Re: [h-cost] Metrosexual???? OT
Giggling with joy! You hit a topic that gives me an excuse to take a break from grading papers! YIPPEE!!! Many, many thanks. I gave birth to the best example of metrosexual! He has fit the metrosexual description perfectly since he was born in 1976! My #1 son has matched ALL of his clothing since he was 3 y.o. when he started dressing himself. Not only does the shirt and pants have to match but his socks, shoes, underwear, belt (with shoes) ties, caps, etc. My favorite saying about him, He took my matching fashion colors way to seriously when he was 3 years old. He even takes this matching to extremes, colors and styles of cars have to match and their accessories. This child also spent too much time in front of the mirror. He makes sure to look at himself and adjust hair or clothing everything he passes something that reflects... like windows. He wanted so bad to major in fashion in college, but decided college wasn't for him after two years. But he married a fashion major. She is as bad as him with the color/fashion matching and that their fashions have themes, including their Better Homes and Garden home. Theirs and the children wardrobes' volume are unreal! Of course, all their kids' clothing are perfectly matched. Needless to say they are both perfectionist. Every morning she gets up earlier, and finds out what kind of businesses he will be visiting that day or business meetings. She pulls the appropriate ensemble for the day. He has corporate wear, medium-size business and small business wear. This breaks down even more by if the business is located in a large city, small, or rural. Even their casual wear is very preppy and very organized. I guess this business dress theory works. He is one of the top five salespeople in a national Fortune 500 business. My son says that you don't go into a small rural business in an expensive dress shirt and tie. They are scared to talk with you. So you dress the part, a polo shirt and Dockers. He says that the people feel comfortable to talk, if you dress the appropriate way for the clients. My son has the perfect tan year round, waxed eyebrows, and body hair trimmed (everywhere visible). He started taking my coversticks when he was a teenager. He used them to cover zits. He still uses them. He and his wife have perfect skin, due to visiting spas on business trips. His wife will not go a the trip if there is not a good spa at the hotel/resort. A couple of months ago, Bazar magazine declared the term metrosexual was out, on their What's In and Out monthly list. I guess that was the formal declaration. There is a new term for this type of person, but I can't recall it at this moment. The other day I had a good giggle while driving my teenage daughter and her girlfriends around . They were discussing the types of guys they liked. Each one would say the types of guy and why. Every girl liked a different types of guy according to their mode of dress and hairstyle. After each girl said their guy's style, my daughter would say, Well you would like my brother ___ and the type of fashion style. Another girl would say what type of guy they liked. My daughter would say the same thing but with a different name. There was a new girl in the group. She asked, How many brothers do you have? My daughter said, Five and they all have different styles. The other girls said, Yes, she really does have five big brothers and they all dress differently. My daughter stated that her #1 brother was a metrosexual and the girls asked was he gay. The term metrosexual refers to a male who cares about their fashion sense as much as a well-kept female. That is why some people think that this term metrosexual is a gay man. Some people assume that only gay men dress extremely well and care about their appearance, and straight guys do not. Ironically, my #1 son wanted to fashion major in college. He decided against it because he believed people would think he is gay. I believe my son thinks this because when I was a fashion major student in the 1970s and 1990s, male gay students would come to our home to study for our fashion tests, write papers, etc. Another irony, both my best college friends in these decades were gay guys named Rodney. My son assumes that all guys who are fashion majors are gay. His wife or I can't him otherwise. I have told him that there are gay and straight fashion designers, salesmen, retailers, buyers, etc. and named some of the famous ones. I guess, he is not the only one who thinks this way. Last summer after the Calvin Klein's Biography show in class, several of my students remarked, I thought he was gay. We had a long talk about assuming someone's sexually because of their career choice. I was expecting this same gay response when I showed the same video in last week's class. These students discussed a lot about Klein's career and
[h-cost] Re: Medieval Embroidery
I can kinda-sorta help you out with this one. One of the shirts in the Sicilian Bride collection at the Met is completely reversible, done not only in polychrome silks, but gold thread as well. Both cuffs and collars are coated in it in good 2 inch bands. These date to ca. 1500-1600 Sicily. They employ several stitch types, none of which are Assisi or Blackwork in nature. Satin stitch is most predominant in the motifs. As for publishingwait a year or so and see who ends up published first -me or the Met. ;-) I understand that insisting on completely reversible, uber-tidy embroidery backs is far more a Victorian convention than Medieval. I've heard this statement debated hotly both ways. The Met collection is by no means nasty looking on the back, but you can spot the knots if you look for them. Kathy It’s never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131 So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a two right sides technique to a medieval artifact? Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
In blackwork, double running is the primary stitch, but it's not the stitch which creates the doublesidedness. It's the actual pattern--i.e., how it is executed. Arlys On Sat, 5 May 2007 23:02:40 -0500 (CDT) Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote: There are lots of examples from this period both in English and Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be forthcoming if you need additional examples. I don't know what the earliest such example is, though. I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying this stitch is medieval but rather these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from Y time and Z place? Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550. But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do in my own specialties. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as blackwork, but was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of that from the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. Melusine It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) work is done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the filling stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void between my ears. ;) Arlys ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
We're out here, but at least one of us (me) was completely involved in helping with a local SCA event yesterday, and just now getting caught up in the flood of emails! ;o) --Sue - Original Message - From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:56 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery And here I thought this list would be full of people who who were obsessive about embroidery history who would have this stuff at their fingertips. I have no clue what sources are standard on stitch types, existing artifacts, etc. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
The earliest known *dated* sampler is the Bostocke sampler at the VA, but it's not actually the oldest sampler. There are several in my book Embroideries and Samplers from Islamic Egypt, and they *all* significantly predate the Bostocke sampler. Which is, nonetheless, one of my favorite pieces in the world g...I pretty much expected beams of light and choirs of angels, when I actually found that sampler in the textile rooms at the VA. But then, I'm an embroidery geek of long standing! --Sue in Montana - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery Although with some stitches you can't help making the back nearly as neat as the front (classics indeed being blackwork and tent stitch, etc), I'm not aware of any medieval embroidery being made this way on purpose. And whether styles like blackwork or asissi work, or several others, very much depends on your geographical context. Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to the state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up of the garment (usually), so that the back of the work would be unlikely to be seen. As far as I'm aware the neatness of the back of embroidery dates to the beginnings of samplers - and the earliest known one of these is late 16th century (I think - the one in the va textiles room). Both sides same embroidery, where the intention of the work is to have both sides looking exactly the same is 19th century thing (possibly late 18th??), that came about for use on things like military standards. It's also incredibly difficult to do, and one of the banes of my life!!:o) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
There are actually 16th century portraits out there, in which there are clearly two *different* patterns on the two sides of a collar. It's also obvious, from some of the construction details, that collars had both an inside layer of fabric and an outer (I'm avoiding saying always, of course). There's a boy's shirt from, I think, the 1540's, currently at the VA, which has a small ruffle extending out from the shirt collar. It's pretty clear that the shirt-edge of the ruffle is enclosed between two layers of collar. I'm guessing that your friend is more likely to find evidence of reversability in the cuffs and ruffles (applied or integral), than in the collars. --Sue - Original Message - From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:47 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery On Sat, 5 May 2007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to the state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up of the garment (usually), so that the back of the work would be unlikely to be seen. That would certainly be the case for, say, a doublet, but for the cuffs or collars of linen chemises, which are not lined, why would the embroidery be done in advance, or assumed not to be seen? Chemises in 16th century paintings are often shown with blackwork embroidery on cuff edges and collars; presumably the insides of the cuffs would be readily visible, and collars might be turned out in some cases. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Thanks! :-) Arlys On Sun, 6 May 2007 10:32:04 -0600 Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Usually done in a form of long-armed cross stitch, as far as I know. --Sue in Montana - Original Message - From: Cynthia J Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as blackwork, but was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of that from the 12th cen. (1100's). I'll see what I can dig up. Melusine It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) work is done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the filling stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void between my ears. ;) Arlys ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Embroidery on pill box hats?
Dear All I'm collecting images of embroidered pillbox hats from the Elizabethan era. If you have any specific links to share, that would be great. I've taken today off work to get some sewing done and am trying not to spend too much time on the computer! Is there any evidence of embroidered flat caps? My first attempt at a pillbox hat came out too large, so I'm making a smaller version, with a desire to embroider it this time around. You can see my first hat at http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/gardens.htm Many thanks, Aylwen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying this stitch is medieval but rather these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from Y time and Z place? Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550. But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do in my own specialties. --Robin The book you're looking for is History of Western Embroidery by Shuette. I think I've got that right, if I don't, please someone correct me. Good luck trying to find it, though. It's been out of print for ages, the copy I owned fell victim to a friend's bad divorce and was destroyed, and my local library's copy has been stolen. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Some, but not all, blackwork is reversible, and if it is, it is perfectly suited to cuffs and hankies and napkins where both sides will be seen. That said, this ability to be reversible for some patterns may be a happy accident which occurs owing to the combination of the particular pattern and double running stitch. A happy accident that people kept using. I look forward to further responses too. I've often wondered about pre-Tudor blackwork (Spanish work? Blackwork by any other name?) as well. Thanks for bringing this up Robin! :-) Arlys ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few years ago. It is more correctly known as monochrome embroidery and was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her collar with blackwork inside and outside. It was also sited in Viking Embroidery. There technically are no limits to stitches used. However, what most people think of is the 16th century designs made popular by the Holbein paintings, therefore the Hobein stitch. To see if something could have been done doublesided take graph paper and follow the design with a pencil. If you can do it, even with drawing back over the design with the pencil without lifting the pencil off the paper it can be done double sided. Look for designs on artifacts that can be done this way. Then check with the museums to see if they can tell you if it is done that way. That is the best I can offer you. I work mostly with duplicating designs. I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know when to go to others with a question. This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and wrong side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Of one kind of border designs usually used on undergarments and tunic edges. 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. Many, with many different stitches, in many different countries, including Persia. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a two right sides technique to a medieval artifact? Not two right sides but the back side looks as good as the front. Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sun, 6 May 2007, Sue Clemenger wrote: Monochrome embroidery is actually considerably older than the 1400s... Sue, any insights into embroidery meant to be seen from both sides, as on cuffs or collars? That's the real issue here -- how early that concept might apply. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
The closest that I can think of, would be this book (one of my faves): Embroideries ans Samplers from Islamic Egypt by Marianne Ellis. (Ashmolean Museum, University of Oxford, 2001). ISBN: 1-85444-135-3 (for the paperback version). It's an examination of embroidered textiles, most of which (they think) were used for clothing and light furnishings, and examples range from the Tulunid period (late 9th century) through the Mamluk period (up to 1517). There are a fair number of pieces containing surface embroidery stitches (split stitch, chain stitch, stem stitch, cross stitch, etc.), but a significant number of the pieces comprise some form of monochrome embroidery--double-running stitch, pattern darning, pulled-thread and drawn-thread work, etc. There's a rather nice sampler, for instance, which has been carbon-dated to the 14th century, and which was done in blue silk (and plain linen) threads on linen, and uses double-running stitches and drawn-thread work. There's also a fragment of something they're assuming was part of a towel border, and it's done in blue silk, using double-running stitch. (a repeating pattern of birds, late 14th-early 15th century). There are also a couple of pieces clearly meant to be shirts/tunics, but the embroidery is being used on the sleeves, body, etc., and not so much on collar and cuffs. It's clearly not an examination of European textiles and embroidery, but the author does go to some effort to point out stylistic connections between these bits and later European usage. (Theory being short version that these Islamic-based styles and techniques spread into Europe on trade routes.) --Sue - Original Message - From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote: There are lots of examples from this period both in English and Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be forthcoming if you need additional examples. I don't know what the earliest such example is, though. I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying this stitch is medieval but rather these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from Y time and Z place? Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550. But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do in my own specialties. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] pleated trim
Gosh, i really have putten myself to work with all that pleating for the dress. Spended 2 days to make trim, and i have not made all of it yeat. I have handstitched all the gold trim to the fabric strips, and it pays to do so because it looks much better... http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/sofie3.htm Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sun, 06 May 2007 01:11:52 +0200, Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and wrong side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. It sounds like you are describing darning stitch or weaveseam. An example of weaveseam embroidery front; http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/images/vines05.jpg Back; http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/images/backside.jpg For extant examples in books ; *Traditional Icelandic embroidery, Elsa E. Gudjonson *Att datera textiler, Margareta Nockert Göran Possnert (mention of a 13th C norwegian weaveseam embroidery as oldest extant in Norway.Also of a swedish extant weaveseam embroidery dated between 1320 and 1440. Another norwegian example is dated between 1440 and 1620). *Embroideries and samplers from Islamic egypt, marianne Ellis *Medeltida vävnader och broderier i Sverige, Agnes Brandting and Andreas Lindholm *Prydnadssömmar under medeltiden, Anne marie Franzén *Embroiderers, medieval craftsmen. Kay Staniland (p.63, german 15th C towel shown pattern front and the reverse pattern on the back). If you need relevant sections translated, let me know. There are examples of illustrations which shows what might either be weaveseam embroidery or possibly a woven pattern from the early 15thC. The stitch was quite popular long before then and there are more than enough extant examples from the 13th C and onwards. Gunvor - Jeg har sagt ja og nei og DA får du lov Anders (nesten 4 år) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On May 5, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Robin Netherton wrote: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Hi, Robin! g Some, but NOT all, historical blackwork is reversible (same on both sides). The idea that ALL blackwork is supposed to be completely reversible is an artifact of the 20th century embroidery revival. 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. I know there is also a tradition of Japanese silk embroidery that is identical on both sides, but I don't know how old that is. And probably not relevant :) 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a two right sides technique to a medieval artifact? IIRC, most of the evidence that it existed is from paintings, which as we all know, may or may not represent reality accurately. I'll e-mail you off list with more info OChris Laning [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] pleated trim
Bjarne, your patience and your workmanship are both admirable! --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer On May 6, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Gosh, i really have putten myself to work with all that pleating for the dress. Spended 2 days to make trim, and i have not made all of it yeat. I have handstitched all the gold trim to the fabric strips, and it pays to do so because it looks much better... http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/sofie3.htm Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
Here's one piece I know is reversible. Queen Jane's cuffs. Unfortunately somewhat later than 1400. http://www.elizabethancostume.net/blackwork/seymour.html http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/jane-notes.html MaggiRos --- Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007, otsisto wrote: This is the sort of thing I'm looking for -- I don't need a reference to blackwork specifically, but rather to any reversible front/back technique that can be documented to c. 1400. Preferably England. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
On Sun, 6 May 2007, Bonnie Booker wrote: Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few years ago. It is more correctly known as monochrome embroidery and was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her collar with blackwork inside and outside. I'm aware of this reference -- it comes up a lot in discussions of 14th c. embroidery -- and I always pictured something like blackwork when I heard it, as it is black silk embroidery on a white smock, described as being all around the collar. But I'm wondering if that's the right interpretation of the following line, which indicates that the embroidery is withinne and eek withoute. I can't think of a better way to read it, but smocks in this period were not designed to show outside the dress, and did not have necklines that could be turned outward -- that I know of -- to show the inside. Anyone have a better reading? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
I have a question regarding Blackwork. How do you embroider on a cuff? If you make a chemise and want to do blackwork on a cuff whats the best wa y to do it? Lynn Bonnie Booker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few years ago. It is more correctly known as monochrome embroidery and was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her collar with blackwork inside and outside. It was also sited in Viking Embroidery. There technically are no limits to stitches used. However, what most people think of is the 16th century designs made popular by the Holbein paintings, therefore the Hobein stitch. To see if something could have been done doublesided take graph paper and follow the design with a pencil. If you can do it, even with drawing back over the design with the pencil without lifting the pencil off the paper it can be done double sided. Look for designs on artifacts that can be done this way. Then check with the museums to see if they can tell you if it is done that way. That is the best I can offer you. I work mostly with duplicating designs. I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know when to go to others with a question. This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished looking on both the right and wrong side, and thus suited to things like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out. So, questions: 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork? Or any other kind of historic embroidery style? Of one kind of border designs usually used on undergarments and tunic edges. 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about 1400. Many, with many different stitches, in many different countries, including Persia. 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use of such a two right sides technique to a medieval artifact? Not two right sides but the back side looks as good as the front. Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be blackwork. Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400. -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost]Authentic fabric widths
I'll check Arnold. Thanks to both of you for replying. I have an image in one of my books of a church in France where the yard stick is carved into the exterior wall. I do remember that English woolen broadcloth was about 2 yards wide and that various silks and silk velvets were in the range of 2 feet or less. I was hoping that someone already had a list of the variations in width and length online somewhere. Just lazy I guess... another project for my to-do list! ...eventually it will get done, I promise. grin Take care, Beth At 07:19 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 16:35:52 -0700 (PDT) From: MaggiRos [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's some information in the back of the Elizabethan Patterns of Fashion (Janet Arnold) MaggiRos --- WickedFrau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll go look, but as I recall there were various widths available during these times. I know for sure that an ell was different lengths in different places at different times. Some widths were surprisingly wide...like 60 inches. I'll get back to you. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost]Authentic fabric widths
As far as I've heard, up to 108 in some places, like Italy... Talia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [h-cost]Authentic fabric widths I'll check Arnold. Thanks to both of you for replying. I have an image in one of my books of a church in France where the yard stick is carved into the exterior wall. I do remember that English woolen broadcloth was about 2 yards wide and that various silks and silk velvets were in the range of 2 feet or less. I was hoping that someone already had a list of the variations in width and length online somewhere. Just lazy I guess... another project for my to-do list! ...eventually it will get done, I promise. grin Take care, Beth At 07:19 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 16:35:52 -0700 (PDT) From: MaggiRos [EMAIL PROTECTED] There's some information in the back of the Elizabethan Patterns of Fashion (Janet Arnold) MaggiRos --- WickedFrau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll go look, but as I recall there were various widths available during these times. I know for sure that an ell was different lengths in different places at different times. Some widths were surprisingly wide...like 60 inches. I'll get back to you. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.4/790 - Release Date: 5/5/2007 10:34 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.4/790 - Release Date: 5/5/2007 10:34 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Finding shoes?
- Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:59:06 AM Subject: [h-cost] Finding shoes? Dear All I have to find some cheap shoes online for my sons (aged 6, 11 and 13) to wear that will look Elizabethan upper class. I've looked in the stores here but all the slippers have motifs on them. Does anyone have any ideas? Many thanks, Aylwen Hi Aylwen, if you have a good Chinatown or good Asian stores nearby try looking for plain Chinese slippers. Mostly you'll find black canvas, but on occasion you may find black velvet ones. I don't know if there are other colours available though. Good luck! Bella The Realm of Venus http://realmofvenus.net Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Finding shoes?
Thanks Bella. I hadn't thought of these shoes. I've just found a good source http:// www.chinadirectstore.com/women_shoes.htm They have many colours and good prices. Cheers, Aylwen On 07/05/2007, at 12:51 PM, Bella wrote: - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:59:06 AM Subject: [h-cost] Finding shoes? Dear All I have to find some cheap shoes online for my sons (aged 6, 11 and 13) to wear that will look Elizabethan upper class. I've looked in the stores here but all the slippers have motifs on them. Does anyone have any ideas? Many thanks, Aylwen Hi Aylwen, if you have a good Chinatown or good Asian stores nearby try looking for plain Chinese slippers. Mostly you'll find black canvas, but on occasion you may find black velvet ones. I don't know if there are other colours available though. Good luck! Bella The Realm of Venus http://realmofvenus.net Send instant messages to your online friends http:// au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Finding shoes?
If you go to: www.landsend.com and go to Overstocks, they have all weather mocs for about $10 US. If you need outdoor shoes, these are pretty good. You can dye or spray paint them if the colors aren't right. They also have other styles that might work. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 7:29 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Finding shoes? Dear All I have to find some cheap shoes online for my sons (aged 6, 11 and 13) to wear that will look Elizabethan upper class. I've looked in the stores here but all the slippers have motifs on them. Does anyone have any ideas? Many thanks, Aylwen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
