RE: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
Thank you for reminding me of the Dutch paints, I had forgotten about them. :) Though I am bias I do not think that my post was flaming. Your statement is not the first time I have heard about comparison of weight from the Renaissance to modern. I may have assumed that you had read the article that someone told me about a few months back. I may not be a big wompin' momma but I come in a close second, so it isn't a weight issue, it's an information issue, with me. I don't think that it matters of the size of the woman but I think you are correct about poor fit, and poor information. My friend who is into fetish and historic costume corsetry once told me many of the women she encounters from RenFairs have ill-fitted corsets.(roughly 60% have the wrong century corset) She has had women come to her and ask how can she wear that corset because they wore a corset for a RenFaire and was so uncomfortable. After explaining proper fit, she would offer to either fit them with a store bought corset or make one. 99% of those who take up her offer are satisfied with the results. I hear many think that the bawdy look is the norm and rampantly crosses the classes. Many assume that the head costumer is well read in historic costuming (usually they are) there are also those that show up to the RenFaire who have copied a gown that they saw at the faire the previous year not knowing whether it is period or another person perpetuating another person's fantasy. And then there are the major pattern companies and their Renaissance patterns that don't help the matter. Now this is my opinion and doesn't mean that it is 100% fact. De -Original Message- That was my post, and I didn't read an article to come to that conclusion. In fact, it wasn't a conclusion, really, just a toss it out there idea, based on my own personal experience and observation. I'm aware of the paintings in which fleshier women appear (some of the Dutch ones in that same time period show the same sort of voluptuousness, too), but when you look at the nudes, it always seems to come down to an exaggeration of the sitter's hips/thighs. It's also an obsession that didn't show up everywhere, even in Europe, and certainly didn't maintain its presence in later centuries. I don't seem to recall something similar showing up at all until the lateish 19th century. I'm really trying to avoid starting some sort of hot-and-bothered, flaming thread here. It's not my business to be berating modern people for weight issues, and I wouldn't, anyways, having suffered from society's reaction to my own shape most of my life. So no value judgements. I was just wondering if the reason some of us see so many badly fitting bodices on women now is a combination of many of the women simply being larger, combined with some amount of bad taste, and a fair quantity of misinformation. I've done a lot of historical costuming over the last 2 decades (much of it for myself), and I know how many fittings of patterns and whatnot I've had to do to get the right look with my modern body. --Sue, in grey pre-dawn Montana, where it looks like our unseasonably warm weather has gone away again, alas! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
Gack! I wasn't, really, trying to aim the flaming reference at you! Heavens, no. I'm sorry that wasn't clear (mea culpa!). What I was trying to say, in my clumsy/wordy fashion, was that I really didn't want this thread to degenerate into another tirade on fat Americans. We've had those on this list, unfortunately, and I'd be pretty content if they didn't occur in the future. I'm laughing at your description of a big wompin' mama weg. I qualify, although I'm more fire-plug shaped, being short and not amazonian-tall. ;o) I don't have much experience at all with RenFaires (they just don't occur in my part of the world, so what I know is all 2nd-hand), but I've seen plenty of the same sort of ill-fitting bodices and bad information occur at SCA events. Not at all familiar with the article you're mentioning--if you remember more specifics, it'd be great if you'd post them. I'd like to read it. --Sue - Original Message - From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:23 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms Thank you for reminding me of the Dutch paints, I had forgotten about them. :) Though I am bias I do not think that my post was flaming. Your statement is not the first time I have heard about comparison of weight from the Renaissance to modern. I may have assumed that you had read the article that someone told me about a few months back. I may not be a big wompin' momma but I come in a close second, so it isn't a weight issue, it's an information issue, with me. I don't think that it matters of the size of the woman but I think you are correct about poor fit, and poor information. My friend who is into fetish and historic costume corsetry once told me many of the women she encounters from RenFairs have ill-fitted corsets.(roughly 60% have the wrong century corset) She has had women come to her and ask how can she wear that corset because they wore a corset for a RenFaire and was so uncomfortable. After explaining proper fit, she would offer to either fit them with a store bought corset or make one. 99% of those who take up her offer are satisfied with the results. I hear many think that the bawdy look is the norm and rampantly crosses the classes. Many assume that the head costumer is well read in historic costuming (usually they are) there are also those that show up to the RenFaire who have copied a gown that they saw at the faire the previous year not knowing whether it is period or another person perpetuating another person's fantasy. And then there are the major pattern companies and their Renaissance patterns that don't help the matter. Now this is my opinion and doesn't mean that it is 100% fact. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
Oh, okay. :) I don't recall the magazine she said it came from I just remember that what my friend relayed to me sounded like the person didn't do very good research. Also had the myth in the article about people in the Renaissance never bathing. De -Original Message- Gack! I wasn't, really, trying to aim the flaming reference at you! Heavens, no. I'm sorry that wasn't clear (mea culpa!). What I was trying to say, in my clumsy/wordy fashion, was that I really didn't want this thread to degenerate into another tirade on fat Americans. We've had those on this list, unfortunately, and I'd be pretty content if they didn't occur in the future. I'm laughing at your description of a big wompin' mama weg. I qualify, although I'm more fire-plug shaped, being short and not amazonian-tall. ;o) I don't have much experience at all with RenFaires (they just don't occur in my part of the world, so what I know is all 2nd-hand), but I've seen plenty of the same sort of ill-fitting bodices and bad information occur at SCA events. Not at all familiar with the article you're mentioning--if you remember more specifics, it'd be great if you'd post them. I'd like to read it. --Sue ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
The big bosom thing is something I've been wondering about for a while too. I've seen very few portraits, if any, that show women with large breasts pre-19th C even in portraits where the women are robust. Clothing styles definately didn't encourage large bosoms, I know a lot of women who have trouble making garb that fits. They either use a princess style cut, which isn't appropriate, or squish themselves (which is not flattering or, I imagine, comfortable) Could large breasts be a modern occurance? Our food is pumped full of hormones and other chemicals. In the last few decades, girls are physically maturing faster than they used too. My friends and I started menstrating around 14-15 years old, now girls are 11-12. In the past, ideal beauty may have been small breasts as compared to now, where bigger is not big enough (I was so born in the wrong century); but not all portraits were idealized. Wendy --- On Sat 12/31, Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Sue Clemenger [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:59:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms Just a bit of wonderingIn addition to Sheer Bad Taste (tm) andbrinaccurate information on the part of a fair number of modern reenactors andbrRenFairies, could some of the TOAP effect be coming from our larger bodies?brI'm not referring to the largely mythicalbrwe're-so-much-taller-than-they-were idea, but the reality of a lot of 21stbrcentury Americans being, well, *koff* heavier than optimal health would havebrus. Myself included, so no slam meant. You get somebody who's well-endowedbrto begin with, like me, and add some overweight to it, and I *can't* avoidbrhaving a shelf. Even in a modern bra, I've got a shelf. In a corset,brthough, it's quite a bit more obvious, especially when compared to the samebrarea on a woman less rounded and endowed.brThe best (historical) support I've had that didn't present a huge shelf wasbrthe shell for the fitted gown from Robin's workshop. I suspect that's frombra different sort of support/compression going on than with a corset.brOh, and Happy New Year, everyone! ;o)br--Sue in foggy-drippy Montanabrbr- Original Message -brFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]brTo: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED]brSent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 2:08 PMbrSubject: [h-cost] Re: Bosomsbrbrbrbr I think of the melons on a platter in the 18th Century, not Elizabethan,br as the corsets are shaped differently. The Renn and Elizabethan arebr more tubular in shape to the 18thC cone shape that gives you a higherbr bustline. That and the 18thC women showed them off a bit more thanbr earlier women, what with the partlets of the earliers times.brbr It depends on what you mean by melons on a platter. In both timebr periods, I think you see a lot more at Ren Faires and reenactmentsbr than the ideal for the time period. 18thC is supposed to producebr pleasing mounds, and I have not seen paintings where they show abr cleavage line (the actual line from breasts pressed together).br Winterthur Museum in Delaware has a portrait of a lady who is ratherbr large busted, and still no line! Bet she wasn't like that in realbr life, but we're talking about the ideal.brbr And while Elizabethans had partlets, 18thC have handkerchiefs, abr folded square or triangle of cloth that covers the shoulders andbr bosom. Sometimes they were sheer and some were embroidered. Wearingbr one depended on time of day and age. They protect from the sun, andbr young women would tend to go without while those with wrinkles couldbr keep covered.brbr And in both centuries there was a gamut of class distinctions,br ethnicities, yadda yadda.brbr -Carolbrbrbr___brh-costume mailing listbrh-costume@mail.indra.combrhttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costumebr ___ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
You get somebody who's well-endowed to begin with, like me, and add some overweight to it, and I *can't* avoid having a shelf. Even in a modern bra, I've got a shelf. In a corset, though, it's quite a bit more obvious, especially when compared to the same area on a woman less rounded and endowed. I can understand your point. We are a bit heavier in general, but I think it'd effect the cleavage line than anything. You are getting a shelf in you corset because it doesn't fit quite right, comercial pattern? Your modern bra is because of the same problem. Often times comercial pattern makers will scale up from the perfect sixe 12 manikin. Not many people are that perfect. Store bought bras are the same way. They don't actually make my size in bra...a 34DDD1/2, so I usually have the four boob effect, or the band moves around too much, or I alter. For your corset, try raising the front a bit. Make a mock up, too long in height from the armhole depth line up. Try it on, adjust where you want your breasts to sit, and then get someone else to mark your top of corset line. You should have a nice rounding, but no spillage/shelving. Hope that helps, and I'm not offending anyone. Kelly/estela ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
A few years ago I read a research study discussing the effects of diet on body shape, if I remember right it was about modern diet but touched on historic times (I might have that reversed) today's diet is much higher in fat (which we don't burn off) and women do in fact have proportionally larger breasts. I believe if you look at older standardized size charts that can be confirmed. Combine that with the numerous chemicals which we consume with estrogen-like properties and it really does seem like breasts are getting larger. Look at a bunch of 16 years old girls - twig thin and huge bustlines, my friends didn't look like that 25 years ago. One of the differences between the early American diet and the European diet was also the amount of fat (more meat being available to the average person in the U.S. in the 18th 19th centuries). Supposedly the first generation of women raised here had larger breast than their mother's did, one generation is too fast for it to be genetic. I'll see if I can find the article so I've got citations. Beth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wendy Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 11:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms The big bosom thing is something I've been wondering about for a while too. I've seen very few portraits, if any, that show women with large breasts pre-19th C even in portraits where the women are robust. Clothing styles definately didn't encourage large bosoms, I know a lot of women who have trouble making garb that fits. They either use a princess style cut, which isn't appropriate, or squish themselves (which is not flattering or, I imagine, comfortable) Could large breasts be a modern occurance? Our food is pumped full of hormones and other chemicals. In the last few decades, girls are physically maturing faster than they used too. My friends and I started menstrating around 14-15 years old, now girls are 11-12. In the past, ideal beauty may have been small breasts as compared to now, where bigger is not big enough (I was so born in the wrong century); but not all portraits were idealized. Wendy --- On Sat 12/31, Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Sue Clemenger [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:59:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms Just a bit of wonderingIn addition to Sheer Bad Taste (tm) andbrinaccurate information on the part of a fair number of modern reenactors andbrRenFairies, could some of the TOAP effect be coming from our larger bodies?brI'm not referring to the largely mythicalbrwe're-so-much-taller-than-they-were idea, but the reality of a lot of 21stbrcentury Americans being, well, *koff* heavier than optimal health would havebrus. Myself included, so no slam meant. You get somebody who's well-endowedbrto begin with, like me, and add some overweight to it, and I *can't* avoidbrhaving a shelf. Even in a modern bra, I've got a shelf. In a corset,brthough, it's quite a bit more obvious, especially when compared to the samebrarea on a woman less rounded and endowed.brThe best (historical) support I've had that didn't present a huge shelf wasbrthe shell for the fitted gown from Robin's workshop. I suspect that's frombra different sort of support/compression going on than with a corset.brOh, and Happy New Year, everyone! ;o)br--Sue in foggy-drippy Montanabrbr- Original Message -brFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]brTo: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED]brSent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 2:08 PMbrSubject: [h-cost] Re: Bosomsbrbrbrbr I think of the melons on a platter in the 18th Century, not Elizabethan,br as the corsets are shaped differently. The Renn and Elizabethan arebr more tubular in shape to the 18thC cone shape that gives you a higherbr bustline. That and the 18thC women showed them off a bit more thanbr earlier women, what with the partlets of the earliers times.brbr It depends on what you mean by melons on a platter. In both timebr periods, I think you see a lot more at Ren Faires and reenactmentsbr than the ideal for the time period. 18thC is supposed to producebr pleasing mounds, and I have not seen paintings where they show abr cleavage line (the actual line from breasts pressed together).br Winterthur Museum in Delaware has a portrait of a lady who is ratherbr large busted, and still no line! Bet she wasn't like that in realbr life, but we're talking about the ideal.brbr And while Elizabethans had partlets, 18thC have handkerchiefs, abr folded square or triangle of cloth that covers the shoulders andbr bosom. Sometimes they were sheer and some were embroidered. Wearingbr one depended on time of day and age. They protect from the sun, andbr young women would tend to go without while those with wrinkles couldbr keep covered.brbr And in both centuries there was a gamut of class distinctions,br ethnicities, yadda yadda.brbr
Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
Uh, nope. Custom-made corset (by me, and it's fair to say that I know what I'm doing with 16th century costuming, at least for myself...got recognized for it mumblety-mumble years ago with an SCA peerage). It's more the effect that proper lift and support will have on a 56G chest. weg I do get minor spillage (*koff*) if the outfit I'm wearing isn't properly fitted, or if I've wiggled the corset too low, but the shelf's there, regardless. There's just too much to squish flat into the proper 16th century silhouette. Or 21st century, for that matter. I'm not quite this large (thank goodness!) at a lower weight, but structurally, the ratio remains the same. No offense taken, either, over your advice. Many of us appreciate hearing about different fitting techniques! ;o) --Sue - Original Message - From: kelly grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms You get somebody who's well-endowed to begin with, like me, and add some overweight to it, and I *can't* avoid having a shelf. Even in a modern bra, I've got a shelf. In a corset, though, it's quite a bit more obvious, especially when compared to the same area on a woman less rounded and endowed. I can understand your point. We are a bit heavier in general, but I think it'd effect the cleavage line than anything. You are getting a shelf in you corset because it doesn't fit quite right, comercial pattern? Your modern bra is because of the same problem. Often times comercial pattern makers will scale up from the perfect sixe 12 manikin. Not many people are that perfect. Store bought bras are the same way. They don't actually make my size in bra...a 34DDD1/2, so I usually have the four boob effect, or the band moves around too much, or I alter. For your corset, try raising the front a bit. Make a mock up, too long in height from the armhole depth line up. Try it on, adjust where you want your breasts to sit, and then get someone else to mark your top of corset line. You should have a nice rounding, but no spillage/shelving. Hope that helps, and I'm not offending anyone. Kelly/estela ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
You get somebody who's well-endowed to begin with, like me, and add some overweight to it, and I *can't* avoid having a shelf. Maybe. But a shelf in itself doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when they overflow over the top of the bodice, or when the bodice is cut so low they actually fall out. Or when they push their breasts high enough that they end up higher than their armpits. I mean... with a correctly cut and sized corset, the most you'll get is a horizontal plane on top... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
That would be the Truly Bad Taste (tm) part g. --Sue - Original Message - From: Audrey Bergeron-Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms You get somebody who's well-endowed to begin with, like me, and add some overweight to it, and I *can't* avoid having a shelf. Maybe. But a shelf in itself doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when they overflow over the top of the bodice, or when the bodice is cut so low they actually fall out. Or when they push their breasts high enough that they end up higher than their armpits. I mean... with a correctly cut and sized corset, the most you'll get is a horizontal plane on top... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
You do have these http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/ApotheosisDetail.jpg http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/Montemezzano2.jpg note she is a bit hunched over. http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/BassanoConcert1.jpg http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/MadonnadelleRose.jpg among the working class http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk8.html http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk9.html The thing is that these are all Italian. There are a rare few Landsknecht. I have a hard time finding the sort of squeezed melons on a platter in other countries until the early to mid 1600s. I think that the reason that women from the RenFaires like to wear the MoaP is because 1. they are told the myth that that is how it was worn and 2. It makes them feel a bit sexy. A note on a previous post about modern women having bigger breast and heavier weight then they did back when. I don't think that the person who wrote the article you read had a look at late 1500s Italian paintings. IMO De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms
Just a bit of wonderingIn addition to Sheer Bad Taste (tm) and inaccurate information on the part of a fair number of modern reenactors and RenFairies, could some of the TOAP effect be coming from our larger bodies? I'm not referring to the largely mythical we're-so-much-taller-than-they-were idea, but the reality of a lot of 21st century Americans being, well, *koff* heavier than optimal health would have us. Myself included, so no slam meant. You get somebody who's well-endowed to begin with, like me, and add some overweight to it, and I *can't* avoid having a shelf. Even in a modern bra, I've got a shelf. In a corset, though, it's quite a bit more obvious, especially when compared to the same area on a woman less rounded and endowed. The best (historical) support I've had that didn't present a huge shelf was the shell for the fitted gown from Robin's workshop. I suspect that's from a different sort of support/compression going on than with a corset. Oh, and Happy New Year, everyone! ;o) --Sue in foggy-drippy Montana - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 2:08 PM Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bosoms I think of the melons on a platter in the 18th Century, not Elizabethan, as the corsets are shaped differently. The Renn and Elizabethan are more tubular in shape to the 18thC cone shape that gives you a higher bustline. That and the 18thC women showed them off a bit more than earlier women, what with the partlets of the earliers times. It depends on what you mean by melons on a platter. In both time periods, I think you see a lot more at Ren Faires and reenactments than the ideal for the time period. 18thC is supposed to produce pleasing mounds, and I have not seen paintings where they show a cleavage line (the actual line from breasts pressed together). Winterthur Museum in Delaware has a portrait of a lady who is rather large busted, and still no line! Bet she wasn't like that in real life, but we're talking about the ideal. And while Elizabethans had partlets, 18thC have handkerchiefs, a folded square or triangle of cloth that covers the shoulders and bosom. Sometimes they were sheer and some were embroidered. Wearing one depended on time of day and age. They protect from the sun, and young women would tend to go without while those with wrinkles could keep covered. And in both centuries there was a gamut of class distinctions, ethnicities, yadda yadda. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
