Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Gregory John Casamento]

Xavier,

You've given little information about what you're actually trying to do.  Your 
email details how you would like to solve the issue, but doesn't clearly define 
what the issue is.

Based on the fact that you briefly mention OpenGL, I assume you want to make a 
GNUstep application which displays OpenGL graphics.  GNUstep has an 
implementation of NSOpenGLView which allows OpenGL to be directly displayed in 
the view.   GNUstep does this by creating an OpenGL window and reparenting it 
to the view, thus not incurring any overhead.

Is there some issue with using this?

Later, GJC 

--Gregory Casamento

- Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: gnustep-dev@gnu.org
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:59:00 AM
Subject: question to backend/gui guru...


Hello

I intend to write a SDL+OpenGL application based on gnustep.

I can use gnustep-base without problem, but i'd like to use some parts of
gnustep-gui (event management, ...) without any graphic or window
class/function.

SDL dont provides any graphic function, and I dont want to write à full
SDL+OpenGL backend !!
I dont want to rewrite gnustep in any way. I only want to compile the classes i
need in gnustep-gui. But I understand I would have to write a partial backend,
a "SDL-server", like "win32" or "X11" ones (i hope i can do that...)

I wonder if it would be easy (or at least feasible) to split/compile
gnustep-back and gnustep-gui in two parts : "server" and "system" on one side,
and "graphics" and "gui" on the other side.
(and then use only (SDL-)server/system)
Any informations about dependances between classes will be welcome ! Its quite
obscur for me... :o\

In brief : feasible or not ?  thnks in advance !

Xavier


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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[xavier . glattard]

Gregory,

Thanks for your answer.

I dont want to make a 'gnustep application', but an 'application
using gnustep' ;-)
Actually i want to make a tiny 3D game in objective C. You may see
that as a training (for me) and a test of the efficiency of
objective c for that kind of application. SDL is imho a good choice
for a game, and gnustep is a good choice for objective C.

Basically i need a simple cross-platform multimedia library, with
_joystick_support_, fullscreen display, custom resolution... Gnustep
cant do that, but can do many other useful things. And I'd like to
write some code that might be run/resuse later on a full gnustep
system, and then i have to write some NS-compatible classes.
In brief I need something like a NSApplication class that does not
need any NSWindow object. I could (try to) write it from scratch,
but i'd prefer reuse gnustep classes if i can : they are better than
anything i could make...

TIA

Xavier

Selon Gregory John Casamento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Xavier,
>
> You've given little information about what you're actually trying to do.
> Your email details how you would like to solve the issue, but doesn't clearly
> define what the issue is.
>
> Based on the fact that you briefly mention OpenGL, I assume you
 want to make
> a GNUstep application which displays OpenGL graphics.  GNUstep has an
> implementation of NSOpenGLView which allows OpenGL to be directly displayed
> in the view.   GNUstep does this by creating an OpenGL window and reparenting
> it to the view, thus not incurring any overhead.
>
> Is there some issue with using this?
>
> Later, GJC
>
> --Gregory Casamento
>
> - Original Message 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: gnustep-dev@gnu.org
> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:59:00 AM
> Subject: question to backend/gui guru...
>
>
> Hello
>
> I intend to write a SDL+OpenGL application based on gnustep.
>
> I can use gnustep-base without problem, but i'd like to use some parts of
> gnustep-gui (event management, ...) without any graphic or window
> class/function.
>
> SDL dont provides any graphic function, and I dont want to write à full
> SDL+OpenGL backend !!
> I dont want to rewrite gnustep in any way. I only want to compile the classes
> i
> need in gnustep-gui. But I understand I would have to write a partial
> backend,
> a "SDL-server", like "win32" or "X11" ones (i hope i can do that...)
>
> I wonder if it would be easy (or at least feasible) to split/compile
> gnustep-back and gnustep-gui in two parts : "server" and "system" on one
> side,
> and "graphics" and "gui" on the other side.
> (and then use only (SDL-)server/system)
> Any informations about dependances between classes will be welcome ! Its
> quite
> obscur for me... :o\
>
> In brief : feasible or not ?  thnks in advance !
>
> Xavier
>


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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Adam Fedor]

As long as you don't call [NSApplication sharedApplication] (or, in 
fact, initialize NSApplication at all), you can use classes in the gui 
without a backend.  But you have to be careful not to use any 
classes/methods that cause any display or drawing.  Also you could 
create a dummy backend (something like gsc in gnustep-back). That does 
nothing or does what you want it (see documentation for GSDisplayServer 
and NSGraphicsContext).



On Sep 10, 2006, at 2:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Gregory,

Thanks for your answer.

I dont want to make a 'gnustep application', but an 'application
using gnustep' ;-)
Actually i want to make a tiny 3D game in objective C. You may see
that as a training (for me) and a test of the efficiency of
objective c for that kind of application. SDL is imho a good choice
for a game, and gnustep is a good choice for objective C.

Basically i need a simple cross-platform multimedia library, with
_joystick_support_, fullscreen display, custom resolution... Gnustep
cant do that, but can do many other useful things. And I'd like to
write some code that might be run/resuse later on a full gnustep
system, and then i have to write some NS-compatible classes.
In brief I need something like a NSApplication class that does not
need any NSWindow object. I could (try to) write it from scratch,
but i'd prefer reuse gnustep classes if i can : they are better than
anything i could make...

TIA

Xavier

Selon Gregory John Casamento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Xavier,

You've given little information about what you're actually trying to 
do.
Your email details how you would like to solve the issue, but doesn't 
clearly

define what the issue is.

Based on the fact that you briefly mention OpenGL, I assume you

 want to make

a GNUstep application which displays OpenGL graphics.  GNUstep has an
implementation of NSOpenGLView which allows OpenGL to be directly 
displayed
in the view.   GNUstep does this by creating an OpenGL window and 
reparenting

it to the view, thus not incurring any overhead.

Is there some issue with using this?

Later, GJC

--Gregory Casamento

- Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: gnustep-dev@gnu.org
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:59:00 AM
Subject: question to backend/gui guru...


Hello

I intend to write a SDL+OpenGL application based on gnustep.

I can use gnustep-base without problem, but i'd like to use some 
parts of

gnustep-gui (event management, ...) without any graphic or window
class/function.

SDL dont provides any graphic function, and I dont want to write à 
full

SDL+OpenGL backend !!
I dont want to rewrite gnustep in any way. I only want to compile the 
classes

i
need in gnustep-gui. But I understand I would have to write a partial
backend,
a "SDL-server", like "win32" or "X11" ones (i hope i can do that...)

I wonder if it would be easy (or at least feasible) to split/compile
gnustep-back and gnustep-gui in two parts : "server" and "system" on 
one

side,
and "graphics" and "gui" on the other side.
(and then use only (SDL-)server/system)
Any informations about dependances between classes will be welcome ! 
Its

quite
obscur for me... :o\

In brief : feasible or not ?  thnks in advance !

Xavier




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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Markus Hitter]

Am 10.09.2006 um 22:09 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


I dont want to make a 'gnustep application', but an 'application
using gnustep' ;-)
Actually i want to make a tiny 3D game in objective C.


Did you have a look at Oolite  ?



Markus

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/






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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Fred Kiefer]

I would agree with Adams answer, go for a dummy graphics backend.
Perhaps we could even rewrite the back makefile to have gsc usable as such?
As I understand it you will need a window, or rather event server based
on SDL. Put that into back and perhaps somebody may later add code to
make this a full backend. I love to see huge things being build up by
people only requiring small parts of it.

Fred

Adam Fedor schrieb:
> As long as you don't call [NSApplication sharedApplication] (or, in
> fact, initialize NSApplication at all), you can use classes in the gui
> without a backend.  But you have to be careful not to use any
> classes/methods that cause any display or drawing.  Also you could
> create a dummy backend (something like gsc in gnustep-back). That does
> nothing or does what you want it (see documentation for GSDisplayServer
> and NSGraphicsContext).
> 
> 
> On Sep 10, 2006, at 2:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>>
>> Gregory,
>>
>> Thanks for your answer.
>>
>> I dont want to make a 'gnustep application', but an 'application
>> using gnustep' ;-)
>> Actually i want to make a tiny 3D game in objective C. You may see
>> that as a training (for me) and a test of the efficiency of
>> objective c for that kind of application. SDL is imho a good choice
>> for a game, and gnustep is a good choice for objective C.
>>
>> Basically i need a simple cross-platform multimedia library, with
>> _joystick_support_, fullscreen display, custom resolution... Gnustep
>> cant do that, but can do many other useful things. And I'd like to
>> write some code that might be run/resuse later on a full gnustep
>> system, and then i have to write some NS-compatible classes.
>> In brief I need something like a NSApplication class that does not
>> need any NSWindow object. I could (try to) write it from scratch,
>> but i'd prefer reuse gnustep classes if i can : they are better than
>> anything i could make...
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Xavier
>>
>> Selon Gregory John Casamento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>> Xavier,
>>>
>>> You've given little information about what you're actually trying to do.
>>> Your email details how you would like to solve the issue, but doesn't
>>> clearly
>>> define what the issue is.
>>>
>>> Based on the fact that you briefly mention OpenGL, I assume you
>>  want to make
>>> a GNUstep application which displays OpenGL graphics.  GNUstep has an
>>> implementation of NSOpenGLView which allows OpenGL to be directly
>>> displayed
>>> in the view.   GNUstep does this by creating an OpenGL window and
>>> reparenting
>>> it to the view, thus not incurring any overhead.
>>>
>>> Is there some issue with using this?
>>>
>>> Later, GJC
>>>
>>> --Gregory Casamento
>>>
>>> - Original Message 
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> To: gnustep-dev@gnu.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:59:00 AM
>>> Subject: question to backend/gui guru...
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello
>>>
>>> I intend to write a SDL+OpenGL application based on gnustep.
>>>
>>> I can use gnustep-base without problem, but i'd like to use some
>>> parts of
>>> gnustep-gui (event management, ...) without any graphic or window
>>> class/function.
>>>
>>> SDL dont provides any graphic function, and I dont want to write à full
>>> SDL+OpenGL backend !!
>>> I dont want to rewrite gnustep in any way. I only want to compile the
>>> classes
>>> i
>>> need in gnustep-gui. But I understand I would have to write a partial
>>> backend,
>>> a "SDL-server", like "win32" or "X11" ones (i hope i can do that...)
>>>
>>> I wonder if it would be easy (or at least feasible) to split/compile
>>> gnustep-back and gnustep-gui in two parts : "server" and "system" on one
>>> side,
>>> and "graphics" and "gui" on the other side.
>>> (and then use only (SDL-)server/system)
>>> Any informations about dependances between classes will be welcome ! Its
>>> quite
>>> obscur for me... :o\
>>>
>>> In brief : feasible or not ?  thnks in advance !
>>>



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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[xavier . glattard]

Selon Fred Kiefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I would agree with Adams answer, go for a dummy graphics backend.
> Perhaps we could even rewrite the back makefile to have gsc usable as such?
> As I understand it you will need a window, or rather event server based
> on SDL. Put that into back and perhaps somebody may later add code to
> make this a full backend. I love to see huge things being build up by
> people only requiring small parts of it.
>
> Fred
>
> Adam Fedor schrieb:
> > As long as you don't call [NSApplication sharedApplication] (or, in
> > fact, initialize NSApplication at all), you can use classes in the gui
> > without a backend.  But you have to be careful not to use any
> > classes/methods that cause any display or drawing.  Also you could
> > create a dummy backend (something like gsc in gnustep-back). That does
> > nothing or does what you want it (see documentation for GSDisplayServer
> > and NSGraphicsContext).

I take some time to look inside NSApplication code. This class highly depends
on graphic display. It seems to me that it would be easier to write a
SDLApplication class with a partial NS-like interface, and then use the only
AppKit classes that dont need any display output (not so easy to find :-\ )
And i will follow your advice and create a scaledown SDL backend that will
only handle events.
I might also need a SDLWindow class (singleton!) to receive window specific
events (iconify, expose...), and maybe a SDLOpenGLView class...

I have look at OOlite (thanks Markus !). They dont use NSApplication but they
have created a GameController class based on SDL and other SDL companion libs.
I think they dont use much of AppKit.

Thanks again for your help

Xavier


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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Philippe C.D. Robert]

On 11.09.2006, at 20:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I take some time to look inside NSApplication code. This class  
highly depends

on graphic display. It seems to me that it would be easier to write a
SDLApplication class with a partial NS-like interface, and then use  
the only
AppKit classes that dont need any display output (not so easy to  
find :-\ )
And i will follow your advice and create a scaledown SDL backend  
that will

only handle events.
I might also need a SDLWindow class (singleton!) to receive window  
specific

events (iconify, expose...), and maybe a SDLOpenGLView class...


What are you actually trying to come up with? And what AppKit classes  
would you need exactly in your code? SDL already gives you a lot of  
this functionality you mention. So it might be easier to just use  
gnustep-base + SDL for what you have in mind? This is straight  
forward today, when I did it years ago I had to cleanup the SDL  
source first, removing all the variables called 'id' ;-)


-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip




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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[xavier . glattard]

Selon "Philippe C.D. Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> What are you actually trying to come up with? And what AppKit classes
> would you need exactly in your code? SDL already gives you a lot of
> this functionality you mention. So it might be easier to just use
> gnustep-base + SDL for what you have in mind? This is straight
> forward today, when I did it years ago I had to cleanup the SDL
> source first, removing all the variables called 'id' ;-)
>
> -Phil
> --
> Philippe C.D. Robert
> http://www.nice.ch/~phip

Philippe,

Some of the classes i might use :
(picked up from
www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/Gui/Reference/)

NSColor*
NSCursor
NSEvent
NSFileWrapper
NSFont*, NSGlyph*
NSImage*
NSGraphicsContext
NSOpenGL*
NSResponder
NSScreen
NSSound

At least NSResponder and NSEvent will be very useful.

Yes, I can do all this with SDL. But as i said i prefer reuse what i can and
write code that may be easily reused in a full-gnustep apps.

The SDL headers are quite clean :
- one "id" in SDL_cdrom.h  :
  i dont need it for the moment and i might wrap it easily
- many more in SDL_openGL.h that mainly come from glext.h :
  i will use the real hearders but no glext (later?)

Rgrds

Xavier



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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Philippe C.D. Robert]

Hi,

On 12.09.2006, at 11:29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Some of the classes i might use :
(picked up from
www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/Gui/Reference/)

NSColor*
NSCursor
NSEvent
NSFileWrapper
NSFont*, NSGlyph*
NSImage*
NSGraphicsContext
NSOpenGL*
NSResponder
NSScreen
NSSound

At least NSResponder and NSEvent will be very useful.


If you use SDL and its event handling then you don't need those  
classes as well as NSGraphicsContext , NSOpenGL* and friends. Also,  
how would you want to use NSFont* and NSGlyph* in an OpenGL context?


I assume it is a lot easier to use SDL for all this stuff rather than  
tweaking gui to work w/ SDL. You are still able to use base, of  
course. I've done that myself.


-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip




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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[xavier . glattard]

Selon "Philippe C.D. Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hi,
>
> On 12.09.2006, at 11:29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Some of the classes i might use :
> > (picked up from
> > www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/Gui/Reference/)
> >
> > NSColor*
> > NSCursor
> > NSEvent
> > NSFileWrapper
> > NSFont*, NSGlyph*
> > NSImage*
> > NSGraphicsContext
> > NSOpenGL*
> > NSResponder
> > NSScreen
> > NSSound
> >
> > At least NSResponder and NSEvent will be very useful.
>
> If you use SDL and its event handling then you don't need those
> classes as well as NSGraphicsContext , NSOpenGL* and friends. Also,
> how would you want to use NSFont* and NSGlyph* in an OpenGL context?
>
> I assume it is a lot easier to use SDL for all this stuff rather than
> tweaking gui to work w/ SDL. You are still able to use base, of
> course. I've done that myself.
>
> -Phil
> --
> Philippe C.D. Robert
> http://www.nice.ch/~phip


You're probably right. I've read some appkit source files : all theses classes
seem to be closely bound to each others... very hard to use one without using
some others, and so on. (is this a design choice?)(ie: many classes use some
NSPanel to display error message !)

I've changed my roadmap : I code my project step by step and i'll add some
gnustep classes only when i need them. At end if i really need a display
server... well... I'll work on it.

Thks

Xavier


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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Sašo Kiselkov]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Selon "Philippe C.D. Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

  

Hi,

On 12.09.2006, at 11:29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Some of the classes i might use :
(picked up from
www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/Gui/Reference/)

NSColor*
NSCursor
NSEvent
NSFileWrapper
NSFont*, NSGlyph*
NSImage*
NSGraphicsContext
NSOpenGL*
NSResponder
NSScreen
NSSound

At least NSResponder and NSEvent will be very useful.
  

If you use SDL and its event handling then you don't need those
classes as well as NSGraphicsContext , NSOpenGL* and friends. Also,
how would you want to use NSFont* and NSGlyph* in an OpenGL context?

I assume it is a lot easier to use SDL for all this stuff rather than
tweaking gui to work w/ SDL. You are still able to use base, of
course. I've done that myself.

-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip




You're probably right. I've read some appkit source files : all theses classes
seem to be closely bound to each others... very hard to use one without using
some others, and so on. (is this a design choice?)(ie: many classes use some
NSPanel to display error message !)

I've changed my roadmap : I code my project step by step and i'll add some
gnustep classes only when i need them. At end if i really need a display
server... well... I'll work on it.

Thks

Xavier


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Although that's right, you will miss out all the nice drawing 
capabilities of the PostScript graphics model, like random path filling, 
stroking, clipping, affine transforms and other complicated and nifty 
features. That is, unless you were to use libart or libcairo directly, 
of course.


--
Saso


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