[Goanet] M F Hussain, saint or sinner
Dotor bab, I had asked yo the question because I was sure that you did not hear the songs..If you had really heard all the songs you would not come to the wrong conclusion...the meaning of Bodmass itself says a lot about Calvert. Fyi, there are 14 songs on this CD and of these 5 songs are exposing local politician..the same politician whom Calvert had introduced to the local people as his friend and got him elected...even after knowing the politican was a kallo kanvlo... There are no religious extremists involved in this. Calvert has himself admitted that the men who were sent to his house were sent by the politician and the rival panch. This is not the first time that songs on priest are sung but there have been instances in the past too, how come there was no violence that time. So called accusations are only from Calvert...n he has not provided any proof for the same. Edward Verdes - Original Message - From: anil desai Response: Since you asked this question, I heard one song on youtube. I heard two serious accusations made against the priest of Colva. You may or may not know but right now two Hindu godmen are under arrest in India and a third one is under investigation. You should be aware of paedophilia allegations against catholic priests and currently even Pope is accused of inadvertently sheltering a paedophile priest. Last week, the chief exorcist for the Vatican claimed that Satan had taken residence in the Vatican I believe all religions, including mine, have religious leaders who betray trust of their followers.It is for our respective religions to sort out their internal problems. My interest is not human frailties but breaking of law by violence or threats of violence by people with extremist opinions and particularly its exploitation by pseudo-secular political operatives. Threat of violence against Hussain was wrong and so was the violence in Colva. I condemn both in no uncertain terms. The pseudo-secularist political operators in India see bad in Hindu religion only. Marshal is one such operator. Anand and I have asked him several simple questions and he is clearly having difficulty answering them. Anil Desai
[Goanet] M F Hussain, saint or sinner
Edward wrote: Dotor Bab, Did you hear all the songs from CD 'Dogui Bodmass Produced by CALVERT? If so what are your views? Edward Verdes Response: Since you asked this question, I heard one song on youtube. I heard two serious accusations made against the priest of Colva. You may or may not know but right now two Hindu godmen are under arrest in India and a third one is under investigation. You should be aware of paedophilia allegations against catholic priests and currently even Pope is accused of inadvertently sheltering a paedophile priest. Last week, the chief exorcist for the Vatican claimed that Satan had taken residence in the Vatican I believe all religions, including mine, have religious leaders who betray trust of their followers.It is for our respective religions to sort out their internal problems. My interest is not human frailties but breaking of law by violence or threats of violence by people with extremist opinions and particularly its exploitation by pseudo-secular political operatives. Threat of violence against Hussain was wrong and so was the violence in Colva. I condemn both in no uncertain terms. The pseudo-secularist political operators in India see bad in Hindu religion only. Marshal is one such operator. Anand and I have asked him several simple questions and he is clearly having difficulty answering them. Anil Desai
[Goanet] M F Hussain, saint or sinner
Dr Anil Desai: 1. Do you really believe that the whole controversy about Tasleema Nasreen is about Hindu extremists using her case for political purposes( as you have put it)? 2. Can we read your views about the violence in Colva and the treatment meted out to Culvert and the actions of religious extremists with regard to Da Vinci Code movie? Response: 1.Yes, it is pretty much clear. That is why Narendra Modi, the epitome of human rights abuses and excesses, offered her refuge in Gujarat. Yet writers and artistes who do not toe the hindutva line are hounded at every opportunity. Check with Mallika Sarabhai, Ashish Ray, the student artists at MS University. If Tasleema who writes against muslim fundamentalism can be tolerated and feted, why not MFH? If this is not double standards, what is?Also refer to the following article. http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/bigidea/Our-con-artists/Article1-260498.aspx 2. Please refer to my post on the Colva violence: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2010-January/188251.html 3.So far as the movie Da Vince Code is again concerned, it is far from being a religious issue. The movie was shown abroad even in christian countries without any problem. It was also shown in many states in India, including Bombay where I live, without any problem. It was only in Goa and I believe Punjab where there were problems. These were instigated by polticians like Churchill Alemao trying to exploit religious sentiments for political gain. Democratic protests are perfectly acceptable and normal in civilised society while violence is definitely not. Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] M F Hussain- Saint or Sinner
Dr Anil Desai: The pseudo-secularist political operators in India see bad in Hindu religion only. Response: 1. I have several times stated very clearly that violence or hate is no answer to any disagreement or dispute. You are welcome to run through the Goanet archives where you will find upteen such postings. There are democratic and civil ways of protesting. 2. Now,can you point out even one post of mine speaking bad or negative of the Hindu religion or even hindu religious practices? 3. Do you believe that the hindu religion and hindutva ideology to be one and synonymous? 4. Do you subscribe to the hindutva ideology? 5.Could you kindly share with us what motivated you to post that insensitive and tactless article by Francois Gauntier at the height of the violence against christians in Orissa by hindutva extremists two years ago? 6. I may have perhaps missed seeing your post condemning the violence against christians in Orissa by extremist hindutvavadis. Would you be kind enough to provide the link to this post? 7. You mentioned in an earlier post that you felt offended by MHF's painting which was posted by someone on Goanet in the course of a debate. Are you similarly offended when these paintings are displayed on the websites of organisations like HJS/SS, VHP, Bajrang dal, etc? If yes, have you communicated your sense of hurt to them? Have you ever condemned such acts or do you feel they are justified? Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] M F Hussain saint or sinner
Anil Desai: About freedom of expression: It should be exercised with responsibility. Response: 1. Who decides the threshold - the artiste, civil society, the judiciary or extremist elements? 2. After the judiciary decides, can extremist elements continue to obstruct justice or order? 3. What is the time period which can be considered reasonable?-50 years, 100 years, 1000 years? What is to stop extremist elements from raking up a discussion item held today in various fora and accepted by civil society as normal and say that it hurts their religious sentiments and feelings some 10 years from now? Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] M F Hussain, saint or sinner
Marshall wrote: Samir One important point in this entire discussion on MF Hussain which everyone seems to be missing out is that the so called offensive paintings were created over 40 years ago. They were exhibited in art galleries, viewed by artists and art connoisseurs and did not raise anyone's hackles. However, in the 90's at the height of the hindutva movement,( remember, the Babri Masjid was demolished in December, 1992), the hindutvavadis tried to rake up anything and everything that could be used as a weapon to incite the public and create a communal divide which could be exploited for electoral gain. Therefore, the Hubli Idgah maidan issue, Haji Malang issue in Kalyan, Bababudangiri shrine, Chickmagalur, Karnataka and several others. At this point of time sometime in 1996 some hindutva organisations dredged out these two paintings out of some 1 paintings done by MFH and put them on public display accompanied of course with shrill communal rhetoric. The organisation which took a lead in this was the HJS / SS whose credentials are too well known and who were in the news recently for the bomb blasts in Margao and elsewhere which was targetted at hindus. So much for their sense of anger at the paintings!!! It is also interesting to note that when challenged in court, the Delhi HC and the Supreme Court held there was nothing objectionable in the paintings. Delhi High Court in May 2008 clearly stated the obvious: A painter has his own perspective of looking at things and it cannot be the basis of initiating criminal proceedings against him...In India, new puritanism is being carried out in the name of cultural purity and a host of ignorant people are vandalizing art and pushing us towards a pre-renaissance era. The Chief Justice of India K.G.Balakrishan had the best response to the question when, while upholding the Delhi HC decision, he said: ?There are so many such subjects, photographs and publications. Will you file cases against all of them? It (Husain?s work) is art. If you don?t want to see it, then don?t see it. There are so many such art forms in the (Hindu) temple structures.? The main point to note also is that these paintings were not in public places and were in private collections, rarely exhibited and that too in rarefied exhibitions attended by people who by no stretch of imagination would have been offended by them, at exclusive galleries. All of them were done many, many years back. Those who claimed to be hurt by these paintings were the ones who went about putting these paintings in the public domain. MFH is being made a scapegoat because he is a muslim. He is being used as a pawn in the larger battle being fought by communal forces who wish to secure political power. Had he been a hindu, possibly there would have been a few protests and the matter would have died down a la Subodh Kerkar affaire. It is also a matter for all people to think whether violence or threats of violence is acceptable in any protest or disagreement. In the Taslima issue too, Taslima is a merely a pawn in the larger battle for votes.The hindutva lobbly does not love her but is using her to hurt the muslims since some of her writings raise the hackles of fundamentalist muslims. West Bengal has a large muslim population, and in order not to lose their votes, the Left front as well as the 'secular' parties like the Congress or TC are pandering to the muslim extremists. Annd so the chain goes on. There is a valid point in the argument that the state and the secular lobby have not been equally fair and firm with muslim extremists whether in the Shah Bano affair, or the Salman Rushdie matter or the Taslima issue. So where do we go from here? Continue this game of brinkmanship or set up standards for others to follow? All in all, hindutva is giving hinduism a bad name. Hinduism has through the ages welcomed and sheltered all religions. Nowhere in the world will one see the portraits of all types of gods and deities displayed, and treated with equal respect, like I have seen in roadside dhabbas, sugarcane juice stalls, transport buses, shops, offices in India. I lived in Gurgaon for two years and had a Punjabi Hindu as my neighbour. I was surprised to see a painting of the Last Supper prominently displayed on the wall of her living room. The lady explained to me that this was a gift to her husband, an army officer, and they revered it knowing the full story and background. Another Punjabi Hindu neighbour to whom I used to send my children for tutions in Hindi, requested me obtain a Bible in large font size for her aged father-in-law as he was very happy and keen on reading stories from the bible.These are the kind of people who practice the essense of hinduism and not those protesting against MFH. Response: Very good write up. 2 questions: 1. Do you really believe that the whole controversy about Tasleema Nasreen is about Hindu extremists using her case for political purposes( as you have put it)?
Re: [Goanet] M F Hussain, saint or sinner
Dotor Bab, Did you hear all the songs from CD 'Dogui Bodmass Produced by CALVERT? If so what are your views? Edward Verdes - Original Message - From: anil desai 2. Can we read your views about the violence in Colva and the treatment meted out to Culvert and the actions of religious extremists with regard to Da Vinci Code movie? Anil Desai --
[Goanet] M F Hussain: saint or sinner
Samir wrote: I find it very glaring that while everyone rushes to Hussein's defense, not one of the so-called secular fighters came in defense of Tasleema when she was hounded. REsponse: Samir, This included Marshall whose fingers must have gone numb when he tried to write something insupport of Tasleema. Even now, he believes the whole problem with the Tasleema issue is that Hindu extremists trying to use her for political purposes. Where were these pseudo-secularists when Culvert needed support in Colva? Anil Desai
[Goanet] M F Hussain : saint or sinner?
I was touched with the following paragraph from Marshall's post: All in all, hindutva is giving Hinduism a bad name. Hinduism has through the ages welcomed and sheltered all religions. Nowhere in the world will one see the portraits of all types of gods and deities displayed, and treated with equal respect, like I have seen in roadside dhabbas, sugarcane juice stalls, transport buses, shops, offices in India. I was frequent visitor to Gurgaon for two years and had a Punjabi Hindu as my neighbor. I was surprised to see a painting of the Last Supper prominently displayed on the wall of their living room. The lady explained to me that this was a gift to her husband, an army officer, and they revered it knowing the full story and background. Another Punjabi Hindu neighbor to whom I used to send my children for tuitions in Hindi, requested me to obtain a Bible in large font size for her aged father-in-law as he was very happy and keen on reading stories from the bible. These are the kind of people who practice the essence of Hinduism and not those protesting against MFH. Does Marshall have reverential pictures of Hindu gods and goddesses in his house? Best wishes Dr U. G. Barad
[Goanet] M F Hussain Saint or sinner
Marshall wrote: I must congratulate Sandeep Heble for this article which is so well written. Regards, Marshall Response: I agree but would Sandeep not get more credibility if he wrote similar articles on the activities of religious extremists in the cases of Dogui Bodmas in his backyard and Tasleema Nasreen? Or is there no tradition amongst Indian pseudo secularists of being critical towards non-hindu extremists? Anil Desai
[Goanet] M F Hussain Saint or sinner?
Anil Desai writes: Or is there no tradition amongst Indian pseudo secularists of being critical towards non-hindu extremists? Good point. Further, Sandeep's argument saying Hussein painted Hindu Goddesses nude because of the tradition in the Hindu religion, while he didnt do the equivalent because of lack of tradition in Islam is in direct contradiction to the argument that his drawings are creative. Creativity being an unfettered thing is completed out of tune with maintaining traditions. The essence of creativity is breaking away from traditions. In other words, the above is just a cop-out argument of Hussein's. It is very likely that if he imagines Hindu Goddesses nude, he would be imagining the Muslim godddesses or equivalent nude too, and if he is true to himself, he should draw those too. Just shows the hypocrisy of the man, and also of his defenders. regards, Samir
Re: [Goanet] M F Hussain Saint or sinner?
Accusing an artist of hypocrisy for creating something based on his/her own likes and dislikes is pointless and silly. The essence of any art is artistic freedom. An artist is free to create anything he fancies or fantasizes about. Nobody can tell him what to create and what not to create. All one can do is not buy his art. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 3/12/10, Samir Kelekar samir_kele...@yahoo.com wrote: Good point. Further, Sandeep's argument saying Hussein painted Hindu Goddesses nude because of the tradition in the Hindu religion, while he didnt do the equivalent because of lack of tradition in Islam is in direct contradiction to the argument that his drawings are creative. Creativity being an unfettered thing is completed out of tune with maintaining traditions. The essence of creativity is breaking away from traditions. In other words, the above is just a cop-out argument of Hussein's. It is very likely that if he imagines Hindu Goddesses nude, he would be imagining the Muslim godddesses or equivalent nude too, and if he is true to himself, he should draw those too. Just shows the hypocrisy of the man, and also of his defenders. regards, Samir
[Goanet] M F Hussain : saint or sinner?
Sandeep article on M F Hussain is a height of hypocrisy. While Sandeep calls the saga of Hussain a cruel reflection of our times and our society’s growing Intolerance. Sandeep has no comment on what Hussain's obligation to his own religion is. Sandeep calls opposition to Hussain's painting as a sign of barbarism, however, he has no hassle in justifying the barbarism in say Islam where he casually attributes it to the fact that it is part of the Muslim religion, or it is part of their tradition. Any thinking person -- be it Sandeep or Hussain or Marshall --- ought to ask the fundamental question --- if I can do such paintings of the Hindu Gods or Goddesses, why cant I do it in my own religion ? And if I can't do it, what is the reason ? Can one justify the barbaric status of one religion saying it is tradition, while at the same time talk about freedom of speech when another religion is concerned ? These double standards are very obvious to any neutral observer. One needs to see how these so called defenders of secularism go running with their tail between their legs when Tasleema Nasreen is attacked by the Muslims. For heaven's sake, dont call yourself secular at least. You are disgracing that good word. Freedom of expression is not a right that applies only selectively or as per convenience. There is a limit to how much of a tunnel vision one can have. Yes, the protestors are taking Hinduism to dark ages; if succesful, Hinduism will then become like Islam which is still in the dark ages, and then presumably Sandeep and Marshall will have no problems with it! regards, Samir
[Goanet] M F Hussain saint or sinner
Marshall wrote: Freedom of Speech or expression is not absolute. It is restricted and contained by the conditions around us. That is why Tendulkar and Gavaskar cannot speak freely on certain issues in Bombay. That is why Karan Johar, Amitabh Bachhan, Shah Rukh Khan and other artistes have to obtain 'clearances' even after receiving the Censor's certificate before their films can be shown. Response: Yet again, Marshall shows his true colours.In his philosophical arguments, only example he cas find is that of Shivsena and MNS. Why does he find it so difficult to condemn the violence unleashed against Culvert in Colva or the treatment meted out to Tasleema Nasreen. Is he himself a religious extremist, a wolfe in sheep's clothing? About freedom of expression: It should be exercised with responsibility. Anil Desai
Re: [Goanet] M F Hussain Saint or sinner
I must congratulate anil desai for his post which is so well written. It is possible that both Sandeep and Marshall will now decide to do the needful. If they do not, they'd be NO different from the other bigots who might be reading this. jc == [1] Marshall Mendonza wrote: I must congratulate Sandeep Heble for this article which is so well written. [2] anil desai anild...@gmail.com wrote: Response: I agree but would Sandeep not get more credibility if he wrote similar articles on the activities of religious extremists in the cases of Dogui Bodmas in his backyard and Tasleema Nasreen? Or is there no tradition amongst Indian pseudo secularists of being critical towards non-hindu extremists?
[Goanet] M F Hussain : saint or sinner?
Samir One important point in this entire discussion on MF Hussain which everyone seems to be missing out is that the so called offensive paintings were created over 40 years ago. They were exhibited in art galleries, viewed by artists and art connoisseurs and did not raise anyone's hackles. However, in the 90's at the height of the hindutva movement,( remember, the Babri Masjid was demolished in December, 1992), the hindutvavadis tried to rake up anything and everything that could be used as a weapon to incite the public and create a communal divide which could be exploited for electoral gain. Therefore, the Hubli Idgah maidan issue, Haji Malang issue in Kalyan, Bababudangiri shrine, Chickmagalur, Karnataka and several others. At this point of time sometime in 1996 some hindutva organisations dredged out these two paintings out of some 1 paintings done by MFH and put them on public display accompanied of course with shrill communal rhetoric. The organisation which took a lead in this was the HJS / SS whose credentials are too well known and who were in the news recently for the bomb blasts in Margao and elsewhere which was targetted at hindus. So much for their sense of anger at the paintings!!! It is also interesting to note that when challenged in court, the Delhi HC and the Supreme Court held there was nothing objectionable in the paintings. Delhi High Court in May 2008 clearly stated the obvious: A painter has his own perspective of looking at things and it cannot be the basis of initiating criminal proceedings against him...In India, new puritanism is being carried out in the name of cultural purity and a host of ignorant people are vandalizing art and pushing us towards a pre-renaissance era. The Chief Justice of India K.G.Balakrishan had the best response to the question when, while upholding the Delhi HC decision, he said: “There are so many such subjects, photographs and publications. Will you file cases against all of them? It (Husain’s work) is art. If you don’t want to see it, then don’t see it. There are so many such art forms in the (Hindu) temple structures.” The main point to note also is that these paintings were not in public places and were in private collections, rarely exhibited and that too in rarefied exhibitions attended by people who by no stretch of imagination would have been offended by them, at exclusive galleries. All of them were done many, many years back. Those who claimed to be hurt by these paintings were the ones who went about putting these paintings in the public domain. MFH is being made a scapegoat because he is a muslim. He is being used as a pawn in the larger battle being fought by communal forces who wish to secure political power. Had he been a hindu, possibly there would have been a few protests and the matter would have died down a la Subodh Kerkar affaire. It is also a matter for all people to think whether violence or threats of violence is acceptable in any protest or disagreement. In the Taslima issue too, Taslima is a merely a pawn in the larger battle for votes.The hindutva lobbly does not love her but is using her to hurt the muslims since some of her writings raise the hackles of fundamentalist muslims. West Bengal has a large muslim population, and in order not to lose their votes, the Left front as well as the 'secular' parties like the Congress or TC are pandering to the muslim extremists. Annd so the chain goes on. There is a valid point in the argument that the state and the secular lobby have not been equally fair and firm with muslim extremists whether in the Shah Bano affair, or the Salman Rushdie matter or the Taslima issue. So where do we go from here? Continue this game of brinkmanship or set up standards for others to follow? All in all, hindutva is giving hinduism a bad name. Hinduism has through the ages welcomed and sheltered all religions. Nowhere in the world will one see the portraits of all types of gods and deities displayed, and treated with equal respect, like I have seen in roadside dhabbas, sugarcane juice stalls, transport buses, shops, offices in India. I lived in Gurgaon for two years and had a Punjabi Hindu as my neighbour. I was surprised to see a painting of the Last Supper prominently displayed on the wall of her living room. The lady explained to me that this was a gift to her husband, an army officer, and they revered it knowing the full story and background. Another Punjabi Hindu neighbour to whom I used to send my children for tutions in Hindi, requested me obtain a Bible in large font size for her aged father-in-law as he was very happy and keen on reading stories from the bible.These are the kind of people who practice the essense of hinduism and not those protesting against MFH. Regards, Marshall
