[go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[jake...@gmail.com]

This thread seems like it has devolved into a rehashing of the recent Generics, 
please go away! thread 
. 
This seems unfair to the original poster, who asked a simple , respectful, 
question in good faith, and seems to be satisfied with the answers he got. 
This tread is now so devolved that it would be hard for him to even ask a 
followup. I would respectfully suggest that those wanting to rehash the 
generic debate please continue on the  Generics, please go away! thread 
. 

[I will no longer be following this thread]

- Jake

On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 10:30:49 AM UTC-5 alex-coder wrote:

> Hello again, 
> I apologize for being so intrusive. 
> Where it is possible to read about the evaluations of labor and complexity 
> for 
> GO itself for different implementations to introduce generic in GO ?
>
> Thank you.
>

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[go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[wilk]

On 16-03-2021, Robert Engels wrote:

> Very well said.=20

+1

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[go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[wilk]

On 15-03-2021, Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 3:11 PM atd...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
>>
>> I am in favor of the proposal but I think that accounting for popularity 
>> votes is not a good measure of things.
>> A lot of people are at various stages of their technical journey in computer 
>> science and engineering and there has to be a weight given to the more 
>> technical opinions that is not reflected in the github upvote/downvote 
>> system.
>> At one point, everyone would have upvoted that the earth was flat.
>>
>> Just a note in passing :)
>
> Yes. 

Please don't fall into the trap !

You're truly impressive how you have been so attentive to all the
critics. Keep it !

I believe we've all learned a lot since one decade of discussion about
this.

Thanks

> I am not saying that the proposal was adopted because it had
> good support.  I am arguing against the suggestion that the proposal
> should not have been adopted because it had a lot of critics.
>
> Ian

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[go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[wilk]

On 16-03-2021, Space A. wrote:

>> This seems very dismissive of the many members of the community which
> *did* invest the time and energy to discuss the design for the past years.
> When the contracts design was announced in 2018
>, the process was explained. Including
> the fact that it is a draft, which will see several revisions, that this
> process will likely take a couple of years and how we can participate in
> it. Many of us have seen that announcement and understood it for what it
> was and thus - even if (like me) they were opposed to the idea of generics
> in Go - decided to participate in it to do their best to ensure the outcome
> was a good design or a rejection.
>
> That's absolutely up to you, but some of us (including myself) can't invest
> so much time because we have to earn money for living.

Every body need to earn money for living. Generics will maybe help for
that. It's why we was a lot (in the community) to invest time discussing
this since years. I thanks Alex and others who have contributed a lot
more time than me. We should respect all this work.

-- 
wilk

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[go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[wilk]

On 17-03-2021, Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 4:28 AM Space A.  wrote:
>>
>> Can you provide any proof that there was an open public discussion?
>
> What kind of proof would you find to be acceptable?  Can you give an
> example of something that I could say that you would consider to be a
> good answer to that question?  Thanks.

It is still possible to write a formal proposal "canceling generics" if
someone find now a good reason, right ? (at the time of modules i
believe it was).

Thanks for your patience

>
> Ian
>
>
>
>> ср, 17 мар. 2021 г. в 02:12, Ian Lance Taylor :
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 6:51 AM Space A.  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > (To be clear, your original claim was that there *was* no discussion - 
>>> > > which is at least easy to address, because it's clearly not true. There 
>>> > > was over three years of active discussion on this)
>>> >
>>> > No, and I can repeat, there was no (public) discussion on whether the 
>>> > idea of generics in Go should be completely dropped. It *was* always a 
>>> > "discussion" of how to improve and implement generics in a Go way, but 
>>> > not of generics themselves as something to be avoided by all means.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but that simply isn't the case.  Many different people at
>>> many different times suggested that the idea of adding generics should
>>> be dropped.  Those ideas were discussed, supported, opposed, and so
>>> forth.  It's been a long discussion over many years.
>>>
>>> Ian
>


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[go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[wilk]

On 18-03-2021, Tyler Compton wrote:

> I think we all want to stick our noses in this thread. I'm going to stick
> my nose in it too :)
>
> Space, I don't think you'll ever be happy as a result of this discussion,
> no matter what evidence or arguments others provide you. I think the fact
> is that you were burned by the outcome of the generics proposal. You didn't
> have the time to review the draft proposal and engage with the discussion
> early, and you disagree with the resulting outcome. That's unfortunate and
> I'm sorry it happened. I hope you don't feel that people are trying to
> convince you that you weren't burned. Nothing feels worse than having your
> concerns trivialized.
>
> However, you have to understand that just because you were burned doesn't
> mean that those around you making these decisions are bad actors. There are
> probably small ways that this process could have been improved, but I don't
> think they would have changed the outcome. The reality is that after many
> iterations, the Go team created a proposal that a large enough number of Go
> users found beneficial for it to be accepted. I know you disagree with
> them, but our responsibility as members of this community is to
> exercise our right to disagree without resorting to attacks on character. I
> hope I've been able to address your concerns and disagree with you without
> making you feel I'm attacking your character.
>
> To those who are still attempting to provide evidence that the generics
> proposal process was conducted in good faith, I think you've done
> everything you need to do and it's probably best to just let this one go.

+1 

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[Space A.]

Go will loose its uniqueness and values, will never become a next big
thing. No cross platform GUI, no Android, and browsers (GopherJS is more
dead than alive, WASM idk) is also a big question. It will be a "bad copy"
of Java or other mature languages (with better and more powerful generics
and lots of other built-in capabilities), niche tool for cli, devops and
microservices (until the fashion will turn into monoliths or whatever this
spiral thing brings up again). Now think where all your investments in
language skills be in next few years.



вт, 16 мар. 2021 г. в 16:06, wilk :

> On 16-03-2021, Space A. wrote:
>
> >> This seems very dismissive of the many members of the community which
> > *did* invest the time and energy to discuss the design for the past
> years.
> > When the contracts design was announced in 2018
> >, the process was explained. Including
> > the fact that it is a draft, which will see several revisions, that this
> > process will likely take a couple of years and how we can participate in
> > it. Many of us have seen that announcement and understood it for what it
> > was and thus - even if (like me) they were opposed to the idea of
> generics
> > in Go - decided to participate in it to do their best to ensure the
> outcome
> > was a good design or a rejection.
> >
> > That's absolutely up to you, but some of us (including myself) can't
> invest
> > so much time because we have to earn money for living.
>
> Every body need to earn money for living. Generics will maybe help for
> that. It's why we was a lot (in the community) to invest time discussing
> this since years. I thanks Alex and others who have contributed a lot
> more time than me. We should respect all this work.
>
> --
> wilk
>
> --
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> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[CreateSpaceMap]

You have a unique thought, you would consider V language if that is what 
you have been thinking about.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 10:35:01 PM UTC+8 Space A. wrote:

> Go will loose its uniqueness and values, will never become a next big 
> thing. No cross platform GUI, no Android, and browsers (GopherJS is more 
> dead than alive, WASM idk) is also a big question. It will be a "bad copy" 
> of Java or other mature languages (with better and more powerful generics 
> and lots of other built-in capabilities), niche tool for cli, devops and 
> microservices (until the fashion will turn into monoliths or whatever this 
> spiral thing brings up again). Now think where all your investments in 
> language skills be in next few years.
>
>
>
> вт, 16 мар. 2021 г. в 16:06, wilk :
>
>> On 16-03-2021, Space A. wrote:
>>
>> >> This seems very dismissive of the many members of the community which
>> > *did* invest the time and energy to discuss the design for the past 
>> years.
>> > When the contracts design was announced in 2018
>> >, the process was explained. Including
>> > the fact that it is a draft, which will see several revisions, that this
>> > process will likely take a couple of years and how we can participate in
>> > it. Many of us have seen that announcement and understood it for what it
>> > was and thus - even if (like me) they were opposed to the idea of 
>> generics
>> > in Go - decided to participate in it to do their best to ensure the 
>> outcome
>> > was a good design or a rejection.
>> >
>> > That's absolutely up to you, but some of us (including myself) can't 
>> invest
>> > so much time because we have to earn money for living.
>>
>> Every body need to earn money for living. Generics will maybe help for
>> that. It's why we was a lot (in the community) to invest time discussing
>> this since years. I thanks Alex and others who have contributed a lot
>> more time than me. We should respect all this work.
>>
>> -- 
>> wilk
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/s2qag8%24i2a%241%40ciao.gmane.io
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

[Ian Lance Taylor]

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 7:34 AM Space A.  wrote:
>
> Go will loose its uniqueness and values, will never become a next big thing. 
> No cross platform GUI, no Android, and browsers (GopherJS is more dead than 
> alive, WASM idk) is also a big question. It will be a "bad copy" of Java or 
> other mature languages (with better and more powerful generics and lots of 
> other built-in capabilities), niche tool for cli, devops and microservices 
> (until the fashion will turn into monoliths or whatever this spiral thing 
> brings up again). Now think where all your investments in language skills be 
> in next few years.

All of those things could certainly come to pass.

However, I'm very skeptical that adding generics to the language will
cause them to come to pass.

And, fortunately, even with generics I believe that Go will remain
significantly simpler than languages like Java or C++, with a
correspondingly smaller investment in language skills.

Ian

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: No generic, part -2

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 12:06 PM wilk  wrote:

> It is still possible to write a formal proposal "canceling generics" if
> someone find now a good reason, right ? (at the time of modules i
> believe it was).
>

I believe it is. We can always change things in response to new information
- we could, theoretically, even change decisions we made years ago.

However, it should be clear that the bar for what constitutes a "good
reason" becomes higher over time. In particular, after the acceptance of
the proposal, the minimum bar is that it really is new information. Because
if the argument was already known, it was already considered and weighed as
part of the decision.

As far as I can tell, the things mentioned in this thread (and other recent
threads on this list) are not new. New information might be some technical
difficulty in the implementation, or a corner case or fundamental problem
we didn't know before. Evidence for overwhelming resistance to generics
could also be new information. Though I'm not sure where it's supposed to
come from - as mentioned a couple of times, it's hard to get representative
polling information. But this was what ultimately killed the `try` error
handling proposal, so it's not unthinkable.


>
> Thanks for your patience
>
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> >
> >> ср, 17 мар. 2021 г. в 02:12, Ian Lance Taylor :
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 6:51 AM Space A.  wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > (To be clear, your original claim was that there *was* no
> discussion - which is at least easy to address, because it's clearly not
> true. There was over three years of active discussion on this)
> >>> >
> >>> > No, and I can repeat, there was no (public) discussion on whether
> the idea of generics in Go should be completely dropped. It *was* always a
> "discussion" of how to improve and implement generics in a Go way, but not
> of generics themselves as something to be avoided by all means.
> >>>
> >>> I'm sorry, but that simply isn't the case.  Many different people at
> >>> many different times suggested that the idea of adding generics should
> >>> be dropped.  Those ideas were discussed, supported, opposed, and so
> >>> forth.  It's been a long discussion over many years.
> >>>
> >>> Ian
> >
>
>
> --
> wilk
>
> --
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> .
>

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