[Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- This note is addressed to Selma, with the kindest consideration to Cornel DaCosta. Dear Selma, Perhaps in your defence you have already said more than you need to have said. Language, is very interesting in that it tends to deceive, particularly in modernity where a word takes on even further shades of meaning (or is given newer shades) in its connotation or denotation. So as you were compelled to find out the true nature of the word and the construct of "gated-community" -- it does not need to have a gate. The idea or physical nature of a gate now also includes electronic and other virtual devices, including the ubiquitous hidden cameras, sensors and electronic (laser) trip wires. But opinions will vary. Its like the oft quoted Bill Clinton denial, or a truism, as some saw it, with regards Lewinsky -- the kind of phrasing that is common in Christian climates. Also, very often people react rightly or wrongly to all the other supporting aspects of an utterance, to include posturing, nature of the delivery, diction and even "but this is what she / he meant." But above all, it should be how we regard or proclaim truth. So there not being any visible manifestation of a gate did not mean that your point was null and void or a lie (which in the first place should never be a positional marker in such discussions). The fact that people in general are averse to the idea of living in a gated-community, suggests seeing things and to soem degree correctly as a them versus us mindset, although the nature of many such communities has drastically changed over the past 15-20 years. Besides that, I would not recommend it to anyone to get so deep into such matters unless there is a strong reason to pick such bones. My humble opinon is that Dr. DaCosta should not have use the word, liar. But only the two of you will have realized where the falling out began. Edward DeSilva steered the discussion in a way that must have made people think which elicited some interesting responses. Gabe Menezes once again showed, how one may yet treat ones fellowman* (*I often tend to steer into the archaic, using humanist aphorisms). You remind me of a middle ranking martial artist (say 4th-5th Dan)-- once people know that, they all wish to fight you -- even if it means doing so at the bazaar. But one must also be concerned about what one says. When I was younger, having discovered, the ability to see various angles to a statement -- I would make people miserable with pungent questions. Fortunately for me -- as in my humanity, this period of being laissez-faire was short lived. We are all works in progress. As we get older, we hopefully turn into works of art. This topic touches many areas of thought including all those that fall under consciousness. It is the kind of topic ripe for empirical research as in modes of existential understanding -- something that is easily said than done. What I fear is that, such skirmishes dissuade rather than invite women to participate on Goanet. Most men -- fathers, spouses and kin cannot take (their) women going through such dialogical engagements. But the responsibility and the benefits gained (nothing is entirely lost -- or at least someone else learns) through such encounters should still be considered. Venantius J Pinto
[Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:43:38 -0400 From: "Bosco D'Mello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Selma, Selma, Selma...how long have you been a Goan cyber trekkiekitem go..when are you going to realise that the ek-a-damn-hicks, the Pee-hedge-dee wannabees, the Em-Bee-Eh poster boyz and the dotors are always right..they are always right when they have the last word..and they must have the last word.always...and we must give it to them..that is the only way they will allow for themselves to look silly!!! How else can the rest of us get a good laugh at them?? > Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:29:05 -0400 From: "Venantius Pinto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Perhaps in your defence you have already said more than you need to have said. > So as you were compelled to find out the true nature of the word and the construct of "gated-community" -- it does not need to have a gate. The idea or physical nature of a gate now also includes electronic and other virtual devices, including the ubiquitous hidden cameras, sensors and electronic (laser) trip wires. But opinions will vary. > Mario adds: > Selma, I was sorry to see that the point you started out to make about self-contained "communities are an experiment in security and self-sufficiency," for more and more of the middle-class, and "All of middle-class morality and aspirations are based on this single premise that order can be created out of chaos.", unfortunately got blown away in the real gale you were expecting when you first wrote your essay. > Cornel, my advice to you is, "STOP DIGGING. Your hole is already deep enough":-)) > Bosco has, as usual, confused sarcasm with wisdom, whereas, as usual, Venantius has wisely tried to pour oil on this unnecessarily contentious thread. > All I know is that Selma lives in a pretty nice, airy, modern, safe community [even apparently from gales:-))], specifically designed as a comprehensive, almost self-contained community. I have no idea whether it has any overt security arrangements intended to keep out the riff ra.., um, undesirable elements. > While this topic has generated more heat than light, shown below is what Wikipedia describes a gated community as, and this conforms with what we, in the US, typically understand a gated community to be. > The critical criterion is "controlled access", sometimes with electronically controlled entrances that use pass-codes, sometimes with an actual security staff. > Other countries may have different ideas about what a gated community may be. > "In its modern form, a gated community is a form of residential community containing controlled entrances for pedestrians, bicycles, and automobiles, and sometimes characterised by a closed perimeter of walls and fences. Gated communities usually consist of small residential streets and include various amenities. For smaller communities this may be only a park or other common area. For larger communities, it may be possible for residents to stay within the community for most day-to-day activities." > Q.E.D. >
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- On Mon, 6/23/08, CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Third, in the UK, the middle classes definitely do not > "huddle" together. They can afford to stay in > more > affluent spaced-out areas and particularly well away > from council house type of working class areas. The > middle classes, and especially those financially well > off, progressively move to the more salubrious areas > that are determined often by space that money buys, > and generally not gates, to keep away the riff raff. Cornel, The personal bile of your post knocked the wind out of my sails but now that I've recovered, I have to seriously contest your post for its utter lack of facts. As usual, google will usually provide one with facts, where posters find it appropriate to make up their own. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20070203/ai_n17204423 Among other things, the opening salvo of this article has this to say: "There are now more than 1,000 gated communities in England. More than 100,000 people live in them" I take it your driving around London is a bit limited then, since you've missed everyone of these 1,000 gated communities and your friend circle must be even less, if you've never come across anyone of those 100,000 people who reportedly live in them. So contrary to what you say, it seems the middle-class in London does "huddle". The moving to the more "salubrious" locations, as you put it, has a price tag of upwards of UKpound 500,000 and quite honestly do you call those people, "middle-class" in the UK? selma
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
Selma I am reluctant to join in this discussion thread, as it is getting rather personal! However I wish to make 2 points about the article "Welcome to Gated Britain". 1. I quote from it "There are now more than 1,000 gated communities in England. More than 100,000 people live in them, predominantly in London and the south-east - but increasingly right across the country." London is not England, it is the capital of England, folk from abroad often tend to get the two muddled up, and as the article says, while these gated properties are predominent in the *south-east and London*, they are also beginning to crop up elsewhere i.e. not just London. So your comment below is incorrect: >I take it your driving around London is a bit limited then, since you've missed everyone of these 1,000 gated communities and your> >friend circle must be even less, if you've never come across anyone of those 100,000 people who reportedly live in them.> Driving around London only, will not help your search for gated communities if that is your leisure activity. You would need to drive around the whole of England to look for the 1,000 such communities mentioned, and not just London. Incidentally, the article actually talks about the one visited in Aldlerly Edge in Cheshire which is a long way from London, and is in Footballer Land where the residents earn so much, they live in constant fear of being robbed! Well what do they expect!! 2. The 2006 census (the most recent one) showed the population of England to be 50,762,900 (and the whole of the UK at 60,857,300). The article "Welcome to Gated Britain" states that 100,000 live in such communities. This is a mere drop in the ocean of the vastness of the total population, dont you agree? I personally think that where gated communities exist in any country, they are an urban feature, rather than a rural one. I go to London at least once a month and I know of one such property in Fulham, but then I go there mainly to get my fix of good Indian food which I am unable to get where I live! :-) On which irrevelant pointif anyone is interested Tayyabs in Fieldgate Street, Whitechapel is an excellent BYO restaurant, great food and reasonable prices. Luisa
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- Hi Selma I have just noted, a bit late, your post below and therefore owe you a reply. I will try to be brief in the little time I have right now. 1 This discussion began with you telling some 9000 Goanetters that you lived in a "gated community" in London. Believe you me, this would be a major achievement by any London standard! There was no bile involved in me whatsoever but much concern that thousands of Goanetters, especially in Goa/India with some awareness of really expensive gated communities, and some in Delhi charging £5000 a month in rent, and new ones sprouting in India, should not be thoroughly misled by your claim that was entirely wrong intentionally or unintentionally. 2. Having noted that what you said was blatantly untrue, I said so, strictly in the spirit and context of your public forum post. 3. Despite the reasons provided by me, you insisted on your original claim re your gated community with unsustainable further claims to support your stance. 4. On reflection, please let us Goanetters know if you now accept that you were seriously mistaken about your gated community or if you still insist that you live in one. 5. Following your answer, we can definitely proceed further on other aspects of your claims about gated communities in the UK. I too have had a chance to read Google and other articles about gated communities in the UK and none indicate much enthusiasm for the relatively few that exist. 6. By way of info, in the 1930s or so, in Oxford, a number of walls had been built by the middle classes to separate themselves from the working class estates. These were referred to as the Cutteslowe Walls and a fascinating book about this fact may still be in print. Most certainly visitors often come to the site as they do the Berlin Wall site in Germany. The lesser known but nevertheless notorious Cuttoslowe Walls were eventually demolished after much acrimony, dispute and bitterness. But most importantly, it led to a general reluctance in the UK to separate/segregate people with gated communities (however wealthy some private people may be), and local authorities (municipalities) would be hard- pushed to permit the odd one. Even Downing Street was open to the public and I have taken photographs of friends and relatives at that famous door at No 10. This came to an end with the worsening crises in Ireland and when Irish terrorism reached London on a large scale. But of course, gated communities can be found rather a lot in parts of the USA, Columbia, Brazil and South Africa etc invariably for security/safety reasons. If I had to live in San Paulo or Rio (with among the highest murder rates in the world), for six months on an assignment, I would be stupid not to live in an expensive gated community, but thankfully, the UK is a long long way from such a situation and from the false impression you were naively providing to so many Goanetters, wittingly or unwittingly. Cornel --- Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The personal bile of your post knocked the wind out > of my sails but now that I've recovered, I have to > seriously contest your post for its utter lack of > facts. As usual, google will usually provide one > with facts, where posters find it appropriate to > make up their own.
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- 2008/6/27 CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi Selma > I have just noted, a bit late, your post below and > therefore owe you a reply. I will try to be brief in > the little time I have right now. > > 1 This discussion began with you telling some 9000 > Goanetters that you lived in a "gated community" in > London. Believe you me, this would be a major > achievement by any London standard! There was no bile > involved in me whatsoever but much concern that > thousands of Goanetters, especially in Goa/India with > some awareness of really expensive gated communities, > and some in Delhi charging £5000 a month in rent, and > new ones sprouting in India, should not be thoroughly > misled by your claim that was entirely wrong > intentionally or unintentionally. > > 2. Having noted that what you said was blatantly > untrue, I said so, strictly in the spirit and context > of your public forum post. RESPONSE: My Dear Cornel, It appears, that it could true that Selma, mistakenly thought that she was indeed living in a gated property. Your statement that she deliberately/blatantly tried to deceive Goanet members, to show that she was somewhat elite, needs more than tempering from your side. I believe, that it was not the fact that you simply tried to correct her but the manner in which you did so. Please do take in, introspection of what you had written; to the rest of us you were bringing her down to Earth and in effect castigating her for saying she lived in a gated property. What Selma stated is correct, you should have corrected her on a one to one basis, even though her pronouncement was on Goanet. There are after all certain protocols to follow, your apologies notwithstanding, you go on to defend your stance and further inform Selma that she has 'blatantly' i.e. intentionally misled. This after having visited her and having been entertained? You may be sublime, in all you do but seriously I think you need to more than take other People's feelings into proper perspectiveelse you will end up being like our resident 'know it all' with 'never a humble opinion', which as all Goanetters know is twaddle. The bottom line is you have added insult to injury, you apologised, then you go on to state that Selma blatantly (i.e. with intent) went out to deceive us. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- --- On Fri, 6/27/08, CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 3. Despite the reasons provided by me, you insisted on > your original claim re your gated community with > unsustainable further claims to support your stance. --- Dear Dr Cornel, In your hurry to castigate me and save 9000 members from being deceived, you didn't even consider that maybe you could potentially wrong as well. Gated communities are found all the way from Rodeo drive to the marsh-lands of Chennai all in varying degrees and shades of prosperity. If the standards of mine did not meet with your expectations of what a gated community should be that is upto debate. Just to reconfirm my premise I asked the office about the absence of a gate at the entrance and they said they don't need one, the entire estate is under 24 hour CCTV surveillance, the entrance to each building is further security locked accessible only by an electronic key-card and any unauthorized vehicle on the premises is immediately clamped and towed away. In addition it meets all the criteria of a gated community, a large garden-space, with another equally large one which will be built subsequently. It has its own streets and parking area, it's own community center and its own gym. There might even be plans for shops, although this is something I've heard from a third-party and not the office. What you saw is just 1/5 of the project that is completed. The development is not even half-way done. The concept of a gated community more than anything else are shared spaces that form the community within. That is exactly what the premise of my original post was, that the concept of urban residential dwellings is changing and is doing so to cater to the needs of a modern society. This is my last post on this subject because frankly I've never been defined by where I live, what my credential are, what I wear or what I look like. I do however prefer to be defined by my integrity and honesty and since it was this that is under attack I take great umbrage at your post. selma
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- Gated communities are found all the way from Rodeo drive to the marsh-lands of Chennai all in varying degrees and shades of prosperity. Selma, Selma, Selma...how long have you been a Goan cyber trekkiekitem go..when are you going to realise that the ek-a-damn-hicks, the Pee-hedge-dee wannabees, the Em-Bee-Eh poster boyz and the dotors are always right..they are always right when they have the last word..and they must have the last word.always...and we must give it to them..that is the only way they will allow for themselves to look silly!!! How else can the rest of us get a good laugh at them?? I can assure you one of those described above are soon going to challenge you that there are no marsh-lands in Chennai!! And prosperity with a shade??? Get real!!! All this posturingwhile the land called Goa...is left to the mercenaries..Our fellow grumpy Goanetters have close to no interest in Goait is very evident in their posts hereall that is important is for them to sound like they have something important to say here on Goanetthey are after all in their sunset years.and wanting to sound important among Goans is the last stripe missing on their lapels. I checked out your digs onlinethey look swell.infact one pix looked like Kamat KinaraI'll vouch my opinion - it is a gated community, but then again, maybe St George has a different intepretation of gated community as compared to St Andrew. Who was the victor and who the vanquished is for another day. Dont be surprised if the ek-a-damn-hicks and the Em-Bee-Eh poster boyz twice my age come for meyou know what I'll be doing, right?? - b T.O - presently in the wild throes of Pride Week!!!
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- This note is addressed to Selma, with the kindest consideration to Cornel DaCosta. Dear Selma, Perhaps in your defence you have already said more than you need. Language, is very interesting in that it tends to deceive, particularly in modernity where a word takes on even further shades of meaning (or is given newer shades) in its connotation or denotation. So as you were compelled to find out the true nature of the word and the construct of "gated-community" -- it does not need to have a gate. The idea or physical nature of a gate now also includes electronic and other virtual devices, including the ubiquitous hidden cameras, sensors and electronic (laser) trip wires. But opinions will vary. Its like the oft quoted Bill Clinton denial, or as a truism, as some may put it, with regards Lewinsky -- the kind of phrasing that is common in Christian climates. Also, very often people react rightly or wrongly to all the other supporting aspects of an utterance, to include posturing, nature of the delivery, diction and even "but this is what she / he meant." But above all, should be how we regard or proclaim truth. So there being no visible accroutment of a gate community meant that your point was null and void or a lie (which in the first place should never be a positional marker in such discussions), besides the fact that people in general are averse to the idea of living in a gated-community. It suggests a them versus us mindset, although the nature of such communities has drastically changed over the past 15-20 years. I would not recommend it to anyone to get so deep into such matters unless there is a strong reason to pick such bones. My humble opinon is that Dr. DaCosta should not have called you a liar. But only the two of you will have realized where the falling out began. Edward DeSilva steered the discussion in a way that must have made people think which elicited some interesting responses. Gabe Menezes once again showed, how one may yet treat ones fellowman* (*I often tend to steer into the archaic, using humanist aphorisms). You remind me of a middle ranking martial artist (say 4th-5th Dan)-- once people know that, they all want to fight you even at the bazaar. But one must also be concerned about what one says. When I was younger, having discovered, the ability to see various angles to a statement -- I would make people miserable with pungent questions. Fortunately for me -- as in my humanity, this period of being laissez-faire was short lived. We are all works in progress. As we get older, we hopefully turn into works of art. This topic touches many areas of thought including all those that fall under consciousness. It is the kind of topic ripe for empirical research as in modes of existential understanding -- something that is easily said than done. What I fear is that, such skirmishes dissuade rather than invite women to participate on Goanet. Most men -- fathers, spouses and kin cannot take (their) women going through such dialogical engagements. But the responsibility and the benefits gained (nothing is entirely lost -- or at least someone else learns) through such encounters should still be considered. Venantius J Pinto
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- This is my last post on this subject because frankly I've never been defined by where I live, what my credential are, what I wear or what I look like. I do however >prefer to be defined by my integrity and honesty and since it was this that is under attack I take great umbrage at your post. selma Dearest Selma, I have never wanted to intervene on this topic of 'gated communities' raging on the net as we have ample of them already existing and more sophisticated ones coming up everywhere and anywhere. In Moira itself, a really snoozy, quiet village, one such is planned each unit with its own swiming pool etc., costing a bomb at 2.25 crores. This project will probably have the main gate which will go in the Guinness Book of World Records :-)), if Moidekars come to term with such a mega development. But can something like this be stopped at all? if all and sundry rules and regulations are observed?? Don't we live in a democracy? Besides, who decides who will settle down where and how and in what style?? One gated community complex that I know of is the Landscape City in Porvorim where my brother used to stay. It has a big gate with a security, lots of parking space, some open space (a little more of it would be good), its own bore-well, lots of shops and a supermarket, and is made upof atleat 50 or more apartments. There is the 'Sapna Gardens' just next door next to Angels Resort which is again a gated complex. For that matter every house is a gated complex , at least mine has a gate which does not lock :-)) As you have maintained, every one is looking for (1) security and (2) convenience. And people are tired of running like blue - a**e flies trying to put things together and/or manage in these 'dog eat dog' times. And I hardly think that whether a gate is installed (in a bigger or a smaller dimention) or not, should be the topic of a debate, rather it should be about the concept of a gated community. We were told (during our younger days) that in the U.K., life was so fast that one might not have seen, met, talked to the next door neighbour in an apartment building in along time. (used to wonder how this could be, especially with our Goan life-style context). But this is happening here in Goa itself now-a-days. For example, Celina Jaitley, the famous model/actress is supposed to be my, sort of next-door-neighbour ( as the entire ward is considered as an apartment building), and/or there are many foreigners who have bought houses in our ward. But I am yet to see what they look like (atleast in person as far as Ms. Jaitley is concerned). But above all, whether we are Sudra or Chardi or whatever, whether we are Christians, Catholics, Hindus, Muslims or whatever, we need to be like you have defined above. And for that reason alone,IS A L U T E Y O U. And finally to put to rest this discussion/debate over the various castes bugging us Goans and keeping us from being of one mind and soul for GOA, one prominent citizen of Goa asked me once if I was not a Bamon. I asked him why he was asking. His response was "you talk like a bamon". And he was quite taken aback with my response. 'To the best of my knowledge and belief, never from my parents, but by inference from others, I am supposed to be the decendant of a Sudra", I told him . "But that does not bother me", I said, "because I sport a mind not only of the sudra, but also of the chardo, the bamon et al put together". Cheer up floriano goasuraj - Original Message - From: "Carvalho" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation --- On Fri, 6/27/08, CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 3. Despite the reasons provided by me, you insisted on your original claim re your gated community with unsustainable further claims to support your stance. --- Dear Dr Cornel, In your hurry to castigate me and save 9000 members from being deceived, you didn't even consider that maybe you could potentially wrong as well. Gated communities are found all the way from Rodeo drive to the marsh-lands of Chennai all in varying degrees and shades of prosperity. If the standards of mine did not meet with your expectations of
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
Hi Venantius I have not had a chance to get on to Goanet recently because of other commitments. However, please let me know when I have ever referred to anyone on Goanet as a "LIAR". If unable to do so, I am sure you will be inclined to retract your statement below as totally incorrect and uninformed. Regards Cornel DaCosta --- Venantius Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote My humble opinon > is that Dr. DaCosta > should not have use the word, liar.
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
Hi Selma I regret I have been away from Goanet posts for a few days watching a lot of sport and am only just catching up. If you insist that your residence is a "gated community" without sight of a gate or fence to stop anyone from entering the premises, that is your prerogative. You are welcome to believe and state what you like. Equally then, you have to give credence to my informed view, without you getting so emotional, that yours is not a gated community--the rather simple point I was making in initiating a debate. By way of an illustration, accommodation in a proper gated community in Bangalore and Delhi that I have seen for returning people re the current reverse brain drain, costs around £5000 or Rs 400,000 a month and I reckon someone would be paying at least £15,000 a month even if miles from central London for something similar. I will also accept it if you insist that you are indeed paying this kind of money (for a conventionally understood gated community and of the kind I have also seen in Rio and Chennai but am unaware of the cost), and perhaps £30,000 a month for your non-visible gated community accommodation bristling with electronic gadgetry! I am sure thousands of Goanetters will be suitably impressed too if you allow yourself to provide a clue as to how much your "gated community" accommodation may be costing you. Further, it is a fact that, your block of flats are not being rented or sold as part of a "gated community" otherwise, their cost would have been infinitely greater than they are priced on the market currently. Please check this out as the info may yet be there with the estate agents, assuming that the flats are not yet sold in the current depressed housing market. As the premises are not on any printed map because they are very new, I had to initially find out their location from estate agents who had the flats for sale on line. So, in sum, I put it to you that: a)you were unable to enter a simple debate on the idea of a "gated community" initiated by you and to which I responded entirely and strictly in terms of your tenor, and the context and content you supplied--nothing more and nothing less. b) at one point, you claimed that I must have missed the gate! Do check this point as a fact. In other words you initially took the line that there was indeed a visible gate that I had somehow missed as well as a substantial fence around, that I had also somehow missed! c) when you realised that you were getting yourself into a deep hole I suggest that, you switched to the idea of an electronic "gated community". Do you think that the sellers/renters would not have emphasised this point strongly in their sales literature if this were true? d) At absolutely no point have I referred to you as a "liar" for you to 'loudly' proclaim that you are not a liar. This is something that I found unexpectedly odd. Let me end by saying that, I really get quite tired of some Goans in the West, trying to impress fellow Goans, particularly in Goa/India with exaggerated spoken and written claims about rosy living conditions here. In my book, this is something terribly wrong to do. Providing an accurate picture is one thing but not something that may be quite untrue and grossly exaggerated. Therefore, surely if you so wish, the proveable fact of your monthly rent, for your electronically controlled, "gated community" accommodation, MINUS any physical signs of gates, should hopefully put an end to this totally unexpectedly contentious issue. Cornel PS I also note that in the info you chose to provide and supposedly from the owners, there suddenly is absolutely nothing there about a gated community with an electronic fence. --- Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In your hurry to castigate me and save 9000 members > from being deceived, you didn't even consider that > maybe you could potentially wrong as well. Gated > communities are found all the way from Rodeo drive > to the marsh-lands of Chennai all in varying degrees > and shades of prosperity. If the standards of mine > did not meet with your expectations of what a gated > community should be that is upto debate.
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > By way of an illustration, accommodation in a proper > gated community in Bangalore and Delhi that I have > seen for returning people re the current reverse brain > drain, costs around £5000 or Rs 400,000 a month --- Cornel, For some odd reason I had figured you to be an honorable man. Ofcourse that was before I had any dealings with you. Now, that I have had the misfortune of meeting you, my opinion has been quite revised. To begin with, here is a quote that proves you know nothing about India but are happy to make your own facts. Even with great economic strides made in India, the percentage of people who can afford a rent of Rs400,000 per month would be minuscule. So I did a random search of rents in gated communities in India, Bangalore to be precise. http://www.alloexpat.com/india_expat_forum/fully-furnished-3-bdr-sarjapur-bangalore-gated-community-t5492.html The link above proves that it is Rs40,000 per month which is about what a middle-class person in Bangalore would be able to afford. If one were to rent a gated-community in Goa, I doubt the rent would be above Rs20,000 per month. CORNEL WRITES I will also accept it if you insist that you > are indeed paying this kind of money (for a > conventionally understood gated community and of the > kind I have also seen in Rio and Chennai but am > unaware of the cost), - I happened to have mentioned Chennai, where I spent sometime this March. All of a sudden we discover that Cornel too has been to Chennai and has been doing a survey of gated-communities there. So Cornel tell us when were you last in Chennai and what did you find out about gated communities there? CORNEL WRITES: As the premises are not on any printed > map because they are very new, I had to initially find > out their location from estate agents who had the > flats for sale on line. --- Cornel I believe any reasonable person who can't find the location to the house usually calls up the host to find out directions, which I recall you did. Rarely does a person call up the real-estate agent to get the location to the house you've been invited for lunch. CORNEL WRITES: > b) at one point, you claimed that I must have missed > the gate! Do check this point as a fact. In other > words you initially took the line that there was > indeed a visible gate that I had somehow missed as > well as a substantial fence around, that I had also > somehow missed! - Cornel, no need to rely on memory. This is what I wrote, and I quote: "It could also just be that you missed the wrought-iron gates around it, the 24/7 security guard, the security cameras, the concierge, the 24 hour maintenance team, the manicured lawns, the under-ground parking space, the enclosed gardens, the gym and the terrace garden" In my haste, I mistakenly put gate when I meant wrought-iron fence but the fact that I meant fence is understood by me using the word "around it". Now you yourself acknowledged in your post that there is a wrought-iron fence around it, even though you insist that an "arthritic chappie like you" could jump over it. Infact on one side there is a wall with a barbed-wire on it. As for the other things I mentioned, please I want you to tell me which of those was I exaggerating or lying about. CORNEL WRITES: > Let me end by saying that, I really get quite tired of > some Goans in the West, trying to impress fellow > Goans, particularly in Goa/India with exaggerated > spoken and written claims about rosy living conditions > here. In my book, this is something terribly wrong to > do. Providing an accurate picture is one thing but not > something that may be quite untrue and grossly > exaggerated. --- No Cornel I was not trying to impress anyone. My initial post was about gated communities in India and why they are mushrooming there for the sake of convenience. In that post I wrote two sentences, about gale-winds in Britain, about a garden I play with my daughter in, and about me living in a gated-community similar to the ones mushrooming all over the world. I distinctly remember the post was about "middle-class aspirations" and nowhere do I remember asserting that I belong to the elite, affluent upper-classes of either India or Britain because I don't. I do however think that I have every right to call myself middle-class. Nor did I describe the community or pretend that it is on Rodeo drive or Kensington. It is you who went on a tangent and wrote as if I live in a hovel and a slum here in London. Infact when you well know that I live in very decent dwellings here. I have never felt the need to impress fellow Goans about my residence. I lived in America for years and you'll be hard pressed to find a single post on Goanet about my residence or anything about my living conditions. Thi
Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation
Dear Cornel, As you pointed out I should, I will explicitly retract my that you have not used the word "LIAR" -- that you did not call Selma a liar. I APOLOGIZE. My stating, "My humble opinion is that Dr. DaCosta should not have use the word, liar" can be taken as being incorrect and uninformed. I am not a scholar as you are and do not wish to cause your reputation even the slightest damage on this forum. However, I would still like you to see my thread of though, although it may appear faulty. In issue 776, I read the following bit in your post: (This excerpt follows the figures you provide) "Let me finish by saying that the essence of what I said about the middle classes not living in gated communities in the UK definitely holds. It was the opposite of what you said and my statistical figure confirms this." The inference that you make here suggested that Selma did not know what she was doing and I INFERRED that as going beyond her misunderstanding; and that she was essentially lying to bolster her claims. I should certainly not have said that YOU called her a liar, I could and perhaps should have debated the part above, about your saying that your statistical figure being the opposite of what Selma's views pointed to. I could have and should have not veered towards referring to you as a liar. I allowed myself to get tripped, but I caused you hurt. I now take that hurt upon myself. I am pleased to be part of this forum and realize that although all sorts of issues may be thrown into the pot, I should stop even remotely expecting myself to be able to stay on top of what is said, implied and conjectured. To mean that I have to be even more particular with what I take issue and interest in. Once again, I humbly apologize. If there is any other way besides tending this aplogy, that I may make reparation, do let me know. Venantius J Pinto From: CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet] Of Gated Communities and Misinformation Hi Venantius I have not had a chance to get on to Goanet recently because of other commitments. However, please let me know when I have ever referred to anyone on Goanet as a "LIAR". If unable to do so, I am sure you will be inclined to retract your statement below as totally incorrect and uninformed. Regards Cornel DaCosta --- Venantius Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote My humble opinon > is that Dr. DaCosta > should not have use the word, liar.
