Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario (2)
--- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think it is criticism of a place per se that the local residents and their unconditional supporters take umbrage at, regardless of whether the remarks come from a resident or non-resident, but the tone and attitude of the critic as reflected in the critique. --- Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is where you begin to lose credibility. First you say that you saw none of the garbage, traffic or architectural ugliness that has come to define Goa, but when confronted with the same scenario from another poster, you resort to the lame excuse of not liking the tones of certain posters. Mario responds: When someone takes an adversarial and deliberately contentious position from mine, especially someone with pretentious and negative comments about Goa their lack of credibility in my opinions validates my position. There is a chasm between your attitude and that of your friend and co-conspirator, Roland, that I took issue with, and that of Sonia, whose comments were fair and balanced and rueful, and did not compare Goa by western standards, whereas yours could only be described as snide. In both cases I questioned who in a free society gets to decide the beauty or lack thereof of a building or project they own. When you and Roland build your own we will see what it looks like. My opinions on the traffic are well documented. It is no different from any other part of India. And anyone who casts such a jaundiced eye on the garbage situation cannot be very familiar with India either. Selma writes: Regardless of our difference in ideology, I had always had respect for your emails. Unfortunately now I realise that you don't have any loyalty to truth or conviction but rather to petty politicking on the board. Mario responds: Once again, respect is not something I seek from those who seek to tear Goa down while living confortably abroad. Perhaps you have failed to notice that there were several Goanetters far more familiar with the Goan scene, who took far more strident issue with your snide comments.
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario
Hi Selma and Melvyn I am somewhat surprised that this theme has veered on to Goanet. However, for a moment I thought that you were referring to Pinochet, the dictator, who was installed at the behest of the USA and received full military support to oust the democratically elected President Ahende (spelling?) of Chile. Did someone accidentally say, that the USA was keen on democratically elected governments rather than right-wing military regimes? Among many other places, one doesn't have to be a cynic to see how various South American governments have fared at the hands of the USA if they did not adhere closely to American right-wing ideology. The views of the left-wing Chavez of Venezuela (re Bush's America) are of some interest on this count. He said on 28/7/06 After almost 200 years, we can see that the USA was designed to fill the entire world with poverty as if in the name of freedom...the USA empire is the greatest threat which exists in the world today. This is a senseless, blind and dumb giant, who does not know the world, does not know human rights, and does not know anything about humanity, culture, conscience, or consciousness. I think we have to take Chavez with a pinch of salt for he may not be entirely right about America. However, after innumerable assassination attempts on his life as well as on his associate Fidel Castro, by the USA, one may have some sympathy for those standing against the great hegemon, the USA. Cheers Cornel - Original Message - From: Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:44 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario Carvalho wrote: Many a dissident has been executed simply because a dictator didn't like his tone. This excuse factors in that no other tangible reason need be given. selma, This sort of reminds me of what is going on in Guantanamo Bay. Children being detained for years with no reason nor with any charge. Mervyn3.0
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario
On 22/12/06, Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Selma and Melvyn I am somewhat surprised that this theme has veered on to Goanet. However, for a moment I thought that you were referring to Pinochet, the dictator, who was installed at the behest of the USA and received full military support to oust the democratically elected President Ahende (spelling?) of Chile. Did someone accidentally say, that the USA was keen on democratically elected governments rather than right-wing military regimes? RESPONSE: This was in today's Times:- America's Double Standard on Democracy in the Middle East Viewpoint: What's good for Beirut is not good for Gaza, according to Washington's playbook. And that discrepancy undermines the credibility of U.S. claims to be promoting democracy in the region By NICHOLAS BLANFORD/BEIRUT In Lebanon as in Gaza, democratically elected governments are being challenged by political opponents demanding fresh elections — and in each place, the standoff threatens to spark a civil war. Yet, the response of the U.S. and Britain to each crisis has been so different as to provoke accusations of double-standards and questions about the West's commitment to democracy in the Arab world. Click on to the URL below for a full read ! http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1572574,00.html -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Sonia (2)
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html Thank you Mario,much appreciated. We in Goa have progressed quite a bit, but these basic problems, which plague most Indian cities have to be dealt with. I do wish you and your family a very Merry X'mas and a good Year too. Warm wishes, Sonia -- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html --- sonia gomes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Traffic is really terrible, we have racing bikes on all roads and accidents are very frequent. And although we do conserve a lot of old buildings, ugly buildings with no aesthetics are everywhere even in Verna my village. --- Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Sonia, I have retained your mail in its totality just incase anyone missed reading it. You will now be called every name in the book for speaking the truth and your loyalty to Goa questioned. I'm glad you've made it clear at the onset that you are a Goan residing in Goa. At least no one can accuse you of preaching from Goa itself. Mario observes: In my never humble opinion, Sonia will not be subjected to any such abuse or questions about her loyalty, even though she does not reside in Goa, because a) her loyalty to Goa is pretty obvious from the tone and content of her rueful remarks, b) she did not make any gratuitous and inappropriate negative comparisons between Goa and other places, and c) her remarks were fair and balanced and recognizable by most reasonable observers familiar with Goa. I don't think it is criticism of a place per se that the local residents and their unconditional supporters take umbrage at, regardless of whether the remarks come from a resident or non-resident, but the tone and attitude of the critic as reflected in the critique. Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario (2)
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051747.html --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think it is criticism of a place per se that the local residents and their unconditional supporters take umbrage at, regardless of whether the remarks come from a resident or non-resident, but the tone and attitude of the critic as reflected in the critique. Dear Mario, Many a dissident has been executed simply because a dictator didn't like his tone. This excuse factors in that no other tangible reason need be given. This is where you begin to lose credibility. First you say that you saw none of the garbage, traffic or architectural ugliness that has come to define Goa, but when confronted with the same scenario from another poster, you resort to the lame excuse of not liking the tones of certain posters. Regardless of our difference in ideology, I had always had respect for your emails. Unfortunately now I realise that you don't have any loyalty to truth or conviction but rather to petty politicking on the board. selma __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Sonia
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html Hi Selma, You know name calling does not bother me, incidentally I do not live in Goa but in Bangalore, which is also a mess in terms of infrastucture, roads and pavements. But that is improving bit by bit and frankly Bangalore for me is a stopover until I come back to Goa. Of course Goa is unique, but this is fast disappearing, for one we are too communal, we were so secular we never ever thought of religions, but things change. Have I opened another can of worms? A good year to all of us Goans, irrespective of creed and class. Warm wishes, Sonia --- Carvalho wrote: Dear Sonia, I have retained your mail in its totality just incase anyone missed reading it. You will now be called every name in the book for speaking the truth and your loyalty to Goa questioned. I'm glad you've made it clear at the onset that you are a Goan residing in Goa. At least no one can accuse you of preaching; from Goa itself. selma
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario (2)
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051398.html --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In addition, you may have missed it, but several Goanetters who live in Goa have taken issue with your and Roland's consistently jaundiced view of Goa and Goans, your inappropriate comparisons and pessimistic outlook for the future. -- Mario, I hope you didn't miss Sonia's post on Goa, which unfortunately says exactly what I've been saying about the garbage, the traffic and the destruction of architectural heritage. But why take my word for it, try reading a Goan newspaper for once. They're available on the net now. If they are reporting that garbage, traffic and the wholesale selling of Goa to the construction lobby is not a problem, I'll eat my shoe. I'll even post a picture of me eating my shoe. selma __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Selma (2)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ --- Mario Goveia wrote: Selma, With such a determined list of preconceived expectations, I'm sure that all your negative expectations will be completely fulfilled. I believe its called a self-fulfilling prophecy. --- Carvalho wrote: Dear Mario, Unlike you I don't have preconceived expectations or notions of whatever I write about Goa. I am not a visitor to Goa. I am only a visitor to the US. Goa is my home which I know very well, the fact that I am currently spending time away from it does not make me a tourist with a two-week window view of the place. Mario responds: Here is what you wrote previously, which sound like pre-conceived notions to me, I too shall be traveling to Goa soon and am looking forward to the changes that will be greet me. Doubtless there shall be mental comparisons made when I see the mounting garbage, the reckless traffic, the ugly facade of new buildings erected without planning and without a hint of an architectural soul in them. In addition, you may have missed it, but several Goanetters who live in Goa have taken issue with your and Roland's consistently jaundiced view of Goa and Goans, your inappropriate comparisons and pessimistic outlook for the future. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ I have been following this thread off and on ! There is no doubt that all of us love and cherish Goa, but I think we are developing an ostrich attitude. I can speak for Margao, because that's the place I visit most often. Some years back it was quite clean and I am told that it was thanks to Mr. Parrikar, but last May I saw practically every traffic island in a mess, old tyres and other garbage on them. The hawkers are back at the SBI and the mess is slowly creeping in. Yes we need to clean Goa, even the garbage in villages is increasing, the tiny rivulet at the back of my house where we spent hours playing, is dirty with every kind of filth in it. There is no garbage collection in villages and vacant plots are dumping grounds. Traffic is really terrible, we have racing bikes on all roads and accidents are very frequent. And although we do conserve a lot of old buildings, ugly buildings with no aesthetics are everywhere even in Verna my village. A very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone Regards, Sonia --- Carvalho wrote: Mario, It doesn't surprise me that you didn't see the ugly buildings replacing old beautiful one, nor notice the mounting garbage. Compared to New York, Goa is positively pristine. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Selma, With such a determined list of preconceived expectations, I'm sure that all your negative expectations will be completely fulfilled. I believe its called a self-fulfilling prophecy. -- Dear Mario, Unlike you I don't have preconceived expectations or notions of whatever I write about Goa. I am not a visitor to Goa. I am only a visitor to the US. Goa is my home which I know very well, the fact that I am currently spending time away from it does not make me a tourist with a two-week window view of the place. selma Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Helga
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ Mario, Stacey was driving all over Goa which worked well for me who did not even know to drive then! Helga I'm glad that your friend, Stacey, saw none of ... the mounting garbage, the reckless traffic, the ugly facade of new buildings erected without planning and without a hint of an architectural soul in them. Neither did I the last time I was in Goa. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario observes: Helga, I'm glad that your friend, Stacey, saw none of ... the mounting garbage, the reckless traffic, the ugly facade of new buildings erected without planning and without a hint of an architectural soul in them. Neither did I the last time I was in Goa. --- Mario, It doesn't surprise me that you didn't see the ugly buildings replacing old beautiful one, nor notice the mounting garbage. Compared to New York, Goa is positively pristine. selma Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Helga
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ --- Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I too shall be traveling to Goa soon and am looking forward to the changes that will be greet me. Doubtless there shall be mental comparisons made when I see the mounting garbage, the reckless traffic, the ugly facade of new buildings erected without planning and without a hint of an architectural soul in them. Mario asks: Selma, With such a determined list of preconceived expectations, I'm sure that all your negative expectations will be completely fulfilled. I believe its called a self-fulfilling prophecy. I was looking for all these ghastly things last February after being warned by the naysayers, and didn't see any of it, other than the reckless traffic, which I was soon a part of for my own safety:-)) Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Helga
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Spread the Christmas cheer - even when you're not here! Send Christmas Greetings to your loved ones in Goa. 2006 Christmas - Two Packages available from EXPRESSIONS http://www.goa-world.com/expressions/xmas/ --- Helga do Rosario Gomes wrote: To quote my friend Stacey Young from NY who fell in love with Goa in two nanosecs - Don't call it a house Helga, its a home! Mario observes: Helga, I'm glad that your friend, Stacey, saw none of ... the mounting garbage, the reckless traffic, the ugly facade of new buildings erected without planning and without a hint of an architectural soul in them. Neither did I the last time I was in Goa. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Helga
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051412.html Hi Selma, Even though you have abandoned this thread I would like add one more post to this discussion and this one is to state that I do not question your love for Goa or your loyalty. Unlike our President I do not possess a meter that allows me to measure loyalty and patriotism. We certainly cant compare India to Iran- where lives under a West leaning despot turned into lives under a brutal theocracy with not even an simple experiment in democracy like the one by the Pants from Pune that they undertook as the British were leaving - I know because one of their daughters Aditi Pant was my PhD advisor. But I know why our points of view differ - you were taken as a young girl to the Middle East which afforded you opportunities for a career etc that young women of my age and maybe yours did not have in Goa. As a young woman we had few options - medicine, teaching or working in a bank. Marriage to a well established upper-class man was to many young women the best and easiest option . Perhaps we were used to courts that work slowly, apathetic cops, rude and lazy government workers and a hospital where the poor are treated like dirt by the ones who should be caring for them - we did not know better and many still don't. Buying a car was almost like winning Mervyns's lottery and a phone was Kohinoorean in value as was overseas travel and any other luxury. So when I see the opportunities for the young people of today it pleases me immensely. As you pointed out to Sunith only the wealthy or the upper class could have an education and EVERY job required a sugar daddy. Well now the scene at least from where I am standing is totally different: education is affordable to everyone as is overseas travel which to me is a also great education, there are plenty of jobs to be had based purely on merit and really few want to work in a government office or even a bank. In fact the ICCI bank has such a high turnover that they are no longer able to provide the great service they used to. Old conservative families have changed their outlook and the field has leveled. There is a chance for a better life not just for the upper class but for everyone. However I do understand that you would like to see more happening in Goa and that what I see as advantages may not seem so to you raised as you were in an affluent country. Well its up to Goans now to elect leaders that can serve them better, to insist on zoning laws, better traffic conditions etc And many are doing so. Valmiki Faleiro had some excellent articles on the traffic situation, Clinton and many others are trying to solve the garbage problem. A river had to catch fire before the US caught up to the fact that they were polluting their water sources and Rachel Carson fought a long and hard battle against DDT. We are still reeling over what it is costing us to pay for a war that was endorsed by 75% and now by only 30% - the difference learned the hard way. Even now the US is fighting a severe battle against drugs, guns and obesity. I have hope for Goa and that's why I will be going back again next week - to do what I love best. Meet my friends, neighbors and enjoy the warmth of a great community where Christmas has not lost its spirit! Happy holidays and don't let the gulab jamum lady bite! Helga -- Dear Helga, It is customary on this forum to make politically correct and patronising statements about Goa. Anyone who doesn't play alongwith the game is soon vilified. I stopped responding to this thread sometime ago because apart from the righteous rhetoric there really Stating something does not bring into question one's own loyalty and love for their mother-land. It merely catapults one into debate and seeking of avenues to reverse the situation. We must get over this need to demonise someone with a contrary view and that too with the most personal of insults. Selma Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/ Reply to Bosco
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051412.html Hi Bosco, A few clarifications and comments regarding your interesting reply. Bosco writes: Sunith, I think you need to correct your perceptions. I haven't talked about Goans selling houses, proper healthcare, etc, etc I think only Roland and you have tried to make comparisons of Goa with other places. So when you say 'you', I think you mean Roland ?? Sunith responds: I mean't all Goanetters who do use this comparison(mainly Roland and Selma). I don't believe you've ever done so in this context. Bosco writes: Don't you think the authorities and people in Goa would be best served by learning from the mistakes of others? Sunith responds: I fully agree. That is the way the Wise would learn. Fools learn through needless pain and suffering, but they too learn eventually. Which is my main point. Bosco writes: I think your point b) is out of context here. It would help to understand what was the purpose of raising this issue of fiscal imbalance between the state and national governments in this exchange. Sunith responds: My point was perhaps a little out of context to this discussion. What I was trying to highlight here is that many people think because of the revenue generated in Goa through Government levies annually(approx Rs 2,500 Crores or 550 million USD) the Goan government is rich. However it is worthwhile to point out that only about Rs. 250-350 Crores comes back to the Goan Government. So while we have many rich Goan individuals, our Government coffers are quite empty. Hence there is a chronic lack of funds to spend on infrastructure, healthcare, etc. This shortage of funds(that already exists) is undoubtedly made worse by a corrupt executive and legislature. Bosco writes: If I could choose one area that displeases me - its the transport/transit system and its allied sphere of influences. Sunith responds: The joke that is public transport and transit in our beloved Goa has baffled me for a long time. But what do we do with a people so genetically programmed to oppose change. An example of the functioning of the Goan brain... Just before I left Goa, there were a series of truck mishaps on the ridiculously narrow National Highway 17 passing through Canacona that halted traffic for many hours for a couple of days in a row. The local residents protested vociferously(and rightly so!) against Governement inaction. When the North- South Six Lane Access Controlled Highway Project was announced guess who were the first ones to oppose it. The Canconkars themselves!! My hopes now rest with Santosh or his brain researching colleagues because this behaviour is now beyond amateurs like me or even experienced psychologists/psychiatrics. Bosco writes: You may want to do some serious reading on the nexus between various levels of governments in southern Italy and the Mafia in the 60s, 70s 80s especially how the Mafia made money while cutting into infrastructure development projects of the time, abetted by individuals in government. Protection money is still paid - to this day. Sunith responds: I agree again, only one difference though.In India no such nexus exists because the biggest criminals and extortionists are all politicians themselves. Best Regards Sunith -- Sunith D Velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Helga
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051412.html --- Helga do Rosario Gomes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Selma, Even though you have abandoned this thread I would like add one more post to this discussion and this one is to state that I do not question your love for Goa or your loyalty. --- Dear Helga, That was so eloquently put, nothing I say can add to or detract from the efficacy of your argument. I think all of us here share a great love for Goa and sometimes get carried away in trying to defend it. Perhaps the Shakespearean tragedian or comedian in us takes over. I too shall be traveling to Goa soon and am looking forward to the changes that will be greet me. Doubtless there shall be mental comparisons made when I see the mounting garbage, the reckless traffic, the ugly facade of new buildings erected without planning and without a hint of an architectural soul in them. All this shall ofcourse pale into the background when I see the smile on both sets of grandparents, when I hear the crickets chirping, the fireflies dancing into the cool of evening's dusk, the foxes crying across green acres of paddy, the stars peeping out of nights so dark as if the moon had forgotten where Goa is on the map. Lying in my bedroom, looking out of my window, it'll be good to be home at last, feeding my soul on the lavish buffet that is Goa. take care, selma Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Helga
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051412.html Yes Selma nothing beats entering your home and seeing the old walls still strong and welcoming - its amazing how even an old door that just wouldn't lock properly and still doesn't in spite of the best efforts of your carpenter can be a great souvenir! To quote my friend Stacey Young from NY who fell in love with Goa in two nanosecs - Don't call it a house Helga, its a home! And the wonderful people who welcome you to their homes, the teenagers who don't think it uncool to visit older people, drink tea and chit chat with you about outsourcing and which shops have the best salwaar. And the big cribs/nativity scenes in every Salcete village - the joint effort of village boys competing with the next vaddo! Check out the one at Pedda Benaulim - my ancestral home. When will you be home? Helga Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa
* * * 2006 ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET - GOA * * * WHERE: Foodland Cafe - Miramar Residency - Miramar, Goa WHEN: December 21, 2006 @ 4:00pm More info: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-December/051412.html On Wed Dec 6 04:52:12 PST 2006, Sunith D Velho wrote: When you talk about Goans selling houses, proper healthcare, migrant labour, corruption, etc the common denominator in all these issues is money or economics. My point is this, please compare Goa with other democratic regions of the world today with similar economics and stop these non-sensical comparisons with USA, Dubai or Canada. If you must compare the two then compare them when both regions were in a similar state of economic development. Hardly rocket science all this, just plain common sense. RESPONSE: Sunith, I think you need to correct your perceptions. I haven't talked about Goans selling houses, proper healthcare, etc, etc I think only Roland and you have tried to make comparisons of Goa with other places. So when you say 'you', I think you mean Roland ?? Hence it is not sensible to compare Goa and Toronto, because Canada is a first world economy and India is a third world developing economy. RESPONSE: I agree with you with regard to the ill-advised comparisons. But do note that India is the largest economy among the group of G15 countries. So it must do more to keep itself head and shoulders above the others. a)New York in the 1900's was a developing economy as well. b)Goa gets less than 10% of the money it remits to the Indian government, back. c)Catholic elites excluded, Goans as a whole now have a higher per capita income, litercacy rate and better access to healthcare than ever before in Goa's history. RESPONSE: I think your point b) is out of context here. It would help to understand what was the purpose of raising this issue of fiscal imbalance between the state and national governments in this exchange. My point is this, please compare Goa with other democratic regions of the world today with similar economics and stop these non-sensical comparisons with USA, Dubai or Canada. So I really don't see why you were so amused by my post comparing Goa to NYC in the (1900's). Please tell me again. RESPONSE: I think you answered your own question above. Don't compare Goa with anything. Not New York of the 1900s (which present day Goa is not); not USA, Dubai or Canada. Today's Goa certainly has better access to healthcare and a higher literacy rate than New York of the 1900s. Amusement is often a defence mechanism to situations that seem completely beyond our grasp or understanding. RESPONSE: I hope you now understand why I'm amused as you still want to persist in comparing present day Goa with New York of the 1900s, a second time. Are you also now implying that organised crime is a problem in Goa by drawing parallels to the Mafia in Italy. You should be competing for space with Cecil on the GT humour columns. RESPONSE: You may want to do some serious reading on the nexus between various levels of governments in southern Italy and the Mafia in the 60s, 70s 80s especially how the Mafia made money while cutting into infrastructure development projects of the time, abetted by individuals in government. Protection money is still paid - to this day. Anyways while the Italians had Falcone we have our encounter specialists(who are all still alive) just across the border. RESPONSE: As I said..this is not a competition over whose got what. This is an attempt to try and re-align the debate on a very important topic that unfortunately got derailed. Goa has a few unique problems of its own. If I could choose one area that displeases me - its the transport/transit system and its allied sphere of influences. Better transit is healthy for the people, the environment and the economy. Goa is slowly losing its rural space and is gradually being urbanized. There is very little that can be done to arrest that change. So for all those with memories of Goa when it was the quaint lil village, etc, etc..tough luck..I'm sure there are some Goanetters with similar view of Ibiza and Majorca. As you've rightly stated, affluence has arrived to the posorkar. North Americans are now realizing their folly for indulging in the love affair with their automobiles and are stranded on highways that have turned into parking lots. Don't you think the authorities and people in Goa would be best served by learning from the mistakes of others? You seem to be missing my point. I'll make one last effort(I mean it this time). RESPONSE: With an impersonal medium like email, its quite likely I'm missing your point albeit I certainly hope not.
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa
Dear Bosco, You seem to be missing my point. I'll make one last effort(I mean it this time). When you talk about Goans selling houses, proper healthcare, migrant labour, corruption, etc the common denominator in all these issues is money or economics. Hence it is not sensible to compare Goa and Toronto, because Canada is a first world economy and India is a third world developing economy. You must be aware that, a)New York in the 1900's was a developing economy as well. b)Goa gets less than 10% of the money it remits to the Indian government, back. c)Catholic elites excluded, Goans as a whole now have a higher per capita income, litercacy rate and better access to healthcare than ever before in Goa's history. Goa never compared to the first world (from the 1900's onwards) unless you were a bhatkar. If your bhats were big enough, your lifestyle in Goa today will still compare(or exceed) with the rich in the West. My point is this, please compare Goa with other democratic regions of the world today with similar economics and stop these non-sensical comparisons with USA, Dubai or Canada. If you must compare the two then compare them when both regions were in a similar state of economic development. Hardly rocket science all this, just plain common sense. So I really don't see why you were so amused by my post comparing Goa to NYC in the (1900's). Please tell me again. Amusement is often a defence mechanism to situations that seem completely beyond our grasp or understanding. Are you also now implying that organised crime is a problem in Goa by drawing parallels to the Mafia in Italy. You should be competing for space with Cecil on the GT humour columns. Anyways while the Italians had Falcone we have our encounter specialists(who are all still alive) just across the border. Best Regards -- Sunith D Velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bosco writes: I found Sunith's comparisons of NewYork of the 1900s with present day Goa amusing. Instead of moving forward he seems to be acknowledging that Goa is going backward. Never mind crime and corruption in New York in the 1900s; Contemporary Goa draws parallels to Southern Italy of the 1970s, 80s, 90s - with similar tales of the Cosa Nostra the Corleones. Big difference - Goa is yet to find its Giovanni Falcone or Paolo Borsellino. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa
--- Helga do Rosario Gomes wrote: Hi Philomena, This is not a specific response to you but to the ongoing discussion The mess that is Goa which was very disturbing for me not 'enlightening or entertaining' as it luckily was for you. Mario observes: Helga, Thanks for a fair and balanced exposition of this issue. In my never humble opinion, we don't hear your reasoned commentary often enough, and we need to. I grew up outside Goa, have only a vague memory of what the Portophiles refer to as the good old days, and now enjoy Goa as I find it once a year and bask in the rejuvenating warmth of friends and family. My view is colored by my attitude that most glasses that are in use are always somewhat half full rather than half empty, and that things will always eventually get better when a broad spectrum of private decisionmaking is taking place rather than decisions being made for everyone by a small cabal of ruling elites. While being part of a chaotic democratic republic, I believe Goa is evolving more than devolving, as is the rest of India. Its bucolic charm is rapidly disappearing and being replaced by something more economically sustainable. Goa is no more chaotic or corrupt or messy or socially callous than any other part of India. Its most strident critics seem to live elsewhere, as do I, but I choose instead to build it up and provide as much moral and financial support as I can, knowing that everyone involved, the locals as well as those in the diaspora are all making individual decisions they think will be in the best interests of themselves and their families. Everyone in the diaspora can do something positive for Goa, each according to their means, from investing in businesses or property before the foreigners buy it all, to donating whatever they can to organizations like Goa Sudharop or one of the several other worthy charitable organizations where we know the money will be wisely spent. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa
I found Sunith's comparisons of NewYork of the 1900s with present day Goa amusing. Instead of moving forward he seems to be acknowledging that Goa is going backward. Never mind crime and corruption in New York in the 1900s; Contemporary Goa draws parallels to Southern Italy of the 1970s, 80s, 90s - with similar tales of the Cosa Nostra the Corleones. Big difference - Goa is yet to find its Giovanni Falcone or Paolo Borsellino. If Sunith was amusing, Cecil Pinto's stand on the debate was down right hilarious (just like his weekly column) complete with a list of laws and by-laws from the Canadian landscape of the 19th (not even 20th) century. I guess only in Goa is safe to fall off a two-wheeler travelling at 5kmph. Cecil's penchant for detail, cracked me up today when he ferreted out Helga's blooper. One fella had to write-in to say he had no opinion. I thought Netiquette demanded one just kept quiet if one did not have an opinion. Apart from the sometimes jingoistic exchanges on this thread, are we sincerely ready to acknowledge Goa's shortcomings? Or is Valmiki Faleiro, Aires Rodrigues, VM, Floriano Lobo and other eminent personalities in Goa that address social issues at the grassroots just shooting the breeze ?? For some unfortunate reason (possibly personal) this turned into a Goan-expatriate vs Goan-in-Goa exchange. I think the latter should let the former indulge himself in nostalgic recollections. That's how the human psyche works. I find it absurd that a Goan-expatriate should be disqualified from expressing (him)herself on issues in Goa especially when some of us have family that live in Goa or own real estate and/or a business(es) there - we are affected in some way or the other. Its quite natural for the human psyche to wish for a better life not just for themselves but for family and friends in Goa too. I think everybody subscribed here or expresses an opinion here about Goa, does so because we care about Goa. While Goan expatriates may love and cherish Goa, there is a finite limitation as to what they can do to influence issues in Goa. We Goans have been a vagabond people that have perpetually migrated within Goa, India and the corners of the world. Irrespective of where we are, we will always have an opinion of Goa. Best - Bosco T-dot! Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa
/software company in Canada from that in India except for the fact that (to the greater pleasure of some politician in France) you are forced to wear the most cruel of all garments - the oxygen impermeable stockings and a 60% discounted Banana Republic suit. Are Goan kids not just as brilliant as we tout our kids to be? Are they less funny, less sharp or less friendly? 5) And please lets not call Goa socegad-land (sic). I lived there for a greater part of my life and I as busy and as productive as the next NYer in the city that never sleeps. Its just a different dynamism. 6) Finally I am glad that Cecil is enjoying all the IFFI movies and I hope that we Goans living overseas make use of cultural opportunities afforded to us like Cecil is and not be constantly entangled in sorpotel-SFX feast-bingo socials. There! I have already learned something from a Goan and I wasn't even trying! - Original Message - From: Filomena Giese [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa . Glad that resident Goans like Cecil tell us about the many plus-es of life in Goa today - it's still a wonderful life in socegad-land! Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa
Is it Goa or Goans who are in a *mess*? We love to criticise, often without doing anything but cursing the darkness. Often sitting half a planet away. We prefer to turn a blind eye's to our own contribution in making the mess! Capital's depredations of today's Goa rests firmly on both middle class consumerism and ambition. If not, convince me why. FN On 03/12/06, sunil monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Soemtimes i wonder what is the actual meaning of the title The Mess that is GOA i have been reading articles on the same but nothing constructive relating to the topic per se. It's just ventilation of emotions and -- FN 9822122436 +91-832-240-9490 (phone calls after 1 pm please) FLOSS, geeks, blogs: [http://planet.foss.in/] Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa
THE MESS THAT GOA IS does not sound well it should read THE MESS THAT GOANS HAVE PLUNGED THE BEAUTIFUL GOA INTO sounds interesting to me. Just like Politics is not a dirty subject but the Politicians play it dirty so is about Goa. Goa can never be a mess if we Goans are not messed up in our behaviour, thinking and doing away with our crab mentality. Arletto Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa/response to Helga
--- Helga do Rosario Gomes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) Selma, I don't think that Goa is devolving although what's your time line i.e. from when did it start to devolve? From the time you were laid on that table in Ribandar?!!! -- Dear Helga, It is customary on this forum to make politically correct and patronising statements about Goa. Anyone who doesn't play alongwith the game is soon vilified. I stopped responding to this thread sometime ago because apart from the righteous rhetoric there really wasn't a substantive argument. The reason I said Goa was devolving is because I'm old enough to remember Iran. I was a very young girl at the time but I remember how overnight this once mega hub of the Middle East turned into an Islamic cultural incarceration for its people. How in the blink of an evolutionary milisecond the lives of my Iranian friends had been changed forever. It is foolhardly to believe that change in all its guises is always in linear progression. Evolution and devolution of society can be taking place simultaneously amidst a lot of noise, which at the time can seem like progress. For me, a state is in devolution when its political institutions are unable to create a stable environment and its law and order situation has deteriorated to the point where ordinary citizens can no longer place their trust in it but resort to vigilantism. These two factors are become more and more obvious in Goa. Now, the obvious response to this will be that Goa cannot be likened to Iran. Perhaps not, but can it be likened to Bihar? Stating something does not bring into question one's own loyalty and love for their mother-land. It merely catapults one into debate and seeking of avenues to reverse the situation. We must get over this need to demonise someone with a contrary view and that too with the most personal of insults. Selma Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
[Goanet] The Mess that is Goa
Soemtimes i wonder what is the actual meaning of the title The Mess that is GOA i have been reading articles on the same but nothing constructive relating to the topic per se. It's just ventilation of emotions and frustrations by a few goanet writers and shooting bullets complaining about the mess that Goa is from overseas. Reminds me of fighting a battle on the battle ground by sitting at home. Nonetheless, we as goans have only complained about Goa in many ways and we will remain like this forever, we have not bothered to work hard in our own land but ready to do work overseas and then complain that Goa is a mess, while we complain outsiders have come made a fortune , grabbed land built palatial houses, having dubious deals in goa under different company names and strking good orders for supply of many products to Govt and other institutions and they are still repeaing us left right and centre. Now who has made Goa a mess? _ Get up-to-date with movies, music and TV. Its happening on MSN Entertainment http://content.msn.co.in/Entertainment/Default Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa
Amen to that. Long live the Goan spirit of caring and camraderie. Long live Goa Sudharop. Roland. On 12/2/06, Filomena Giese [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's wonderful to belong to this responsible and caring circle of Goanet readers. Filomena Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
My apologies for the delay in responding to Roland Francis. Have been overdosing on world-class cinema and the company of film makers and film lovers. And to come back from that inspiring and invigorating experience to this petty mudslinging (my lifestyle choices are better than yours!) is a pity, but one has to do what one must. Actually Sunith, Aristo and others have done a great job of rubbishing, and showing the inherent contradictions in, the views held by Roland (and the Cheerleader). But let me add my bit too: - Roland Francis (RF) wrote: Cecil, your hollow rebuttal points to my post are just codswallop (thanks for making the word popular on Goanet, Cornel). Cecil Pinto (CP) repiles: I do not use words like 'hollow' and 'codswallop' while analysing your points. Grant me the same respect. -- RF: You have more laws and rules than Canada has. The major difference is you don't implement them! CP: You probably are right Roland, but could you explain to me the purpose of implementing the laws below? Canada - You may not pay for a fifty-cent item with only pennies. - Citizens may not publicly remove bandages. - It is illegal for clear or non-dark sodas to contain caffeine. Alberta Provincial Laws - Wooden logs may not be painted. - It is illegal to set fire to the wooden leg of a wooden legged man New Brunswick Provincial Laws - Driving on the roads is not allowed. Nova Scotia Provincial Laws - When raining, a person may not water his/her lawn. City Laws Etobicoke - Bylaw states that no more than 3.5 inches of water is allowed in a bathtub. Cobourg - If you have a water trough in your front yard it must be filled by 5:00 a.m. Guelph - The city is classified as a no-pee zone. Kanata - The colour of house and garage doors is regulated by city bylaws (a purple door get you a fine). It is also illegal to have a clothes line in your backyard. Oshawa - It's illegal to climb trees. Ottawa - It is illegal to eat ice-cream on Bank Street on a Sunday. Toronto - You can't drag a dead horse down Yonge St. on a Sunday. Uxbridge - Residents are not allowed to have an Internet connection faster than 56k. Wawa - You may not paint a ladder as it will be slippery when wet. - It is illegal to show public affection on Sunday. Quebec Provincial Laws - No language other than French is permitted to be shown out doors. City Laws Beaconsfield - It is considered an offence to have more than two colours of paint on your house. Montréal - You may not park a car in such a way that it is blocking your own driveway. - You may not swear in French. Outremont - Not only do all exterior painting jobs require a permit (for colour) but, for instance, the City went to Appeals Court over the exact type of division inside a window frame. --- RF: How about this one, from your own article in the Gomantak Times of October 26, 2006 re posted on Goanet: quote Astride my trusted Activa scooter, with Desmond seated behind and Fabian in front, we would do the standard route from Tonca through Panjim to Mala and back, and in the process see every Narkasur in town. unquote. Now tell me Cecil if Indian laws allow 3 passengers on a two-seater (safety wise, here in the west scooters are deemed one-seaters, but never mind that) and also tell me of how much importance your sons' lives are to you, no matter how many other people do it. Or is it just that you, like everybody else just ignore the laws and expect that a) no accidents will happen to you and b) Goa will somehow become a better place despite you breaking the laws. CP: I will try and answer your multiple part question as best I can. To the best of my knowledge I am within the limits of the law if I have a child standing on the front footrest of my scooter and another child sitting pillion. And riding at a speed of about 5kmph in snail pace traffic could hardly be considered risking my sons lives. Regardless, what I can't understand is why you (and the Cheerleader) can't have a rational debate without trying to use personal baits. My concern for my sons lives has no bearing on the matter being discussed. Are you suggesting that in some way you are a better father than me? Lets not go there. I do not advocate breaking or ignoring laws. I am also for rationality over red tape. RF And I wouldn't be surprised from the tone of your reply (seen below) to a serious matter like drinking and driving that you deem that issue inconsequential too (because you didn't drink enough or whatever the rule is in Canada). CP: I do not advocate drinking and driving. Come Roland, the world knows that the overbearing laws in Canada are suffocating to say the least. If you are happy with every aspect of your lifestyle being codified I have no problem with that. Only don't try to tell me it is a 'superior' in some way, to our lifestyle in Goa. Before this becomes a Canada v/s Goa thing let me assure you it is
Re: [Goanet] The mess that is Goa
Glad that we have a forum like Goanet to air our views. This exchange (The mess that is Goa) has been both enlightening and entertaining. Glad that overseas Goans like Roland (and myself some time ago) can express our concern and regret that more isn't done in Goa for sustainable development. Glad that resident Goans like Cecil tell us about the many plus-es of life in Goa today - it's still a wonderful life in socegad-land! To sum up, there are problems to lament about and there are positive aspects to be proud of in Goa. What counts is that we all get together and pitch in to help in whatever way we can. Roland and Cecil may appear to be on the opposite sides of an argument, but they are pitching in to help Goa Sudharop's efforts for betterment - Roland donated an expensive wrist watch and Cecil donated a special flower arrangement to the Goa Sudharop international raffle organized by yet another committed Goenkar, Mervyn, from Toronto. It's wonderful to belong to this responsible and caring circle of Goanet readers. Filomena Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
[Goanet] The Mess that is Goa ..
Selma writes I wish instead of the expected self-righteous responses that we saw, at least one Goan in Goa had stood up and said, yes, I too am fed-up. I too am fed ,up that after 50 years of independence we don't have an infrastructure that could sustain some sort of industry, that we don't have an education system that earns merit beyond Karwar, that we don't have politicians who can garner respect or serve one term without being embroiled in some dirty scam. I'm fed-up that our youth don't have employment opportunities, that when they leave the house we're not sure they'll return because the roads have claimed so many of their lives. I can argue on this point by point. I do not wish to. Instead i do what you want a Goan to do. Accept that Goa is going to the dogs. Ok. I stand up. I am fed up. Now, just tell me what am i to do. Where do i go? Dubai or Canada? Do you know any other better place? Most of all I'm fed-up that I don't have hope in my heart for the generations of Goans that will come after me. Instead, all I have to pass onto them is a legacy of hopelessness. I disagree. I live in Goa. I see the sorry state of affairs here. But i will not give up. Why, you ask? Because, as hopeless as you may be, there are others who are hopeful. I see the educated youth of today more aware of the degradation of Goa than some 60 year old KNOW-ALL and aspiring cyberspace hero sitting across the Atlantic Ocean. And its not just awareness , i see perseverance and resolve to fight for Goa. Its an uphill task, but someone has to do the dirty work. You may have given up, we havent. Sounds dreamy and far-fetched? It does not matter how it sounds to you. Yes, strike out at all the Goans who do not live in Goa. Stomp the moral higher ground if it makes you feel better. But at the end of the day, it's your living in denial and apathy that will be Goa's Apocalypse. 1) Goans are not in denial mode. Its too late for that. We are aware of the turpitude surrounding this land. Some Goans are not in give-up mode either :) 2)No one is striking out at anyone here. I do not see any malice towards those who do not live in Goa. Like Cecil said 'To each his own'. I dont see the Goans of the current generation buying much into all this 'legacy of hopelessness' and 'devastating logic' and 'hybrid castes'. Remember, Goan in Goa or Goan in Canada or Dubai or USA. Goan hindu or Goan catholic. Goan after all. Take a chill pill. Shouting hoarse on Goanet may score you points, but it wont settle any larger issues. Jason. P.S. This is a continuation of the previous post. I think the previous message got garbled. Or truncated. Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
My apologies to the admin team others for the long post below, but I have combined my reply to Roland Selma in one post itself... Roland wrote: Ha, Aristo, that little jewel embedded in all that volume: I myself, will eventually become one, I presume. And may we presume from the tone of your paragraph that you will be in the most favorable category of TYPE 2 Aristo responds: From simplicity brevity, lets refer to NRI's as Type 1, Type 2 Type 3 NRI's or NRG's, based on my earlier definitions. I may as well become a Type 1 NRI. Mario is an excellent example of this. He is a die hard American Citizen of Goan/Indian origin, with a very diverse family. He is proud of his new country, and of his Goan heritage too. He has given a number of constructive suggestions for Goans in Goa (whether codswallop or not is a different matter). Who knows, I may even come to Canada, wear a Canadian flag T-shirt, get pissed drunk and shout Canada rocks!. I am not a patriot as I will explain some other time. It is even highly unlikely that I will marry a Goan. But one thing I won't do is blame ALL the Goans in Goa for the mess, especially when I played a role in allowing the mess to continue. Roland wrote: You have a poor understanding of the meaning of the word NRIs, because referring to your remarks about pledging loyalty to their new country of citizenship, one could scarcely call them NRIs which means non-resident INDIANS, while those you speak of are really (to you) foreign citizens. Aristo responds: Terminologies! Technically, Type 1 is a PIO (expats), not an NRI. But NRI PIO are used interchangeably in common language. Roland wrote: Why are all those who are so touchy about the reality of the mess either a) freshly off the boat from Goa (Sunith) or b) would have made a beeline to themselves leave if they were younger and therfore up to the challenge (Cecil) or c) hope to go overseas, contribute to Goa while they are there and return to Goa (Aristo). They immediately and in a knee-jerk manner confuse criticism for 1) disloyalty to Goa 2) non-contribution to Goa (yes they have gone deep into seeing whether such contribution has been made by others or not) or 3) some other secret agenda they can make up to obfuscate the real issue Aristo responds: Roland, we are well aware of the reality of Goa. It is you who is not. If Goa does not conform to your standards or they way you would like to see Goa as you remember it was, remember that there are young people here who have hope and are slowly building a Goa that they want to see. By now, I should have hoped that wisdom would tell you that cultural values change with every generation, and the older generation may not be happy with that of the younger generation. It is a continuous process, and your Grandfather probably said referring to your generation these kids nowadays The same WILL happen with my generation when we see our kids and grand kids go astray. Getting back to the point, are you so blind to see the initiatives taken up by certain individuals to clean up the mess, on Goanet itself? Goa suraj, SGF and GOACAN are a few that you should have seen, even if they may be very impractical, idealistic and misguided at times, but the good intentions and hopes are there. But then you came along to douse their fire. Selma wrote: Ah, the net is such a tool that in one fell swoop and one email, we can pronounce judgment on the entire life and works of another Goan. We can judge that in the entire lifetime of this person all that he has done is write articles and belittle the Goans in Goa. Aristo responds: Selma, the Golden Rule of Morality allows me to make sweeping assumptions about Roland since he made sweeping assumptions about ALL Goans in Goa. Its not like its the Death Penalty in question, is it? Selma wrote: Well, I've known Roland Francis for longer than one email on a Cyber forum. At my last count I think I've know him for seven years and I don't doubt the sincerity of Roland's love for Goa. Nor do I doubt the many times he's reached in his pockets to help fellow Goans be they in Goa or first-time immigrants to Canada. Aristo responds: I have no idea about Roland's contributions/non-contributions to Goa, or his reasons/constraints for leaving Goa. Selma wrote: I wish instead of the expected self-righteous responses that we saw, at least one Goan in Goa had stood up and said, yes, I too am fed-up. Aristo responds: Forgive me if I came accross as self-righteous. Thats your job. To clarify, I have never contributed a dime towards a Goan cause, and I don't recall ever losing a drop of sweat for a Goan cause. But I have also never blamed ALL Goans in Goa for the mess, except once in the case of Talegao, where I blamed those who voted Anatasio Monserrate, for one Chicken and plate of Rice, and their own selfish motives for the mess that he is actively creating. And what is this you say about Goans in Goa not saying
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
Heh heh heh heh. Poor Cecil thought Roland was just another Selma he could beat up on or better still he thought Roland was just another NRI who'd genuflect in awe everytime he appears on Goanet. Little does he know that when Roland does his genflecting he makes sure he's legs are free just incase the person needs a shift kick in the shins. Gilbert, you are right. There is a God afterall. Heh heh heh heh. Selma --- Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now tell me Cecil if Indian laws allow 3 passengers on a two-seater (safety wise, here in the west scooters are deemed one-seaters, but never mind that) and also tell me of how much importance your sons' lives are to you, no matter how many other people do it. Or is it just that you, like everybody else just ignore the laws and expect that a) no accidents will happen to you and b) Goa will somehow become a better place despite you breaking the laws. Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa/ reply to Sunith
Dear Sunith, First of all I don't see an apology for making incorrect statements about me but that's okay, I'm not one to be petty and this is a cyber forum where anyone can make wild accusations and get away with it. Secondly correct me if I'm wrong but Goanet is a forum for all Goans wherever they maybe be based. Were you under the illusion that it was a forum for Goans in Goa only, where they could endlessly talk about how morally superior they are to the rest of the Goans who emigrated to other countries. I believe there is a forum for that. It's called the local tinto. What you may see as denigration may be harsh reality. Changes can be wrought both internally and externally. No doubt when you finish your stint in London, you'll return to Goa and see it with renewed vision. You may even want to implement some of the things you found more efficient and workable in London. Would it be fair and fitting for those in Goa to accuse you of being a traitor to the cause or misguided in your passion to bring forth change? I've always held you in high esteem because I see in Aristo and you all that Goa must become inorder to march ahead into the 21st century. However, one of the hallmarks of intelligence is the ability to treat others with respect, for they may have led long and hard lives and tread where your young feet have yet to venture and felt the stabs of disillusionment which your young soul has yet to encounter. My last word on this post. Selma --- Sunith D Velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Selma and Roland, Goanet is surely not the forum for a person to repeatedly promote the so called advantages they see in emigrating to, growing up and living in Dubai or Canada, nor is it the place to justify their delusions by constanatly denigrating our beloved state. I would be happy to start for all such people a FLEE-Goanet(free of charge!) so Goans on this forum don't have to repeatedly put up with half baked random observations which are an insult to all educated Goan members of this forum trying in their small way to improve their lot. Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa/ reply to Selma
Sunith, I thought that free speech includes making observations about one's total experience. So now you want to throw us out of this forum because we hurt your feelings? Speaks a lot about your idea of democracy doesn't it? Why should I cut off my right to free speech that is civil and non personal just because there are some who are wilting flowers, or flag wavers, or worse still ostriches bent on burying their hands in the sand? The first step to resolution is to shun denial and by that measure it seems there are many miles to go before you can sleep. The way the cards are falling in Goa, forget about my lifetime, the sun is not likely to shine even in yours! Roland. On 11/28/06, Sunith D Velho wrote: Dear Selma and Roland, I don't judge the choices people make nor the reasons for them. If economic circumstance or career development has forced a Goan to seek employment anywhere in the world, it doesn't make them any less Goan than someone living or working in Goa. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Dont Worry Be Happy!
Often I hear these statements made on goanet, mostly by Goans who have left Goa... I for one having left Goa at the age of 17 but still make it Goa every year. I am now working in the gulf and partially settled in Mumbai. So far I have not sold of my house or property. What we see happening now about the so called 'Bhaile's (outsiders) and politicians is not new..it was there 40-50 years ago... and for all this we ourselves have to be blamed. Here below are the lyrics of konkani song of the late Melody King Alfred Rose...'Dont Worry Be Happy'..which says it all... if you are not able to read it...you can hear hear it on mp3. mp3 song available on request. (U can also add yr verse at the end) Dev borem korum Edward Verdes Chinchinim/Mumbai/Jeddah Dont Worry Be Happy...Sung by Alfred Rose. Goaa tum amchem Goemkaramchem, Girestkaien borlelem, Neketr Indiechem Goaa tum amchem apurbaiechem Bhailea lokak faidechem, antam zalaim lokachem Bailo lok Goeam ieun veta, soglem marog zalam mhunntat torui Dont worrie be happy... Baile munis Goeam dondo korta, ami Goemkar tanchem thond poita..torui Dont worrie.be happy Goaa tum amchem Goemkaramchem, Girestkaien borlelem, Neketr Indiechem, Oh oh oh Goaa tum amchem apurbaiechem Bailea lokak faidechem, antam zalam lokachem Golden Goa tuka mhunntat, punn fatlean nanv pirder kortat torui.. Dont worrieee be happy Soro pion pott bor jeutat ani soro marog kela mhunntat..torui Dont worrie be happyy Goaa tum amchem Goemkaramchem, Sukh dadosponn sogleamchem, mankulem Goa amchem Mogachea Goa tum amchem Goemkaranchem Duddvank lagon zalaim tum, dusrea lokachem Goemkar borem nanv zodunk, fattim soronant kitloi duddu moddunk..mhunntat Yea...dont worry be happy Christmas new year paskam kortat, fogotteam porim duddu moddtat..torui dont worrie..ahm dont worrie be happy Kitloi konkani cassetti ietat, marog pasun zalear ghetat..mhunntat Dont worrie be happyy Goaaa bailo lok zaito Goem ieta, zago amche sovai gheta Ho amcho guneanv puta Oh oh Goa sobai tuji pirder zait veta,ami tankam zage vinkta, magir chintun roddta Dont worrie oh oh oh be happy..dont worry be happy dont worry be happy Dont worry be happ... = Below is my compostion... Elissanvam vellar montri ghara ietat, nivddon ietoch amchem pott martat ani mhunntat...don worrie be happy.. You too can join in... Edward.. Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
Hello Selma, I hate engaging in debate on Goanet, preferring instead to be a silent observer. I have observed the KNOW-ALLS on this forum and their much Googled and researched posts. There seems to be a misconception that the person who has the last say in an argument, and it may be full of codswallop and balderash, settles (wins) the debate. How else can you explain posts that add no value but only serve to score points by deflating the egos of the other KNOW-ALLS. I have no intention of winning any debates but this post by Selma, drew me into this and I wish to state a few things to her and the others. Selma writes I wish instead of the expected self-righteous responses that we saw, at least one Goan in Goa had stood up and said, yes, I too am fed-up. I too am fed ,up that after 50 years of independence we don't have an infrastructure that could sustain some sort of industry, that we don't have an education system that earns merit beyond Karwar, that we don't have politicians who can garner respect or serve one term without being embroiled in some dirty scam. I'm fed-up that our youth don't have employment opportunities, that when they leave the house we're not sure they'll return because the roads have claimed so many of their lives. Ok. I stand up. I am fed up. Now, just tell me what am i to do. Where do i go? Dubai or Canada? Do you know any other better place? Most of all I'm fed-up that I don't have hope in my heart for the generations of Goans that will come after me. Instead, all I have to pass onto them is a legacy of hopelessness. I disagree. I live in Goa. I see the sorry state of affairs here. But i will not give up. Why, you ask? Because, as hopeless as you may be, there are others who are hopeful. I trust my generation, I am 23 and I have friends who are aware of the need of the hour for Goa. Its an uphill task, but someone has to do the dirty work. You may have given up, but we wont. Sounds dreamy and far-fetched? Does not matter how it sounds. What matters is to fight and not give up. Yes, strike out at all the Goans who do not live in Goa. Stomp the moral higher ground if it makes you feel better. But at the end of the day, it's your living in denial and apathy that will be Goa's Apocalypse. 1) Goans are not in denial mode. Its too late for that. Some Goans are not in give-up mode either :) 2)No one is striking out at anyone here. Roland made a post on how much Goa sucks and its only fair that fellow Goans say what they feel. From the previous posts, I do not see any malice towards those who do not live in Goa. Remember, Goan in Goa or Goan in Canada or Dubai or USA. Goan after all. Jason. Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Aristo wrote: Aristo responds: Yes, the peace of not doing anything to change the ill's that plague Goa, besides writing articles belittling the Goans in Goa and regarding all of them as following a herd mentality. --- Ah, the net is such a tool that in one fell swoop and one email, we can pronounce judgment on the entire life and works of another Goan. We can judge that in the entire lifetime of this person all that he has done is write articles and belittle the Goans in Goa. Well, I've known Roland Francis for longer than one email on a Cyber forum. At my last count I think I've know him for seven years and I don't doubt the sincerity of Roland's love for Goa. Nor do I doubt the many times he's reached in his pockets to help fellow Goans be they in Goa or first-time immigrants to Canada. If one fine day, he writes some harsh truths, it is the overflowing of frustration in seeing something you love deteriorate. I wish instead of the expected self-righteous responses that we saw, at least one Goan in Goa had stood up and said, yes, I too am fed-up. I too am fed up that after 50 years of independence we don't have an infrastructure that could sustain some sort of industry, that we don't have an education system that earns merit beyond Karwar, that we don't have politicians who can garner respect or serve one term without being embroiled in some dirty scam. I'm fed-up that our youth don't have employment opportunities, that when they leave the house we're not sure they'll return because the roads have claimed so many of their lives. Most of all I'm fed-up that I don't have hope in my heart for the generations of Goans that will come after me. Instead, all I have to pass onto them is a legacy of hopelessness. Yes, strike out at all the Goans who do not live in Goa. Stomp the moral higher ground if it makes you feel better. But at the end of the day, it's your living in denial and apathy that will be Goa's Apocalypse. Selma Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
Cecil, your hollow rebuttal points to my post are just codswallop (thanks for making the word popular on Goanet, Cornel). You have more laws and rules than Canada has. The major difference is you don't implement them! How about this one, from your own article in the Gomantak Times of October 26, 2006 re posted on Goanet: quote Astride my trusted Activa scooter, with Desmond seated behind and Fabian in front, we would do the standard route from Tonca through Panjim to Mala and back, and in the process see every Narkasur in town. unquote. Now tell me Cecil if Indian laws allow 3 passengers on a two-seater (safety wise, here in the west scooters are deemed one-seaters, but never mind that) and also tell me of how much importance your sons' lives are to you, no matter how many other people do it. Or is it just that you, like everybody else just ignore the laws and expect that a) no accidents will happen to you and b) Goa will somehow become a better place despite you breaking the laws. And I wouldn't be surprised from the tone of your reply (seen below) to a serious matter like drinking and driving that you deem that issue inconsequential too (because you didn't drink enough or whatever the rule is in Canada). And by the way I mentioned my cellphone as a means of relaying information to kin, for the medics rescuing me, (or didn't you know it could be used for that?) while you thought of it as an instrument to be used while they take you away. Wouldn't mention this, except that it goes to your line of thinking. Roland. On 11/27/06, Cecil Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roland Francis wrote: Think of it next time you're speaking on your cellphoine while being taken by ambulance away from an accident site because you didn't drink enough, or whatever the rule is in Canada. I hear they have lots of rules for everything. Which may not be a bad thing for people who need rules and can't decide for themselves. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/attachments/20061129/9e05ae2d/attachment.html Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
[Goanet] The Mess that is Goa/ reply to Selma
Dear Selma and Roland, I don't judge the choices people make nor the reasons for them. If economic circumstance or career development has forced a Goan to seek employment anywhere in the world, it doesn't make them any less Goan than someone living or working in Goa. However if they express happiness that they now have nothing to do with Goa and constantly predict doomsday scenarios for resident Goans based on their one week holidays, then I will not stand for it. Goanet is surely not the forum for a person to repeatedly promote the so called advantages they see in emigrating to, growing up and living in Dubai or Canada, nor is it the place to justify their delusions by constanatly denigrating our beloved state. I would be happy to start for all such people a FLEE-Goanet(free of charge!) so Goans on this forum don't have to repeatedly put up with half baked random observations which are an insult to all educated Goan members of this forum trying in their small way to improve their lot. How on earth is Dubai any example of a non-discriminatory society? Of what use to anyone on this forum is the observation that Ambulances are readily available in Canada and not in Goa? Do you think Goans on this forum are not aware of things that are wrong with Goa? Why do some expat-Goans think it is their moral duty to constantly lecture Goans on the so called benefits they enjoy living in the West and how Goans are suffering? Regards Sunith There are few times when I will get absolutely furious and I'm afraid this is going to be one of them. I am getting really sick and tired of constantly being dragged into posts that I have nothing to do with and constantly being misquoted. The second part of your sentence, that I was glad I wasn't raised in Goa was said in the context of caste prejudice. So don't misquote me. Yes, I was glad I was raised in Dubai, where my father gave me the type of life I could never imagine having in Goa, given that my father was born on the wrong sides of the track both in terms of caste and money. Good for you I say, but don't for one moment judge the choices other Goans born into desperate poverty made and make to this day. but there are far more people and circumstances that are proving to be the tidalwave of its misfortune. Perhaps it is time for you to accept the reality of the situation rather than being a sleeping Peter waiting for the cock to crow thrice. Selma Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa/ reply to Sunnith
--- Sunith D Velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Roland, Sometime ago Selma expressed a similar sentiment to yours by saying she was happy not to be born and brought up in Goa, which got me quite bewildered as to how a person who is happy not to have been born, brought up and lived in Goa could proudly claim to be a Goan. -- Dear Sunnith, There are few times when I will get absolutely furious and I'm afraid this is going to be one of them. I am getting really sick and tired of constantly being dragged into posts that I have nothing to do with and constantly being misquoted. I wonder when I said I was glad not to be born in Goa, especially since I was born in Ribander, Goa, India. My mother delivered me on a table, which years later my husband studied on, since the hospital is now an academic institution. The second part of your sentence, that I was glad I wasn't raised in Goa was said in the context of caste prejudice. So don't misquote me. Yes, I was glad I was raised in Dubai, where my father gave me the type of life I could never imagine having in Goa, given that my father was born on the wrong sides of the track both in terms of caste and money. I'm sorry we didn't have the privilege of being to the manor born, of inheriting bhats and living a life that money and power bestows on people like you. Good for you I say, but don't for one moment judge the choices other Goans born into desperate poverty made and make to this day. Now as for Roland's post, I can understand why you and a few others on this board would get all hot under the collar about it. Unfortunately, the truth is Goa is in a state of devolution rather than evolution. There are a few good people working tirelessly to raise it from the cesspool it has managed to sink into, but there are far more people and circumstances that are proving to be the tidalwave of its misfortune. Perhaps it is time for you to accept the reality of the situation rather than being a sleeping Peter waiting for the cock to crow thrice. Selma Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess that is Goa/ reply to Roland
Dear Sunith, A very good and well expressed response. A lot of so called once upon a time Goans like to comment on negative manner but rarely offer any solutions to the problems. They like to be counted as Goan in the society perhaps they live for selfish reaons, with no love at all for Goa. They offer destructive criticism instead of constructive criticism for betterment of Goa. They do not care for Goa a bit. Keep up the good works Tony Fernandes Dubai On 11/27/06, Sunith D Velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Roland, Sometime ago Selma expressed a similar sentiment to yours by saying she was happy not to be born and brought up in Goa, which got me quite bewildered as to how a person who is happy not to have been born, brought up and lived in Goa could proudly claim to be a Goan. A fellow Goa netter who has chosen to settle in Goa after working for many years abroad then emailed me privately to explain that often expat-Goans denigrate Goa on this forum to justify to themselves, that they are better off elsewhere(where they/others don't quite feel like they belong). While I was reluctant to believe it at first I am now beginning to see his point. Allow me to point out some glaring inconsistencies in your post. Roland writes: ?Keep selling your properties for the lure of money that you don't really need. I am glad to have none of it. Sunith responds: Incredibly you follow it up by writing My biggest heartache when I left India was to sell off my mansion? You have done many years ago what you blame Goans for doing today, so obviously you have to blame yourself(in part) for the gloomy picture you claim Goa is today. Roland writes: I made sure that I sold it off, not at the best price I could get, but to receive the satisfaction of having handed it off another Goan, even if he was a Hindu... Sunith responds: This is a very communal statement (the even if he was Hindu part). As you must be aware communalism is one of the banes of Goan society today, thinking such as the above is to blame. Once again you prove yourself no different from the voters and politicians you seek to blame. Roland writes: Now I am at peace. I have finally received closure to my regrets. I am Glad that I live in Canada where everything is so different to Goa. Sunith responds: Do the Canadians have a different concept of closure than the rest of the world? If you so desperately seek closure, why are you on Goanet reminiscing of the wonderful times you had in Goa and in the Goan community through your life? Your posts are to me signs of someone who deep in his heart regrets he will never settle and grow old in his homeland. If you have truly achieved closure you should be on a Canadian forum, discussing the joys of living in Canada with fellow Canadians. I don't see the point of doing that on a Goan forum especially if they are just random thoughts. Please remember that all the comforts in Canada you enjoy, you played no part in creating. They were created by the sweat, toil and turmoil of the generations much before yours. You just entered a well oiled system and are now part of it. Hence it is very easy for you to make the ludicrous comparison between Goa (a developing third world economy) and Canada (an already developed first world economy). There is a continuous process of change going on in Goa that people who spend a few days here that to every few years, will never see. What use to anyone is a post full of tiredly repeated observations with no suggestions whatsoever?? Below is a quote once sent to me by a very widely travelled Goanetter who chose to come back to his homeland from an existence much more comfortable than the one you describe. Regards Sunith Breathes there a man, with soul so dead Who never to himself hath said This is my own, my native land. -Sir Walter Scott Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
Roland wrote: This is what I have to say to them: Keep your money and your dirt. Keep your apathy to what is going around you. Keep voting for the same politicians that rob you and the land blind. Keep on felicitating and fawning over them in Kuwait and elsewhere, wherever they go. Keep selling your properties for the lure of money that you don't really need. I am glad to have none of it. Aristo responds: This is what I have to say to you: Keep your Canadian Dollars and your visa/citizenship. Keep on not contributing to changing the ills you speak about. Keep on donating some of your petty dollars towards some Goan causes to satisfy the guilty complex of you giving up, packing up and fleeing for greener pastures. Keep on justifying to yourself and others on why you fled instead of contributing first hand. Keep on enjoying your end-of-career/retirement years in Canada instead of returning back after making some decent money (which I understand you could not have made in Goa legitimately) and contributing first hand. Keep on complaining about your homeland from your new bird house in Canada. Roland wrote: My biggest heartache when I left India was to sell off my mansion that I custom built from ground up with the dream that I would one day return to Goa from the Gulf to run my own business and live there. At least I made sure that I sold it off, not at the best price I could get, but to receive the satisfaction of having handed it off another Goan, even if he was a Hindu and mine owner. Aristo responds: I am glad that you at least chose the lesser of two evils: The Goan Hindu instead of the Bhaile. Roland wrote: Now I am at peace. I have finally received closure to my regrets. I am glad that I live in Canada where everything is so different to Goa. Aristo responds: Yes, the peace of not doing anything to change the ill's that plague Goa, besides writing articles belittling the Goans in Goa and regarding all of them as following a herd mentality. Roland wrote: I am glad I am not in Goa. Aristo responds: And so am I glad for you. --- Goanetters, I realise that this post may hurt the sentiments of Goan NRI's. I have nothing against NRI's, and I myself will eventually become one, I presume. But as Cecil said earlier, there are 2 kinds of NRI's. I say there are at least 3. There are those that have little loyalty to Goa and have no qualms about that fact, and have pledged their loyalty to their new country of citizenship; there are those who still have a loyalty to Goa, and are elsewhere in order to earn some good money in their professions, because either the profession or the money is not available in Goa, but they contribute in some way or the other and eventually return to their homeland; and there are others who claim to be loyal, but in no way contribute, and on top of that, try to justify why they left detailing all the ills that plague Goa. I take exception to the third kind. I will share more of my thoughts on this touchy subject at a later date, but I am pressed for time at the moment. Cheers, Aristo. On 11/27/06, Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I had not to follow goings-on in Goa ever since I came on Goanet which in turn led me to glance daily at the Goa e-newspapers, I would have been totally oblivious to the mess that is Goa. Once every couple of years I do go to Goa, but not for more than a fortnight at a time. During this time I am too busy visiting relatives or enjoying myself to take an interest in the larger issues. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/attachments/20061127/feed5a45/attachment.html Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
[Goanet] The Mess that is Goa/ reply to Roland
Dear Roland, Sometime ago Selma expressed a similar sentiment to yours by saying she was happy not to be born and brought up in Goa, which got me quite bewildered as to how a person who is happy not to have been born, brought up and lived in Goa could proudly claim to be a Goan. A fellow Goa netter who has chosen to settle in Goa after working for many years abroad then emailed me privately to explain that often expat-Goans denigrate Goa on this forum to justify to themselves, that they are better off elsewhere(where they/others don't quite feel like they belong). While I was reluctant to believe it at first I am now beginning to see his point. Allow me to point out some glaring inconsistencies in your post. Roland writes: ?Keep selling your properties for the lure of money that you don't really need. I am glad to have none of it. Sunith responds: Incredibly you follow it up by writing My biggest heartache when I left India was to sell off my mansion? You have done many years ago what you blame Goans for doing today, so obviously you have to blame yourself(in part) for the gloomy picture you claim Goa is today. Roland writes: I made sure that I sold it off, not at the best price I could get, but to receive the satisfaction of having handed it off another Goan, even if he was a Hindu... Sunith responds: This is a very communal statement (the even if he was Hindu part). As you must be aware communalism is one of the banes of Goan society today, thinking such as the above is to blame. Once again you prove yourself no different from the voters and politicians you seek to blame. Roland writes: Now I am at peace. I have finally received closure to my regrets. I am Glad that I live in Canada where everything is so different to Goa. Sunith responds: Do the Canadians have a different concept of closure than the rest of the world? If you so desperately seek closure, why are you on Goanet reminiscing of the wonderful times you had in Goa and in the Goan community through your life? Your posts are to me signs of someone who deep in his heart regrets he will never settle and grow old in his homeland. If you have truly achieved closure you should be on a Canadian forum, discussing the joys of living in Canada with fellow Canadians. I don't see the point of doing that on a Goan forum especially if they are just random thoughts. Please remember that all the comforts in Canada you enjoy, you played no part in creating. They were created by the sweat, toil and turmoil of the generations much before yours. You just entered a well oiled system and are now part of it. Hence it is very easy for you to make the ludicrous comparison between Goa (a developing third world economy) and Canada (an already developed first world economy). There is a continuous process of change going on in Goa that people who spend a few days here that to every few years, will never see. What use to anyone is a post full of tiredly repeated observations with no suggestions whatsoever?? Below is a quote once sent to me by a very widely travelled Goanetter who chose to come back to his homeland from an existence much more comfortable than the one you describe. Regards Sunith Breathes there a man, with soul so dead Who never to himself hath said This is my own, my native land. -Sir Walter Scott Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
Re: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
Hi Roland Further to your post, I want to say that, I have reflected a lot, with mixed feelings and sometimes with pain in my heart, as to why so many of us Goans have opted to live permanently in Western countries rather than in Goa/India. I concluded a while ago that, what makes us quite at home in the West, more than anything else, is the kind of civic orderlines you so well described. Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goanet goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 1:29 AM Subject: [Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings Goanet supports BMX, the alumni network of Britto's, St Mary's and Xavier's -- three prominent institutions in Mapusa, Goa. Events scheduled from Dec 16 to 21, 2006 For more details visit http://www.bmxgoa.com
[Goanet] The Mess That is Goa - Personal Ramblings
If I had not to follow goings-on in Goa ever since I came on Goanet which in turn led me to glance daily at the Goa e-newspapers, I would have been totally oblivious to the mess that is Goa. Once every couple of years I do go to Goa, but not for more than a fortnight at a time. During this time I am too busy visiting relatives or enjoying myself to take an interest in the larger issues. Thank you Anthony Barretto for exposing the illegal denuding of forests in Canacona and the authorities complicity in it. Thank you Joe Goauk for all the pictures you send on Flicr. I don't think you realize this, but the sight of Goa in pictures disgusts me. I look at them closely and I see a land becoming nothing like what I would have pictured it should have been. Thank you too all the other posters who have opened my eyes to the Goa of today. I know the argument that will come my way. It has been thrown at people like me several times. Oh you dreamers, you guys who would like Goa to remain like what it was when you left it. Goa has progressed and it is the price that has to be paid for progress. Not everybody enjoyed the fruits of the land you speak of. Now it is more democratic, more vibrant, people have more money than ever and there is a buzz that was never there before. This is what I have to say to them: Keep your money and your dirt. Keep your apathy to what is going around you. Keep voting for the same politicians that rob you and the land blind. Keep on felicitating and fawning over them in Kuwait and elsewhere, wherever they go. Keep selling your properties for the lure of money that you don't really need. I am glad to have none of it. My biggest heartache when I left India was to sell off my mansion that I custom built from ground up with the dream that I would one day return to Goa from the Gulf to run my own business and live there. At least I made sure that I sold it off, not at the best price I could get, but to receive the satisfaction of having handed it off another Goan, even if he was a Hindu and mine owner. He assured me his family would live there moving from his own old ancestral house and I was glad to see that is what he did. Now I am at peace. I have finally received closure to my regrets. I am glad that I live in Canada where everything is so different to Goa. Here I have no advantage or disadvantage before the law. I can bribe no-one even if I wanted to. The police will jail me in a heartbeat if I drink more than the minimum and drive. If my car meets with an accident and I lie sprawled on the road, nobody will rob my wallet, my identity and my cellphone. If I get a heart attack or stroke, I can count on the ambulance and paramedics being at my side within 5 minutes. If I build even an insignificant patio extension to my house without municipal permission and their attendant rules governing it, it will get taken down without fuss or delay. And I can vote for a better politician if the current one wastes my tax dollars and can see other voters think and act like me, even if they end up voting for someone else whom they think is better. I am glad that when the press digs up the slightest whiff of scandal or the smallest public transgression of a person in authority, remedial and punitive action is taken forthwith. I am satisfied that even if the judicial process is a little slow, justice is almost always done. I am glad I am not in Goa. Roland Francis ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
