Re: [Goanet] Dev borem Korum - Need word in Konkani
Ixttano, The native Konkani word for beach is vell, a feminine noun in which the sound of e is open. Hence the plural (beaches) is vello (the e is open but the o is closed.) Doryadeg is not an apt synonym. Dorya = sea and deg = margin/border/edge as in kapddadeg = border/margin/edge of a sari. Hence this means sea-coast, which is not necessarily a beach. SamudraKinari does mean beach in Marathi, but not in Konkani. According to Dalgado, the Konkani words samudra/som'dir = sea, ocean and kinari = margin, brink, border, side; hence samudrakinari means seaside (or even seafront) in Konkani. Perhaps this is what prompted Reis Falcao to pose his query, although he did not specify the context. The Portuguese word pao (with a tilde on the a that Goanet does not support), pronounced panv in Konkani and pav in Marathi, is one of the Konkani words for bread. Konkani has many words each of which refers to a specific variety of bread. Panv is used for the baker's loaf; the rustic Saxttikar has his own native term unddo for the same. Other specific terms (which are not synonyms of each other) are bhakri, polli, pollo, sandonn, koilolli, kailolli the list is almost endless. But in European usage bread/pao have wide meanings like, for instance, earning one's bread. In Our Father we say Give us this day our daily bread (ENG) or Pao nosso de cada dia (PORT). But in the translation of this prayer in Doutrina Christam, Fr. Thomas Stephens (an English Jesuit) does not use unddo or panv for bread, since,in the context of the prayer bread stands for food/sustenance; hence unddo would be inappropriate. He used the Konkani word gras instead. But while translating loaves in KristPurann he does use undde. Not only does pau mean quarter in Konkani, but it also means stick in Portuguese! Mog asum. Sebastian Borges On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 Jose Fernandes konk...@gmail.com wrote: *Manestamno,Inglezintlea 'Beaches' hea utrak Konknni utor 'Vello.' 'Doryadego' oxem-i mhonnum yeta.* *Ek Vell (feminine noun) - Don VelloDoryadeg (feminine noun) - DoryadegoMog asum,Jose Salvador Fernandes* On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote: So pao yes, and not pau. Although I wrote pau, I inflect correctly to sound pao, but on a few occasions spelled pau (pau,n). Yet, conveys a paucity of understanding. I did not write in Konkani in India, and also saw the representation of our sounds strangely. It is not my mothers fault. We are removed from Portuguese (of course not all) for sure and that should be fine too, unless one insists to a Portuguese speaker (any) to settle pao, and worse pau instead of p?o, when said speaker in functioning/speaking in Portuguese, as opposed to in Konkani (pao). On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 Domnic Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com wrote: I think the word pau in Konkani means quarter, example: pau-xer (quarter litre), and the Portuguese word for bread is p?o though some write it as pao, which is fine. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you. On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o drferdina...@hotmail.com wrote: Is all seaside / seafront a beach? Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o. On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 Dr. J. Colaco cola...@gmail.com wrote: Assuming that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi, SamudraKinare (Sea side) looks like a good translation, IF, on the other hand, Konkani is a living language, then I suggest we use the word used by our mothers jc Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem Korum - Need word in Konkani
*Manestamno,Inglezintlea 'Beaches' hea utrak Konknni utor 'Vello.' 'Doryadego' oxem-i mhonnum yeta.* *Ek Vell (feminine noun) - Don VelloDoryadeg (feminine noun) - DoryadegoMog asum,Jose Salvador Fernandes* On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:35 AM, rosarioabel fernandes rosarioa...@gmail.com wrote: [image: Boxbe] https://www.boxbe.com/overview This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (rosarioa...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule https://www.boxbe.com/popup?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxbe.com%2Fcleanup%3Ftoken%3DMfCiLaGjEyrWMcXo%252FHXl63rzSgpg6NyW7aAkF0poPDccWfHd9Du4yac6APEge7%252BibZga5giQdxVPWSpxIwRbui4h86S9v9PjgM%252FnFiC8X0o6BA5U4rMapTlVWDGgtrWgmLRCrwup0tEHbhTJu91aVQ%253D%253D%26key%3DXfmS23DE2xRh6nBOyw0npZmffQOs%252FSt9sZhReQ0y7UM%253Dtc_serial=18931361971tc_rand=1782316169utm_source=stfutm_medium=emailutm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADDutm_content=001 | More info http://blog.boxbe.com/general/boxbe-automatic-cleanup?tc_serial=18931361971tc_rand=1782316169utm_source=stfutm_medium=emailutm_campaign=ANNO_CLEANUP_ADDutm_content=001 I am grateful for the kind and favourable response given. It was great help in moving forward with my work Dev Borem Korum
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum - Need a word in Konkani
+ Also no reason for us not to use/also use Obrigado. Absolutely none although many will disagree. I do when in Goa. Worse some will come up with inane notions like its the Language of the conqueror! But observe closely and one gets a sense of the forked tongues + + + Also See archived in the PAST on Goanet at: https://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg59385.html https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=from:%22Domnic+Fernandes%22Domnic Fernandes https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=from:%22Domnic+Fernandes%22 Sat, 06 Mar 2010 18:30:31 -0800 https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=date:20100306 : Prior to 1510, Goa was governed by different rulers, including Muslims. The Portuguese took over Goa from the Muslims. Islam uses the word https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=from:%22Domnic+Fernandes%22'Allah' (God) quite frequently. They, too, invoke God's name while https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=from:%22Domnic+Fernandes%22thanking - 'Barak Allah-hu fik'. So, it's possible that we inherited https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=from:%22Domnic+Fernandes%22'Dev Borem korum' from our previous occupiers, the Muslims. https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=from:%22Domnic+Fernandes%22 https://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg58982.html Domnic Fernandes https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=from:%22Domnic+Fernandes%22 Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:41:16 -0800 https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=goanet@lists.goanet.orgq=date:20100307 : Per my observation, the Bardezkar say Dev borem korum, whereas the Saxttikar say Bor(em) zaum. Dominic also mentioned Faleiro's usage: Borem zaum, Sebastian Borges: Bore..m zaum, Bab zaum May you prosper, may you beget a baby boy. On 7 March 2010 20:20, Antonio Menezes point is commented upon by Borges at https://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg59101.html note that unlike a ''thank you'' the ''Dev borem korun'' has no quid pro quo attached to it. . Venantius On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com wrote: Mr. Rosario Abel Fernandes (Oct 13) was thanking Goanetters for their response to his query on veller/beach but I think we Goans need a new word in Konkani for Dev Borem Korum (DBK)/Thank You/Obrigado DBK(Tuka Devan Borem Korum ) vaguely means let God (a third party ) be good to you for any favour done but there is no element of quid pro quo in in it as is evident in Thank You /Obrigado. -- + Venantius J Pinto
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Dhin'vastam, Dhanyavad to Dhonyavd.* From my earlier post: dhin'vastam/ dinvas(tam), grateful, appreciative, thankful; Dinvas(i) is the one (upkari) who is thanking/ conveying gratitude, as in Hanv tuzo upkari; tuje upkar mantam. Also: dhi/dhinv, to delight. nourish, satiate. dhin' vastam; dhin, perception. +++ *Dhonyavad from Dhanyavad, dhanyavAda m. praise, thanksgiving, give applause. vad, vAd, vAD, to utter. Dhan means wealth, money, riches, fortune. It appears as a prefix as in, Dhangar (shepherd, Shepherd), Dhandevata (Mammon), dhanko (wealthy, girest Konk), dhandhanya (dhanya = grains, seeds, corn, etc), and Dhanapati (pati / poti = Lord, master, husband, as also leader). Wealth in those days was livestock as well as grains. dhan appears as a prefix in other . Dhonyavad has to have its origin in the dhan/daulat of Dhanapati, the Lord of wealth aka Kubera (God of the Fields). In the Christian sense perhaps the materialistic wealth/ materialistic success, aspect was blunted. I surmise Dhanya was given a connotation (to mean all things coming from a specific bounty/things bountiful/the horn of plenty --- graces, blessings, success, and including to cover all bases, the fount of all our materialistic aspirations) and added vad(a)/ 1. a path, a choice (to move in grace), a way (seeking help), 2. wisdom (ved(a)vada); theory. It is a word that reaffirms one being. Unlike thank you, it configures your relationship in the spiritual sense. To conclude, Dhan(a)pati: pati/poti is ones lord, master, a leader, a husband--not only in the earthly married sense, but one who husbands resources as in a higher power. Dhonya+vad. + In the past we heard women say something on the lines of, Mozo poti ani mozo soglo to. (My Lord and my all). This even when said in English was not meant lightly, and I know one woman who was so exuberant when she said to me pre-marriage what her to-be husband would mean to her. pati (husband), apatitA (to be without husband, be in a state without a husband). venantius j pinto
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Hi MD, You mentioned: I have only these couplets. I think this epic is published lately in Marathi in Mumbai. ++ It recently came out. That book, Kristhapurana is put out by Nelson Falcao, SDB; a Salesian. I have my copies in India. One of which I intend to use for a visual books project I have in mind. Directly painting on the text, punching out areas, etc. Anyway. Its about Rs, 1000 I believe. You may contact Nelson at nelson falcao nelfal...@hotmail.com, or try Tej Prasarini. In fact I feel you guys could put together a function and invite Fr. Falcao to talk along with other Konknnis--Goans, Maharshtrians et all. I say this in the interest of language. venantius j pinto
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Dear MD,
MD said: I may be wrong, would appreciate responses.
vjp: Dear MD, you are being very gracious.
++
MD: 'Haum dinvastan' (if this means I thank, one has to indicate who one
thanks.
vjp: True when used in speech. In the case of learning conjugation perhaps
not so.
Interesting to know that that Dev borerm korun, is used cheers in the South
when imbibing drinks.
++
MD: I do not know what is hell known as, but we call 'yemkond' in the
South.
vjp: Hell in Konknni is narak, the GSBs use naraka and naraku, yemkond, and
ifern. Yemkond, Yama cho kund.
I grew up hearing ifern, although we did not speak Portuguese at home.
Remember the feast of Narkasur(a), [Narak(asur)a], ashura.
++
MD: ('Besaum di' in olden days, children used to ask for blessing of
adults after the daily night 'Rosary', while adults would great each
other, 'dev bori raath divn', mostly if a guest was present).
vjp: Still happens with my mother, and in maternal home in Batim, Goa,
although it is now somewhat automatic and a bit somnabulistic.
++
MD: God comes to our minds, mostly when we are in distress!!
Then we plead: Deva maka/amkam paav' Deva amkam raakon vhor, Deva maka
hya vignanthlem sambaav' =sambaL=sambalo-Hindi?)
vjp: vignanthlem. vign(anth)lem. Vign(esh)war (Ganesh, Ganapati)
sambaav ---sam is a prefix that joins with baav (bhav, bhaL). Bhav would be
an attitude as in bhava/ s; Hanuman to Ram, beloved to lover, mother to
child, etc .
sam is to be with, together, Take me/regard me (worthy) into your bliss.
Affect me into your blissfulness. The fears and pains to be takes away --
the mind to be set light!
Of course there is as you mentioned, sambaL, to take care
++
MD: Is the greeting 'vondia or bondia' still prevelant in Goa? and has it
been derived from 'vandan'?
vjp: Vandan is a nuanced word. Sanskrit. To Hail and then offer prayers,
with reverence.
It is to love without reason. Love for its own sake. In this you are
worshiping the divine in a human.
I cannot say with any deal of certainly that 'vondia or bondia' is derived
from vandan, other than they appear to countervail each other. SOMEONE
PLEASE HELP.
It seems to be von + dia (dis). von is perhaps a disambiguation. Good
day. Further, bondia (bon + dia). Bom dia (good day). Borro dis diun.
++
There used to be a hymn 'Vandan tuka Somiya here somiya is somi jezu
christ, or swami yesu Khrist. Even the Muslim names Ibarham,
sulaiman' comes from Abraham, Solomon' etc.
'devasthan' we call 'divL' Hindu Temple' while 'devaL' denotes church.
'Deva maka paav' Deva amchi kakut kor' Deva maka boxi or 'saiba bogos'
somiya maka boxi' devak argam, vakhaNNi tukaa Krista' 'tuns
'Parameshwar'(You are supreme),
vjp: Thanks for putting this out.
Vandan is to give salutations. Vande mataram.
Suleiman directly corresponds to Soloman in meaning with various spellings
(certainly obvious in when Roman script is used for different languages) and
phonetics.
Sulaiman, Suleman, etc.
Parameshwar. Remember the Indian PARAM supercomputer, which was developed
after Indian was denied the Cray XMP, YMP if I am not mistaken?
Incidentally, Iraq got to have one or two perhaps.
parampara, High tradition.
++
'devasthan' we call 'divL' Hindu Temple' while 'devaL' denotes church.
vjp:
++
What is the meaning of the word 'nirop'?
vjp: nirop, would be to convey a message, intimate (gomoi), announcement /
communication something specific to someone.
Nirop dhaddlo, nirop di tenkam, dar tenkam.
I knew a few meanings, now know more on account of your asking.
1. message, permission; communication
2. farewell, parting; valediction
(Borkar, Thali, Ghanekar)
++
MD: Also, any one has lyrics for 'vollar' pandu Lampiyaum'
vjp: I along with our Dear Goans will do our best to track them for you.
++
I must add that your sense of phonetics is awesome. I learn as I go and lets
just say that I am fairly decent in certain areas. My interests stem from
getting a better grip on our consciousness. For all I know you may be a
lexicographer, a philologist, but thanks for sharing. I do what I can and
try to learn what I must for reasons to do with my being.
venantius j pinto
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:49:46 -0700
From: MD mmdme...@gmail.com
To: goanet@lists.goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Subject: Re: Dev borem korum
Message-ID:
acf0f4441003210349s4d4698bevb150c952465...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Mr. Pinto, I find this fascinating. Hence my response:
'Haum dinvastan' (if this means I thank, one has to indicate who one
thanks. Hence, it will be: Haum or ami tuka 'dinvastam = I or we
thand you (In religious contect, is it or I, we, praise you, worship
you?)
Havem or Ami Dinvasunk favo + we ought to thank?
Haum thuka dinvastolon/ami thuka dinvastelyaum =
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Maurice Bab, The Hymn is available on my blog under Konkani Devotional/Religious songs No. 8.. 'Bhajan' by chitra from the audio CD 'Krist Rai Raiancho Rai' by Ivor D'cunha. Also Lyrics of ' Pandu Lampianv' by H.Britton is under H.Britton songs.. check it out http://edskantaram.blogspot.com/ Dev Borem Korum Edward Verdes On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 1:49 PM, MD mmdme...@gmail.com wrote: Mr. Pinto, I find this fascinating. Hence my response: There used to be a hymn 'Vandan tuka Somiya here somiya is somi jezu christ, or swami yesu Khrist. What is the meaning of the word 'nirop'? Also, any one has lyrics for 'vollar' pandu Lampiyaum' I may be wrong, would appreciate responses. MD
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Dear MD, Just heard from Eddie Verdes of Edskantaram, http://edskantaram.blogspot.com/2009/04/relatives-names-in-konkani-azo-great.html To the right under H. Britton Songs, the third song is Pandu Lampiavhttp://hbrittonsongs.blogspot.com/. Did you mean Valoracho (dhonddo) instead of 'vollar'? Thanks Eddie. This could be it. venantius j pinto MD: Also, any one has lyrics for 'vollar' pandu Lampiyaum' vjp: I along with our Dear Goans will do our best to track them for you.
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Dear MD, Here is my more direct attempt at sambaav and sambhaL. I should have done so in the first place. Others can form their opinions. . sambaav (sambhav) = saam has to do with an element of friendship, being together, baav (bhav) = being. I do not feel this has to do with brotherliness. So sambaav, would have to do with---asking for consideration towards oneself. My earlier explanation still holds as in there we are seeing bhava as attitude, so shades of bhava would change according to the nature of the sambaav. sambaL = care. protection venantius j pinto From: Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum MD: God comes to our minds, mostly when we are in distress!! Then we plead: Deva maka/amkam paav' Deva amkam raakon vhor, Deva maka hya vignanthlem sambaav' =sambaL=sambalo-Hindi?) vjp: vignanthlem. vign(anth)lem. Vign(esh)war (Ganesh, Ganapati) sambaav ---sam is a prefix that joins with baav (bhav, bhaL). Bhav would be an attitude as in bhava/ s; Hanuman to Ram, beloved to lover, mother to child, etc . sam is to be with, together, Take me/regard me (worthy) into your bliss. Affect me into your blissfulness. The fears and pains to be takes away -- the mind to be set light! Of course there is as you mentioned, sambaL, to take care ++
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Goans all, When I posed the Dev borem korum query in my misspell Konknni---it had to do purely with an an interest in hearing what well meaning Goans had to say; and to get people involved in finding out something generally taken for granted. My concerns always have something to do with religion, sexuality and in consciousness, as in this case. There are various words and constructions in most given languages which express similar ideas, yet they also convey who we are and where we stand. Accordingly one decides whether to use particular word, a specific phrase, or not. Many languages make use of loan words, whether recent, or having been absorbed over the centuries. And in many situations one does not have to be a borrower if one decides against using them. Back to Dev borem korun. To me the circle got completed by various strands of though referring directly as also alluding to God---one of which being, via dinvastam among other expressions. It may not automatically be a Christian sense of God, as one would believe, but to my mind a sense of God taken from our heritage, lineage and forebears---an evident desire to attempt a centered existence in belief of a higher power. Anyway people, take a look at the following deduction--my conjecture IN NO WAY ATTEMPTS to supplants or set aside all else on the topic presented so far, and what may still follow. So in good faith and awareness, as well as having reflected upon the responses of fellow Goans, here is my humble offering. + Din(dhin')[1a] is day. Dinkar [1b], sun (surya). Dinkara/Dinkar (Surya) Div, also day in Sanskrit. Div(akara).divakara (Sun who renders the day...dis dita to. Dis, Konknni; Divas, Marathi) vas[2] is an Indo-Eurpean (proto IE) root, to shine / (awareness). Essentially affirming being, awareness. Dhin'vas, grateful, appreciative, thankful; dhin'vas(i) is the one (upkari) who is thanking/ conveying gratitude, as in Hanv tuzo upkari; tuje upkar mantam. tam[3], is a verb ending. 1+2+3 = Din(dhin')+vas+tam = dhin'vastam Dinvas is a Regular verb on account of it maintaining the stem (dinvas) across all tenses. Conjugation of dhin'vas below. PLEASE CORRECT if I am in error. Present Tense, Indicative Mood (essentially, to state) ::: Present Imperfect hanv (I) dhin'vastam ::: hanv dhin'vastalom (m), hanv dhin'vastalim (f), hanv dhin'vatalem (n) tum (thou, you) dhin'vastai ::: tum dhin'vastaloi, tum dhin'vastalii (f), tum dhin'vastalei (n) to (he), ti (she), tem(it) dhin'vasta ::: to dhin'vastalo (m), ti dhin'vastali (f), tem dhin'vastalem (n), Plural ami (we) dhin'vastanv ::: ami dhin'vastaleanv (m, f, n) tumi (you) dhin'vastat ::: tumi dhin'vastaleat (m, f, n) te (they, m), teo (they, f), tim (they) dhin'vastat ::: te dhin'vastalet (m), teo dhin'vastaleot (f), tim dhin'vastalint (n) One more thing: I must add that it would have been immense pleasing if Hindu Goanetters (even if they be/are cultural Hindus) had taken part in our musings. Perhaps some other time---in Konknni or even in some other language. venantius j pinto
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Dear friends, Many thanks for your several responses which only go to prove the point that I wanted to make: that Konkani has many words and expressions for expressing gratitude without expressly invoking God and that the hackneyed expression can sometimes go to ridiculous limits like if we were to say Dev borem korum, Deva! Expressions like din'vastam, upkar man'tam, abhar man'tam, borem zaum have been there since before the arrival of the Portuguese. These are found in the 16-17th century literature in which argam ditam is also used but only for God and saints. Then, how did Dev come in? I think it was introduced by the Padres. At first they translated bom dia, boa tarde and boa noite for which Konkani did not have equivalents in vogue. God is not an explicit part of these Portuguese expressions, but is implied in the sense (may God give you a) Good Day etc. So God was explicitly inserted into the Konkani equivalents, because the literal translation Boro Dis! might not have conveyed the exact sense of the Portuguese greeting. That the source is Portuguese can be judged from the fact that we do not have the Konkani equivalent of the English Good afternoon. Having done this, they took up the equivalent of obrigado or muito obrigado wherein God is not even implied. The Konkani equivalent was (tujem) Borem zaum. Here borem is a noun and hence means good in the sense of welfare. Therefore, here too, God is implied. Hence Dev (tujem) borem korum. In the course of time, this has become Tuka Dev borem korum which is not exactly the same thing. It is worse when 'muito obrigado is translated as tuka chodd Dev borem korum and muitissimo obrigado as tuka choddant chodd Dev borem korum. Grammatically, the correct forms should be tuka Dev(an) chodd borem korum and tuka Dev(an) choddant chodd borem korum because the adjective applies to 'borem' and not to 'Dev.' And now our Konklish Goans have turned Bore...m zaum into Tenkyu aaam! We also often hear from a platform: Hanv tumkam Dev borem korum mhonnttam which is akin to saying I say Thank you to you. According to Msgr. Dalgado 'dhin'vas' comes from the Sanskrit 'dhonyovad.' (One of the meanings of this would be 'I say that I am blessed.') Among the European expressions, I find that the Portuguese 'muito obrigado' comes closest to this in meaning. How does 'dhonyovad' convert to 'dhin'vas'? There are some patterns (laws) in the ethymological evolution of a Konkani word. Any borrowed long word (whether from Sanskrit or Portuguese) automatically shortens on the Konkani tongue. The Sanskrit 'dhonyovad' being masculine would first become 'dhonyovadu' in Konkani the syllables 'dho' and 'va' being accented. The accented syllables generally survive. Therefore quadrisyllabic dho-nyo-va-du gets converted to a trisyllabic dhon'-va-du. From here 'dhon' became 'dhin' and 'vadu' became 'vas'. Please note that the Sanskrit 'gnean' and 'grahok' have become 'ginean' and 'girak' respectively in Konkani. Meaningful discussion from knowledgeable persons would be most elucidating and welcome. Mog asum. Sebastian borges On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote: Finally, philology on Goanet, yet I will sit this one out a bit. But I like your spirit FN. Tread gently, gotcha could turn into gotchi (not of the Shakuntale kind though). : ). venantus Gotcha! What say, Prof. Borges? FN PS: What is the precise connotation of dinvastam? Origins of the word? On 16 March 2010 21:08, Domnic Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com wrote: Generally, we would say: ?Dhoniam Deva Tuka dinvastam. Moi-mogan, -- Frederick Noronha * Goa,1556 (alt.publishers) P +91-832-2409490 M +91-9822122436 Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Mannest Sebastian-bab, ani sogle supraprim Konknni borovpi ani premi, Veg vegle Konknni borovpeanche supraprim (eloquent) Konknni vachun mon mirouta. Tunvem vincharlam, I have a serious problem. How do I say Thank you, God1 in Konkani? Please help. Hya vishayar dulobh uzvadd ghalunk hanv bhov khalto---pun ek vinayi prayatna mhojea khandyar getam (khuxalkaen). Tor, hanvem khala Konkanint mandlam toxem zaunk shakta? II Deva, tujem borem zaum l Tujem borem zaum Deva l Tujem borem zaum O Deva II II Deva, tuzo upkar mantam l Tuzo upkar mantam Deva II II Deva, tujea paripurnain dil'lo upkar mantam l Tumchean paripurnain dil'lo upkar mantam, O Deva II ++ Ani somoz amim diannishttean (ecstatically) Jesuchi zoizoi korunk aasheta, tor Bapa Sor Podvedar Devasovem Taka (Jesuk) argam/bhett diunk shakta. Tor maca dista oxeam mhunnonk zata: Deva, Dev Bapa borem korun. (God [the son Jesus], May God the Father do well by Thee) BUT OF COURSE!! Deva, Sor Podvedar Deva Bapan borem korum (tujea thain). (God [the son Jesus], May God the Father Almighty do well by Thee) Sor Podvedar Deva Bapan, Deva tujem borem korum. (May God the Father Almighty do well by Thee, O Lord [God the Son, Jesus, Son]) *Voirlem chintop ani mandop, tim utram**---ugdas ailim **burgeponan** zoxem amcam ghara (Bombaim xaran) xinkoilelem. Tya vorvim hem mhojem thoddem borovp ghoddlem. Monant riglole adle lahan mund disson yeta khala. * 1. Bap, Put ani Spirit Sanctus/Spiritu Paraklit, (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit/Paraclete) 2. Bap, Put ani Povitr Otmo, (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost) 3. Deva Bapa (ani) Putra (ani) Povitr Otmo (God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) Aikonk anvdetam, tumchi hya vishayar sozmonim assa zalear. venantius j pinto From: Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum Message-ID: 963430.59788...@web113302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear friends, I have a serious problem. How do I say Thank you, God1 in Konkani? Please help. Mog asum. Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
I have heard people saying argam tuka Deva. Will that do? I think there are different ways of addressing. May think over it. All the best. Richard Cabral Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear friends, I have a serious problem. How do I say Thank you, God1 in Konkani? Please help. Mog asum. Sebastian Borges On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: You mean it's a blank cheque issued on someone else's account :-) FN On 7 March 2010 20:20, Antonio Menezes note that unlike a ''thank you'' the ''Dev borem korun'' has no quid pro quo attached to it. Sebastian Borges Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Dear friends, I have a serious problem. How do I say Thank you, God1 in Konkani? Please help. Mog asum. Sebastian Borges On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: You mean it's a blank cheque issued on someone else's account :-) FN On 7 March 2010 20:20, Antonio Menezes note that unlike a ''thank you'' the ''Dev borem korun'' has no quid pro quo attached to it. Sebastian Borges Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
Dear Selma, Thank you for that bit of digging into the etymology of good, which, as far as I can recall, neither I nor anybody else in this discussion claimed was derived from God. Still, the Oxford English Dictionary, in its various manifestations, is certainly a great resource. It tracked the first use of one particular term to 1285? We weren't even alive then! Regards, Victor --- On Mon, 3/8/10, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 12:41 PM The ethmology of the word Good is not God as we understand the word. The ethomology of morning is morewen. Good morning is not exactly derived from May God give you a good morning. It is an expression of its own accord from Gode morewen, for the olde English word good. I could be wrong of course. best, selma good (adj.) O.E. god (with a long o) having the right or desirable quality, from P.Gmc. *gothaz (cf. O.N. goðr, Du. goed, Ger. gut, Goth. goþs), originally fit, adequate, belonging together, from PIE base *ghedh- to unite, be associated, suitable (cf. O.C.S. godu pleasing time, Rus. godnyi fit, suitable, O.E. gædrian to gather, to take up together). Irregular comparatives (better, best) reflect a widespread pattern, cf. L. bonus, melior, optimus. First record of good day is from c.1205. Goods property first recorded c.1280, but singular in the same sense was in O.E. The good neighbours is Scot. euphemism for the fairies (1588). Good-for-nothing is from 1711; good-looking is from 1780; good-natured first recorded 1577. Good sport is from 1917; good to go is attested from 1989. mid-13c., morn, morewen (see morn) + suffix -ing, on pattern of evening. Originally the time just before sunrise. Morning after hangover is from 1884; as a type of contraception, attested from 1867. Morning sickness first recorded 1879 (O.E. had morgenwlætung). Morning glory is from 1814, in reference to the time the flowers open. Morning star Venus in the east before sunrise is from 1530s (O.E. had morgensteorra).
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum
Dear Selma, The original phrase, in 895 A.D*. and thereafter, was Godd gibb thee a gode morwene, which was eventually shortened through lip laziness to gode morwene. How do I know this? I was there... Regards, Victor *Or it might even have been in 896 A.D. Or 897. My memory is getting weaker as I age! --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Subject: [Goanet] Dev borem korum To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 10:52 AM Dear Victor, This is what you wrote: In England centuries ago it used to be God give you a good morning - I correct my earlier assertion that God and Good do not have a common ethmology. They may have. But the phrase itself was gode morwene and not God give you a good morning. You do see how this like Goan and Goanese. :-) I aim to please. warm regards, Selma
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
May I also point to two other expressions that we oldsters used to routinely exchange, whether as adults or as children, whenever we passed another person in the street, even total strangers: Deo boro dis dium. Deo bori rat dium. And the immediate answer naturally was, Tukai dium! In England centuries ago it used to be God give you a good morning and God give you a good night, telescoped into today's Good morning and Good night. Apparently padri bas was dominant in England as well as in Goa. Regards to all, Victor --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: From: Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 1:50 PM Very interesting! Do the experiences of others bear out what Domnic suggests? Also, is Padri Bhas more prevalent in Bardez ... or is the Padri Bhas dialect of Konkani a mix of Bardeshi and Sanskrit terminology (needed to express theological constructs which are often absent from the spoken language)? Just speculating here... Dr W. R da Silva, ironically himself a priest and learned sociologist besides being a linguist, was the guy who introduced me to the concept of the dominant dialects of Padri Bhas-Bamonn Bhas in Konkani :-) FN On 7 March 2010 20:07, Domnic Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com wrote: Per my observation, the Bardezkar say Dev borem korum, whereas the Saxttikar say Bor(em) zaum. -- Frederick Noronha Columnist :: journalism :: editing :: alt.publishing :: photography :: blogging P +91-832-2409490 M +91-9822122436 A:784 Saligao 403511 Goa India Please add a 'signature' below your email. Makes it easy when someone wants to contact you!
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
On 8 March 2010 15:05, Victor Rangel-Ribeiro vrangel...@yahoo.com wrote: Apparently padri bas was dominant in England as well as in Goa. More accurately, it would/should have been calledl pastor-bas :-) FN
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
So true Victor. i was brought up to say and respond exactly in the manner you shared. Your point about addressing strangers is very significant. Aside that, I still automatically remember it each morning in my head. In many ways I feel that my being has turned this into a lived aesthetic as I walk the streets of NY acknowledging strangers/people. This may sound funny, but from time-to-time I speak in our Mai Bhas, Marathi, etc., even a few words of Japanese with her and although she responds very sparingly on occasion---its mostly one way. Of late it has been Urdu, which I am working hard at picking up in chunks, beyond basics---to help CC out since she needs to be able to converse in it at a reasonably level in it. venantius From: Victor Rangel-Ribeiro vrangel...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum May I also point to two other expressions that we oldsters used to routinely exchange, whether as adults or as children,?whenever we passed another person in the street, even total strangers: Deo boro dis dium. Deo bori rat dium. And the immediate answer naturally was, Tukai dium! (del) Regards to all, Victor
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
The ethmology of the word Good is not God as we understand the word. The ethomology of morning is morewen. Good morning is not exactly derived from May God give you a good morning. It is an expression of its own accord from Gode morewen, for the olde English word good. I could be wrong of course. best, selma good (adj.) O.E. god (with a long o) having the right or desirable quality, from P.Gmc. *gothaz (cf. O.N. goðr, Du. goed, Ger. gut, Goth. goþs), originally fit, adequate, belonging together, from PIE base *ghedh- to unite, be associated, suitable (cf. O.C.S. godu pleasing time, Rus. godnyi fit, suitable, O.E. gædrian to gather, to take up together). Irregular comparatives (better, best) reflect a widespread pattern, cf. L. bonus, melior, optimus. First record of good day is from c.1205. Goods property first recorded c.1280, but singular in the same sense was in O.E. The good neighbours is Scot. euphemism for the fairies (1588). Good-for-nothing is from 1711; good-looking is from 1780; good-natured first recorded 1577. Good sport is from 1917; good to go is attested from 1989. mid-13c., morn, morewen (see morn) + suffix -ing, on pattern of evening. Originally the time just before sunrise. Morning after hangover is from 1884; as a type of contraception, attested from 1867. Morning sickness first recorded 1879 (O.E. had morgenwlætung). Morning glory is from 1814, in reference to the time the flowers open. Morning star Venus in the east before sunrise is from 1530s (O.E. had morgensteorra).
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
On 8 March 2010 16:59, Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote: So true Victor. i was brought up to say and respond exactly in the manner you shared. Your point about addressing strangers is very significant. Aside that, I still automatically remember it each morning in my head. In many ways I feel that my being has turned this into a lived aesthetic as I walk the streets of NY acknowledging strangers/people. This may sound funny, but from time-to-time I speak in our Mai Bhas, Marathi, etc., even a few words of Japanese with her and although she responds very sparingly on occasion---its mostly one way. Of late it has been Urdu, which I am working hard at picking up in chunks, beyond basics---to help CC out since she needs to be able to converse in it at a reasonably level in it. venantius RESPONSE: For the sake of good order, this salutation was covered way back some years ago; Mr. Kevin Saldanha, who was then a subscriber, in an active sense, on Goanet, had questioned the salutation. His gripe was whether there was not other proper salutation without bringing 'God' into it. Quite understandable since Mr. Saldanha, had decided that once we die we are yesterdays, steak! Mr. Saldanha was a knights of Colombo member; woke up one day and saw the light now he only goes to Church, on occasion, to humour his family? Mr. Kevin Saldanha is more than welcome to give his stance on this! -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes.
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
A serious attempt, as any, to get Sir Knight Kevin Saldanha to comment. I doubt he'll fall for the bait :-) Meanwhile, Colombo (the capital of Sri Lanka, among other possibilities) isn't the same as organisation named after Christopher Columbus. Alfredo D'Mello of Uruguay should know more; he wrote an entire book on Colon (aka Columbus). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Columbus FN On 9 March 2010 03:45, Gabe Menezes gabe.mene...@gmail.com wrote: Mr. Saldanha was a knights of Colombo member; woke up one day and saw the light now he only goes to Church, on occasion, to humour his family? Mr. Kevin Saldanha is more than welcome to give his stance on this!
Re: [Goanet] Dev Borem Korum
Very interesting! Do the experiences of others bear out what Domnic suggests? Also, is Padri Bhas more prevalent in Bardez ... or is the Padri Bhas dialect of Konkani a mix of Bardeshi and Sanskrit terminology (needed to express theological constructs which are often absent from the spoken language)? Just speculating here... Dr W. R da Silva, ironically himself a priest and learned sociologist besides being a linguist, was the guy who introduced me to the concept of the dominant dialects of Padri Bhas-Bamonn Bhas in Konkani :-) FN On 7 March 2010 20:07, Domnic Fernandes domval...@hotmail.com wrote: Per my observation, the Bardezkar say Dev borem korum, whereas the Saxttikar say Bor(em) zaum. -- Frederick Noronha Columnist :: journalism :: editing :: alt.publishing :: photography :: blogging P +91-832-2409490 M +91-9822122436 A:784 Saligao 403511 Goa India Please add a 'signature' below your email. Makes it easy when someone wants to contact you!
Re: [Goanet] Dev borem korum... to our politicians (Derek Almeida/Gomantak Times)
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- Follow the online presence of the Museum of Christian Art, Old Goa Contacts: Tel: +91 832 2285299 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://christianartmuseum.goa-india.org/ --- What a fine piece of metaphoric writing by Derek ! A fine piece of writing, indeed !!
