Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I stand corrected, found this photo after i sent the last post http://entertheoctopus.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/52.jpg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
The eyes on the bride look natural. This is an example of painted eyes. http://www.petroliaheritage.com/zpostmort.JPG Guess which one. Picture is from here http://www.petroliaheritage.com/people.html scroll down to the pic and it explains a few things. And yes all post mortems have closed eyes. De -Original Message- Face it, they have both been dead for a long time. But in the photo they are alive--there's really no reason to think otherwise. Have you EVER seen a post-mortem photo with open eyes? Kim ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I have - one or two - but they didn't look like The Bride's.. Imagine something more like that whole fish in the grocer's case, the one you think's a little too old Liadain THL Liadain ni Mhordha OFO "You get a wonderful view from the point of no return..." http://www.flickr.com/photos/liadains_fancies http://practical-blackwork.blogspot.com http://practicalblackwork.com -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Kim Baird Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:05 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? Face it, they have both been dead for a long time. But in the photo they are alive--there's really no reason to think otherwise. Have you EVER seen a post-mortem photo with open eyes? Kim ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Face it, they have both been dead for a long time. But in the photo they are alive--there's really no reason to think otherwise. Have you EVER seen a post-mortem photo with open eyes? Kim ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I am not aware of airbrushing, but colouring of the images is sometime done. This is by adding pigments onto the image, which can obscure the image underneath. "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 9:21 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? Good eye Carol! I hadn't notice before the right temple/out lid. This looks like someone painted digitally on it. I noticed the specs on the man's suit too. Ron, was their a type of airbrushing on photos during this time. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Thanks Ron for the images of head braces. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Good eye Carol! I hadn't notice before the right temple/out lid. This looks like someone painted digitally on it. I noticed the specs on the man's suit too. Ron, was their a type of airbrushing on photos during this time. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Here is a better one also repro http://www.cwreenactors.com/phorum/read.php?1,6536 "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Ron Carnegie Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:38 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? My wife? Um let me see. http://www.cwreenactors.com/phorum/read.php?2,6421 This is the repro (the top is the part to look at the bottom isn't right on this one. By the way I am in the market for one of these if anyone knows where I can get one under 500 dollars "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:24 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? Patricia, This white line is only three pixels deep. The white part is online one pixel deep. I think it is probably a scratch on the photo or something on the scanner glass or a bobby pin. At only three pixels, I believe it is a scratch. I run across a lot of photo scratches like this. There is no hint of a lightened spot like this on the opposing side. Ron, do you know of an online image for a head prop like your wife mentioned? Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Hi Penny, It's still a little tricky — I see jpg artifacts — it's different than if you had the photo and did a hi-res scan yourself. The white pixels around the flower stems could be from sharpening the image file. I see the same effect between the man's sleeve and the background, both above and the inner elbow space. One odd thing is a paler spot on her right eye/eyelid, maybe a damaged spot on the photo? It's a little off to be a highlight, or is that another indication of less-than-perfect retouching of the eyes? And I was also wondering about that white bar on her left temple. I would expect for a hairpin or barrette to have one on each side. There are so many white marks on the gent's suit that don't look like they belong there, so without the original photo (or a good hi-res scan), who knows what is there and what is damage. -Carol On Feb 6, 2010, at 6:49 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote: Linda Walton sent me the image URL and I have zoomed in on the photo. The buckle on the belt slightly to her left side. The belt's bottom rests and about an inch above the bodice's bottom. This seems a bit odd location to me. Has anyone seen this fashion trend? The flowers are carnations. The stems' bottom is tucked behind a fold in the dress. They are probably pinned to the belt. On the other hand, I do believe the photographer added the flowers later. There are no shadows on the dress from the flowers. For a matter of fact, there is a line of lighter gray/ almost white pixels around the edge of the flowers. There are some unusual pixels that don't seem to belong. I am very experienced to working with photos at this high of magnification. Her pupils do seem to be painted. There is no definition/variation in the pixels' color/shades like with normal photos. Her right eye is also closer to the bridge of the nose than the left. Judging by the shadows around her eyes, they are normally open. The shadow that I saw under her left ear is the chair. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
The first thought I had: She is not dead. My second thought: I've seen a lot more wedding photos of the groom sitting and the woman standing. And she does seem slightly reclined. And what are we seeing at the hem of her dress? I wonder if she was partially paralyzed or something which would require her to be the one sitting (hence the shorter dress and slight slouch back into the chair). Just speculation, of course. --Rachel ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
My wife? Um let me see. http://www.cwreenactors.com/phorum/read.php?2,6421 This is the repro (the top is the part to look at the bottom isn't right on this one. By the way I am in the market for one of these if anyone knows where I can get one under 500 dollars "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:24 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? Patricia, This white line is only three pixels deep. The white part is online one pixel deep. I think it is probably a scratch on the photo or something on the scanner glass or a bobby pin. At only three pixels, I believe it is a scratch. I run across a lot of photo scratches like this. There is no hint of a lightened spot like this on the opposing side. Ron, do you know of an online image for a head prop like your wife mentioned? Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Doesn't look like a head clamp to me. They are not usually light colored. Every original I have seen and most repros are either black or green. The ends are shaped sort of like spoons, less elaborate than those seem. I also wouldn't expect to see it placed so high, but then she is wearing that veil. That being said, it does seem to have an equal on the other side, which it would if it is a clamp or brace. The head braces do occasionally show up in pictures. Still, having used them, these famous head clamps have really bad reputations but they are not deserved. They don't lock you head in place but rather let you know if you are moving. "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net www.rscarnegie.com -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Dunham Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:52 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I must say, the close-up Beteena provided makes the mystery artifact (the light colored, horizontal whats-it) at her left temple look even more like a photographer's head-clamp than I thought originally! As for her eyes not being completely even, well, lots of people have uneven eyes or very slight wall-eyes... chimene >I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem >bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the >description the seller has of the bride. The item number is >380202466338. > >Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) >Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites >www.costumegallery.com >14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history >___ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Patricia, This white line is only three pixels deep. The white part is online one pixel deep. I think it is probably a scratch on the photo or something on the scanner glass or a bobby pin. At only three pixels, I believe it is a scratch. I run across a lot of photo scratches like this. There is no hint of a lightened spot like this on the opposing side. Ron, do you know of an online image for a head prop like your wife mentioned? Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I must say, the close-up Beteena provided makes the mystery artifact (the light colored, horizontal whats-it) at her left temple look even more like a photographer's head-clamp than I thought originally! As for her eyes not being completely even, well, lots of people have uneven eyes or very slight wall-eyes... chimene I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
My understanding is that this image was done with paper figures on sticks. They are rather famous. Double images can certainly be made with wetplate or dryplate photography and I have seen some "ghost "images that were done that way. A double exposure will usually leave a ghostly image though, that is somewhat transparent. "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of otsisto Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:11 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? Double exposure. though the second exposure does not appear real solid. not sure if this is a good example, might be figs on a stick. http://tinyurl.com/2o6b8r -Original Message- Does anybody know if photographers back then could superimpose such things? Anne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
A correction about the flower...I am almost positive that the flower was added later. The stem does not go into a fold line, it just ends abruptly before a normal cutting position. Behind one of the leaves there is a spot that does not appear on the leave. If it was a good sized spot on the photo, it would have discolored on the leaf. Thank you Beteena for finding the image. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Linda Walton sent me the image URL and I have zoomed in on the photo. The buckle on the belt slightly to her left side. The belt's bottom rests and about an inch above the bodice's bottom. This seems a bit odd location to me. Has anyone seen this fashion trend? The flowers are carnations. The stems' bottom is tucked behind a fold in the dress. They are probably pinned to the belt. On the other hand, I do believe the photographer added the flowers later. There are no shadows on the dress from the flowers. For a matter of fact, there is a line of lighter gray/ almost white pixels around the edge of the flowers. There are some unusual pixels that don't seem to belong. I am very experienced to working with photos at this high of magnification. Her pupils do seem to be painted. There is no definition/variation in the pixels' color/shades like with normal photos. Her right eye is also closer to the bridge of the nose than the left. Judging by the shadows around her eyes, they are normally open. The shadow that I saw under her left ear is the chair. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Here is the close up: http://app2.sellersourcebook.com/users/101103/img_0003_new_0001_1264906695.jpg I couldn't find the full image. From: Penny Ladnier To: Historical Costume Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 10:46:10 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? What a lively discussion on a snowy weekend! We dodged the big bullet this weekend Ron! I checked my massive bridal photo collection from 1880-1919. Her bodice dates from 1898-1902. So here are my observations from my collection: ***About half of the photos during these four decades, the couple are touching in the photo. Most of the time, it is the man's arm on the chair or the woman is holding the man's arm as in a wedding march stance. ***I have a few photos in the later Edwardian period where the women at sitting. By the early 1910s this trend is about 50/50. By the later decade, the majority of women are sitting in the photos. By the 1920s, it is commonplace to see the bride and groom sitting. In a lot of photos from the 1920s/1930s all the women are sitting and the men standing. I wonder if this bride is sick or disabled as to why she is sitting OR the photographer is picking up on a new trend. ***Her hand position is very common in all four decades. ***Her face is more softened than any other part of the photo. I have several non-bridal photos with this effect from the 1890s. ***His stance is very common in all decades. He actually shows a little affection in his eyes. ***From my other photo collections from the 1890s-Edwardian, it is commonplace for flowers pinned to their bodice at the waist or upper left chest. I do have a few 1890s/Edwardian bridal photos with fresh flowers all over the dress. ***Her leaning back in the chair is very popular for women's photos in the mid-to-late Edwardian period. It gives a more relaxed look to the photo. I have several 1910s photos with brides with this posture. ***I have seen hand-drawn with crosses on the post-mortem photos or the last photo of the person alive. I have one of this type of "last alive photos" of my uncle as a toddler from the mid-Edwardian period. A lot of post-mortem photos have a lot of flowers in the photo of on the border. When you look at it, you definitely know the purpose of the photo. Years ago, there was a list-member whose family had been photographer for several generations. She sent a lengthily message about post-mortem photos. There is something on the photo near the right ear. You can see her husband's arm through the veil. De I do see the suspicious area that might be a buckle. I would like to grab the photo an put in my extreme zooming software to see what these things are. I have bought a lot of photos on eBay and when I zoom in very closely, I find all sorts of things. I looked at the webpage code, but can not find the URL for the images. I have new glasses and viewing HTML code is a challenge right now. If anyone can find the photo image URL in the code, please send it to me. As for the flowers...women were using dried flowers during this time. There are articles in fashion magazines for the process of drying. Her flowers may not have been processed properly. Thank you for mentioning the painted eyes. I forgot about this. I do have several professional photos with someone in the bridal party with their eyes closed. I have often thought that the photographer did not sell the photo or maybe that is why a family member did not hold on to a photo. Some of these photos look brand new. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
What a lively discussion on a snowy weekend! We dodged the big bullet this weekend Ron! I checked my massive bridal photo collection from 1880-1919. Her bodice dates from 1898-1902. So here are my observations from my collection: ***About half of the photos during these four decades, the couple are touching in the photo. Most of the time, it is the man's arm on the chair or the woman is holding the man's arm as in a wedding march stance. ***I have a few photos in the later Edwardian period where the women at sitting. By the early 1910s this trend is about 50/50. By the later decade, the majority of women are sitting in the photos. By the 1920s, it is commonplace to see the bride and groom sitting. In a lot of photos from the 1920s/1930s all the women are sitting and the men standing. I wonder if this bride is sick or disabled as to why she is sitting OR the photographer is picking up on a new trend. ***Her hand position is very common in all four decades. ***Her face is more softened than any other part of the photo. I have several non-bridal photos with this effect from the 1890s. ***His stance is very common in all decades. He actually shows a little affection in his eyes. ***From my other photo collections from the 1890s-Edwardian, it is commonplace for flowers pinned to their bodice at the waist or upper left chest. I do have a few 1890s/Edwardian bridal photos with fresh flowers all over the dress. ***Her leaning back in the chair is very popular for women's photos in the mid-to-late Edwardian period. It gives a more relaxed look to the photo. I have several 1910s photos with brides with this posture. ***I have seen hand-drawn with crosses on the post-mortem photos or the last photo of the person alive. I have one of this type of "last alive photos" of my uncle as a toddler from the mid-Edwardian period. A lot of post-mortem photos have a lot of flowers in the photo of on the border. When you look at it, you definitely know the purpose of the photo. Years ago, there was a list-member whose family had been photographer for several generations. She sent a lengthily message about post-mortem photos. There is something on the photo near the right ear. You can see her husband's arm through the veil. De I do see the suspicious area that might be a buckle. I would like to grab the photo an put in my extreme zooming software to see what these things are. I have bought a lot of photos on eBay and when I zoom in very closely, I find all sorts of things. I looked at the webpage code, but can not find the URL for the images. I have new glasses and viewing HTML code is a challenge right now. If anyone can find the photo image URL in the code, please send it to me. As for the flowers...women were using dried flowers during this time. There are articles in fashion magazines for the process of drying. Her flowers may not have been processed properly. Thank you for mentioning the painted eyes. I forgot about this. I do have several professional photos with someone in the bridal party with their eyes closed. I have often thought that the photographer did not sell the photo or maybe that is why a family member did not hold on to a photo. Some of these photos look brand new. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Thank you. I remember seeing this picture before. I suppose it is just natural to see what one can do artistically with a new medium. Anne -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of otsisto Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:11 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? Double exposure. though the second exposure does not appear real solid. not sure if this is a good example, might be figs on a stick. http://tinyurl.com/2o6b8r -Original Message- Does anybody know if photographers back then could superimpose such things? Anne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Double exposure. though the second exposure does not appear real solid. not sure if this is a good example, might be figs on a stick. http://tinyurl.com/2o6b8r -Original Message- Does anybody know if photographers back then could superimpose such things? Anne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I remember reading about ladies tucking bouquets in their belts, or pinning them to their waists, and I thought of that when I saw this photo. She looks very much alive to me, but those flowers are definitely past their prime. M. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
The flowers appear to be slightly wilted as if they were picked early morning and it is afternoon. Some of the stems are resting in the lap and may be the cause of the angle of the bouquet. If there was a larger picture you might see a buckle on that waist ribbon on the left of the sitter, something looks to be there. If one were going by just the hands you might think that she is dead as she is not grasping the arm rest but if you take in consideration of the clothing she is wearing, specifically the undergarments then one can see how she is trying to make the best of sitting still and not be to uncomfortable. Other PMPs http://tinyurl.com/yc7w8ol http://centripetalnotion.com/images/postmortem.jpg http://tinyurl.com/y8wjvyd PMP of a fireman (posing wasn't a problem) http://tinyurl.com/yzoxlsd close up http://tinyurl.com/ygmg5uf It is known that pupils would be painted on the closed eyelids. De -Original Message- Dianne, that's an oh-come-now. :) The seller is ignorant. The bride is not necessarily relaxed, but sitting that way because of her gown and corset. She is leaning slightly back, but her corset doesn't allow her a bend at the waist. The flowers are probably not photoshopped; she is holding the ends of the stems, which are visible. They do stick up and look weird. I see nothing exceptional at all about the shot. YMMV! == Marjorie Wilser On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 AM, Dianne wrote: > I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem > bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the > description the seller has of the bride. The item number is > 380202466338>> > > I don't believe this is a post mortem photo. I don't think that > woman looks dead, she has the same rigid posture as almost any photo > taken at that time--sitting utterly still for that long would not be > conducive to a relaxed posture! The flowers do look off, but I > believe brides and grooms often posed for their wedding portrait > some time after the ceremony, so it could be her bouquet had been > dried for preservation. > > Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Ann, Yes there was superimposed photography at the time. I have seen photos of a family in a graveyard with a ghost image of the deceased on them. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history - Original Message - From: "Irina Moeller" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I agree that she looks very much alive. The pose for both of them looks totally normal for the time period. I also agree that she is simply looking at something else than the groom. I do not think that he looks upset and there really were a lot of mourning rituals back then. Her flowers do not look any more real than his do. Does anybody know if photographers back then could superimpose such things? Anne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
"Dead photography" wasn't that unusual down south, at least - though it does seem to mostly have been children (often posed as if alive in mother's or siblings's arms <> or in a little chair or cradle; most adults I've seen were "laid out" or in their casket. Money for photographers was scarce, so often these were the only photos ever taken of the family My former MiL had a 10 x 14 photo of her dead husband in his coffin prominently displayed on the wall in her living room. Can't make up my mind about this one, though... not to be gross, but her eyes look very clear for someone deceased/embalmed... Liadain THL Liadain ni Mhordha OFO "You get a wonderful view from the point of no return..." http://www.flickr.com/photos/liadains_fancies http://practical-blackwork.blogspot.com http://practicalblackwork.com -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of annbw...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:30 AM To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? In a message dated 2/6/2010 4:45:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, sha...@collierfam.com writes: Who would want a picture of a dead woman bride and what reputable photographer (as this seems to be) would agree to do that? People DID take pictures of their dead babies--I have seen some. But I've never heard of a dead bride. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I don't think she's dead either. IF she were in rigor, no one would have been able to dress her in those clothes. If she had died just before, during or just after the wedding and died in her dress, the flowers would have been fresh. Her strange position and her feet off the floor could easily be explained by the fact that that sort of chair is too tall and deep for a small woman in a corset. I'm short and wouldn't look right in that chair either. I guess that's the only chair the photographer had in his studio or they wouldn't have used it. My two cent's worth is that either those are prop flowers or shecarefully kept parts of her bouquet and used them for this photo. LynnD On 2/6/10, Liz Herman wrote: > Couldn't say for sure... but I do notice that her pose is very "odd" for > the time. Generally speaking, you'd expect the bride to be sitting > upright, not slightly reclined. Also, you can clearly see her shoes - > not flat on the floor. I can't think of another picture with long > skirts that show the feet sticking out the front of the dress, with the > dress resting on them, rather than having the feet tucked back - where > you might see them slightly, but definitely behind the front of the > dress rather than at or slightly in front of the dress. > > Just my $.02 worth > -Liz > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Couldn't say for sure... but I do notice that her pose is very "odd" for the time. Generally speaking, you'd expect the bride to be sitting upright, not slightly reclined. Also, you can clearly see her shoes - not flat on the floor. I can't think of another picture with long skirts that show the feet sticking out the front of the dress, with the dress resting on them, rather than having the feet tucked back - where you might see them slightly, but definitely behind the front of the dress rather than at or slightly in front of the dress. Just my $.02 worth -Liz ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I just realized something else. While it is true that a body goes into rigor after death, I believe (too much CSI) that rigor then PASSES. So unless the bride was photographed IMMEDIATELY after death (in that rigor phase) she would not have been stiff. And I agree with the person who said her corset allows her to lean in that odd manner. We've all done that! :-) -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:30 AM To: h-costume Subject: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I agree that she looks very much alive. The pose for both of them looks totally normal for the time period. I also agree that she is simply looking at something else than the groom. I do not think that he looks upset and there really were a lot of mourning rituals back then. Her flowers do not look any more real than his do. Does anybody know if photographers back then could superimpose such things? Anne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Hey Carol, I have seen plenty of post mortem shots that were not in coffins, though they were almost all if not all if young children. Many of these have the subject posed as if sleeping sometimes in its mother's arms. Usually they don't quite look right and you can therefore tell that they are dead. "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Carol Kocian Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:52 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I've heard of post-mortem photos that are taken of the person in a coffin. Are there other examples of them with a dead person posed sitting up? There is something on the side of her head which could be a barrette or could be a head prop or rest of some sort. It does not look like it would be sturdy enough if she was dead. I agree that her eyes do look focused. There could be other reasons why it does not follow the conventions most wedding photos of the time, for example a disability preventing hand positions, an arranged marriage or cultural reasons why they would not be touching. -Carol /listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
My experience with photographs is mostly earlier (I am a wet plate photographer and this is almost certainly dry plate) but I agree with you. I do not believe that this is a post mortem photograph at all. Here is the seller's reasoning. "The bride in the photo is clearly deceased. Her hands are in rigor mortis, while most brides hands touch, or are on their spouses shoulder. The man in the photo is not touching her and most importantly the flowers on her lap are attached to a ribbon across her lap, most likely holding her in place. If she was alive she would be holding them herself. The flowers are also dead, and not living flowers. She is not holding a live bouquet & she has a strange stare to her eyes. She is not looking in the same place the man is, and the man clearly looks upset." Okay, may answers to this. First off, nearly all post mortem shots show the eyes closed. They are usually children, but I could see why a new bride might be remembered this way. Usually you can tell the subject is dead, I find them sort of creepy because of that, but I have seen a few were it isn't so clear. I see no reason to suspect the hands are in rigor mortis, and if they are the rest of the body certainly isn't. Her pose makes that clear. In fact the right arm is bent, resting on the chair arm and is hanging there. As to Edwardian Brides hands touching, I do not know. I have seen hands in all sorts of positions. I have NOT seen a lot of obviously bridal photos however. Again I suspect that has to due with my research being more Victorian than Edwardian. Her hand could NOPT be on the gentleman's shoulder however, as she is sitting and he standing. In fact that is perhaps the greatest evidence in favor of this being post mortem. In my period with a couple it is usually the MAN sitting, though that is always the case and hardly conclusive. Besides today we would usually sit the woman, that obviously changed sometime and it might well have been with the Edwardians. I am no expert on Edwardian Wedding Photos and this woman claimed to be, so I did a quick search of other auctions and found only one other Edwardian. http://cgi.ebay.com/STUNNING-Edwardian-Wedding-Photo-BRIDE-Girls-Long-Curls_ W0QQitemZ380202433976QQcmdZViewItemQQptZArt_Photo_Images?hash=item5885d4bdb8 Here it isn't clear where the brides left hand is and therefore if it is touching the right because of the bouquet. It might be. There is another couple in the shot as well, who are not touching at all. Frankly, I do not think this seller has any real expertise in period shots and is making assumptions based upon modern practices. That the man isn't touching her doesn't impress me at all. The other Groom isn't touching his wife either. If he is willing to pose with a corpse why would anyone suppose he wouldn't be willing to touch her? In fact there often is this sort of contact in post mortem shots. The flowers are interesting. In this shot not knowing what kind of flowers they are I don't think we can really know if they are dead or not. Even if they are old, which isn't all that odd this is obviously a studio shot and almost certainly NOT taken at the wedding it proves little. It does seem odd to me that she isn't holding them and that may be evidence for post mortem. I do not see that they are fastened to the ribbon, which is certainly a part of the dress and doesn't seem to be at able to hold a corpse up. It appears to be around her was it and not around the chair. Along the same line, look at that long slender neck holding her head perfectly upright. Nothing but her neck his supporting that head, which to me makes it perfectly clear that she is alive. My wife supposed that they may have been using a photographer's head clamp. If they had it would have been visible in this shot, but besides they don't really do that. They cannot hold your head up, they can't even really hold your head still, they are more a reminder that you are moving. Her stare doesn't seem odd at all for period photography, it isn't clear to me that she is looking somewhere else than her husband, but then even if she is that doesn't mean much. More of a photographer's error than anything else, whether or not the subject is alive. I don't see any sign that her husband is upset either. Half of his face is hidden and period shots do not usually show much emotion. I think this is a nice cabinet card, I don't think it is worth what it is already selling for, and I think both subjects were alive when it was shot. "I'm your huckleberry" Ron Carnegie r.carne...@verizon.net -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Dianne Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:19 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you t
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I've heard of post-mortem photos that are taken of the person in a coffin. Are there other examples of them with a dead person posed sitting up? There is something on the side of her head which could be a barrette or could be a head prop or rest of some sort. It does not look like it would be sturdy enough if she was dead. I agree that her eyes do look focused. There could be other reasons why it does not follow the conventions most wedding photos of the time, for example a disability preventing hand positions, an arranged marriage or cultural reasons why they would not be touching. -Carol On Feb 6, 2010, at 4:45 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: If you look at the dress, the ribbon that the seller says is "holding her up" is clearly a ribbon at the waist. If it was holding her up it would have to go under the veil, but it doesn't look as if it is doing that. This looks like any other photo of this period, in which the sitters had to sit still for a long time while the exposure was being made. Who would want a picture of a dead woman bride and what reputable photographer (as this seems to be) would agree to do that? The flowers might be in her lap because she couldn't hold them still and they would have blurred otherwise. And to me, the woman appears to be focused on something, probably not the same thing the man was focused on, but who cares? I don't think dead people's eyelids are up like that, either. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:30 AM To: h-costume Subject: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Dianne, that's an oh-come-now. :) The seller is ignorant. The bride is not necessarily relaxed, but sitting that way because of her gown and corset. She is leaning slightly back, but her corset doesn't allow her a bend at the waist. The flowers are probably not photoshopped; she is holding the ends of the stems, which are visible. They do stick up and look weird. I see nothing exceptional at all about the shot. YMMV! == Marjorie Wilser =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= "Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW http://3toad.blogspot.com/ On Feb 6, 2010, at 5:18 AM, Dianne wrote: I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338>> I don't believe this is a post mortem photo. I don't think that woman looks dead, she has the same rigid posture as almost any photo taken at that time--sitting utterly still for that long would not be conducive to a relaxed posture! The flowers do look off, but I believe brides and grooms often posed for their wedding portrait some time after the ceremony, so it could be her bouquet had been dried for preservation. Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338>> I don't believe this is a post mortem photo. I don't think that woman looks dead, she has the same rigid posture as almost any photo taken at that time--sitting utterly still for that long would not be conducive to a relaxed posture! The flowers do look off, but I believe brides and grooms often posed for their wedding portrait some time after the ceremony, so it could be her bouquet had been dried for preservation. Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Thanks for that info. The only ones that I knew of looked like they were taken at the wake. Onaree On 2/6/10, Beteena Paradise wrote: > There have been pictures of them sitting in chairs. But that woman is > obviously alive. > > > > > > From: Onaree Berard > To: Historical Costume > Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 12:32:26 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? > > I don't think that this is a postmortem photo. > > I did read (I think it was a book or article) that very early in > photography there were photos of dead people done (or people who the > family might never see again in life -- Civil War soldiers being a > great example) but they were always lying down, not made to look > alive. > > Onaree > > On 2/6/10, Penny Ladnier wrote: >> I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride >> photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the >> seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. >> >> Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) >> Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites >> www.costumegallery.com >> 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history >> ___ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> > > > -- > Proud List Mom of Irish_Crochet_Lovers > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irish_Crochet_Lovers/ > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- Proud List Mom of Irish_Crochet_Lovers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irish_Crochet_Lovers/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
There have been pictures of them sitting in chairs. But that woman is obviously alive. From: Onaree Berard To: Historical Costume Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 12:32:26 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I don't think that this is a postmortem photo. I did read (I think it was a book or article) that very early in photography there were photos of dead people done (or people who the family might never see again in life -- Civil War soldiers being a great example) but they were always lying down, not made to look alive. Onaree On 2/6/10, Penny Ladnier wrote: > I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride > photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the > seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. > > Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) > Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites > www.costumegallery.com > 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- Proud List Mom of Irish_Crochet_Lovers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irish_Crochet_Lovers/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
Her posture is unusually relaxed, but her eyes are far more alive than most other brides´ of that time. And I agree, the flowers look like put into the photo later - they seem to float in the air somewhere in front of her belt and nowhere attached. Or do I just not see the ribbon? Wouldn´t the groom wear at least a black ribbon around his arm if she were dead? I thought there were so many clothing rituals with mourning in those times... Hanna At 13:32 06.02.2010, you wrote: I don't think that this is a postmortem photo. I did read (I think it was a book or article) that very early in photography there were photos of dead people done (or people who the family might never see again in life -- Civil War soldiers being a great example) but they were always lying down, not made to look alive. Onaree On 2/6/10, Penny Ladnier wrote: > I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride > photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the > seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. > > Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) > Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites > www.costumegallery.com > 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- Proud List Mom of Irish_Crochet_Lovers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irish_Crochet_Lovers/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
I don't think that this is a postmortem photo. I did read (I think it was a book or article) that very early in photography there were photos of dead people done (or people who the family might never see again in life -- Civil War soldiers being a great example) but they were always lying down, not made to look alive. Onaree On 2/6/10, Penny Ladnier wrote: > I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride > photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the > seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. > > Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) > Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites > www.costumegallery.com > 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- Proud List Mom of Irish_Crochet_Lovers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irish_Crochet_Lovers/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
In a message dated 2/6/2010 4:45:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, sha...@collierfam.com writes: Who would want a picture of a dead woman bride and what reputable photographer (as this seems to be) would agree to do that? People DID take pictures of their dead babies--I have seen some. But I've never heard of a dead bride. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
If you look at the dress, the ribbon that the seller says is "holding her up" is clearly a ribbon at the waist. If it was holding her up it would have to go under the veil, but it doesn't look as if it is doing that. This looks like any other photo of this period, in which the sitters had to sit still for a long time while the exposure was being made. Who would want a picture of a dead woman bride and what reputable photographer (as this seems to be) would agree to do that? The flowers might be in her lap because she couldn't hold them still and they would have blurred otherwise. And to me, the woman appears to be focused on something, probably not the same thing the man was focused on, but who cares? I don't think dead people's eyelids are up like that, either. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:30 AM To: h-costume Subject: [h-cost] Is this real or not? I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?
On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 04:29:43 -0500 "Penny Ladnier" wrote: I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. she does seem to be in a weird pose, but her face certainly doesn't look like that of a dead person. I'll be interested to see what others say about the ribbon/flowers. The ribbon doesn't look like it's original to the dress, but those flowers almost look photoshopped. Denise B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Is this real or not?
I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not? Read the description the seller has of the bride. The item number is 380202466338. Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
