Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[cschmitt]

On Wed 08/04/30 14:44 , Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
> I'm sorry, I have no idea what that is. Is it a magazine? A pattern 
> book? Where would I find a copy?

"Der Bazar" was a German fashion magazine. The only copies I know of are in the 
New York Public Library or in private collections. 
Individual fashion plates appear in other secondary sources. 

> Unfortunately, there are no dates given for the women's wear, which is 
> the majority of the collection, and what I'd be wearing if I made any of 
> these dresses.

Feel free to contact me off-list and I'll be happy to share my thoughts on 
dates. \

> Thanks Carolann. To my untrained eye they all look pretty much the same.

The differences in men's clothing are more subtle than women's, but they're 
there. Same offer if you'd like to discuss men's 
clothing. 

Carolann Schmitt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 6-9, 2008



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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[MaisondeHadley]

 
In a message dated 4/30/2008 9:36:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Can  anyone give me a date for these new patterns other than "Civil War" 
era?  Has anyone tracked down the fashion plates that inspired these to 
give a  more specific year?


To add to what Carolann said about postings on another list, the yellow  
dress supposidly came from a pattern in der Bazaar.  The green dress in  #2887 
is 
also an original pattern, but date and publication remaining  anonymous.
 
In terms of accuracy, I'd be extremely hesitant to use #2887 for a Civil  War 
dress, even when made out of the proper fabric.  I've personally seen  these 
princess line dresses in a few CDVs here and there, but I can't say that  I've 
ever seen an original.  I know the pattern Heidi Marsh used for her  
"polonaise traveling dress" came out of Peterson's, 1861, but there again, I've 
 never 
seen an original.
 
It really is lovely, but I think it would be better suited, altered to a  
slim coat sleeve, for post-Civil War applications, or as a nice wrapper.
 
~Joseph



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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Dawn]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A post on another list indicated the patterns by Kay Gnagey are taken from 
> drafts in "Der Bazar". 
>   
I'm sorry, I have no idea what that is. Is it a magazine? A pattern 
book? Where would I find a copy?

> Why not contact the designers and ask? Martha McCain is a member of this 
> list. 
I have, and sadly received no response.

> A summary of some of her research for her men's 
> patterns, including photos of the original garments, is posted on 
> Simplicity's web site. 
>   
Unfortunately, there are no dates given for the women's wear, which is 
the majority of the collection, and what I'd be wearing if I made any of 
these dresses.

> The new men's pattern by "Buckaroo Bobbins" seems to be rather "generic" - 
> combining details from several decades to create 
> an "impression". Looking at the information on the web site, I can see 
> significant differences between it and the earlier patterns 
Thanks Carolann. To my untrained eye they all look pretty much the same.





Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Abel, Cynthia]

Thanks for the link to Kay's site!! Yum Yum!

See this link on Kay's site:
http://www.originals-by-kay.com/custom%20work%20studio/galleryballg.htm

It may be the dress shown on the front of the Simplicity yellow ball
gown, I bet. I have Frances Grimble's "Reconstruction Era Fashions" that
shows bodices and skirts from Harper's Bazaar patterns much like this
gown.

Cindy Abel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:26 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

On Wed 08/04/30 13:35 , Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
> Can anyone give me a date for these new patterns other than "Civil
War" era? Has anyone tracked down the fashion plates that 
inspired these to give a more specific year?

A post on another list indicated the patterns by Kay Gnagey are taken
from drafts in "Der Bazar". 

> I'm also interested in dating the previous sets of Simplicity
patterns, if there's someone who can provide better knowledge of 
the period.

Why not contact the designers and ask? Martha McCain is a member of this
list. A summary of some of her research for her men's 
patterns, including photos of the original garments, is posted on
Simplicity's web site. I've found her designs to be very accurate 
for the Civil War era. It's unfortunate Simplicity did not use her
excellent instructions. Simplicity should be able to provide 
contact information for the other designer(s).

> Someone said the men's pattern looked 1880's. How can you tell? To me
it looks a lot like the previous set of men's "civil war" 
patterns.

The new men's pattern by "Buckaroo Bobbins" seems to be rather "generic"
- combining details from several decades to create 
an "impression". Looking at the information on the web site, I can see
significant differences between it and the earlier patterns 
by Martha McCain, which are very accurate for the era.  

Carolann Schmitt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 6-9, 2008





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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Abel, Cynthia]

Lynn: I thought the waist position on the pattern illustrated by the
yellow ballgown was odd, too. But I would check photographs and fashion
plates of the era both. I couldn't say either way, since the Civil War
isn't my era of expertise. I would trust photographic evidence more than
fashion plates. Few women could look as good in the fashions as shown in
the fashion plates. See photographs of Mary Todd Lincoln during her
years as First Lady as an example and also Queen Victoria before Prince
Albert's death Older women would cling to the styles of their youth or
adapt newer styles to what was comfortable for them. A waistline set at
least lower in front would appear more slimming to all figure types and
the smaller the waist, the more attractive the figure, even today. In my
very limited knowledge the round waist, often with sash, seems to have
been more prevalent in the late 1820's to mid 1830's than the early-mid
1860's. Even for women who could afford the latest styles as shown in
Godey's Ladies Magazine could be not as up-to-date as their European
counterparts as Godey's and other American publications published plates
of the latest fashions months or as much as a year later than European
magazines because of the perceived view of American women as being more
conservative, or less concerned with changes in fashion. A "good"
American or English woman was not supposed to be as fascinated with
fashion as their more frivolous European(read French)counterpart. And in
reality, the average Frenchwoman considered nouveau riche English and
Americans far more concerned with Dame Fashion than she was. Bottom line
was that few women could actually afford couture from the top designers
in France, probably even less than today.

After 1860, however, the waistline was preparing to drop into the
eventual princess-cut of the 1870's. Cutting waistlines lower in front
than back, apron-like overskirts and drapes, and tabbed extensions below
the fitted and/or belted waistline were more common as the crinolined
skirt started to change from the all-around bell shape to more fullness
in back after 1860.

Cindy Abel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lynn Downward
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:17 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

Vicky Simpson asked if they have the correct period look. It's really
hard
to say, Vicky, when you're looking at a tiny picture on a computer
screen.
However, the waist seam on the day dress is lower than the natural waist
and
I made a mental note to check position on all the other seams too. I
haven't
seen any photographs of Victorian/Civil Way era dresses with a waist
lower
than a natural waist, although earlier in the period the waist was
shorter.

I say all that, but I don't believe that I'm the be-all to end-all in
the
research world. I'm sure someone else will be able to give more
information.

LynnD



On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Sharon Henderson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Oh yummy... 2887 done in grey silk taffeta with gold silk cuffs and
> trims would be scrumptious for a Confederate cavalry officer's lady,
> now wouldn't it??  :)
>
> Yes, I'll be shopping come sale time tomorrow  :)
>
> Thanks for posting the simplicity link!
>
> Sharon/Meli
> Virginia girl by inclination and carpetbag
> :)
>  ___
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[cschmitt]

On Wed 08/04/30 13:35 , Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
> Can anyone give me a date for these new patterns other than "Civil War" era? 
> Has anyone tracked down the fashion plates that 
inspired these to give a more specific year?

A post on another list indicated the patterns by Kay Gnagey are taken from 
drafts in "Der Bazar". 

> I'm also interested in dating the previous sets of Simplicity patterns, if 
> there's someone who can provide better knowledge of 
the period.

Why not contact the designers and ask? Martha McCain is a member of this list. 
A summary of some of her research for her men's 
patterns, including photos of the original garments, is posted on Simplicity's 
web site. I've found her designs to be very accurate 
for the Civil War era. It's unfortunate Simplicity did not use her excellent 
instructions. Simplicity should be able to provide 
contact information for the other designer(s).

> Someone said the men's pattern looked 1880's. How can you tell? To me it 
> looks a lot like the previous set of men's "civil war" 
patterns.

The new men's pattern by "Buckaroo Bobbins" seems to be rather "generic" - 
combining details from several decades to create 
an "impression". Looking at the information on the web site, I can see 
significant differences between it and the earlier patterns 
by Martha McCain, which are very accurate for the era.  

Carolann Schmitt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.genteelarts.com
Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 6-9, 2008





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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[LuAnn Mason]

I took a look at that one last night.  It's kind of like a vaguely 
basque-bodiced wrapper type thing.  Not saying that they DIDN'T have something 
like that back in the day, but I've never seen anything like it.  Granted, I'm 
no expert either, but in probably 300+ original garments I've examined, I've 
never seen all those elements put together in one garment.  It's more of an 
amalgam, IMO.  YMMV, of course.

LuAnn



> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:17:19 -0700
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns
> 
> Vicky Simpson asked if they have the correct period look. It's really hard
> to say, Vicky, when you're looking at a tiny picture on a computer screen.
> However, the waist seam on the day dress is lower than the natural waist and
> I made a mental note to check position on all the other seams too. I haven't
> seen any photographs of Victorian/Civil Way era dresses with a waist lower
> than a natural waist, although earlier in the period the waist was shorter.
> 
> I say all that, but I don't believe that I'm the be-all to end-all in the
> research world. I'm sure someone else will be able to give more information.
> 
> LynnD
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Sharon Henderson <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Oh yummy... 2887 done in grey silk taffeta with gold silk cuffs and
> > trims would be scrumptious for a Confederate cavalry officer's lady,
> > now wouldn't it??  :)
> >
> > Yes, I'll be shopping come sale time tomorrow  :)
> >
> > Thanks for posting the simplicity link!
> >
> > Sharon/Meli
> > Virginia girl by inclination and carpetbag
> > :)
> >  ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> ___
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Sarah Krans]

Kay Gagney actually has an online store front.  I have personally seen  
her work at it is rather good - and based on originals.  She does  
custom work as well as ready-to-wear.
Her website is:  www.originals-by-kay.com

Sarah


On Apr 30, 2008, at 12:35 PM, Dawn wrote:

> Can anyone give me a date for these new patterns other than "Civil  
> War"
> era? Has anyone tracked down the fashion plates that inspired these to
> give a more specific year?
>
> I'm also interested in dating the previous sets of Simplicity  
> patterns,
> if there's someone who can provide better knowledge of the period.
>
> Someone said the men's pattern looked 1880's. How can you tell? To  
> me it
> looks a lot like the previous set of men's "civil war" patterns.
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
> ___
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Dawn]

Can anyone give me a date for these new patterns other than "Civil War" 
era? Has anyone tracked down the fashion plates that inspired these to 
give a more specific year?

I'm also interested in dating the previous sets of Simplicity patterns, 
if there's someone who can provide better knowledge of the period.

Someone said the men's pattern looked 1880's. How can you tell? To me it 
looks a lot like the previous set of men's "civil war" patterns.



Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Lynn Downward]

Vicky Simpson asked if they have the correct period look. It's really hard
to say, Vicky, when you're looking at a tiny picture on a computer screen.
However, the waist seam on the day dress is lower than the natural waist and
I made a mental note to check position on all the other seams too. I haven't
seen any photographs of Victorian/Civil Way era dresses with a waist lower
than a natural waist, although earlier in the period the waist was shorter.

I say all that, but I don't believe that I'm the be-all to end-all in the
research world. I'm sure someone else will be able to give more information.

LynnD



On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Sharon Henderson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Oh yummy... 2887 done in grey silk taffeta with gold silk cuffs and
> trims would be scrumptious for a Confederate cavalry officer's lady,
> now wouldn't it??  :)
>
> Yes, I'll be shopping come sale time tomorrow  :)
>
> Thanks for posting the simplicity link!
>
> Sharon/Meli
> Virginia girl by inclination and carpetbag
> :)
>  ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Sharon Henderson]

Oh yummy... 2887 done in grey silk taffeta with gold silk cuffs and
trims would be scrumptious for a Confederate cavalry officer's lady,
now wouldn't it??  :)

Yes, I'll be shopping come sale time tomorrow  :)

Thanks for posting the simplicity link!

Sharon/Meli
Virginia girl by inclination and carpetbag
:)
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Vicky Simpson]

In popular opinion, do they have the correct period look?
   
  Vicky

Lynn Downward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  I swear these new patterns weren't there last night when I checked. They're
certainly there now, though. I think I prefer Laughing Moon's Man's Frock
Coat, although the shirt in that pattern looks ok.

The two dresses are really pretty. Again, I think I prefer Laughing Moon's
underwear pattern to the Simplicity one, but it's a lovely chemise.

Lynn

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:28 PM, S Young wrote:

> All these patterns pop up on eBay from time to time, so you can usually
> find
> them. I did a quick search and:
>
> http://www.farthingales.on.ca/simplicity_patterns.php
>
> Has a few of the patterns scanned with some details... I quite like
> "Simplicity 5724 Civil War Ball Dress pattern"
>
> The simplicity web site list the new patterns (2881, 2887 and 2890) right
> down the bottom of the page:
>
> http://www.simplicity.com/index.cfm?page=wnsimp.cfm
>
> I quite like the new offerings... me thinks a trip to Spotlight one lunch
> time might be in order!
>
> Sidney
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Abel, Cynthia 
> wrote:
>
> > The Simplicity website may not have been updated yet. The dress patterns
> > are 2881 and 2887. The chemise, corset and drawers pattern is 2890. Very
> > often, McCalls, Butterick, Vogue, and Simplicity new pattern books and
> > patterns are available at major fabric stores before the websites get
> > updated. Look for the "Summer" Simplicity book. My local JoAnn's in
> > Omaha, NE had it, so others must too. There is also a men's c1880's
> > gambler, Wild West, whatever pattern, maybe inspired by the movie "There
> > Will be Blood" or HBO series "Deadwood." I was kind of disappointed that
> > there were no new patterns for circa 1300-1800, with summer RenFaires.
> > Hoping the Martha McCain 18th century patterns(last I heard, she was
> > researching them as Simplicity supposedly thought the Civil War period
> > was "done).
> >
> > Cindy Abel
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of Lynn Downward
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:32 PM
> > To: Historical Costume
> > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns
> >
> > Cynthia,
> >
> > Which two patterns are you talking about as the new ones? I was on the
> > Simplicity website and didn't see anything new, even under the "New
> > Items"
> > that I hadn't seen before. Help please!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lynn
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Vicky Simpson
> > 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I didn't know that there were new ones out, or I would have been at
> > > Joann's too. Guess I'll have to wait until the next pattern sale as I
> > love
> > > the green one. I'm starting on my first civil war era dress today,
> > > Simplicity 3727. Wish me luck.
> > >
> > > Vicky
> > >
> > > Cynthia" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the
> > > two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset
> > > pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather
> > > dressy.
> > >
> > > Cindy Abel
> > > ___
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You can find me at
> > > http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007
> > > or
> > > www.southerngracedesigns.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > >
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
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You can find me at
http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007 
  or
  www.southerngracedesigns.com
  
 
  
 
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Lynn Downward]

I swear these new patterns weren't there last night when I checked. They're
certainly there now, though. I think I prefer Laughing Moon's Man's Frock
Coat, although the shirt in that pattern looks ok.

The two dresses are really pretty. Again, I think I prefer Laughing Moon's
underwear pattern to the Simplicity one, but it's a lovely chemise.

Lynn

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:28 PM, S Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> All these patterns pop up on eBay from time to time, so you can usually
> find
> them. I did a quick search and:
>
> http://www.farthingales.on.ca/simplicity_patterns.php
>
> Has a few of the patterns scanned with some details... I quite like
> "Simplicity 5724 Civil War Ball Dress pattern"
>
> The simplicity web site list the new patterns (2881, 2887 and 2890) right
> down the bottom of the page:
>
> http://www.simplicity.com/index.cfm?page=wnsimp.cfm
>
> I quite like the new offerings... me thinks a trip to Spotlight one lunch
> time might be in order!
>
> Sidney
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Abel, Cynthia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  wrote:
>
> > The Simplicity website may not have been updated yet. The dress patterns
> > are 2881 and 2887. The chemise, corset and drawers pattern is 2890. Very
> > often, McCalls, Butterick, Vogue, and Simplicity new pattern books and
> > patterns are available at major fabric stores before the websites get
> > updated. Look for the "Summer" Simplicity book. My local JoAnn's in
> > Omaha, NE had it, so others must too. There is also a men's c1880's
> > gambler, Wild West, whatever pattern, maybe inspired by the movie "There
> > Will be Blood" or HBO series "Deadwood." I was kind of disappointed that
> > there were no new patterns for circa 1300-1800, with summer RenFaires.
> > Hoping the Martha McCain 18th century patterns(last I heard, she was
> > researching them as Simplicity supposedly thought the Civil War period
> > was "done).
> >
> > Cindy Abel
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of Lynn Downward
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:32 PM
> > To: Historical Costume
> > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns
> >
> > Cynthia,
> >
> > Which two patterns are you talking about as the new ones? I was on the
> > Simplicity website and didn't see anything new, even under the "New
> > Items"
> > that I hadn't seen before. Help please!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lynn
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Vicky Simpson
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I didn't know that there were new ones out, or I would have been at
> > > Joann's too. Guess I'll have to wait until the next pattern sale as I
> > love
> > > the green one. I'm starting on my first civil war era dress today,
> > > Simplicity 3727. Wish me luck.
> > >
> > >  Vicky
> > >
> > >  Cynthia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the
> > > two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset
> > > pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather
> > > dressy.
> > >
> > > Cindy Abel
> > > ___
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You can find me at
> > > http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007
> > >  or
> > >  www.southerngracedesigns.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > >
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Visit Sid's
> "Classic Japanese Motorcycle Restoration Site"
> http://z900.piczo.com/
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[S Young]

All these patterns pop up on eBay from time to time, so you can usually find
them. I did a quick search and:

http://www.farthingales.on.ca/simplicity_patterns.php

Has a few of the patterns scanned with some details... I quite like
"Simplicity 5724 Civil War Ball Dress pattern"

The simplicity web site list the new patterns (2881, 2887 and 2890) right
down the bottom of the page:

http://www.simplicity.com/index.cfm?page=wnsimp.cfm

I quite like the new offerings... me thinks a trip to Spotlight one lunch
time might be in order!

Sidney


On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Abel, Cynthia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> The Simplicity website may not have been updated yet. The dress patterns
> are 2881 and 2887. The chemise, corset and drawers pattern is 2890. Very
> often, McCalls, Butterick, Vogue, and Simplicity new pattern books and
> patterns are available at major fabric stores before the websites get
> updated. Look for the "Summer" Simplicity book. My local JoAnn's in
> Omaha, NE had it, so others must too. There is also a men's c1880's
> gambler, Wild West, whatever pattern, maybe inspired by the movie "There
> Will be Blood" or HBO series "Deadwood." I was kind of disappointed that
> there were no new patterns for circa 1300-1800, with summer RenFaires.
> Hoping the Martha McCain 18th century patterns(last I heard, she was
> researching them as Simplicity supposedly thought the Civil War period
> was "done).
>
> Cindy Abel
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Lynn Downward
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:32 PM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns
>
> Cynthia,
>
> Which two patterns are you talking about as the new ones? I was on the
> Simplicity website and didn't see anything new, even under the "New
> Items"
> that I hadn't seen before. Help please!
>
> Thanks,
> Lynn
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Vicky Simpson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > I didn't know that there were new ones out, or I would have been at
> > Joann's too. Guess I'll have to wait until the next pattern sale as I
> love
> > the green one. I'm starting on my first civil war era dress today,
> > Simplicity 3727. Wish me luck.
> >
> >  Vicky
> >
> >  Cynthia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the
> > two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset
> > pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather
> > dressy.
> >
> > Cindy Abel
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> >
> >
> > You can find me at
> > http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007
> >  or
> >  www.southerngracedesigns.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> ___
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>



-- 


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http://z900.piczo.com/
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Abel, Cynthia]

The Simplicity website may not have been updated yet. The dress patterns
are 2881 and 2887. The chemise, corset and drawers pattern is 2890. Very
often, McCalls, Butterick, Vogue, and Simplicity new pattern books and
patterns are available at major fabric stores before the websites get
updated. Look for the "Summer" Simplicity book. My local JoAnn's in
Omaha, NE had it, so others must too. There is also a men's c1880's
gambler, Wild West, whatever pattern, maybe inspired by the movie "There
Will be Blood" or HBO series "Deadwood." I was kind of disappointed that
there were no new patterns for circa 1300-1800, with summer RenFaires.
Hoping the Martha McCain 18th century patterns(last I heard, she was
researching them as Simplicity supposedly thought the Civil War period
was "done).

Cindy Abel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lynn Downward
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:32 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

Cynthia,

Which two patterns are you talking about as the new ones? I was on the
Simplicity website and didn't see anything new, even under the "New
Items"
that I hadn't seen before. Help please!

Thanks,
Lynn

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Vicky Simpson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I didn't know that there were new ones out, or I would have been at
> Joann's too. Guess I'll have to wait until the next pattern sale as I
love
> the green one. I'm starting on my first civil war era dress today,
> Simplicity 3727. Wish me luck.
>
>  Vicky
>
>  Cynthia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the
> two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset
> pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather
> dressy.
>
> Cindy Abel
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
>
> You can find me at
> http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007
>  or
>  www.southerngracedesigns.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Zuzana Kraemerova]

If someone's ever going to try the new corset, drawers and chemise pattern 
2890, let me know the results! I was very satisfied with the 7215 corset 
pattern, so I'd like to try this one.

Zuzana



Lynn Downward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Cynthia,

Which two patterns are you talking about as the new ones? I was on the
Simplicity website and didn't see anything new, even under the "New Items"
that I hadn't seen before. Help please!

Thanks,
Lynn

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Vicky Simpson 
wrote:

> I didn't know that there were new ones out, or I would have been at
> Joann's too. Guess I'll have to wait until the next pattern sale as I love
> the green one. I'm starting on my first civil war era dress today,
> Simplicity 3727. Wish me luck.
>
>  Vicky
>
>  Cynthia"  wrote:
>
>
> Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the
> two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset
> pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather
> dressy.
>
> Cindy Abel
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
>
> You can find me at
> http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007
>  or
>  www.southerngracedesigns.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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-
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Lynn Downward]

Cynthia,

Which two patterns are you talking about as the new ones? I was on the
Simplicity website and didn't see anything new, even under the "New Items"
that I hadn't seen before. Help please!

Thanks,
Lynn

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Vicky Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I didn't know that there were new ones out, or I would have been at
> Joann's too. Guess I'll have to wait until the next pattern sale as I love
> the green one. I'm starting on my first civil war era dress today,
> Simplicity 3727. Wish me luck.
>
>  Vicky
>
>  Cynthia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the
> two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset
> pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather
> dressy.
>
> Cindy Abel
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
>
>
> You can find me at
> http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007
>  or
>  www.southerngracedesigns.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns

[Vicky Simpson]

I didn't know that there were new ones out, or I would have been at Joann's 
too. Guess I'll have to wait until the next pattern sale as I love the green 
one. I'm starting on my first civil war era dress today, Simplicity 3727. Wish 
me luck.
   
  Vicky

 Cynthia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the
two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset
pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather
dressy.

Cindy Abel
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You can find me at
http://360.yahoo.com/vickycoleen2007 
  or
  www.southerngracedesigns.com
  
 
  
 
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity Patterns

[Saragrace Knauf]

Where are you Serena?  I will be in Europe in September, I could buy them for 
you and send them.  If you are in Germany, I might even be able to hand deliver!

Sg
  - Original Message - 
  From: Serena Dyer 
  To: h-costume@mail.indra.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 4:18 PM
  Subject: [h-cost] Simplicity Patterns


  Does anyone know if the 3635 and 3637 patterns will ever be available in the 
UK?

  Thanks

  Serena
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity Patterns

[Lynn Downward]

I'd contact Simplicity if I were you. This is the webpage for
contacting them outside the US.

http://www.simplicity.com/index.cfm?page=international.html

That page says that product availability outside the US may be
different than wah appears on their website and you should email them
with questions.

Best of luck, Serena,

LynnD

On 8/10/07, Serena Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone know if the 3635 and 3637 patterns will ever be available in the 
> UK?
>
> Thanks
>
> Serena
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RE: [h-cost] Simplicity Elizabethan costume 3782

[Abel, Cynthia]

 
Yes, but I was judging just by the general cut of the pattern pieces.
Most of the commercial patterns are designed for the non SCA, non
historically accurate people who want to dress in an approximation, and
the fewer layers they wear, the more comfortable they are. I wasn't
going to slavishly copy View B or A, but use them as a guide. I usually
just get something in a modern pattern(those $1.99 pattern sales!)alter
to fit me, and then haul out Arnold and Hunnisett as help to get the cut
accurate. 

Now if we could get some last quarter of the 18th century good patterns
from Simplicity(et.al).

Cindy Abel

 

The drawback is that there isn't a smock to go under it. sleeve of "A"
has the "smock" sleeves sewn in.
Dress "B" if worn this way is closer to a Civil War gown (think
Scarlet's curtain dress) then Renaissance as the gown is suppose to be
worn over dresses like dress "A"
ex:
http://tinyurl.com/ywzo36
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Veronese1560.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/ElenoraToledo2.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/MargaretAudley.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/AnneAustria.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownLady39.jpg

There are a few portraits showing the dress under the style "B" type to
have a similar neckline as dress "A" but I can't seem to find them. Most
were "Italian"

De
-Original Message-
Personally, I rather like View B, which is a simpler gown and plan to
first use the direction diagrams enlarged and the "Tudor Tailor"
to try this out on my new 16" Ellowyne Wilde" doll. I am not good at
drafting patterns from scratch, so I use something close(a pattern that
fits me or the doll I'm dressing, the historically correct pattern, and
go laborestly from there.

Cindy Abel



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RE: [h-cost] Simplicity Elizabethan costume 3782

[otsisto]

The drawback is that there isn't a smock to go under it. sleeve of "A" has
the "smock" sleeves sewn in.
Dress "B" if worn this way is closer to a Civil War gown (think Scarlet's
curtain dress) then Renaissance as the gown is suppose to be worn over
dresses like dress "A"
ex:
http://tinyurl.com/ywzo36
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Veronese1560.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/ElenoraToledo2.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/MargaretAudley.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/AnneAustria.jpg

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownLady39.jpg

There are a few portraits showing the dress under the style "B" type to have
a similar neckline as dress "A" but I can't seem to find them. Most were
"Italian"

De
-Original Message-
Personally, I rather like View B, which is a simpler gown and plan to first
use the direction diagrams enlarged and the "Tudor Tailor"
to try this out on my new 16" Ellowyne Wilde" doll. I am not good at
drafting patterns from scratch, so I use something close(a pattern that
fits me or the doll I'm dressing, the historically correct pattern, and
go laborestly from there.

Cindy Abel



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RE: [h-cost] Simplicity early autumn catalog

[otsisto]

Jo Ann's is having their firefly sale. They have their clearance at 50% off
so I got some brocade that was orginally $14 a yd for $2.50 yd. 14 patterns,
would have gotten more but I always seem to get a headache if I stay to long
there.
De

-Original Message-
Thanks for the head's up on the Simplicity sale--I had not looked at my
JoAnn's circular, since a new mailman missed my mailbox with it and I
had to clean and dry mine.

JoAnn's might be a good place to head tomorrow, since we have the
College World Series here in Omaha, starting this weekend.

Cindy Abel


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RE: [h-cost] Simplicity early autumn catalog

[Abel, Cynthia]

Thanks for the head's up on the Simplicity sale--I had not looked at my
JoAnn's circular, since a new mailman missed my mailbox with it and I
had to clean and dry mine.

JoAnn's might be a good place to head tomorrow, since we have the
College World Series here in Omaha, starting this weekend.

Cindy Abel 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Dawn
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 10:36 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity early autumn catalog

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> And JoAnne's has the Simplicity patterns on sale $1.99 right now...
> 
> Elena/Gia

LOL! You beat me to it. They're on sale today and tomorrow (June 16 &
17) and there's also a 50% off sale on notions, scissors, and thread,
and interfacing is 4 yds/96 cents. Two days only.



Dawn


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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity early autumn catalog

[Dawn]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


And JoAnne's has the Simplicity patterns on sale $1.99 right now...

Elena/Gia


LOL! You beat me to it. They're on sale today and tomorrow (June 16 & 
17) and there's also a 50% off sale on notions, scissors, and thread, 
and interfacing is 4 yds/96 cents. Two days only.




Dawn


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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity early autumn catalog

[elena_o_tighearnaigh]

And JoAnne's has the Simplicity patterns on sale $1.99 right now...

Elena/Gia

-- Original message -- 
From: "Abel, Cynthia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> 
> 
> It may not be at your local fabric store yet, but is up at 
> www.simplicity.com 
> 
> This is for those of us who wait for those $1.99 pattern sales because 
> we want to put all of our ever-shrinking optional funds into fabric and 
> trims. 
> 
> 
> The new early Autumn catalog is up and there are a few patterns of 
> interest. 
> 
> One appears to be a modified take on Johnny Depp's costume in "Willie 
> Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" 
> 
> Another is a kimono pattern(may be older pattern with a new number and 
> the same for a Colonial/Marie Antoinette(Sophia Coppola film due out 
> this fall.) Cut on gown is definitely modern--hope Martha McCain or 
> someone has more accurate patterns out soon! 
> 
> There is also a circa 1895 ball gown that looks decent from the small 
> online pic. 
> 
> McCalls, Butterick and Vogue still have Summer 2006 catalogs up. 
> 
> Cindy Abel 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4156 - Victorian

[Katy Bishop]

There is also a very similar mid 1890's dress in Janet Arnold's
"Patterns of Fashion 2", with an applied collar instead of the jacket
front.

Katy

On 4/29/06, Lloyd Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

There is a wonderful version of this style offered by the Wisconsin museum
that is based on a garment in their collection.  I have made it several
times using variations  that can be found in the various reprinted
catalogues of that time period.  I have even made one with the particular
collar featured by #4156 (known as the Arum Lily collar).

I haven't looked at how the skirt is shaped in the Simplicity pattern.  The
Wisconsin pattern is basically three gores; The front panel nearly goes from
side to side for the hips and the two back panels finish the hip cover and
then get pleated toward the center back...with a dart or two.  The result is
a skirt that swings and swishes at the whim of the wearer.

My collection includes several of these suits so I have had a chance to
double check the design of the original pattern. Since there are no zippers,
there are several interesting variations of finishing the back placket with
hooks and eyes judiciously placed to close the skirt but not impede the
grace. (Hint, another wonderful use for stray shoulderpads!  They are just
the size of the bum pads that usually lurked under the back closing...or you
can fashion one of matching fabric.
- Original Message -
From: "Dawn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 5:03 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Simplicity 4156 - Victorian


> This is new, and Wow, I love the sleeves!
>
> http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4156/4156.jpg
>
>
> The skirt looks a bit odd to me though. Has anyone had a good look at
> this yet? Is it based on something real? I see they date it as "circa
1895".
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
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--
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.VintageVictorian.com
Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
 Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4156 - Victorian

[Lloyd Mitchell]

There is a wonderful version of this style offered by the Wisconsin museum
that is based on a garment in their collection.  I have made it several
times using variations  that can be found in the various reprinted
catalogues of that time period.  I have even made one with the particular
collar featured by #4156 (known as the Arum Lily collar).

I haven't looked at how the skirt is shaped in the Simplicity pattern.  The
Wisconsin pattern is basically three gores; The front panel nearly goes from
side to side for the hips and the two back panels finish the hip cover and
then get pleated toward the center back...with a dart or two.  The result is
a skirt that swings and swishes at the whim of the wearer.

My collection includes several of these suits so I have had a chance to
double check the design of the original pattern. Since there are no zippers,
there are several interesting variations of finishing the back placket with
hooks and eyes judiciously placed to close the skirt but not impede the
grace. (Hint, another wonderful use for stray shoulderpads!  They are just
the size of the bum pads that usually lurked under the back closing...or you
can fashion one of matching fabric.
- Original Message - 
From: "Dawn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 5:03 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Simplicity 4156 - Victorian


> This is new, and Wow, I love the sleeves!
>
> http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4156/4156.jpg
>
>
> The skirt looks a bit odd to me though. Has anyone had a good look at
> this yet? Is it based on something real? I see they date it as "circa
1895".
>
>
>
> Dawn
>
>
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4156 - Victorian

[Katy Bishop]

I love the mid-90's, the skirt on this pattern seems slightly later,
like maybe a year or three, than the bodice in shape; but maybe it's
just the trim making it look more flared than it actually is. I would
recommend, as a similar pattern, perhaps with fewer
shortcuts/adaptations for the mass market, the Patterns of History
Pattern from the State Historical Society of Wisconsin:

http://shop.wisconsinhistory.org/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=22&idproduct=279

It is a nice pattern, I've made it a couple of times.  The first time
I made it, it was chosen for a set of bridesmaids, but the bride went
on vacation before the dresses were made and the maids chose other
dresses on their own.  The bride did go ahead and have me make one
dress for her.

Katy

On 4/28/06, Dawn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

This is new, and Wow, I love the sleeves!

http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4156/4156.jpg


The skirt looks a bit odd to me though. Has anyone had a good look at
this yet? Is it based on something real? I see they date it as "circa 1895".



Dawn


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--
Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian
[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.VintageVictorian.com
Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era.
 Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books.

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Re: [h-cost] simplicity

[Kate M Bunting]

That's right - it's the French for "tail". In the UK we also use it for what 
Americans call "standing in line".

Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 22/03/2006 19:30 >>>
 
In a message dated 3/22/2006 2:15:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I seem  to recall "queue" 


That's the word! No wonder I couldn't remember how to spell it...it has 3  
different letters and 2 of them repeat in the same orderright after each  
other!
 
:-P
 
Yes, in school we called a man's  18th century wig with a pony tail a  "queue 
wig"and the bag a "queue bag".
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Re: [h-cost] simplicity

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 3/22/2006 2:15:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I seem  to recall "queue" 


That's the word! No wonder I couldn't remember how to spell it...it has 3  
different letters and 2 of them repeat in the same orderright after each  
other!
 
:-P
 
Yes, in school we called a man's  18th century wig with a pony tail a  "queue 
wig"and the bag a "queue bag".
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RE: [h-cost] simplicity

[Betsy Marshall]

I seem to recall "queue" or something similar used for the Chinese
immigrants in California.
Just my .02 lira, Betsy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:28 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicity

 

*
 
True true. Except there's no bag or "cue" [I can't remember or find
anywhere 
the real spelling of "cue" when it refers to a pony tail] in the  picture.
It 
looks very 1820s.
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RE: [h-cost] simplicity

[otsisto]

The shirt with the black "tie" looks to be Post Regency (Georgian?) 1820s or
30s. Though I don't believe this is true to the style but designed to look
like that type of shirt.
De

-Original Message-
Hi  Suzi,
Actually it could also be a broad black silk ribbon tied round the  neck
with
a bow, and attached to the wigbag in the back. That was high  fashion in
1730


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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Dawn]

Thanks Judy! I guess that answers that question. :)


Dawn


Judy Mitchell wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Um, has anybody thought about emailing and/or calling SImplicity and 
asking them what time period they intended for each shirt?




Ok, I looked at the designer's name (it's Andrea Schewe) and asked. 
the response on it is that it's essentially designed for the mass 
market, not an exact repro . The basic shapes are more closely patterned 
after a late 18C, early 19C than the McCall's similar pattern.  The 
shoulders are sloped  instead of putting in the little square gusset 
near the neck.  There are 2 sleeves.  One that has the underarm gusset 
and a larger more dramatic sleeve with the gusset worked in and elastic 
at the wrist. the kind of stock thing, was put in to add costuming 
interest. and it's aimed at the genreal market for anyone to make rather 
than the re-enactor market (that's Martha McCain's area).


Hope this helps.

-Judy Mitchell
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Judy Mitchell]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Um, has anybody thought about emailing and/or calling SImplicity and 
asking them what time period they intended for each shirt?



	Ok, I looked at the designer's name (it's Andrea Schewe) and asked. the 
response on it is that it's essentially designed for the mass market, 
not an exact repro . The basic shapes are more closely patterned after a 
late 18C, early 19C than the McCall's similar pattern.  The shoulders 
are sloped  instead of putting in the little square gusset near the 
neck.  There are 2 sleeves.  One that has the underarm gusset and a 
larger more dramatic sleeve with the gusset worked in and elastic at the 
wrist. the kind of stock thing, was put in to add costuming interest. 
and it's aimed at the genreal market for anyone to make rather than the 
re-enactor market (that's Martha McCain's area).


Hope this helps.

-Judy Mitchell
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Re: [h-cost] simplicity

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 3/21/2006 11:45:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hi  Suzi,
Actually it could also be a broad black silk ribbon tied round the  neck with 
a bow, and attached to the wigbag in the back. That was high  fashion in 1730



*
 
True true. Except there's no bag or "cue" [I can't remember or find  anywhere 
the real spelling of "cue" when it refers to a pony tail] in the  picture. It 
looks very 1820s.
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Kiloran]

Um, has anybody thought about emailing and/or calling SImplicity and asking 
them what time period they intended for each shirt?


Julie

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Re: [h-cost] simplicity

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi Suzi,
Yes sorry you are right. It is a stock. I looked at the painting by de Troy 
(The declaration of Love) where the gentlemens black ribbon is quite wide.
I also think in genneral with this shirt pattern, that you will need to 
ajust the collar to your period. The collars would not be that high, when 
wearing early 1700 shirt.


Bjarne
- Original Message - 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicity



At 13:49 21/03/2006, you wrote:

Apparently, here in England, a shirt like this is sold as a "poet"

shirt. (Not sure which one this refers to, although I think maybe
bottom left  - was talking to someone at the weekend about this
pattern but as I wasn't planning on buying, didn't register all of
the info!) I think as the shirt you refer to has a black "stock" it
is likely to be that loose period "Regency" meaning anything from
late 18th to mid 1840's, according to some descriptions I've read.

Suzi


Hi Suzi,
Actually it could also be a broad black silk ribbon tied round the neck 
with a bow, and attached to the wigbag in the back. That was high fashion 
in 1730


Bjarne



I don't think so Bjarne - I have pictures of that kind of ribbon and it is 
nowhere near that deep. It may be meant to be that kind, but it looks far 
more like a stock, like I saw at Bath, to me.


Suzi


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Re: [h-cost] simplicity

[Suzi Clarke]

At 13:49 21/03/2006, you wrote:

Apparently, here in England, a shirt like this is sold as a "poet"

shirt. (Not sure which one this refers to, although I think maybe
bottom left  - was talking to someone at the weekend about this
pattern but as I wasn't planning on buying, didn't register all of
the info!) I think as the shirt you refer to has a black "stock" it
is likely to be that loose period "Regency" meaning anything from
late 18th to mid 1840's, according to some descriptions I've read.

Suzi


Hi Suzi,
Actually it could also be a broad black silk ribbon tied round the 
neck with a bow, and attached to the wigbag in the back. That was 
high fashion in 1730


Bjarne



I don't think so Bjarne - I have pictures of that kind of ribbon and 
it is nowhere near that deep. It may be meant to be that kind, but it 
looks far more like a stock, like I saw at Bath, to me.


Suzi


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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Lloyd Mitchell]

My apologies.  I meant Cotta.  I have seen some clerical formal garments
that have the lace ruffle. The sleeve style is what struck me as being
significant. The Presbyterian collar (also Methodist?) is the collar of
which you spoke, I believe.
Kathleen
- Original Message - 
From: "Kate M Bunting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219


> The ruffle looks to me like an early 19th century shirt-frill. Clerical
bands are not ruffled - and a cassock is not a shirt but a close-fitting
coat with long skirts.
>
> Kate Bunting
> Librarian and 17th century reenactor
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 21/03/2006 13:38 >>>
> My immediate take of this pattern item is that the book-holder is meant to
> be a "Cleric" and thus gives an illustration for a third class of users
for
> the pattern.  It almost looks as if it were a cassock of some style,,,even
> with the fallen lace band.
>
> kathleen
> __
>
>
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Kate M Bunting]

The ruffle looks to me like an early 19th century shirt-frill. Clerical bands 
are not ruffled - and a cassock is not a shirt but a close-fitting coat with 
long skirts.

Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 21/03/2006 13:38 >>>
My immediate take of this pattern item is that the book-holder is meant to
be a "Cleric" and thus gives an illustration for a third class of users for
the pattern.  It almost looks as if it were a cassock of some style,,,even
with the fallen lace band.

kathleen
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Lloyd Mitchell]

My immediate take of this pattern item is that the book-holder is meant to
be a "Cleric" and thus gives an illustration for a third class of users for
the pattern.  It almost looks as if it were a cassock of some style,,,even
with the fallen lace band.

kathleen
- Original Message - 
From: "Suzi Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219


> At 16:49 20/03/2006, you wrote:
> >This is a new pattern for costume shirts. I was wondering if anyone
> >can identify view A (lower right corner with the book) and tell me
> >what time period it's supposed to be from:
> >
> >http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4219/4219.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >Dawn
>
>
> Apparently, here in England, a shirt like this is sold as a "poet"
> shirt. (Not sure which one this refers to, although I think maybe
> bottom left  - was talking to someone at the weekend about this
> pattern but as I wasn't planning on buying, didn't register all of
> the info!) I think as the shirt you refer to has a black "stock" it
> is likely to be that loose period "Regency" meaning anything from
> late 18th to mid 1840's, according to some descriptions I've read.
>
> Suzi
>
>
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi Albertcat,
Those shirts i have seen all has shoulder seams, some even has reinforcement 
in the shoulders. But you are right about the neck gussets. But its easy to 
make, i have not had any difficulties in making them.


Bjarne
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219



In a message dated 3/20/2006 7:12:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

instead  of making measurements of my husband.





For a real 18th century shirt, the only measurement you need is the neck,
really. It's a one size fits all kinda affair. For instance, the sleeves 
are

blouse-y so as to fit everyone. Thus we also get sleeve garters.

But if the pattern is rectangles, then go for it! The only "difficult"
things about a real 18th century shirt are the neck gussets...set in at 
where  the

shoulder seam would meet the neckbut there are no shoulder seams in a
real  18th century shirt. It's cut like a poncho. These triangular gussets 
set

in at the neckline help give the shirt a "shoulder slope" that we just cut
into a shirt nowadays with shoulder seams. These gussets are a great 
design

feature, I think.
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

The one in Waugh has a 4" collar, which is what the pattern has. Are you
saying the collars in the 1700's would have been a lot narrower than that? 
She dates the shirt 1700-1810.


This collar is supposed to be bended like an ordinary collar, so it is 
right.
I examined the examples i have. I was wrong about the stock kravat invented 
in mid century, actually they started this fashion in the 1725-30ies.


Do you know if a ruffle on the front would have been worn early in the 
18th century? That's mostly what I was interested in finding out.
I really dont know, my guess is yes, as the slash or slit, dont have any 
closures except in the neck, so to hide the chest --yes.

But the necktie you are going to wear will hide the neck slit.


The neck stock says mid 19th century to me and I was planning on not using 
it.




 I  really hate the laced up the placket "pirate" look.


Agree with you on the laced up look. Ew. FWIW, there are two styles of 
shirt in the pattern, A&B seem historically based, C&D use different 
sleeves and collars, no gussets,  and so forth.



Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[purplkat]

And you only engage in Pre-Emptive Naval Salvage 

Katheryne
who has an alternative persona who is in that sort of 'work'

- Original Message -
> Pirate? Good heavens, no! Pirating will get you hanged. This, on 
> the other hand, is an honest merchant ship, with private backing from 
> several Lords, and a letter of marque from the crown. :)
> Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 3/20/2006 7:53:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The one  in Waugh has a 4" collar, which is what the pattern has. Are you 
saying  the collars in the 1700's would have been a lot narrower than 
that? She  dates the shirt 1700-1810.




**
 
 I make my 18th century collars 3" finished. But of course they could  be 
4"or 2". I think they tend to rise at the period progressesjust like  
coat and waistcoat collars do. They get higher and higher 'til it becomes  
necessary to cut out a scoop for the chin and thus you get those high 
points  on 
each side of the face by the 1820s.
 
A 3" rectangle is a great generic collar for the 18th  century.
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[AlbertCat]

In a message dated 3/20/2006 7:12:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

instead  of making measurements of my husband.





For a real 18th century shirt, the only measurement you need is the neck,  
really. It's a one size fits all kinda affair. For instance, the sleeves are  
blouse-y so as to fit everyone. Thus we also get sleeve garters.
 
But if the pattern is rectangles, then go for it! The only "difficult"  
things about a real 18th century shirt are the neck gussets...set in at where  
the 
shoulder seam would meet the neckbut there are no shoulder seams in a  
real  18th century shirt. It's cut like a poncho. These triangular gussets  set 
in at the neckline help give the shirt a "shoulder slope" that we just cut  
into a shirt nowadays with shoulder seams. These gussets are a great design  
feature, I think.
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Dawn]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
I think Bjarne could be right, but I also see a 19th century shirt...the  1st 
half of it anyway. The shirt becomes what we generally think of as a shirt  
today [yolk, shaped sleeve heads] in the 2nd half of the 19th century.  Before 
that, a shirt is cut in all rectangular and square pieces.




I've got the pattern in hand, and it is mostly squares. There's slight 
shaping at the shoulders of the body pieces. Views A and B, the ones 
with buttons and the one with the ruffle and the book, look a lot like 
the shirt diagram in Waugh ... minus the shoulder gusset.


The shape of collars really give away the period in the 19th century too.  
That very high collar with the ends of it near your ears can be found early on  
in the period till the 1830s and 40s. [You don't seem to get the starched  
detachable collars till the last half.]


The one in Waugh has a 4" collar, which is what the pattern has. Are you 
saying the collars in the 1700's would have been a lot narrower than 
that? She dates the shirt 1700-1810.


Do you know if a ruffle on the front would have been worn early in the 
18th century? That's mostly what I was interested in finding out.


The neck stock says mid 19th century to me and I was planning on not 
using it.



 
 I  really hate 
the laced up the placket "pirate" look. 


Agree with you on the laced up look. Ew. FWIW, there are two styles of 
shirt in the pattern, A&B seem historically based, C&D use different 
sleeves and collars, no gussets,  and so forth.



Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Susan Data-Samtak]

Sorry, I don't know.

This is a problem that I have with some of the Simplicity and Butterick 
"historic" patterns.  They don't identify the years they are 
representing.


Susan

"Slow down. The trail is the thing, not the end of the trail. Travel
too fast and you miss all you are traveling for".  - "Ride the Dark
Trail" by Louis L'Amour

On Mar 20, 2006, at 11:49 AM, Dawn wrote:

This is a new pattern for costume shirts. I was wondering if anyone 
can identify view A (lower right corner with the book) and tell me 
what time period it's supposed to be from:


http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4219/4219.jpg



Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Dawn]

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Ok, Dawn,
Cut of mens have a shirt pattern wich can be used for 1700 - 1790. Its 
like the butterick pattern.
However you really dont need a pattern to make such a shirt. Its very 
easy cut of rectangles, slashes and quatrangels.
frills at sleaves and neck slash can be ajusted like your taste, wide or 
narrow.


Thanks! It sounds like I'm on the right track here then. Yes, the 
pattern is mostly squares, but since it only costs $2 it is so easy to 
use instead of making measurements of my husband.




Dawn



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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 3/20/2006 2:09:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hi,
That would be an 18th century  shirt.

Bjarne



**
 
I think Bjarne could be right, but I also see a 19th century shirt...the  1st 
half of it anyway. The shirt becomes what we generally think of as a shirt  
today [yolk, shaped sleeve heads] in the 2nd half of the 19th century.  Before 
that, a shirt is cut in all rectangular and square pieces.
 
The shape of collars really give away the period in the 19th century too.  
That very high collar with the ends of it near your ears can be found early on  
in the period till the 1830s and 40s. [You don't seem to get the starched  
detachable collars till the last half.]
 
Can't say I like any of these styles the pattern offers much. I  really hate 
the laced up the placket "pirate" look. 
 
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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Ok, Dawn,
Cut of mens have a shirt pattern wich can be used for 1700 - 1790. Its like 
the butterick pattern.
However you really dont need a pattern to make such a shirt. Its very easy 
cut of rectangles, slashes and quatrangels.
frills at sleaves and neck slash can be ajusted like your taste, wide or 
narrow.


Bjarne
- Original Message - 
From: "Dawn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219



Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Hi Dawn,
It would be, only difference from start of the century and late is the 
neck wear. Early 1700 wore a rectangular cravate (necktie with lace in 
the ends) Mid century they started to wear the stocks wich was closed 
center back.

Is it for a pirate costume?


Pirate? Good heavens, no! Pirating will get you hanged. This, on the other 
hand, is an honest merchant ship, with private backing from several Lords, 
and a letter of marque from the crown. :)




Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Susan B. Farmer]

Quoting Dawn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Hi Dawn,
It would be, only difference from start of the century and late is 
the neck wear. Early 1700 wore a rectangular cravate (necktie with 
lace in the ends) Mid century they started to wear the stocks wich 
was closed center back.

Is it for a pirate costume?


Pirate? Good heavens, no! Pirating will get you hanged. This, on the 
other hand, is an honest merchant ship, with private backing from 
several Lords, and a letter of marque from the crown. :)




*giggle*

Susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Dawn]

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Hi Dawn,
It would be, only difference from start of the century and late is the 
neck wear. Early 1700 wore a rectangular cravate (necktie with lace in 
the ends) Mid century they started to wear the stocks wich was closed 
center back.

Is it for a pirate costume?


Pirate? Good heavens, no! Pirating will get you hanged. This, on the 
other hand, is an honest merchant ship, with private backing from 
several Lords, and a letter of marque from the crown. :)




Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi Dawn,
It would be, only difference from start of the century and late is the neck 
wear. Early 1700 wore a rectangular cravate (necktie with lace in the ends) 
Mid century they started to wear the stocks wich was closed center back.

Is it for a pirate costume?
Bjarne
- Original Message - 
From: "Dawn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219


Was the same style worn throughout the century? Or is this  strictly a 
later 18th century style?  Wondering if it would be appropriate for an 
early 1700's costume...




Dawn



Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Hi,
That would be an 18th century shirt.

Bjarne



This is a new pattern for costume shirts. I was wondering if anyone can 
identify view A (lower right corner with the book) and tell me what time 
period it's supposed to be from:


http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4219/4219.jpg



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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Dawn]

Was the same style worn throughout the century? Or is this  strictly a 
later 18th century style?  Wondering if it would be appropriate for an 
early 1700's costume...




Dawn



Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Hi,
That would be an 18th century shirt.

Bjarne



This is a new pattern for costume shirts. I was wondering if anyone 
can identify view A (lower right corner with the book) and tell me 
what time period it's supposed to be from:


http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4219/4219.jpg



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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi,
That would be an 18th century shirt.

Bjarne

- Original Message - 
From: "Dawn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219


This is a new pattern for costume shirts. I was wondering if anyone can 
identify view A (lower right corner with the book) and tell me what time 
period it's supposed to be from:


http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4219/4219.jpg



Dawn

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Re: [h-cost] Simplicity 4219

[Suzi Clarke]

At 16:49 20/03/2006, you wrote:
This is a new pattern for costume shirts. I was wondering if anyone 
can identify view A (lower right corner with the book) and tell me 
what time period it's supposed to be from:


http://www.simplicity.com/assets/4219/4219.jpg



Dawn



Apparently, here in England, a shirt like this is sold as a "poet" 
shirt. (Not sure which one this refers to, although I think maybe 
bottom left  - was talking to someone at the weekend about this 
pattern but as I wasn't planning on buying, didn't register all of 
the info!) I think as the shirt you refer to has a black "stock" it 
is likely to be that loose period "Regency" meaning anything from 
late 18th to mid 1840's, according to some descriptions I've read.


Suzi


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