,d.html



You can see this pun here: http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/ (PowerPC  
Architecture Emulator - basically a virtual machine which acts as a  
Mac), here: https://www.pearc.de/ (a company offering hackintoshes)  
and here: http://www.printmyshirt.co.uk/shop1.html?prodid=274 too.



regards,

Lars

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Re: Changes I've been thinking of...

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 08.10.2009 um 12:50 schrieb Richard Frith-Macdonald:



On 8 Oct 2009, at 10:32, David Chisnall wrote:


On 8 Oct 2009, at 07:29, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:


GlobalDefaults.plist does that.


Two questions then:

- Is this actually documented anywhere?  I see a vague reference  
to it in NSUserDefaults, but packagers are absolutely not going to  
read API docs (and should not be expected to.


With the documentation for GNUstep.conf in the main base library  
documentation (I put a link in an earlier email).
I think you have to be realistic ... a packager *does* have to read  
some documentation in order to package a big system like GNUstep  
properly.
It would undoubtedly be good to have some packager-specific  
documentation, but obviously the target readership is a very small  
group 


A small but nevertheless very important group of people. Those people  
are our link to average-joe-users, who don't bother compiling stuff  
themselves. Nowadays the majority of users installs software using a  
package manager or a port system, only the most advanced users will  
still compile software by hand. So if we want GNUstep to be used we  
have to get it into the package systems of those distros. For that to  
happen we need the help of packagers. So we should make sure that  
packaging is as easy and painless as possible. One part of this is to  
teach the packagers the basic principles about GNUstep's architecture  
so they understand how to build GNUstep without banging their heads  
against the wall first.


I already talked about this here: http://groups.google.com/group/ 
gnu.gnustep.discuss/browse_thread/thread/11c448aa294cdee9



As a first measure we should probably just link http://svn.gna.org/ 
svn/gnustep/tools/make/trunk/README.Packaging from the frontpage so  
that this information is available on our website too. That link  
should be prominently visible from the front page of our website.


Later we can create a dedicated web page for this, if it might be a  
FAQ, a wiki page or a beefed up HTML-version of README.Packaging with  
some useful links, for instance to one of the guides from http:// 
wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/User_Guides#Installing_GNUstep (why are  
there so many?) and maybe http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/ 
Dependencies remains to be discussed.



regards,

Lars



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Re: NSSound Reimplementation

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 16.07.2009 um 12:24 schrieb David Chisnall:


On 16 Jul 2009, at 09:30, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:

But ... going back to the issue of avoiding changes to ivars  
breaking ABI in future releases ... the approach I currently favor  
is having a *single* ivar in the public class.  This is a private  
id variable referring to an instance of a private class which is  
used to hold the real ivars.


I really don't like this approach.  It makes the code difficult to  
read, destroys locality of reference, and hurts performance.


Please, please, please, can other people test my non-fragile ivars  
patch so that we can get rid of ugly hacks like this and just not  
declare any ivars in the headers.  I posted it months ago and have  
had absolutely no reports of testing yet.


Maybe it's not clear to everybody what benefits your patch  
introduces. So maybe it would be a good idea to give a short  
enumeration of all the gains to the broader public (I know you're  
good at writing technical articles since I read quite a few off  
them :-)).




David


thanks,

Lars


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Re: NSCalendar and NSLocale support

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 14.06.2009 um 23:10 schrieb Riccardo Mottola:


Hi,

Dave MacLachlan wrote:

Hey there...

I'm looking to add NSCalendar and NSLocale to Foundation. I'm  
happy to implement them, but I was hoping to do it on top of ICU  
(http://site.icu-project.org/).


Are we willing to add a dependency on ICU to gnustep?


This is a typical dilemma. Usually I am a friend of having the  
smallest set of dependencies possible. I checked and ICU is for  
example readily available in gentoo (if not, I would have really  
worried) but it is not for example available on sunfreeware, this  
tells me that it is not that widespread.


Really? SUN should use it:

from http://site.icu-project.org/:

Companies and Organizations using ICU
ABAS Software, Adobe, Apple, Amdocs, Apache Xalan XSLT, Apache Xerces  
XML, Argonne National Laboratory, Avaya, BAE Systems Geospatial  
eXploitation Products, BEA, BroadJump, BluePhoenix Solutions, BMC  
Software, Boost, Business Objects, caris, CERN, Debian Linux, Dell,  
Eclipse, eBay, EMC Corporation, ESRI, Free BSD, Gentoo Linux, Google,  
GroundWork Open Source, GTK+, HP, Hyperion, IBM, Inktomi, Innodata  
Isogen, Informatica, Intel, Interlogics, IONA, IXOS, Jikes,  
Mathworks, Mozilla, Netezza, OpenOffice, Lawson Software, Leica  
Geosystems GIS  Mapping LLC, Mandrake Linux, OCLC, Progress  
Software, Python, QNX, Rogue Wave, SAP, SIL, SPSS, Software AG, Sun  
Microsystems (Solaris, Java), SuSE, Sybase, Symantec, Teradata (NCR),  
Trend Micro, Virage, webMethods, Wine, WMS Gaming, XyEnterprise,  
Yahoo!, and many others.


Products from IBM
Ascential Software, Cognos, PSD Print Architecture, DB2, COBOL, Host  
Access Client, InfoPrint Manager, Informix GLS, iSeries, Language  
Analysis Systems, Lotus Notes, Lotus Extended Search, Lotus  
Workplace, WebSphere Message Broker, NUMA-Q, OTI, OmniFind, Pervasive  
Computing WECMS, Rational Business Developer and Rational Application  
Developer, SSS Websphere Banking Solutions, Tivoli Presentation  
Services, Tivoli Identity Manager, WBI Adapter/ Connect/Modeler and  
Monitor/ Solution Technology Development/WBI-Financial TePI,  
Websphere Application Server/ Studio Workload Simulator/Transcoding  
Publisher, XML Parser.


Products from Google

Web Search, Chrome, Android, Adwords, Google Finance, Google Maps,  
Blogger, Google Analytics, Google Gears, Google Groups, and others.

Products from Apple

Mac OS X, iPhone OS, Safari for Windows, Apple Mobile Device Support  
in iTunes for Windows.



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Re: GCC Exception Handling

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 05.05.2009 um 14:32 schrieb David Chisnall:


Hi Everyone,

I'm currently working on adding exception handling support to  
clang, but coming across some problems trying to understand the  
(completely undocumented) ABI.  It isn't quite the same as the NeXT/ 
Apple ABI, so I am wondering if anyone has any documentation about  
how it is supposed to work?


In particular, the type table needs to be populated with pointers  
to classes for selecting the correct landing pad.  I am currently  
unsure how these are meant to be found.  If anyone knows how this  
is supposed to work, please let me know.


Maybe it's a good idea to ask that kind of questions at

objc-langu...@lists.apple.com

http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/objc-language

that is Apple's list solely for ObjC and ObjC++ *language* topics:  
The ObjC-Language mailing list is offered for developers and  
interested parties in the language development community to discuss  
design and implementation of the core Objective-C and Objective-C++  
languages and runtimes, as used both at Apple and elsewhere.


There are several runtime wranglers of Apple subscribed to that  
list who surely can answer such questions




David


regards,

Lars




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Re: GNUstep base almost builds with clang

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 01.04.2009 um 14:11 schrieb David Chisnall:


If you want an overview of LLVM, you can read this article:

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1215438


I added your interesting article to DZone

http://www.dzone.com/links/ 
how_the_llvm_compiler_infrastructure_works.html


feel free to vote it up



David



regards,

Lars


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Re: [Urgent] GNUstep at Google Summer of Code'2009

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 09.03.2009 um 22:47 schrieb Adam Fedor:



On Mar 8, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Quentin Mathé wrote:

Also who is going to be in charge of the joint application?  
Someone from GNUstep? That sounds likely since it's the umbrella  
project for the application.




I applied for GNUstep last year, so I could do that.



Adam, I also want to say thank you!


regards,

Lars


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Re: [Urgent] GNUstep at Google Summer of Code'2009

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 08.03.2009 um 17:08 schrieb Quentin Mathé:


Le 6 mars 09 à 00:00, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf a écrit :


According to

http://code.google.com/soc/

there is not much time left until applications are accepted:
[snip]
Therefore I have created the following wiki page:

http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Summer_Of_Code_2009

and hope now that this mail results in a fruitful discussion and  
volunteers who take care for GNUstep at Google Summer of Code'2009


I just took a look at this page, there is currently a single  
section with GNUstep ideas…
How should we organize it? Four standalone sections with GNUstep,  
Étoilé, GAP and OpenGroupware or should we list them among the  
current GNUstep ideas?
Is it necessary to replicate ideas from Étoilé SoC page on this  
page or can we just put a link to http://etoileos.com/dev/projects/ 
 ?


Feel free to change the page to how you think it suits the needs of  
Étoilé best. Nothing here is set in stone, instead I just copied an  
old SoC page just to get the ball rolling.




We could also put the GNUstep ideas on a separate page and just  
list the four projects on the main one with links to their  
respective page with SoC ideas.


Also who is going to be in charge of the joint application? Someone  
from GNUstep? That sounds likely since it's the umbrella project  
for the application.


I hope somebody with more experience regarding SoC takes over soon.



Cheers,
Quentin


regards,

Lars


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Re: [Gnustep-cvs] r27810 - in /libs/gui/trunk: ChangeLog Source/NSImage.m Source/NSScrollView.m

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 08.02.2009 um 13:07 schrieb Fred Kiefer:


Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:

Author: rfm
Date: Sun Feb  8 12:02:57 2009
New Revision: 27810

URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/gnustep?rev=27810view=rev
Log:
Use proxies for named images so that changes to images are  
nstantly reflected

when you change themes.

Modified:
libs/gui/trunk/ChangeLog
libs/gui/trunk/Source/NSImage.m



Richard,

could you please explain a bit the motivation behind this change?  
It not

only gives me warnings when compiling what is worse I don't understand
the reason for this code when inspecting it.


May I chime in here? While not being a GNUstep developer, I develop  
software to make my living. From experience I learned that short, to  
the point comments in the code help a lot to remember the intentions  
behind not so obvious parts of the code (I remember being puzzled  
over some code I wrote myself after looking at it several months  
later). Especially if you're working in a team (there situations  
where you simply can't tell if something was done because it must be  
done that way or if somebody didn't know any better or was just lazy).


Well I am just shooting in the dark here (I even didn't look at the  
code in question, maybe there even are some comments - in that case  
never mind), but this is not meant as criticism but as a hint from  
somebody who learned it the hard way.



regards,

Lars


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Re: [FOSDEM] Accepted: GNUstep+Etoilé+O penGroupware.org devroom

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 09.01.2009 um 15:20 schrieb Nicolas Roard:


Hi,

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Helge Hess  
helge.h...@opengroupware.org wrote:

BTW: I think someone asked about hotels to avoid? :-)

IMHO it would be a good thing if we would all stay in the same  
hotel, and

maybe we could get an offer if we book as a group?

I think the one selected by Nicola last year was quite good:

 http://www.hotel-argus.be/

Lars, can you organize that?


Any news on the hotel ?


not now. I did not ask yet (since I did not know who really wants to  
come)




--
Nicolas Roard
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound
they make as they fly by. -- Douglas Adams


yeah, deadline is tomorrow, I can already hear the whoosh


regards,

Lars


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Fwd: [FOSDEM] Accepted: GNUstep+Etoilé+ OpenGroupware.org devroom

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

GNUsteppers, Étoilists and OpenGroupwarers rejoice!

We got our developers room for FOSDEM 2009.

Now I am looking forward that this convinces some undecided minds to  
turn their heads around and come to FOSDEM next February.


more later.


regards,

Lars


Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail:


Von: Pascal Bleser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Datum: 1. Dezember 2008 01:30:05 MEZ
An: Sonchocky-Helldorf [EMAIL PROTECTED],   
Gregory John Casamento [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nicolas Roard  
[EMAIL PROTECTED],  Helge Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED],  
Gerold Rupprecht [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Nikolaus H. Dr. Schaller  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Betreff: [FOSDEM] Accepted: GNUstep+Etoilé+OpenGroupware.org devroom
Antwort an: FOSDEM DevRooms [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi folks

Your devroom request for FOSDEM 2009 (7+8 February) has been accepted.
Note that, as requested, it will be in a small (31 seats) room, but  
for

both days.

Details will follow (deadline for schedule, information we need for  
the

schedule, room capacity, etc...).

Welcome aboard, and thanks for your participation in FOSDEM 2009 :)

cheers
- --
  -o) Pascal Bleser [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.fosdem.org
  /\\ FOSDEM 2009 :: 7 + 8 February 2009 in Brussels
 _\_v Free and Opensource Software Developers European Meeting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

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Re: GNUstep on 64 bit Windows - Patch for gnustep libobjc submitted

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 20.11.2008 um 10:18 schrieb Roland Schwingel:


Hi Lars

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote  
on 11.11.2008 19:12:34:
 It would be great of you if you could submit those patches also  
to   the GCC mainline via http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/ so that  
both forks   don't diverge even further.


 Select libobjc as component in bugzilla (and be prepared for  
some   follow up comments by others)

 regards,

Lars

In the meantime we have already submitted the patch to gcc  
mainline, too.
We already got an permit to check it in, so expect to see it merged  
there soon, too.


That is great news!



Regards,

Roland



Thanks,

Lars


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Re: GNUstep on 64 bit Windows - Patch for gnustep libobjc submitted

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 11.11.2008 um 15:47 schrieb Roland Schwingel:


Hi...

As already announced some days ago I will now start to submit the  
patches for GNUstep base/libobjc to be working natively on 64bit  
windows.


This first patch submitted (patch #6668) in savannah's patch  
manager covers the libobjc runtime. It is basically fixing gcc 4.4  
warnings and only 2 slight
modifications for dllimporing/exporting symbols due to some changes  
in binutils/windows dll loader...


So I hope this can easily be applied.

Some general words: Everything looks quite well at presents, thanks  
to the excellent work of the gnustep people over the last years for  
64bit linux support. We already have the first code up and running  
natively on 64bit windows! The first patch for gnustep-base will be  
submitted soon. The basic things appear to work quite nice. Full  
testing will take some additional time.


There is some issue about length of unsigned and method signatures,  
but I will outline that in a seperate email.


It would be great of you if you could submit those patches also to  
the GCC mainline via http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/ so that both forks  
don't diverge even further.


Select libobjc as component in bugzilla (and be prepared for some  
follow up comments by others)




i.A. Roland Schwingel


regards,

Lars










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Re: GNUstep SCALE Attendance

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 17.10.2008 um 16:28 schrieb Gregory John Casamento:


All,

Is anyone available to go to SCALE in California? For those who  
don't know SCALE is the (S)outhern (CA)lifornia (L)inux (E)xpo,  
it's website is: http://scale7x.socallinuxexpo.org/.  I would  
really like for us to have a presence there.   The new WindowMaker  
guys have said that they are willing to share a booth with us,  
which would be really cool.


At any rate... as it turns out, I may indeed be able to attend as  
well.  I would like to get the word out there that we are still  
around and that we're active.


So, if you're in CA and you're interested in GNUstep, let me know  
if you would like to attend.


 select * from people where state = 'CA' and interested_in_gnustep  
= 'Y' and lives_close_enough = 'Y' and has_time = 'Y';


You're doing it wrong!

NSArray *keys = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@state,  
@interested_in_gnustep, @lives_close_enough, @has_time, nil];
NSArray *objects = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@CA, @yes, @yes,  
@yes, nil];
NSDictionary *values = [NSDictionary dictionaryWithObjects:objects  
forKeys:keys];


NSArray *attendees = [[[self session] defaultEditingContext]  
objectsMatchingValues:values entityNamed:@GNUstepDeveloper];


;-)

regards,

Lars




(Geek humor) ;)

Later, GC
Gregory Casamento -- Principal Consultant - OLC, Inc
# GNUstep Chief Maintainer


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Re: Summer of Code 2008

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Is someone taking care of this?

Regards,

Lars

Am 03.03.2008 um 22:54 schrieb Gregory John Casamento:

I think SoC would be a good thing to get into this year.   We need  
to gain momentum and SoC is a good way to get the word out as well  
as get some people interested in GNUstep.


Later, GJC

--
Gregory Casamento -- Principal Consultant - OLC, Inc
# GNUstep Chief Maintainer

- Original Message 
From: Fred Kiefer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: GNUstep Developer gnustep-dev@gnu.org
Sent: Monday, March 3, 2008 4:19:06 PM
Subject: Summer of Code 2008

I just noticed that application for Google's Summer of Code started
today. We have until 12th of March to submit our application as
mentoring organization.

I am not saying that we have to, the result from the projects last  
year
were a bit below of what we expected. On the other hand, in the end  
the
KVO and KVB code that was done during SoC started our  
implementation in
that area. Without that it might have taken us another year to even  
look

at it.

Cheers,
Fred


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Re: Google SoC progress

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Thumbs up Adam for managing SoC so well!

regards, Lars

Am 11.04.2007 um 18:47 schrieb Adam Fedor:

The list of projects for the Google SoC is almost finalized.  It  
looks like we will most likely get 2 students this year, both with  
some pretty interesting projects:


http://code.google.com/soc/gnustep/open.html

(you may have to sign up to see this...). This is typical for the  
number of applications we received (the number of projects is  
fairly well related to our 'popularity' as judged by the number of  
applications received.) I've also assigned mentors, but it is  
possible to change this later if there is keen interest from some  
one - also I expect anyone with interest to stay involved  with the  
project anyway.  The number of projects is also related to our  
performance in previous years, so we should try hard to make this  
year work as it will help us next year.


If you have any last minute questions or comments for the students,  
please get them out now.  I've found out that other projects are  
fairly rigorous about students they accept - e.g. asking for code  
samples and judging how they respond to criticism of their code.





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Re: Please digg this, we want GNUstep's Summer of Code participation's place in the limelight!

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 19.03.2007 um 20:18 schrieb Stefan Bidigaray:

It seems like the votes have stagnated!  I'd like to see this go to  
the front page, yet we only have 39 diggs so far, I can't believe  
there are only 39 people that read these mailing lists who are  
interested in GNUstep.  I'm not sure how many diggs we need to get  
to the front page, but I think it's 40, which means we only need 1  
more vote, come on people!


Thats seems to be no fixed number, according to [1] several other  
secret factors are considered. I've seen stories with only 35 diggs  
on the frontpage and stories with more than 60 diggs gone  
unpublished. Blogging about it is also said to be helpful.


But then again: new game, new luck: http://gnustep.blogspot.com/ 
2007/03/help-port-webkit-to-gnustep.html




Just do it!
Stefan


[1] http://computer.howstuffworks.com/digg.htm

regards, Lars


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Re: Please digg this, we want GNUstep's Summer of Code participation's place in the limelight!

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 16.03.2007 um 01:43 schrieb Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf:

http://digg.com/programming/ 
GNUstep_participates_in_Google_Summer_of_Code_2007


http://gnustep.blogspot.com/2007/03/summer-of-code-2007.html


about 50 diggs should do it.


I think we are half there, already 25 diggs! great work folks, we are  
already big on http://digg.com/programming/upcoming/cloud



regards, Lars



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Fwd: [OG #148744] Fwd: Is the pre WebKit OmniWeb Code available?

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

FYI, no luck with OmniGroups code ...

Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail:


Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Datum: 8. März 2007 19:09:05 MEZ
An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Betreff: [OG #148744] Fwd: Is the pre WebKit OmniWeb Code available?
Antwort an: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hi Lars,

Sorry for my delay in getting back to you. The consensus over here  
is that your best bet is probably to try to get WebKit ported over.  
Our frameworks were originally written 10+ years ago and just  
aren't capable of handling todays web, the very reason we switched  
over to WebCore in version 4.5 and the full Webkit in version 5.5.


Also, many of our frameworks are open source. You can access them  
on our FTP but yeah, I don't believe what you're looking for is  
contained within the package any longer.


Thanks,
Troy



[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf - Tue Mar 06 11:41:44 2007]:

Hi,

I am writing you on the behalf of the GNUstep project ( http://
www.gnustep.org/ ). We are currently investigating the possibilities
of getting some sort of web browser for our project, which seems to
be no trivial task given that the most code available is not written
in ObjC or for the OpenStep Libraries (what makes heavy porting from
other libraries and/or toolkits necessary). Even some browsers
written for Cocoa are not easy to port - WebKit relies heavily on
CoreFoundation and ObjC++ (which is not finished for the gnu-objc-
runtime) and Camino has lot of Carbon dependencies (despite other
pitfalls). So both situations are not easy to resolve.

Since I am a long time OmniWeb user (since version 4.0.1) I know that
all pre 4.5 versions used some ObjC Framework written by your company
internally. Since you switched to WebKit with version 4.5 I guess you
still have the code laying around somewhere without much use for you.
What I am asking you now is if it would be possible to get hold of
that code under a reasonable license so that we have a head start for
our browser efforts. I know the code is not very up to date but I
think it still demands less work than all the other alternatives (If
you're curious what has been discussed read the threads with GNUstep
web browser in the topic here: http://news.gmane.org/
gmane.comp.lib.gnustep.general/ ). Potentially some money will be
available if that's the show stopper but don't expect to much (in the
range about $ 500, we are a voluntary free software project and get
all our money from some donations).

I'd certainly want to hear from you, even if your response is
dismissive.


best regards, Lars S.-Helldorf

p.s.: I cc'ed this mail to Gregory John Casamento, the maintainer of
GNUstep










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Please digg this, we want GNUstep's Summer of Code participation's place in the limelight!

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

http://digg.com/programming/ 
GNUstep_participates_in_Google_Summer_of_Code_2007


http://gnustep.blogspot.com/2007/03/summer-of-code-2007.html


about 50 diggs should do it.

regards, Lars


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Re: GNUstep development vmware appliance on Solaris 10

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Get in contact with Andreas Hoeschler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) or Mark  
Brünink ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) of SmartSoft, they use Solaris in their  
company


regards, Lars

Am 13.01.2007 um 21:37 schrieb T.J. Yang:

I like to create a this vmware image that any new comer (that is  
me ;) can easily compile gnustep on solaris 10 by just a simple  
command make gnustep.


Ok that is goal, here is the plan.

1. Create a 10G(or less) big soalris 10 image.
2. install Sunstudio with patches.
3. install patches for solaris 10 x86.
4. install obj compiler from blastwave.org
5. release the makefile and sources needed to achieve.
  5.1 make clean erase all existing gnustep compiled binaris
  5.2 make gnustep compile all the make,core etc gnustep components.
  5.3 make gnustep upload=1 will turn the install binary into sun  
package formats

and upload to ftp.gnustep.org.
Detail of this need to be work out.

What you can help ?
1. login into the prototype vmware image at my home to help debug  
the compilation issue.

2. please send me an email if you can help.

Life is short, I don't like spend hours to resolve the issue myself  
when others can help easily.



Regards

tj



T.J. Yang

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Re: WebObjects Dev tools (Re: some GSWeb wiki pages updated / added)

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 03.01.2007 um 10:19 schrieb David Wetzel:


Lars wrote:


Since Apple is going to deprecate the Java bridge and all the WO
tools in foreseeable future (next WWDC, Leopard?) it is maybe a good
idea to integrate with these. Although WOLips is Eclipse based (and
Java this way) there is at least an existing infrastructure to build
on (or to port to ObjC maybe?) which would need some minimal
extension (mainly some sort of ObjC editor (could be based on http://
www.eclipse.org/cdt/ possibly?) and some ObjC builder support).


I do not care about the Java bridge.


But EOModeler cares. EOModeler uses the Bridged JDBC Adaptor to  
connect to the Database. So if the Java bridge is gone EOModeler runs  
no longer.



The only tools I am using here are EOModeler and WOBuilder.
For EOM, there seems to be already something on the way.


In WOLips you've got Entity Modeler which is basically EOModeler  
without the graphical view.


WOB is a much harder task since it requires integration with  
somthing that can render HTML like

WebKit.


I for my part don't consider this critical since I can live without  
it. I use the HTML Editor as part of the WOD component editor which  
WOLips provides on a daily base. It supports syntax highlighting,  
syntax checking and code formatting which is more important for me  
than to have a rendering preview. If you're creating highly dynamic  
pages the preview WOBuilder provides isn't very useful anyway. But of  
course everybody has his own preferences.


For me, these two tools are a big improvement in productivity. That  
is why we should have GNUstep
versions of them in the long term. Editing WOComponents in a text  
editor is slower and tends to have

more syntax errors than generated ones.

Actually, it may be possible to create a single graphical Editor  
that can edit Renaissance XML and

WOComponents.

Any ideas?

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regards, Lars



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Re: some GSWeb wiki pages updated / added

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 02.01.2007 um 11:39 schrieb David Wetzel:


Hi,

I added the following page:

http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GSWComponent

This still needs some more text:

http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Creating_A_Simple_GSWeb_Application

any comments/hints?


Meanwhile there are open source tools for WebObjects available:

http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/WOLips

Since Apple is going to deprecate the Java bridge and all the WO  
tools in foreseeable future (next WWDC, Leopard?) it is maybe a good  
idea to integrate with these. Although WOLips is Eclipse based (and  
Java this way) there is at least an existing infrastructure to build  
on (or to port to ObjC maybe?) which would need some minimal  
extension (mainly some sort of ObjC editor (could be based on http:// 
www.eclipse.org/cdt/ possibly?) and some ObjC builder support).




dave


regards, Lars


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Re: Plans for change....

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 16.12.2006 um 05:10 schrieb Gregory John Casamento:


All,

I've written up a short list of things that I want GNUstep to  
accomplish in the year to come:


As Chief maintainer, it is up to me to determine the direction of  
the project.



.
.
.

2)
Make regular releases. Start courting different distributions to
include GNUstep in their package set. Start getting the word out.  
Start

making sure that people KNOW that GNUstep is alive and well. This, I
believe, is the main reason why people have the perception that  
GNUstep

is dead. We don't push ourselves hard enough and into enough
distributions to be visible enough for people to care.


may I, as a part of getting more press coverage for GNUstep, submit  
your mail to slashdot or do you think it is to early for such a step  
and we should discuss the matter first?


regards, Lars




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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 12.09.2006 um 15:49 schrieb Yavor Doganov:


В Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:30:14 +0200, Chris Vetter написа:


however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was
supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice
for the GNU operating system...


This is still more or less true -- with GNOME being steadily absorbed
by the proponents of the Open Source Campaign and slowly, but
permanently diverting from its initial goals, GNUstep remains as a
backup variant.

I don't think that such an advertisement should ever mention Windows
or any other proprietary platform -- after all, support for these
systems is a bonus, but not an essential goal.  The purpose is to
replace all non-free software completely, not to enhance it.


This is ideological thinking. But if you want to achieve an objective  
in practice you'll have to think practically and do practically  
things, like give something to get something (which is also an very  
good social behaviour). And it's the best if the something is  
actually something somebody needs and gets a benefit from. That  
something most Cocoa developers - e.g. the people that actually  
*use* some kind of OpenStep today - need would be some possibility to  
port their software to Windows. If we could offer that seamlessly we  
would gain a huge interest in that community without the need to  
convince people to use OpenStep in the first hand (e.g. explain to  
them why that obscure framework using an even more obscure language  
with ugly square brackets instead of just standard C++ or  
standard Java would make sense to them).


Or to cut a long story short: If you want to make people to use your  
stuff you must offer them a purpose to do so (for instance I don't  
use a flat iron since I have mostly tees and sweaters).


Cocoa developers have a huge need for a porting solution to windows  
(just listen to the discussions on cocoa-dev. If we could get them to  
use GNUstep for that, at least some of them will send in bug fixes  
and patches, that is for sure (/me points at Andreas Hoeschler  
here ;-)). Maybe the one or another would stick then. And as a  
surplus we also would get some more apps for GNUstep (even if some of  
those would be commercial ones).





I suspect this ad is for the Take Action section, so how about
something like this:

,
| Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free
| object-oriented framework for application development, and help it
| achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment.
`



Just good will and appealing to it alone is not enough. Thats maybe  
makes you feel better but you won't reach a single target that way.




FYI, I have write access for www.gnu.org so I can help if needed, once
you agree on the wording and RMS acks it.



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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 13.09.2006 um 01:12 schrieb Philippe C.D. Robert:



The GNU project *is* about ideological thinking, at least to some  
degree. Don't forget, you would not be able to use any GNU software  
if everything was only about commercial success and practical  
things. I seriously question that GNUstep (or its advertising)  
should be focused on some (commercial, Cocoa) developers targeting  
Windows. This would be just wrong IMHO.


Well, to some degree. But if you start to hold the pureness of your  
idea in higher regards than the goal you want to reach (freedom?)  
you're doomed. You start to go after the people that  deviate from  
your idea. Just look at the former eastern block or at some religious  
movements (both had/have the official intention to make the world a  
better place)




As a side note, you don't have to convince Cocoa developers to use  
this obscure framework using an even more obscure language ;-)


Exactly what I said. You don't have to convince those. But you would  
have to convince all those C++ heads out there, which would be much  
more difficult as a start (a lot of programmers are somewhat  
religious about their favorite language, aren't we) than to do it  
step by step (hey, even our project has that step moniker in it's  
name ;-)) not overrating our possibilities (If you want to go cross a  
river you could try to walk over the water, start to build a bridge  
or just swim.)




-Phil


regards, Lars


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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 11.09.2006 um 05:00 schrieb Adam Fedor:



On Sep 9, 2006, at 11:49 PM, Gregory John Casamento wrote:


Adam,

Is it an ad for new developers or an ad urging end-users to try  
GNUstep?


It's more of an add to get more help, but I think getting more  
users would provide the same benefit.


O.k. then we should try to get developers who have both Windows and  
Unix experience to advance the Windows port of gnustep (esp. GNUstep  
GUI) IMHO. From what I have perceived from the mailing lists it's  
that kind of people we lack most.






regards, Lars


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Re: GNUstep Native Framework Support

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am Donnerstag, 08.09.05 um 16:53 Uhr schrieb Jeremy Bettis:

The huge benefit of writing software for windows is that there are 
millions of potential customers for you to sell/give your software to.




The huge benefit of running windows is that there are millions of 
friends who offer you to share their stolen software.


Sorry, I simply could not resist here. It might sound odd but I heart 
of many developers who were surprised on how much they actually could 
sell to Mac users despite the minor market share OS X has. I think it 
is a well pampered urban legend that the huge Windows-market makes 
you earning big profits. Never forget that the biggest piece of cake 
attracts the most hungry birds (e.g. competitors) and that the warez 
subculture flourishes there.


regards, Lars

p.s.: I have no objections against you as a windows developer, I merely 
just don't share the common views on that market. Nevertheless I think 
a stable Windows Version of GNUstep is very important - but this is 
another story than above: GNUstep is free software, so no profit 
problems here.




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Re: STS Template Engine

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am Montag, 25.07.05 um 22:26 Uhr schrieb Helge Hess:


On 25. Jul 2005, at 02:35 Uhr, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote:
Well, my first thought was: why another templating engine? We  
already have WO (either in SOPE or in gstep-web).
maybe because WO would be overkill for some simple tasks (or do you  
use a semitrailer truck to carry a crate of beer to your home)?


Hear hear! ;-)

The WO framework just has ~20 public classes and is hardely a truck,  
its rather a beautifully modular bike:
   
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/LegacyTechnologies/ 
WebObjects/WebObjects_4.5/System/Library/Frameworks/ 
WebObjects.framework/ObjC_classic/WebObjectsTOC.html


I wasn't aware that WO was such a lithe and lissom animal once. it has  
put on a lot weight since then (Java disease?). This:  
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/WebObjects/Reference/API/ 
index.html is definitely a truck. (and yeah, you omitted EOF, could you  
install WO without it those days?)




Stripping down to the classes required for templating you may end up  
with something like 5-10 classes for text rendering.


Greets,
  Helge


regards, Lars


--
http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/
OpenGroupware.org


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Re: STS Template Engine

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am Montag, 25.07.05 um 01:23 Uhr schrieb Helge Hess:


On 21. Jul 2005, at 16:53 Uhr, Markus Hitter wrote:

Am 21.07.2005 um 16:03 schrieb Sunrise Ltd:
we've just released the STS TemplateEngine, a library for expanding 
templates using tagged placeholders and it features its own macro 
lanuguage for conditional template

expansion.

This is was I thought first:


Well, my first thought was: why another templating engine? We already 
have WO (either in SOPE or in gstep-web).


maybe because WO would be overkill for some simple tasks (or do you use 
a semitrailer truck to carry a crate of beer to your home)?




Greets,
  Helge


regards, Lars



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Re: Windows and GNUstep

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am Donnerstag, 07.07.05 um 08:41 Uhr schrieb Philip Mötteli:


Hi


Am 07.07.2005 um 00:13 schrieb Wolfgang Sourdeau:

La plume légère, vers Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 03:13:58PM -0400, heure 
d'inspiration,

Adam Fedor écrivait en ces mots:


What can we do to make this happen? Could we buy someone a dedicated 
Windows computer if they promised to work on the Windows port? 
Perhaps pay a Windows programmer to help us?




IMO, getting GNUstep to work correctly on Windows is something 
important

too. But it is probably not as important to fix now than to fix other
incompatibilities with Mac OSX. People who will use the Windows port 
are

likely to be interested in it because of GNUstep's compatibility with
the OSX api (otherwise they'd probably just use GNUstep for 
GNU/Linux).

And although we're (slowly) getting there, I think there are too many
important little things to fix beforehand. And for that matter, 
sticking

on one platform brings more benefits:
1) it avoids the disappointing that people could feel when trying
   something that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't;
2) it let us focus on the inner problems rather than both the inner
   problems and the cross-platform issues.

Besides, having enough stability in GNUstep will likely attract more
developers.



That's exactly the reason, why I do not agree with this opinion. 
Having a Windows port, which allows most developers to port their 
software to Windows, by just investing no more than 3% of their 
software's cost, would attract so many developers, that this would 
bring on GNUstep much quicker, than a perfect version of OpenStep 
running only on Linux.
I mean, after all, we had that situation for years now: GNUstep works 
well on Linux, but has not been interesting for most of the 
developers. The big potential of OpenStep developers are Mac 
developers and Mac developers don't targetLinux, they target Windows. 
If we want those developers to help GNUstep, we have to change their 
perception of GNUstep's Windows port.
By just concentrating our few tiny little forces to make just one 
Linux port, but perfectly and complete, we will never arrive there, 
because of too little manpower.
In my eyes, the manpower lies in GNUstep's Windows port. And the 
manpower is, in my eyes, GNUstep's only problem.




True words, I could not have expressed this better.



Re
Phil


Lars






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Re: GNUstep improvements bounty

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am Freitag, 17.06.05 um 14:06 Uhr schrieb Stefan Urbanek:


Citt Riccardo [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

snip

I stress my point that it is only for the time being that I would 
stress

the importance of completing and stabilizing -core before adding more
meat to the fire.
You port your mega-app to gnustep thanks to coredata and coreimage and
then discover it is unreliable in operation because of some bug deep 
in

-core ? wouldn't you be frustrated?



This unreliable application will discover bugs that would not be 
discovered
without this application. How can you find and fix all bugs in 
gnustep? You

can:

- Invest in full GNUstep testsuite for every feature. Is that doable 
in a
reasonable time with reasonable number of resources? Are you able to 
identify
all features that sohuld be teste? Are you able to identify all cases? 
If not,
how you can be sure that the most important bugs are fixed? Some bugs 
are not

visible at first look.
- Or you can explore the code by yourself, looking at each line of 
code. Can

anyone do that?
- Or you can create or port bunch of applications and see what is 
wrong then fix

it.

The last option will kill two flies with a single hit.



New applications may help in the first run, but what usually happens 
with software is that you introduce new bugs when trying to fix some 
(think of the NSTableView issues lately). While it is possible to 
discover those bugs with those new applications the problem here is the 
unsystematic procedure: All cases need to be tested by hand, so some 
cases will be forgotten easily or only discovered by chance later on.


This is the point were a test suite comes in handy: You'll run all 
tests automatically and unattended, you can see the results later in a 
protocol nicely grouped for every architecture you test. Premise is of 
course that the testcases are well-kept, every bug report will be 
required to have a test case generated which exposes the bug and so on. 
This requires, some might hate this word here, some discipline.


A good idea is to have a look into the software development process 
which the GCC team employs:


- There is a main line and release branches in the CVS. At a given 
point in time the main line goes into a bug fixing mode where nothing 
else than bug fixing is permitted. Only if the number of open bugs goes 
below a certain limit a release branch is created where no new features 
but bug fixes are allowed within. Only now the addition of new features 
to the main line are allowed. Bug fixes must be back ported to main 
line too.


- Also in use by the GCC team is a elaborate review process: Unless you 
are maintainer for a certain section you're not allowed to commit an 
unreviewed patch to GCC, but you have to prove that you don't 
reintroduce older already fixed bugs (regressions) by running the test 
suites and get the o.k. for the patch by someone with reviewing 
authority for a certain section which ensures code quality.


This was only a short introduction into the software quality assurance 
process employed by the GCC team. It is described more detailed here: 
http://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html



Well this all sounds annoying and if all the fun will be taken away 
from your hobby, this will be the only way to increase software quality 
of GNUstep.


And never forget: If you want to collect stamps as your hobby (for 
instance), you can't do that on the floor or even in your bed since the 
results will be disappointing. You'll need a table and some tweezers at 
least.


Also, I think that trying to focus on perfecting GNUstep is a waste of 
time.
Perfection will come together with usage and evolution(*). GNUstep 
already is
perfect enough to be used. Any additional bit of perfection will 
not
attract any new user to GNUstep, nor will motivate new developers to 
develop

for GNUstep.


No, this only results in workarounds piled on other workarounds 
(somewhat the situation we have now) and at some point the whole thing 
will colapse because nobody knows any longer why several things are 
done in a certain fashion. I strongly disagree (and I already have 
worked on a lot commercial solutions that suffered from exactly that to 
know that this is the software hell (mostly JAVA/J2EE/WO projects that 
I do for my job)).




Therefore I vote for new frameworks, be them GNUstep innovations or 
ported
frameworks. They will move GNUstep forward, will add new value, will 
find new
bugs, will attract and motivate new developers. Core will be fixed, I 
am not

worried about that.


No, exactly that is wrong. This would give the new frameworks a broken 
foundation which is very hard to fix later on.




Stefan Urbanek


regards, Lars



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Re: More Windows stuff ... example gui apps work for me now

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am Donnerstag, 10.03.05 um 06:35 Uhr schrieb Nicola Pero:
OK ... I did more Windows stuff ... I managed to build gnustep-base 
with
all the additional libs (even if I didn't do any change to get this ...
maybe because I'm installing different libs ?).  I also got the gui
working ... and generally libraries and bundles.  I finally compiled 
some
gui apps -- they work for me!

I was pretty impressed with the gui apps :-)
Anyway, the instructions I follow are starting to deviate a bit from 
the
README.MinGW ... but they are quite simple, almost identical to the
traditional Unix stuff.  Here is what I do if you want to try it out --

I made this into a wiki page:
http://mediawiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Installation_on_Windows
thanks,
 Lars

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