Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests!!!
George, I think you are getting too emotionally and intellectually invested in this issue, my friend, and are likely to get very frustrated because there is no satisfactory solution to the problem that upsets you so much, even though your facts and logic may be sound. Don't make it harder than it needs to be. There are millions of Catholic women who don't suffer the same angst as you seem to be suffering on their behalf. So, what is really going on here? You need to take it, take some of it like most of us, or leave it as some Goanetters have done who apparently find no psychological benefits to balance the problems they see. May they find peace in their decision. The fact you are confronted with is that the Catholic Church is an autocratic, top down, patriarchal religion, where practitioners accept far more on faith alone than your fairly rudimentary list of grieviances, or pretend to. I pointed out practically the whole list, from prophecies, virgin birth, miracles, Holy Trinity, resurrection from the dead, two physical ascensions into heaven, the body and blood of Christ in communion (have I missed anything?). After accepting some or all of this impressive list, overtly or covertly, you are demanding from them human sequential logic in relatively mundane issues like celibacy for priests and women as priests. May I recommend a nice drive down the coast to Pebble Beach or Big Sur, or some soothing yoga to help you chill? --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the reasons Maurice gives below are to be understood as religious beliefs, I have no problem. People believe any number of things. But if they are offered as logical arguments, I have some comments below.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Goans really want to do something for women and THEIR women, do what we will do next month. Have a Goan mother-daughter dinner. And do it across caste lines. Can all the conformists and non-conformists tell us what have they recently done to support their theoretical dissertations about not discriminating against women? Mario reminds Gilbert: This is known as being too cute by half. However, since this is a Goan mother/daughter dinner, aren't you discriminating against non-Goans? And, what castes are you talking about? I thought you agreed with Fr. Jerome D'Souza that there are NO castes in Christianity. Simply put, what I have done about not discriminating against women is to treat all women the same as I treat anyone else, and also to avoid patronising them, all women, not just Goan women.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
Gilbert, Maybe having women cook food is a novel concept in your home, or for people of your generation. However in most Goan (and non Goan)dual income homes I have been to (in N.America at least), sharing responsibility on home chores is pretty routine. So other than coming with excuses on why women should be given a la carte rights, when they visit the catholic cafeteria, please come up with other more impowering suggestions! Marlon --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GL responds: If Goans really want to do something for women and THEIR women, do what we will do next month. Have a Goan mother-daughter dinner. The husband /fathers are the cooks and the waiters at the dinner. Single women are not excluded as they are somebody's mother and daughter. No theology, sociology or anthropology. Just action. And do it across caste lines. Can all the conformists and non-conformists tell us what have they recently done to support their theoretical dissertations about not discriminating against women? Or are they just throwing ideas for others to follow?
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests Taliban Treatment?
Strange it seems —the RC Church that discriminates against women (no women ordination) and treats them like Taliban -- has canonized women ? It does not cost to criticize, without realistic thought. JV --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Goveia replies: George, a learned and highly educated person like you Not true. Please take my word. Mario replies: Folks, take my word, George is both learned and educated, as well as a deep thinker, sometimes to the point of almost drowning, as when he persists in comparing the Catholic Church with the Taliban (more below) George writes: Girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban were forbidden to attend schools, and women would be beaten in public if the Morality Police as much as caught a glimpse of their ankles The last time I checked, all that women in the Catholic Church were being excluded from was the priesthood. I am not trying to have the last word and have this brief comment. If one is being robbed of equality does it matter about the scale of the robbery? I suppose if someone stole 5 lakhs from a bank as opposed to 50 lakhs, the bank should be grateful? All am I am trying to say is that denying women or any other group equality is wrong regardless of color, skin, age, gender, etc. Mario replies: George, you are missing the point entirely, with all due respect, and you are comparing apples with elephants in my opinion. I submit again that when you take the Catholic Church's denial of priesthood to women, while exalting and revering women in every other way, and compare this with the misogynistic Taliban and their proactive physical and psychological abuse of women, you are not comparing the stealing of 5 lakhs and 50 lakhs, you are comparing stealing with murder. While you may even be right that excluding women from being priests constitutes inequality, which it does within your carefully controlled context, what the Taliban did to it's women went waay beyond such a doctrinal anomaly. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women Priests
Diana, Touche. Everyone who is familiar with the inner workings of how most nuns conduct their business and dedicate their lives to helping people where the rubber meets the road as opposed to pontificating from an ivory tower, most without any interest in being priests and being bossed around by Cardinals and Bishops, would know that Diana is right on. --- flower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Standing on the steeple and pontificating to the people, airing profound thoughts with a superior air, massaging their delicate egos, bossing everyone around, crushing any different opinion ruthlessly and doing constant whitewashing jobs are perhaps tasks best left to the men, while we women get on with performing the real nitty gritty chores that keep the world moving. That acutally, is why there are no women priests. Diana
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario Goveia replies: George, a learned and highly educated person like you Not true. Please take my word. Mario replies: Folks, take my word, George is both learned and educated, as well as a deep thinker, sometimes to the point of almost drowning, as when he persists in comparing the Catholic Church with the Taliban (more below) George writes: Girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban were forbidden to attend schools, and women would be beaten in public if the Morality Police as much as caught a glimpse of their ankles The last time I checked, all that women in the Catholic Church were being excluded from was the priesthood. I am not trying to have the last word and have this brief comment. If one is being robbed of equality does it matter about the scale of the robbery? I suppose if someone stole 5 lakhs from a bank as opposed to 50 lakhs, the bank should be grateful? All am I am trying to say is that denying women or any other group equality is wrong regardless of color, skin, age, gender, etc. Mario replies: George, you are missing the point entirely, with all due respect, and you are comparing apples with elephants in my opinion. I submit again that when you take the Catholic Church's denial of priesthood to women, while exalting and revering women in every other way, and compare this with the misogynistic Taliban and their proactive physical and psychological abuse of women, you are not comparing the stealing of 5 lakhs and 50 lakhs, you are comparing stealing with murder. While you may even be right that excluding women from being priests constitutes inequality, which it does within your carefully controlled context, what the Taliban did to it's women went waay beyond such a doctrinal anomaly.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
George - I don't disagree that in the RC church it's a matter of practice and not theology. I too learned that from a Catholic priest. :-)) However, women CAN become CATHOLIC priests, too, just not Roman Catholic priests, but certainly Anglican Catholic, or is that not good enough? I still say that if a woman wants to be a Catholic priest she can do it, period, and there is no good reason to insist on being a woman priest in a denomination where it is not permitted. In my parochial world, it just doesn't make sense for a woman to insist on being a Roman Catholic priest unless there are ulterior motives, such as publicity or a desire to be controversial. Why insist on crashing a party to which you haven't been invited?? Viviana George Pinto wrote: --- Viviana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred - Women CAN become priests, but not in the RC church. If a woman feels called to be a priest(ess), there are MANY denominations for her to choose from, so why not choose one of them instead of banging her head at the Vatican's door? If she were really and truly interested in priesthood, and not just the evening news, a woman can achieve that goal. Viviana This is a bogus argument as the premises are being changed. The argument all along has been women becoming Catholic priests and not what other denominations do or don't. To attack them as seeking publicity on the evening news is an ad hominem argument. As we have seen on this forum, no good reason has been given by those who oppose women priesthood. As a Goan priest mentioned to me last evening, there is no theological reason which excludes women priesthood, but it is a part of Church practice. The lack of opportunity to become a woman priest and the denial to women solely based on their gender is tantamount to treating them as second-class. Much like the Taliban. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
--- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we have seen on this forum, no good reason has been given by those who oppose women priesthood. As a Goan priest mentioned to me last evening, there is no theological reason which excludes women priesthood, but it is a part of Church practice. Mario replies: I don't oppose women priests, but I also think it's more than simply practice and inertia. I will find out the official rationale shortly, if there is one. However, I don't expect any explanation to satisfy you, so don't hold your breath, especially since there is unlikely to be any change in our lifetime. George says: The lack of opportunity to become a woman priest and the denial to women solely based on their gender is tantamount to treating them as second-class. Much like the Taliban. Mario replies: Now here's a REAL bogus comparison, George, and what is worse, a learned and highly educated person like you, ought to know better. Girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban were forbidden to attend schools, and women would be beaten in public if the Morality Police as much as caught a glimpse of their ankles under their burqas, and executed in the soccer stadium in Kabul for anything considered really serious, like being caught kibitzing with a male stranger. The last time I checked, all that women in the Catholic Church were being excluded from was the priesthood. Get real, man. Advocating for women is one thing. Such overblown rhetoric is something else altogether.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
Gabe, You are absolutely correct that a Pope's pronouncement has to be ex cathedra to be considered infallible. --- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 23/04/05, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario and Viviana: ... You can question the Catholic religion all you want, and make rational arguments till the cows come home, and all you'll get in return is major angst. I don't think you can dispute the fact that the Catholic Church is a take it or leave it proposition. In fact, Benedict XVI, who is now infallible in the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals, and also it's leading theologian, has written that he sees no problem with a smaller church as an alternative to compromising on core values. So, there you have it RESPONSE: It is my belief that the Pope is considered infallible only and when he specifically makes pronouncements 'ex cathedra' Cheers, Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
On 23/04/05, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario and Viviana: ... You can question the Catholic religion all you want, and make rational arguments till the cows come home, and all you'll get in return is major angst. I don't think you can dispute the fact that the Catholic Church is a take it or leave it proposition. In fact, Benedict XVI, who is now infallible in the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals, and also it's leading theologian, has written that he sees no problem with a smaller church as an alternative to compromising on core values. So, there you have it RESPONSE: It is my belief that the Pope is considered infallible only and when he specifically makes pronouncements 'ex cathedra' Cheers, Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet]RE: Women Priests - 4th Choice
P D [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some men, in their disillusionment or through subjugation, play the devil's advocate. Admittedly women are much smarter than the male homo sapiens. They have and wisely use their innate sixth sense :-) Pat, This sixth sense, that you talk about, includes the ability to belong to a group and not contribute anything to it? Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
I don't define equality as sameness - behaving just like a man is not my idea of being equal to him. I know some women do, and they're entitled to their opinions, of course. But dressing up in a suit like a man and carrying around a briefcase like a man and working at TRADITIONALLY men's jobs is not my idea of fun OR equality. I'm secure enough as a woman to not have the need to define myself according to a male ruler. Sure, I'll never be Pope, but the Pope will never be Mom, either. I wouldn't give up THAT title for the world. Viviana George Pinto wrote: Mario and Viviana: I am afraid your logic will lead the Taliban in Afganistan and others to conclude that is ok to discriminate against women in the manner they have: that's our religion, take it or leave it. No room for ratioanl thinking, just be obedient to the Dark Ages. Here are some insights into the issue sent to me by a Goan woman by private email so I have not included her name. I am forwarding without comment.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests !!!
--- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario and Viviana: I am afraid your logic will lead the Taliban in Afganistan and others to conclude that is ok to discriminate against women in the manner they have: that's our religion, take it or leave it. No room for rational thinking, just be obedient to the Dark Ages. Here are some insights into the issue sent to me by a Goan woman by private email so I have not included her name. I am forwarding without comment. Mario replies: George, I wouldn't worry too much about the Taliban's attitude towards women if I were you. Firstly, they were blatant misogynists, not just discriminatory. Secondly, they are currently in the process of becoming obsolete. You can question the Catholic religion all you want, and make rational arguments till the cows come home, and all you'll get in return is major angst. I don't think you can dispute the fact that the Catholic Church is a take it or leave it proposition. In fact, Benedict XVI, who is now infallible in the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals, and also it's leading theologian, has written that he sees no problem with a smaller church as an alternative to compromising on core values. So, there you have it. The insights by the Goan woman are reflected and duplicated by similar opinions all over the place, including some leading nuns. Makes no difference, because the Church looks at these things through different lenses. The Church alleges that women are no less than men, they just have a different role. Whether you or me or Viviana like it or not, until the Holy Ghost inspires Benedict XVI or one of his successors that something should change, it ain't gonna happen, as we say in the hood. Finally, I wish you liberal thinkers would study how democratically and well the distaff side of our Church is run when compared to the top-down it's the Pope's way or the highway governance of the priest side. Orders of nuns are largely autonomous and run from the bottom up. Every Mother Superior is elected by her peers, ambition is a demerit, and perceived leadership and personal example rules the day. In addition to studying the dabbawallahs in Mumbai, Harvard should study the governance of any Order of Nuns, each of which is a true major multi-national organization that is organized and managed better than most corporations. The Mother Superior General is elected by the regional Mother Superiors and functions like a CEO, but serves only a maximum of two, six-year terms, then goes back to the mailroom where she began. I have a cousin who is one of these amazing women and I am in total awe of the management principles and style. By the way, there are now fifteen, yes, I said fifteen, orders of nuns that are headquartered in Europe, whose Mother Superior Generals are from India. As one would expect they come from either Goa or Mangalore or Kerala. About eight of them are headquartered in Rome, the others in various other parts of Europe. If one of our journalists are interested in researching and writing about this, please let me know and I'll hook you up.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
Mervyn, I see you are practicing to be a stand-up comedian, but PLEASE keep your day job. George, I was told by the nuns in the Convent school I went to, that no one would go and confess to a female priest, as the general population is under the impression that their sins would not be held in confidence by a woman. I think that is why females are not allowed to become priests. Mervyn
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let us say one had a daughter who grew up to be a CEO candidate in a major company and the Board said to her: we cannot make you CEO because we think you can't keep company secrets. Or she was denied the Prime Minister's job because she could not keep national security secrets? How would she feel? How would you feel if she was your daughter or grand-daughter or niece and that was the reason for denying her the job? George, I don't know if I really want my daughter to have a high pressure job. The reason is that the same convent nuns also told me that work was a punishment from God, for sins committed... Many people treat the idea that women cannot keep secrets as sexist. You may be right on this one. However, the Vatican has a different view of how women should be treated. So the choices I have are: 1) I toe the Vaticans line. 2) I search for another religion where women have equal status. 3) I become a cafeteria Catholic. :-) Mervyn3.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What specific attribute that priesthood requires which women do not have? What specific conceptual difference which matters to priesthood? George, I was told by the nuns in the Convent school I went to, that no one would go and confess to a female priest, as the general population is under the impression that their sins would not be held in confidence by a woman. I think that is why females are not allowed to become priests. Mervyn3.0 __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
George, I think Viviana has said enough about this topic, with whom I agree. For some reason, you have an issue with the Roman Catholic Church as it stands today, with allegations of sexism and racism. FYI, there are as many people coming into the Roman Catholic Church as there are leaving it, precisely because it is standing firm to its teachings. I am a Catholic. That is what matters. I count not on the colour of my skin, but on the colour of my faith. As far as Man and Woman and the Religious are concerned, there are physiological *and* psychological differences. A pastoral nun fills in where a parish priest cannot fulfil his task because of his gender. And vice versa. Lay people assist where a religious would be out of his or her depth. I think I have said enough on this topic. Cheers, Gabriel. --- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know if you realize it but comments like mental, physiological makeup are precisely the sexist comments that people who believe women are equal to men complain about. We are talking about roles in the church, not the physiological ability to have babies in which case there is a difference between men and women. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: Women priests
--- George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While it is true there are differences between men and women, the justification for barring women from being priests is not based on anything more than sexism. Regardless of what fanciful reasons are given, hiding behind the theological reasons is the belief that women are second-class and not smart enough or good enough to be priests. That's the unfortunate message of the Catholic Church. Regards, George Hi George, My opinion, which may be flawed, is that there are places and professions which are divided on basis of sex for practical reasons, and one cannot simply state that this is sexism. Funny though, more we go towards the equality of the sexes, the more there are women-only lounges, women-only common rooms, women-only gyms, women-only swimming-pools, etc. Also, in 99% (statistics not proven) of divorce cases, it appears that custody of the children go the woman. I wonder why. Is that because in the perceived equality, there are inequalities? On the other hand, is this reverse-sexism? Men-only clubs have been wiped out. Even in lawn-bowling clubs of Melbourne, in spite of there being a women-only lawns club to cater for her, a woman took a men's lawn-bowling club to court to allow her to participate, and she won. Not that I am a member of any such club, or a contra-feminist, but only to show that there seems to be an imbalance, taking this men/women thing too far. I do appreciate the stand of the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with considering women as inferior or not smart enough to priests. It has all to do with the mental, physiological makeup, or, to put it in other words, with the conceptual differences in ways men and women think and do (hence the courts' tendencies to give custodial rights of the children to the mother). If you are married, you probably already know that what a woman says is not exactly what a man understands, and vice-versa ;-)). Regards, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
