Re: [Hardhats-members] Vista for a startup clinic?
Comments below --- "Ismet B. Kursunoglu, MD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -snip- > > fully up and configured. But if you want to have > what I have done, I'll be > > happy to share it with you. It is the system I > used for my iniial stages > > of setup. The only problem is that when I sent it > to Nancy A., she wasn't > > able to get it to work on her system. (And I had > trouble too, when > > connecting to her system) > > I guess that would be helpful, however I am not all > sure how to simply adopt > your solution. I would be very happy to give it a > try. > -snip- > > physician, I will be adding all the other doctors. > So I am 90% of the way > > through. > > It would be great if you could publish it - maybe > someone like O'Reilly would > be interested. I know I would buy it - especially > if it included a "gentle" > introduction to Mumps. Yes, I also think that would be a great book to write..."someday" -snip- > > Also is there another list besides this one i.e. for > newbies like myself to > join regarding this topic? No, this is the right list. > > Feel free to call me or I would be happy to call you > - I am at 310 546-4320 > but will leave on Thursday for AK. I'd prefer to keep it on the board. It gives us time to consider an answer and give a good response. Also, it leaves an archive for future users. Good luck. Kevin __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Exporting Word Processing Fields Using VA Fileman
Ann, It would be a fairly short program to print out the fields to a text file. But what will you do if your word-processor field contains a comma? Won't that mess up your comma delineation of fields? What about writing out the data in XML format? Could you use that? Kevin --- ann cooney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am looking for a workaround for VA Fileman's > export limitation with word processing > fields - quote from VA Fileman's reference "can't > use the Import or > Export Tools to exchange word processing fields from > VA FileMan files..." > > I am just starting out using Fileman without knowing > how to program in > mumps (tho I do program in v.basic, e.g) - but am > willing to learn M. I have been asked to export > specific fields from the M database to comma > delimited file and import > into MS Access for data analysis. I have been > successful except for the word processing fields. > > From the archives, I have a sense or what is the > most likely solutions, but would like a little more > detail on #1 below: > 1) extracting multiline fields one by one - How > would one go about doing this? Is it part of the > export tool? or > 2) Creating a print template and capturing the > output. > > ACee > > > > - > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
As near as I can tell, it contains whatever this group of like-minded folks seem to want to talk about... I think there is a healthy mix of Cache' and GTM. Kevin --- David Sommers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm curious. What exactly is discussed on this > list? Is it pure M not > related to VistA or does that come up as well? > Mostly users of GTM? > Etc etc. > > Also, I didn't know it was uga.edu > GO DAWGS! > > Sorry - I'm BIG G, all the way. > > /David. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Nancy > Anthracite > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:03 PM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > A really good point! Thank you. We need to > announce the WV meeting, > the > party and the MDC meeting on it. > > On Friday 04 March 2005 06:43 pm, GARY MONGER wrote: > > The MUMPS list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not > very active anymore, > but it > > still has people listening. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:16 PM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Hope I am not just repeating what others have > said. Two different > times in > > the 90's I did M programming for Lab Corp as a > consultant (the first > time > > under its old name National Health Labs). I also > did M programming > for > > Quest under one of its old names of Corning > MetPath. I knew that Lab > Corp > > was planning to move away from M in 1996. I do > not know how far they > got. > > There were also at least two other medical lab > companies that used M > in the > > 90's. > > > > Jim Gray > > > > > Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of > Quest and LabCorp > using M > > > > and I > > > > > would like to know more so that we can contact > the right people. > Can > > > > email > > > > > me some information (nancy at anthracite dot > name) please ? > Otherwise, > > > > who > > > > > knows if the message will get where it needs to > go. > > > > > > On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA > MCKINZIE wrote: > > > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, > outside of the VA, > > > > however I > > > > > > first learned the language at the VA (as part > of a work/study > program). > > > > > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be > solved by the VA, or > any > > > > other > > > > > > M shop. Many universities and colleges now > requires a senior > project > > > > of their students. Contacting local collages > to have 1 or more > > > > students > > > > work > > > > > > at the VA as part of a work/study program > would allow more new > > > > programmers > > > > > > to learn M. They would be learning M and doing > some programming > during > > > > thier senior year as the senior project. This > will expose more > people > > > > to M > > > > > > and create a new talent pool for the VA to > hire. It would also > help > > > > the students start thier resume and have work > references before > leaving > > > > school. > > > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in > school, but in a > > > > mentoring environment. It would be a shame to > throw away the > culture > > > > that makes > > > > this > > > > > > language so unique, instead we should use it > to grow and expand. > > > > > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that > use M are probably > > > > unaware > > > > of > > > > > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, > Labcorp) These > programmers > > > > should be drawn in and included in the revival > of MDC. That way > it is > > > > not > > > > > > just VA specific and will meet the needs of a > wide variety of > > > > institutions. > > > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no > motivation to learn a > language > > > > in > > > > > > school or other places unless it is going to > be useful, face it > Mumps > > > > is > > > > a > > > > > > niche language for writing databases. There is > no reason for newer > > > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no > reason for schools to > teach > > > > it. When I went to a training class for Mumps > 3-4 === message truncated === __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real us
Re: [Hardhats-members] Setting/attaching kernel parameters
Another way would be to use menu option: XUKERNEL. Mark, I don't understand the question you have about directly editing the file in Fileman. Which fields can you not edit directly with the ENTER OR EDIT FILE ENTRIES option? Kevin --- Mark Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I went back to my original VISTA install of from the > Hui source and continued > to work through Section 9 - Non-^ARJTGTM > Configuration. I am now entering > Section 10 - Parameters. > > Question: Do I set the kernel parameters the same > way I set the DOMAIN NAME > in the previous section 9? I ran an inquiry of the > current kernel system > parameters as stated in the documents and a few of > the entries need to be > changed DNS IP, etc. > > I understand using INQUIRE, but how do I use ENTER > OR EDIT FILE ENTRIES to > change the specific parameters. I can't seem to > find where they are using > the ENTER OR EDIT hierarchy. > > TIA > -- > Mark Street, RHCE > http://www.oswizards.com > -- > Key fingerprint = 3949 39E4 6317 7C3C 023E 2B1F > 6FB3 06E7 D109 56C0 > GPG key http://www.oswizards.com/pubkey.asc > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
LOL! Kevin --- Chris Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I could not agree with you more, Kevin. > > Grouping the equations is the most rational idea. > Depending upon precidence > is a great way to build in an obscure bug. I > haven't trusted a precident > since Nixon. ;^) > > Have a great weekend. > > > - Original Message - > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:11 PM > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Greg, > > > > I agree that the M way of calculating this is > > different from other languages. But you couldn't > > change this without breaking old code. I would > say, > > for good coding practice, that the line be written > > like this: > > > > (2+3)*4 > > or > > 2+(3*4) > > > > depending which you were really wanting. > > In other words, just make the extra effort to be > > clear. > > > > Kevin > > > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > > > 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using > > > infix notation, that > > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't > know > > > MIIS, but it might be > > > an exception.) > > > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. > I > > > learned M. When did > > > > it all > > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the > upcoming > > > generation ? I don't > > > > think > > > > so. > > > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not > the > > > language. It is the > > > > shear > > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > > > documented code > > > > under the hood, which is the result of years > of > > > patching already > > > > patched > > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in > any > > > other language. In > > > > fact, it > > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the > > > installed base, > > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when > the > > > current redesign is > > > > finished, how well it works , and how many > people > > > it takes to > > > > support it. > > > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked > really > > > well. CoreFLS was > > > > a grand > > > > success. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Behalf Of > > > > steven > > > > mcphelan > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > > > management not being able > > > > to back > > > > off of migrating to a newer platform is > probably > > > very close to the > > > > truth. > > > > However, I am sure that there were some real > > > business management > > > > decisions > > > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an > article > > > recently that > > > > estimated that > > > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be > retiring > > > in the next 5 > > > > years. If > > > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very > concerned > > > about that. I > > > > would > > > > seriously consider moving my technology to a > > > platform that enables me > > > > to > > > > recruit competent IT staff without having to > rely > > > on in-house > > > > training for > > > > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > > > even consider > > > > technology that > > > > is inferior to my current technology as long > as > > > the new technology > > > > meets my > > > > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in > personnel > > > matters or provide > > > > me the > > > > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT > > > functions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > A practical man is a man who practices the > errors of > > > his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli > > > > > > Greg Woodhouse > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > > Products from real users. > > > Discover which products truly live up to the > hype. > > > Start reading now. > > > > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > > ___ > > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > === message truncated ===
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
It is late, David. Go to bed and quit causing trouble. ;-) On Saturday 05 March 2005 12:16 am, David Sommers wrote: > I'm curious. What exactly is discussed on this list? Is it pure M not > related to VistA or does that come up as well? Mostly users of GTM? > Etc etc. > > Also, I didn't know it was uga.edu > GO DAWGS! > > Sorry - I'm BIG G, all the way. > > /David. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy > Anthracite > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:03 PM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > A really good point! Thank you. We need to announce the WV meeting, > the > party and the MDC meeting on it. > > On Friday 04 March 2005 06:43 pm, GARY MONGER wrote: > > The MUMPS list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not very active anymore, > > but it > > > still has people listening. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:16 PM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Hope I am not just repeating what others have said. Two different > > times in > > > the 90's I did M programming for Lab Corp as a consultant (the first > > time > > > under its old name National Health Labs). I also did M programming > > for > > > Quest under one of its old names of Corning MetPath. I knew that Lab > > Corp > > > was planning to move away from M in 1996. I do not know how far they > > got. > > > There were also at least two other medical lab companies that used M > > in the > > > 90's. > > > > Jim Gray > > > > > Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of Quest and LabCorp > > using M > > > and I > > > > > would like to know more so that we can contact the right people. > > Can > > > email > > > > > me some information (nancy at anthracite dot name) please ? > > Otherwise, > > > who > > > > > knows if the message will get where it needs to go. > > > > > > On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, > > > > however I > > > > > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study > > program). > > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or > > any > > > other > > > > > > M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior > > project > > > > > of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more > > > > students > > > > work > > > > > > at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new > > > > programmers > > > > > > to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming > > during > > > > > thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more > > people > > > to M > > > > > > and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also > > help > > > > > the students start thier resume and have work references before > > leaving > > > school. > > > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a > > > > mentoring environment. It would be a shame to throw away the > > culture > > > > > that makes > > > > this > > > > > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably > > > > unaware > > > > of > > > > > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These > > programmers > > > > > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way > > it is > > > not > > > > > > just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > > > > institutions. > > > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a > > language > > > in > > > > > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it > > Mumps > > > > > is > > > > a > > > > > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to > > teach > > > > > it. When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there > > were 4 > > > students > > > > > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so > > they > > > could > > > > > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like > > SQL2000. > > > The > > > > > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is > > no > > > push > > > > > > from anyone to change. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > > > > > C3I Associates > > > > > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > > > > > Joint Battlespace I
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I'm curious. What exactly is discussed on this list? Is it pure M not related to VistA or does that come up as well? Mostly users of GTM? Etc etc. Also, I didn't know it was uga.edu GO DAWGS! Sorry - I'm BIG G, all the way. /David. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:03 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival A really good point! Thank you. We need to announce the WV meeting, the party and the MDC meeting on it. On Friday 04 March 2005 06:43 pm, GARY MONGER wrote: > The MUMPS list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not very active anymore, but it > still has people listening. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:16 PM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > Hope I am not just repeating what others have said. Two different times in > the 90's I did M programming for Lab Corp as a consultant (the first time > under its old name National Health Labs). I also did M programming for > Quest under one of its old names of Corning MetPath. I knew that Lab Corp > was planning to move away from M in 1996. I do not know how far they got. > There were also at least two other medical lab companies that used M in the > 90's. > > Jim Gray > > > Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of Quest and LabCorp using M > > and I > > > would like to know more so that we can contact the right people. Can > > email > > > me some information (nancy at anthracite dot name) please ? Otherwise, > > who > > > knows if the message will get where it needs to go. > > > > On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, > > however I > > > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any > > other > > > > M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project > > > of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more > > > students > > work > > > > at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new > > programmers > > > > to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during > > > thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people > > to M > > > > and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help > > > the students start thier resume and have work references before leaving > > school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a > > > mentoring environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture > > > that makes > > this > > > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably > > > unaware > > of > > > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers > > > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is > > not > > > > just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > > institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language > > in > > > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps > > > is > > a > > > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach > > > it. When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 > > students > > > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they > > could > > > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. > > The > > > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no > > push > > > > from anyone to change. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > > > C3I Associates > > > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > > > Woodhouse > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > > > :-) > > > >
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Or just give it a new name with something thrown on the end of it (Java2 and VB.NET come to mind). /David. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Woodhouse Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 7:31 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Sometimes old code deserves to be broken! ;-) Actually, my point was that while the language isn't complicated, it's full of idiosyncrasies like this that can throw people off. --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Greg, > > I agree that the M way of calculating this is > different from other languages. But you couldn't > change this without breaking old code. I would say, > for good coding practice, that the line be written > like this: > > (2+3)*4 > or > 2+(3*4) > > depending which you were really wanting. > In other words, just make the extra effort to be > clear. > > Kevin > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > > 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using > > infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know > > MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I > > learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming > > generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the > > language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > > documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of > > patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any > > other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the > > installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the > > current redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people > > it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really > > well. CoreFLS was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Behalf Of > > > steven > > > mcphelan > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > > management not being able > > > to back > > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably > > very close to the > > > truth. > > > However, I am sure that there were some real > > business management > > > decisions > > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article > > recently that > > > estimated that > > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring > > in the next 5 > > > years. If > > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned > > about that. I > > > would > > > seriously consider moving my technology to a > > platform that enables me > > > to > > > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely > > on in-house > > > training for > > > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > > even consider > > > technology that > > > is inferior to my current technology as long as > > the new technology > > > meets my > > > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel > > matters or provide > > > me the > > > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT > > functions. > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > A practical man is a man who practices the errors of > > his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli > > > > Greg Woodhouse > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > __ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. >
Re: [Hardhats-members] Setting/attaching kernel parameters
Never mind... after entering ENTER OR EDIT I had to choose my DOMAIN NAME, after which I was presented with all the KERNEL SYSTEM PARAMETERS, which I edited. Still finding my way around fileman... I will shut up now On Friday 04 March 2005 20:04, Mark Street wrote: > Question: Do I set the kernel parameters the same way I set the DOMAIN > NAME in the previous section 9? I ran an inquiry of the current kernel > system parameters as stated in the documents and a few of the entries need > to be changed DNS IP, etc. > > I understand using INQUIRE, but how do I use ENTER OR EDIT FILE ENTRIES to > change the specific parameters. I can't seem to find where they are using > the ENTER OR EDIT hierarchy. -- Mark Street, RHCE http://www.oswizards.com -- Key fingerprint = 3949 39E4 6317 7C3C 023E 2B1F 6FB3 06E7 D109 56C0 GPG key http://www.oswizards.com/pubkey.asc --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Geez, Chuck; You don't call, you don't write, and then you come out of left field with a difference of opinion That is OK. Write up the proposal for the specification as you see it and float it as an RFC. You might get a following for your opinion. This is the wonderful thing about community, there is so much opportunity for difference of opinion. It would be boreing if everyone thought the same way. By the way, what are you wearing?? Chris - Original Message - From: "chuck5566" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > I'm afraid that I still couldn't disagree more. (I know, like THAT > really matters.) > > I LIKE writing in M. One of things I appreciate about M is it's simple > left-to-right order of precedence (OoP). I know M's OoP swims against > almost every other language, as does my opinion. Maybe it's because > I've used M's OoP long enough to appreciate and make use of it, or > maybe I'm just too simple minded. ;-) > > Serious, maybe order of precedence could be an M system parameter in > future versions. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > On Mar 4, 2005, at 7:59 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: > > > I could not agree with you more, Kevin. > > > > Grouping the equations is the most rational idea. Depending upon > > precidence > > is a great way to build in an obscure bug. I haven't trusted a > > precident > > since Nixon. ;^) > > > > Have a great weekend. > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:11 PM > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > >> Greg, > >> > >> I agree that the M way of calculating this is > >> different from other languages. But you couldn't > >> change this without breaking old code. I would say, > >> for good coding practice, that the line be written > >> like this: > >> > >> (2+3)*4 > >> or > >> 2+(3*4) > >> > >> depending which you were really wanting. > >> In other words, just make the extra effort to be > >> clear. > >> > >> Kevin > >> > >> --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>> Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > >>> 2+3*4 = 20. > >>> > >>> :-) > >>> > >>> Can you think of even one other language (using > >>> infix notation, that > >>> is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know > >>> MIIS, but it might be > >>> an exception.) > >>> > >>> --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I > >>> learned M. When did > it all > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming > >>> generation ? I don't > think > so. > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the > >>> language. It is the > shear > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > >>> documented code > under the hood, which is the result of years of > >>> patching already > patched > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any > >>> other language. In > fact, it > would be much simpler. VA already has the > >>> installed base, > and the in-house expertise. > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the > >>> current redesign is > finished, how well it works , and how many people > >>> it takes to > support it. > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really > >>> well. CoreFLS was > a grand > success. > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> Behalf Of > steven > mcphelan > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > >>> management not being able > to back > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably > >>> very close to the > truth. > However, I am sure that there were some real > >>> business management > decisions > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article > >>> recently that > estimated that > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring > >>> in the next 5 > years. If > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned > >>> about that. I > would > seriously consider moving my technology to a > >>> platform that enables me > to > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely > >>> on in-house > training for > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > >>> even consider > technology that > is inferior to my current technology as long as > >>> the new technology > meets my > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel > >>> matters or provide > me the > opportunit
[Hardhats-members] Setting/attaching kernel parameters
I went back to my original VISTA install of from the Hui source and continued to work through Section 9 - Non-^ARJTGTM Configuration. I am now entering Section 10 - Parameters. Question: Do I set the kernel parameters the same way I set the DOMAIN NAME in the previous section 9? I ran an inquiry of the current kernel system parameters as stated in the documents and a few of the entries need to be changed DNS IP, etc. I understand using INQUIRE, but how do I use ENTER OR EDIT FILE ENTRIES to change the specific parameters. I can't seem to find where they are using the ENTER OR EDIT hierarchy. TIA -- Mark Street, RHCE http://www.oswizards.com -- Key fingerprint = 3949 39E4 6317 7C3C 023E 2B1F 6FB3 06E7 D109 56C0 GPG key http://www.oswizards.com/pubkey.asc --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I'm afraid that I still couldn't disagree more. (I know, like THAT really matters.) I LIKE writing in M. One of things I appreciate about M is it's simple left-to-right order of precedence (OoP). I know M's OoP swims against almost every other language, as does my opinion. Maybe it's because I've used M's OoP long enough to appreciate and make use of it, or maybe I'm just too simple minded. ;-) Serious, maybe order of precedence could be an M system parameter in future versions. Cheers, Chuck On Mar 4, 2005, at 7:59 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: I could not agree with you more, Kevin. Grouping the equations is the most rational idea. Depending upon precidence is a great way to build in an obscure bug. I haven't trusted a precident since Nixon. ;^) Have a great weekend. - Original Message - From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Greg, I agree that the M way of calculating this is different from other languages. But you couldn't change this without breaking old code. I would say, for good coding practice, that the line be written like this: (2+3)*4 or 2+(3*4) depending which you were really wanting. In other words, just make the extra effort to be clear. Kevin --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. :-) Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be an exception.) --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did it all of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't think so. The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the shear size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already patched code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In fact, it would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, and the in-house expertise. We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to support it. Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was a grand success. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of steven mcphelan Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival I believe Cameron's statement about the VA management not being able to back off of migrating to a newer platform is probably very close to the truth. However, I am sure that there were some real business management decisions made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article recently that estimated that 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring in the next 5 years. If I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned about that. I would seriously consider moving my technology to a platform that enables me to recruit competent IT staff without having to rely on in-house training for the next generation of VA IT support. I would even consider technology that is inferior to my current technology as long as the new technology meets my needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel matters or provide me the opportunity to competitively outsource some IT functions. = A practical man is a man who practices the errors of his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli Greg Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundr
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I could not agree with you more, Kevin. Grouping the equations is the most rational idea. Depending upon precidence is a great way to build in an obscure bug. I haven't trusted a precident since Nixon. ;^) Have a great weekend. - Original Message - From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > Greg, > > I agree that the M way of calculating this is > different from other languages. But you couldn't > change this without breaking old code. I would say, > for good coding practice, that the line be written > like this: > > (2+3)*4 > or > 2+(3*4) > > depending which you were really wanting. > In other words, just make the extra effort to be > clear. > > Kevin > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > > 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using > > infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know > > MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I > > learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming > > generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the > > language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > > documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of > > patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any > > other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the > > installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the > > current redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people > > it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really > > well. CoreFLS was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Behalf Of > > > steven > > > mcphelan > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > > management not being able > > > to back > > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably > > very close to the > > > truth. > > > However, I am sure that there were some real > > business management > > > decisions > > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article > > recently that > > > estimated that > > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring > > in the next 5 > > > years. If > > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned > > about that. I > > > would > > > seriously consider moving my technology to a > > platform that enables me > > > to > > > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely > > on in-house > > > training for > > > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > > even consider > > > technology that > > > is inferior to my current technology as long as > > the new technology > > > meets my > > > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel > > matters or provide > > > me the > > > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT > > functions. > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > A practical man is a man who practices the errors of > > his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli > > > > Greg Woodhouse > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > __ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-memb
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Wow, de ja vous all over again. BTW, I still agree with you. - Original Message - From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > Greg, > > I agree that the M way of calculating this is > different from other languages. But you couldn't > change this without breaking old code. I would say, > for good coding practice, that the line be written > like this: > > (2+3)*4 > or > 2+(3*4) > > depending which you were really wanting. > In other words, just make the extra effort to be > clear. > > Kevin > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > > 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using > > infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know > > MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I > > learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming > > generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the > > language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > > documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of > > patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any > > other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the > > installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the > > current redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people > > it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really > > well. CoreFLS was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Behalf Of > > > steven > > > mcphelan > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > > management not being able > > > to back > > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably > > very close to the > > > truth. > > > However, I am sure that there were some real > > business management > > > decisions > > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article > > recently that > > > estimated that > > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring > > in the next 5 > > > years. If > > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned > > about that. I > > > would > > > seriously consider moving my technology to a > > platform that enables me > > > to > > > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely > > on in-house > > > training for > > > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > > even consider > > > technology that > > > is inferior to my current technology as long as > > the new technology > > > meets my > > > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel > > matters or provide > > > me the > > > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT > > functions. > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > A practical man is a man who practices the errors of > > his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli > > > > Greg Woodhouse > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > __ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
A really good point! Thank you. We need to announce the WV meeting, the party and the MDC meeting on it. On Friday 04 March 2005 06:43 pm, GARY MONGER wrote: > The MUMPS list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not very active anymore, but it > still has people listening. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:16 PM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > Hope I am not just repeating what others have said. Two different times in > the 90's I did M programming for Lab Corp as a consultant (the first time > under its old name National Health Labs). I also did M programming for > Quest under one of its old names of Corning MetPath. I knew that Lab Corp > was planning to move away from M in 1996. I do not know how far they got. > There were also at least two other medical lab companies that used M in the > 90's. > > Jim Gray > > > Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of Quest and LabCorp using M > > and I > > > would like to know more so that we can contact the right people. Can > > email > > > me some information (nancy at anthracite dot name) please ? Otherwise, > > who > > > knows if the message will get where it needs to go. > > > > On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, > > however I > > > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any > > other > > > > M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project > > > of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more > > > students > > work > > > > at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new > > programmers > > > > to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during > > > thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people > > to M > > > > and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help > > > the students start thier resume and have work references before leaving > > school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a > > > mentoring environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture > > > that makes > > this > > > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably > > > unaware > > of > > > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers > > > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is > > not > > > > just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > > institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language > > in > > > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps > > > is > > a > > > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach > > > it. When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 > > students > > > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they > > could > > > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. > > The > > > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no > > push > > > > from anyone to change. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > > > C3I Associates > > > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > > > Woodhouse > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > > > an exception.) > > > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > > > it all > > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > > > th
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
The MUMPS list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not very active anymore, but it still has people listening. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:16 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Hope I am not just repeating what others have said. Two different times in the 90's I did M programming for Lab Corp as a consultant (the first time under its old name National Health Labs). I also did M programming for Quest under one of its old names of Corning MetPath. I knew that Lab Corp was planning to move away from M in 1996. I do not know how far they got. There were also at least two other medical lab companies that used M in the 90's. Jim Gray > Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of Quest and LabCorp using M and I > would like to know more so that we can contact the right people. Can email > me some information (nancy at anthracite dot name) please ? Otherwise, who > knows if the message will get where it needs to go. > > On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other > > M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of > > their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work > > at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers > > to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during > > thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people to M > > and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the > > students start thier resume and have work references before leaving school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers > > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not > > just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push > > from anyone to change. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > C3I Associates > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > > Woodhouse > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We
Re: [Hardhats-members] CPRS chart 1.0.25.28
Sure. On Friday 04 March 2005 07:07 pm, Kevin Toppenberg wrote: > Nancy, > > This issue has come up enough that I think we need to > make a cheat sheet. > > Would you be willing to create a table with CPRS > version in the first column, and URL in the second. I > could post it on my web site. I think it would be > quite helpful. > > Kevin > > --- Fernando Telesca <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > What you need is (thanks to Nancy): > > ftp://ftp.va.gov/vista/Software/Packages/Order%20Entry-Results%20Reporting% >20-%20OR/OR_30_195.zip > > > Rgds, > > > > Fernando > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Doctor Bones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:27 AM > > Subject: [Hardhats-members] CPRS chart 1.0.25.28 > > > > > Hi... I have been incommunicado for several days > > > > trying to > > > > > Grok... just what is going on > > > Mucho thanks to Kevin and Nancy! :) > > > Ok... So I installed the latest FOIA VistA via > > > > windows... > > > > > Just, so I can see it work... then I will install > > > > it properly in a unix > > > > > environment. > > > > > > Two questions > > > I get a nasty error that says CPRS is verson > > > > 1.0.24.27 > > > > > and my server is 1.0.25.28 I have looked for > > > > the correct > > > > > CPRS chart version but haven't found it. Does > > > > anyone know what > > > > > I can do about this? > > > > > > Does anyone have the imaging software?... I read > > > > on the VA site that it > > > > > is only available via cd. > > > > > > Ok... three questions... > > > Will cprs chart run on a windows ce device? I > > > > would like to have > > > > > something working on a palm device. > > > > > > Thanks... > > > I still don't understand anything... but I am > > > > progressing. > > > > > Mano > > --- > > > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > > > Products from real users. > > > > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > > > > Start reading now. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > > > ___ > > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > --- > > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > > Start reading now. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > __ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] ZWiki for VistA
Scratch that. Too many wiki sites... Kevin --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nancy, > > This link would be a good place for you to post a > copy > of all the news stories you encounter. > > Kevin > > > --- Ignacio Valdes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If there is no Wiki for VistA, then I've created a > > ZWiki page for > > VistA here: > > > > http://www.linuxmednews.com/linuxmednews/vista > > > > Please feel free to use it. Linux Medical News is > > unlikely to go away > > soon so the hosting for this should continue for > > quite a long time. > > Any content placed in it is under the GNU Free > > Documentation License > > GFDL version 1.2 > > http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/fdl.html > > > > In the future, I will likely place un-obtrusive > top > > and sidebar ads > > around (but not in, and certainly not part of) the > > text in return for > > hosting it. Pretty much exactly like what > > http://www.linuxmednews.com > > has right now. > > > > -- IV > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > __ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
I think the Worldvista wiki should be the main one. And we ought to consolidate to that one site. Kevin --- Nancy Anthracite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Which wiki did you contribute on? If we have 3 or 4 > of these wikies (sp?) we > are all going to continue to not know where to turn. > At the moment there is > Kevin's non-wiki, which is fine with me for now > since I am wiki-shy, and then > I think we ought to have a "main wiki" or wikies > specializing different > things or something like that. > > What do some of you think? > > On Friday 04 March 2005 01:24 pm, Mark Street wrote: > > On Friday 04 March 2005 08:02, Bhaskar, KS wrote: > > > [KSB] If you are still in the process of setting > up GT.M and the > > > environment (vs. configuring VistA itself), let > me suggest a much faster > > > alternative. > > > > Wow, much faster. Scratching through the Hui > install and config was a > > learning experience. I am sure it will come in > handy soon. I scratched > > the networked box and installed it on my laptop so > I can work on it > > anywhere. > > > > Now, where does the faster install leave me in the > grand scheme of things? > > I would assume I have to configure users, volumes, > Mailman, etc. again from > > the command prompt as in the installation and > configuration guide. The > > architecture is still a bit fuzzy. On to the > VDL. > > > > Is there a specific order in which to install > packages to bring up a basic > > system? I assume Fileman is going to be my > friend. > > > > The wiki is a good thing, mediawiki is a nice > package. Thanks! I have > > already contributed. > > -- > Nancy Anthracite > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Hi, From the wishlist dept.: Pure M is simple, fast (in fact the fastest) and open source (or not, it´s up to you). Not to mention its history in the healthcare arena. If one wants layers over it, fine, he has the option to measure the benefits and pay the price on cash or performance. VistA is wide spread, simple (ok, a complex set of simple pieces), fast, open source, with a stablished and growing community and far better documented than many commercial products out there. So, what could we want more ?? Well, from the point of view of an average skilled consultant/developer (and coffee maker:)), I say we want GUI, at least for the end user access. There´s already cute GUI modules, like CPRS and Pharmacy, but we need more, at least to cover a basic set of functionalities for a small/medium sized healthcare organization. Next on on the list: web access on an ASP model :)) Best Regards, Fernando Telesca - Original Message - From: "Greg Woodhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 3:28 PM Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival I can understand your point of view, but I don't entirely agree. Certainly it is possible to retrofit objects onto a language and come up with something you'd rather not use. I don't mean to bash C++, but it's not a language I'd want to use. I like C, but am not a great fan of C++. I like Java quite a bit better, but certainly would not say that it doesn't have its own problems. I don't much like the approach of implementing abstractions such as objects in a language like MUMPS because the result is a lot of syntactic noise. Integration of these abstractions into the language leads to cleaner code that is easier to understand, and easier to maintain. I think you're right (if I understand you correctly) that MUMPS is a good enabling technology prfecisely because it provides a kind of virtual machine (much like JVM or Parrot) and can easily provide a basis for building more complex languages. But MUMPS is also an application language. What Java (for example) does is isolate the JVM as a distinct component and then build a language on top of it. This means that Java byte code can be optimized for the role it is meant to play and can serve as az better foundation for building a language. MUMPS, on the other hand, is already encumbered with constructs that exist only to make it usable as an application language. Now, there has already been one well known attempt to build a new language on top of a full featured application language (namely RATFOR), and I don't believe it was especially successful. I see MUMPS as a language at the crossroads wsith a real tension between the roles it has come to play: is it an application language or is it a VM? In fact, it does do a credible job of being both, but I believe we've reached a point where it might be useful to consider drawing a cleaner line between these two aspects of the language. --- Terry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Let me assert my opinon about MUMPS and OO. Originally I was a strong believer that the language had to evolve just like C ->C++ -> Java. However, now that I'm older and wiser (well - older anyway ;-), I have a modified view of that. For the purposes of implementing the OO paradigm, our experience with the EsiObjects project has lead me to refer to MUMPS as a good (no excellent)'enabling language'. (I remember Paul Stylos referring to it as a 'high level assembly language'.) I no longer believe the language specification should be modified to include the object model or include language elements. Guess what - you can implement it in MUMPS! However, what the language needs are more enabling features. Event handling capability comes to mind. When we wrote EsiObjects, it was with the goal of pushing some things down to the MUMPS level. Having said that, we implemented event handling in MUMPS as well and it works great thank you. All things evolve... :-) Terry L. Wiechmann > In my view, simplicity of language design is a good thing -- no, a very > goood thing. But, I do not believe objects ought to be provided via > external libraries. Integration of objects into the core language > actually tends to enhance the simplicity of applications rather than > detract from it. At the language level, well, it's a balancing act. The > "kitchen sink" approach of trying to integrate every feature you might > want is a big mistake in my opinion. Much better to pare down the > language design as much as possible, BUT if you really need something, > include it! Compare, say, the try/except idiom in languages like Java > to setjmp/longjmp in C. > > --- Terry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > No one is offended. Of course EsiObjects layered on several of the > > existing MUMPS system (including Cache) has all the same > > capabilities. > > > > Now they are offended :-) > > > > Terry L. Wiechmann > > > > > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some > > people > > > say, Cache is far
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
Is there a link to the wikki from the WorldVista.org website? I just looked and couldn't see one. Kevin --- Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bhaskar, KS wrote: > > > The above really belongs in the Wiki, doesn't it? > > > Yes it doeshave a look :-): > > http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Installation_How_To_VistA_GT.M_Linux > > Joseph > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] ZWiki for VistA
Nancy, This link would be a good place for you to post a copy of all the news stories you encounter. Kevin --- Ignacio Valdes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If there is no Wiki for VistA, then I've created a > ZWiki page for > VistA here: > > http://www.linuxmednews.com/linuxmednews/vista > > Please feel free to use it. Linux Medical News is > unlikely to go away > soon so the hosting for this should continue for > quite a long time. > Any content placed in it is under the GNU Free > Documentation License > GFDL version 1.2 > http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/fdl.html > > In the future, I will likely place un-obtrusive top > and sidebar ads > around (but not in, and certainly not part of) the > text in return for > hosting it. Pretty much exactly like what > http://www.linuxmednews.com > has right now. > > -- IV > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Sometimes old code deserves to be broken! ;-) Actually, my point was that while the language isn't complicated, it's full of idiosyncrasies like this that can throw people off. --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Greg, > > I agree that the M way of calculating this is > different from other languages. But you couldn't > change this without breaking old code. I would say, > for good coding practice, that the line be written > like this: > > (2+3)*4 > or > 2+(3*4) > > depending which you were really wanting. > In other words, just make the extra effort to be > clear. > > Kevin > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > > 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using > > infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know > > MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I > > learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming > > generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the > > language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > > documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of > > patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any > > other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the > > installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the > > current redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people > > it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really > > well. CoreFLS was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Behalf Of > > > steven > > > mcphelan > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > > management not being able > > > to back > > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably > > very close to the > > > truth. > > > However, I am sure that there were some real > > business management > > > decisions > > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article > > recently that > > > estimated that > > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring > > in the next 5 > > > years. If > > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned > > about that. I > > > would > > > seriously consider moving my technology to a > > platform that enables me > > > to > > > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely > > on in-house > > > training for > > > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > > even consider > > > technology that > > > is inferior to my current technology as long as > > the new technology > > > meets my > > > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel > > matters or provide > > > me the > > > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT > > functions. > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > A practical man is a man who practices the errors of > > his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli > > > > Greg Woodhouse > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > __ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > = A practical man is a man who practices the errors of his forefathers. --Benjamin Dis
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
There is a wiki, but not many have put information there (unfortunately) Here is the link: http://www.mcenter.com/mtrc/pmwiki/pmwiki.php It is also listed as a link on my website at www.geocities.com/kdtop3 Kevin --- "Bhaskar, KS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark -- > > Welcome to the group! > > There is not a Wiki that I know of. > > Also, when you say you have gone through 80% of the > installation, do you > mean loading the software on the PC so that it runs, > or do you mean 80% > of what it takes to get you to using VistA as an > application? > > By the phrase "Internet exposed", do you really mean > that you are > running VistA on a system that is not behind a > firewall (i.e., your > firewall is on the same machine that VistA is on)? > If you are using > GT.M as the database, please review > http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2125&group_id=11026 > which discusses the GT.M security model. > > I hope you will be able to make it to the next VistA > Community Meeting, > in Cambridge, MA, April 7-10 > (http://worldvista.org/meetings/calendar/index.html). > > Regards > -- Bhaskar > > On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 23:40 -0800, Mark Street > wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I have been following the list over the past month > or so. Things seem to be > > heating up over the past week and I feel I know > enough about the group and > > its projects now to contribute. > > > > I have installed Vista on my Internet exposed > Linux server and have worked > > through about 80% of the installation process. > > > > [KSB] <...snip...> > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Greg, I agree that the M way of calculating this is different from other languages. But you couldn't change this without breaking old code. I would say, for good coding practice, that the line be written like this: (2+3)*4 or 2+(3*4) depending which you were really wanting. In other words, just make the extra effort to be clear. Kevin --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > 2+3*4 = 20. > > :-) > > Can you think of even one other language (using > infix notation, that > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know > MIIS, but it might be > an exception.) > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I > learned M. When did > > it all > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming > generation ? I don't > > think > > so. > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the > language. It is the > > shear > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > documented code > > under the hood, which is the result of years of > patching already > > patched > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any > other language. In > > fact, it > > would be much simpler. VA already has the > installed base, > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the > current redesign is > > finished, how well it works , and how many people > it takes to > > support it. > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really > well. CoreFLS was > > a grand > > success. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of > > steven > > mcphelan > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > management not being able > > to back > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably > very close to the > > truth. > > However, I am sure that there were some real > business management > > decisions > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article > recently that > > estimated that > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring > in the next 5 > > years. If > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned > about that. I > > would > > seriously consider moving my technology to a > platform that enables me > > to > > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely > on in-house > > training for > > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > even consider > > technology that > > is inferior to my current technology as long as > the new technology > > meets my > > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel > matters or provide > > me the > > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT > functions. > > > > > > > = > A practical man is a man who practices the errors of > his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli > > Greg Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Greg, I agree that the M way of calculating this is different from other languages. But you couldn't change this without breaking old code. I would say, for good coding practice, that the line be written like this: (2+3)*4 or 2+(3*4) depending which you were really wanting. In other words, just make the extra effort to be clear. Kevin --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because > 2+3*4 = 20. > > :-) > > Can you think of even one other language (using > infix notation, that > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know > MIIS, but it might be > an exception.) > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I > learned M. When did > > it all > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming > generation ? I don't > > think > > so. > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the > language. It is the > > shear > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly > documented code > > under the hood, which is the result of years of > patching already > > patched > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any > other language. In > > fact, it > > would be much simpler. VA already has the > installed base, > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the > current redesign is > > finished, how well it works , and how many people > it takes to > > support it. > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really > well. CoreFLS was > > a grand > > success. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of > > steven > > mcphelan > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA > management not being able > > to back > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably > very close to the > > truth. > > However, I am sure that there were some real > business management > > decisions > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article > recently that > > estimated that > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring > in the next 5 > > years. If > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned > about that. I > > would > > seriously consider moving my technology to a > platform that enables me > > to > > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely > on in-house > > training for > > the next generation of VA IT support. I would > even consider > > technology that > > is inferior to my current technology as long as > the new technology > > meets my > > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel > matters or provide > > me the > > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT > functions. > > > > > > > = > A practical man is a man who practices the errors of > his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli > > Greg Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] CPRS chart 1.0.25.28
Nancy, This issue has come up enough that I think we need to make a cheat sheet. Would you be willing to create a table with CPRS version in the first column, and URL in the second. I could post it on my web site. I think it would be quite helpful. Kevin --- Fernando Telesca <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > What you need is (thanks to Nancy): > > ftp://ftp.va.gov/vista/Software/Packages/Order%20Entry-Results%20Reporting%20-%20OR/OR_30_195.zip > > Rgds, > > Fernando > > - Original Message - > From: "Doctor Bones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:27 AM > Subject: [Hardhats-members] CPRS chart 1.0.25.28 > > > > Hi... I have been incommunicado for several days > trying to > > Grok... just what is going on > > Mucho thanks to Kevin and Nancy! :) > > Ok... So I installed the latest FOIA VistA via > windows... > > Just, so I can see it work... then I will install > it properly in a unix > > environment. > > > > Two questions > > I get a nasty error that says CPRS is verson > 1.0.24.27 > > and my server is 1.0.25.28 I have looked for > the correct > > CPRS chart version but haven't found it. Does > anyone know what > > I can do about this? > > > > Does anyone have the imaging software?... I read > on the VA site that it > > is only available via cd. > > > > Ok... three questions... > > Will cprs chart run on a windows ce device? I > would like to have > > something working on a palm device. > > > > Thanks... > > I still don't understand anything... but I am > progressing. > > > > Mano > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] XWB*1.1*40 compile error
Norman, I think I sent this link. You got it, didn't you? Kevin --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > No i am talking about Kevins code. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Nancy > Anthracite > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 5:13 PM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] XWB*1.1*40 compile > error > > > Norman, are you talking about OSIRIX? The software > that runs on a MAC at > http://homepage.mac.com/rossetantoine/osirix/ ? > > On Friday 25 February 2005 06:34 pm, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Keven what is the website that you mentioned once > that it contained info > > about you imaging software? Thanks. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Kevin > > Toppenberg > > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 12:36 PM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] XWB*1.1*40 compile > error > > > > > > Lloyd, > > > > I haven't compiled this, but I wonder if > > TControlData2.FirstEventOfs is a property that is > read > > only. Try looking at the header where > TControlData2 > > is declared, and see if there is anything special > > about the variable FirstEventOfs. > > > > Kevin > > > > --- Lloyd Milligan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The BDK32 for Delphi 7 creates two RPC Broker > > > components, RPCBroker and > > > CCOWRPCBroker. Neither will compile in my > > > environment. Although the > > > CCOWRPCBroker component has a different name and > > > icon than the RPCBroker > > > component, compiling an application containing > > > either component reaches > > > VERGENCECONTEXTORLib_TLB.pas where the compile > error > > > occurs in this line - > > > > > > TControlData2(CControlData).FirstEventOfs := > > > Cardinal(@@FOnPending) - > > > Cardinal(Self); > > > > > > The error is "Left side cannot be assigned to." > > > > > > Nothing I tried avoids the error except > commenting > > > out the offending line, > > > in which case the application compiles normally. > I > > > should also remark that > > > the RPCBroker component connects properly to the > > > server in any case. > > > > > > I wonder if some special environment setting is > > > needed for the compile. Has > > > anyone else seen this error? Suggestions as to > what > > > might be wrong here > > > would be welcome. > > > > > > Lloyd > > > > > --- > > > > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > > > Products from real users. > > > Discover which products truly live up to the > hype. > > > Start reading now. > > > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > > > > ___ > > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. > > http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > --- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > -- > Nancy Anthracite > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. > Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT > Products from real users. > Discover whi
RE: [Hardhats-members] Very basic VistA information needed
Unfortunately we don't have a page for that (yet). And FYI Nancy - your email address is in the header anyways... From: Nancy Anthracite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> :) /David. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 3:47 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Very basic VistA information needed Mary, if you will contact me off the list, I will get on the phone with you and try to answer your questions, or at least start to answer them. It would take quite a long email to address the things you may want to know and that way you can guide me to the questions you need answered most quickly. nancy at anthracite dot name . On Friday 04 March 2005 02:01 pm, Mary Swim wrote: > Hi, I hope someone here can help me out. I work for a university > division which is trying to asist small rural health clinics in adopting > computerized record keeping. We are currently supporting versions of > CVDEMS and CDEMS, which are MS-Access based and run under Windows. > These are used just to collect basic chart information and track lab > tests and vital stats. > > My boss has asked me to gather some information on VistA. It seems > that it may be way too much for the needs of small offices, but I'm not > sure. I gather there is to be a VistALite or VistAOffice version which > might be more appropriate. > > All the information I can find via Google seems to assume one already > knows all the basics. Is there someone who could give me a short > overview in simple (or even not so simple) English of how Vista works, > especially regarding hardware and software needs. I gather that it runs > only on Linux? I found the demo which runs on Windows. Is there a > Windows client for "real" VistA that connects to a Linux server? What > exactly would be needed to implement VistA in a small medical office > environment? > > Thanks in advance for any help you can give. > > Mary > > ~ > Mary E. Swim, Application Programmer > WVU Office of Health Services Research > West Virginia University > Morgantown, WV 26507 USA > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_ide95&alloc_id396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Multiples in print templates
I seem to recall there is a way to make FM print multiples with single valued fields around their column, but I am drawing a blank on how to express the syntax. Maybe George or someone else can tell us if I am all wet. Generally, you will find that multiples complicate a report because they print out one entry per line and that tends to waste a lot of space on the page. Could you redesign the report so the multiples come at the end of the record's display? Michael Reach wrote: Here's the templates, and the results: [TST,DEV]>s D0=3037 D ^DIPT FIRST PRINT FIELD: "Rule Name: ";S2// THEN PRINT FIELD: RULE NAME;X;L10// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Test Name: ";C24// THEN PRINT FIELD: TEST NAME;X;L18// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Status: ";C55// THEN PRINT FIELD: STATUS;L10;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Last modified: ";C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: MODIFY DATE/TIME;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: ", by ";X// THEN PRINT FIELD: MODIFIED BY;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Components:";S;C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: COMPONENTS// THEN PRINT COMPONENTS SUB-FIELD: COMPONENTS;L5// THEN PRINT COMPONENTS SUB-FIELD: // THEN PRINT FIELD: "Instruments:";C23// THEN PRINT FIELD: INSTRUMENTS// THEN PRINT INSTRUMENTS SUB-FIELD: INSTRUMENTS;L8;"";""// THEN PRINT INSTRUMENTS SUB-FIELD: // THEN PRINT FIELD: "Instr Type: ";C50// THEN PRINT FIELD: INSTRUMENT TYPE;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Current version of rule:";S// THEN PRINT FIELD: TRANSLATION;C5;""// THEN PRINT FIELD: "THEN Autoverify: ";S// THEN PRINT FIELD: THEN AUTO-VERIFY STATUS;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "THEN Action: ";C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: THEN OTHER ACTION;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "THEN Operator Message: ";C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: THEN OPERATOR MESSAGE;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "-";C1;S// RESULTS, one record (the words MOD1 and MOD2 were vertically aligned): RULES FOR VERIFY LIST MAR 4,2005 11:22 PAGE 1 COMPONENTS Rule Name: ALB11 Test Name: ALBUMIN Status: ACTIVE Last modified: FEB 22,2005, by BADIAN,HUGH Components: 113 Instruments: MOD1 MOD2 Instr Type: HITACHI DP Current version of rule: IF ALBUMIN/(TOTAL PROTEIN-ALBUMIN) < 1 THEN Autoverify: NO THEN Action: HOLD THEN Operator Message: Check for clot. Repeat analysis for all tests. --- Can you cut and paste the dialog for the report (sort and print templates) so we can see them? Michael Reach wrote: Hi! I've been having a problem with a Fileman print template. When one of the columns contains data from a multiple, which prints as a vertical list, the next column starts from the end of the multiple list, so it comes out looking like this: Smith Jun 3, 2000 573803111 MOD1 MOD2 MOD3 ACTIVE 71 Jones Jan 2, 2000 212392384 MOD1 INACTIVE 75 Note how ACTIVE and 71 are too low. Of course, I can just put the INSTRUMENTS column last on the right... Can someone explain why this would happen, and how to avoid it? Thanks, Michael Reach Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Multiples in print templates From: Greg Kreis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:33:06 -0500 To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Can you cut and paste the dialog for the report (sort and print templates) so we can see them? Michael Reach wrote: Hi! I've been having a problem with a Fileman print template. When one of the columns contains data from a multiple, which prints as a vertical list, the next column starts from the end of the multiple list, so it comes out looking like this: Smith Jun 3, 2000 573803111 MOD1 MOD2 MOD3 ACTIVE 71 Jones Jan 2, 2000 212392384 MOD1 INACTIVE 75 Note how ACTIVE and 71 are too low. Of course, I can just put the INSTRUMENTS column last on the right... Can someone explain why this would happen, and how to avoid it? Thanks, Michael Reach
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
World Vista seemed like the logical location. http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php I Agree, there should be a main location so as to not duplicate efforts. On Friday 04 March 2005 12:18, Nancy Anthracite wrote: > Which wiki did you contribute on? If we have 3 or 4 of these wikies (sp?) > we are all going to continue to not know where to turn. At the moment > there is Kevin's non-wiki, which is fine with me for now since I am > wiki-shy, and then I think we ought to have a "main wiki" or wikies > specializing different things or something like that. > > What do some of you think? -- Mark Street, RHCE http://www.oswizards.com -- Key fingerprint = 3949 39E4 6317 7C3C 023E 2B1F 6FB3 06E7 D109 56C0 GPG key http://www.oswizards.com/pubkey.asc --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Very basic VistA information needed
Mary, if you will contact me off the list, I will get on the phone with you and try to answer your questions, or at least start to answer them. It would take quite a long email to address the things you may want to know and that way you can guide me to the questions you need answered most quickly. nancy at anthracite dot name . On Friday 04 March 2005 02:01 pm, Mary Swim wrote: > Hi, I hope someone here can help me out. I work for a university > division which is trying to asist small rural health clinics in adopting > computerized record keeping. We are currently supporting versions of > CVDEMS and CDEMS, which are MS-Access based and run under Windows. > These are used just to collect basic chart information and track lab > tests and vital stats. > > My boss has asked me to gather some information on VistA. It seems > that it may be way too much for the needs of small offices, but I'm not > sure. I gather there is to be a VistALite or VistAOffice version which > might be more appropriate. > > All the information I can find via Google seems to assume one already > knows all the basics. Is there someone who could give me a short > overview in simple (or even not so simple) English of how Vista works, > especially regarding hardware and software needs. I gather that it runs > only on Linux? I found the demo which runs on Windows. Is there a > Windows client for "real" VistA that connects to a Linux server? What > exactly would be needed to implement VistA in a small medical office > environment? > > Thanks in advance for any help you can give. > > Mary > > ~ > Mary E. Swim, Application Programmer > WVU Office of Health Services Research > West Virginia University > Morgantown, WV 26507 USA > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
As to the other question, I would suggest looking at www.Hardhats.org and doing the steps after step 31 of the Installation of VistA on Cache instructions and then getting CPRS going. (Chapter 2) The instructions are mostly the same except you don't start things with D ^%CD, you use gtm if you are using GTM or I think "vista" if you are using Bhaskar's setup. Then start working on the things on Kevin's web site, such as setting up a clinic, etc.. That is at http://www.geocities.com/kdtop3/ . After that things get tougher. Then you will have to hit the archives of the mailing list, probably the configuration manuals from Hui, the old Hardhats archives, the documentation at www.va.gov/vdl , the mailing list itself, etc. All of the modules are "installed". You "just" have to get them started up and configured. Therein lies the rub. ;-) On Friday 04 March 2005 01:24 pm, Mark Street wrote: > On Friday 04 March 2005 08:02, Bhaskar, KS wrote: > > [KSB] If you are still in the process of setting up GT.M and the > > environment (vs. configuring VistA itself), let me suggest a much faster > > alternative. > > Wow, much faster. Scratching through the Hui install and config was a > learning experience. I am sure it will come in handy soon. I scratched > the networked box and installed it on my laptop so I can work on it > anywhere. > > Now, where does the faster install leave me in the grand scheme of things? > I would assume I have to configure users, volumes, Mailman, etc. again from > the command prompt as in the installation and configuration guide. The > architecture is still a bit fuzzy. On to the VDL. > > Is there a specific order in which to install packages to bring up a basic > system? I assume Fileman is going to be my friend. > > The wiki is a good thing, mediawiki is a nice package. Thanks! I have > already contributed. -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
Which wiki did you contribute on? If we have 3 or 4 of these wikies (sp?) we are all going to continue to not know where to turn. At the moment there is Kevin's non-wiki, which is fine with me for now since I am wiki-shy, and then I think we ought to have a "main wiki" or wikies specializing different things or something like that. What do some of you think? On Friday 04 March 2005 01:24 pm, Mark Street wrote: > On Friday 04 March 2005 08:02, Bhaskar, KS wrote: > > [KSB] If you are still in the process of setting up GT.M and the > > environment (vs. configuring VistA itself), let me suggest a much faster > > alternative. > > Wow, much faster. Scratching through the Hui install and config was a > learning experience. I am sure it will come in handy soon. I scratched > the networked box and installed it on my laptop so I can work on it > anywhere. > > Now, where does the faster install leave me in the grand scheme of things? > I would assume I have to configure users, volumes, Mailman, etc. again from > the command prompt as in the installation and configuration guide. The > architecture is still a bit fuzzy. On to the VDL. > > Is there a specific order in which to install packages to bring up a basic > system? I assume Fileman is going to be my friend. > > The wiki is a good thing, mediawiki is a nice package. Thanks! I have > already contributed. -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
[Hardhats-members] Very basic VistA information needed
Hi, I hope someone here can help me out. I work for a university division which is trying to asist small rural health clinics in adopting computerized record keeping. We are currently supporting versions of CVDEMS and CDEMS, which are MS-Access based and run under Windows. These are used just to collect basic chart information and track lab tests and vital stats. My boss has asked me to gather some information on VistA. It seems that it may be way too much for the needs of small offices, but I'm not sure. I gather there is to be a VistALite or VistAOffice version which might be more appropriate. All the information I can find via Google seems to assume one already knows all the basics. Is there someone who could give me a short overview in simple (or even not so simple) English of how Vista works, especially regarding hardware and software needs. I gather that it runs only on Linux? I found the demo which runs on Windows. Is there a Windows client for "real" VistA that connects to a Linux server? What exactly would be needed to implement VistA in a small medical office environment? Thanks in advance for any help you can give. Mary ~ Mary E. Swim, Application Programmer WVU Office of Health Services Research West Virginia University Morgantown, WV 26507 USA --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
On Friday 04 March 2005 08:02, Bhaskar, KS wrote: > [KSB] If you are still in the process of setting up GT.M and the > environment (vs. configuring VistA itself), let me suggest a much faster > alternative. Wow, much faster. Scratching through the Hui install and config was a learning experience. I am sure it will come in handy soon. I scratched the networked box and installed it on my laptop so I can work on it anywhere. Now, where does the faster install leave me in the grand scheme of things? I would assume I have to configure users, volumes, Mailman, etc. again from the command prompt as in the installation and configuration guide. The architecture is still a bit fuzzy. On to the VDL. Is there a specific order in which to install packages to bring up a basic system? I assume Fileman is going to be my friend. The wiki is a good thing, mediawiki is a nice package. Thanks! I have already contributed. -- Mark Street, RHCE http://www.oswizards.com -- Key fingerprint = 3949 39E4 6317 7C3C 023E 2B1F 6FB3 06E7 D109 56C0 GPG key http://www.oswizards.com/pubkey.asc --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I can understand your point of view, but I don't entirely agree. Certainly it is possible to retrofit objects onto a language and come up with something you'd rather not use. I don't mean to bash C++, but it's not a language I'd want to use. I like C, but am not a great fan of C++. I like Java quite a bit better, but certainly would not say that it doesn't have its own problems. I don't much like the approach of implementing abstractions such as objects in a language like MUMPS because the result is a lot of syntactic noise. Integration of these abstractions into the language leads to cleaner code that is easier to understand, and easier to maintain. I think you're right (if I understand you correctly) that MUMPS is a good enabling technology prfecisely because it provides a kind of virtual machine (much like JVM or Parrot) and can easily provide a basis for building more complex languages. But MUMPS is also an application language. What Java (for example) does is isolate the JVM as a distinct component and then build a language on top of it. This means that Java byte code can be optimized for the role it is meant to play and can serve as az better foundation for building a language. MUMPS, on the other hand, is already encumbered with constructs that exist only to make it usable as an application language. Now, there has already been one well known attempt to build a new language on top of a full featured application language (namely RATFOR), and I don't believe it was especially successful. I see MUMPS as a language at the crossroads wsith a real tension between the roles it has come to play: is it an application language or is it a VM? In fact, it does do a credible job of being both, but I believe we've reached a point where it might be useful to consider drawing a cleaner line between these two aspects of the language. --- Terry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Let me assert my opinon about MUMPS and OO. Originally I was a strong > believer that the language had to evolve just like C ->C++ -> Java. > However, now that I'm older and wiser (well - older anyway ;-), I > have a > modified view of that. > > For the purposes of implementing the OO paradigm, our experience with > the EsiObjects project has lead me to refer to MUMPS as a good (no > excellent)'enabling language'. (I remember Paul Stylos referring to > it > as a 'high level assembly language'.) I no longer believe the > language > specification should be modified to include the object model or > include > language elements. Guess what - you can implement it in MUMPS! > However, > what the language needs are more enabling features. Event handling > capability comes to mind. When we wrote EsiObjects, it was with the > goal > of pushing some things down to the MUMPS level. Having said that, we > implemented event handling in MUMPS as well and it works great thank > you. > > All things evolve... :-) > > Terry L. Wiechmann > > > In my view, simplicity of language design is a good thing -- no, a > very > > goood thing. But, I do not believe objects ought to be provided via > > external libraries. Integration of objects into the core language > > actually tends to enhance the simplicity of applications rather > than > > detract from it. At the language level, well, it's a balancing act. > The > > "kitchen sink" approach of trying to integrate every feature you > might > > want is a big mistake in my opinion. Much better to pare down the > > language design as much as possible, BUT if you really need > something, > > include it! Compare, say, the try/except idiom in languages like > Java > > to setjmp/longjmp in C. > > > > --- Terry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > No one is offended. Of course EsiObjects layered on several of > the > > > existing MUMPS system (including Cache) has all the same > > > capabilities. > > > > > > Now they are offended :-) > > > > > > Terry L. Wiechmann > > > > > > > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what > some > > > people > > > > say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like > > > objects > > > > without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC > > > connectors, > > > > etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may > have > > > > offended some one already. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > > > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the > VA, > > > however I > > > > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study > > > program). > > > > > > > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the > VA, or > > > any other M > > > > > shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior > > > project > > > of their > > > > > students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more > students > > > work > > > at the VA > > > > > as part of a work/study program would allow more new > programmers > > > to > > > learn M. > > > > >
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
My understanding is that Quest is going to be porting their code to Cache from what they are running now (not sure what brand of MUMPS). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hope I am not just repeating what others have said. Two different times in the 90's I did M programming for Lab Corp as a consultant (the first time under its old name National Health Labs). I also did M programming for Quest under one of its old names of Corning MetPath. I knew that Lab Corp was planning to move away from M in 1996. I do not know how far they got. There were also at least two other medical lab companies that used M in the 90's. Jim Gray Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of Quest and LabCorp using M and I would like to know more so that we can contact the right people. Can email me some information (nancy at anthracite dot name) please ? Otherwise, who knows if the message will get where it needs to go. On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students start thier resume and have work references before leaving school. M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. Marcia -- Original Message -- Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push from anyone to change. Thanks Marc Aylesworth C3I Associates AFRL/IFSE Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team 525 Brooks Rd Rome, NY 13441-4505 Tel:315.330.2422 Fax:315.330.7009 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Greg Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. :-) Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be an exception.) --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did it all of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't think so. The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the shear size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already patched code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In fact, it would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, and the in-house expertise. We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to support it. Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was a grand success. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of steven mcphelan Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival I believe Cameron's statement about the VA management not being able to back off
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Let me assert my opinon about MUMPS and OO. Originally I was a strong believer that the language had to evolve just like C ->C++ -> Java. However, now that I'm older and wiser (well - older anyway ;-), I have a modified view of that. For the purposes of implementing the OO paradigm, our experience with the EsiObjects project has lead me to refer to MUMPS as a good (no excellent)'enabling language'. (I remember Paul Stylos referring to it as a 'high level assembly language'.) I no longer believe the language specification should be modified to include the object model or include language elements. Guess what - you can implement it in MUMPS! However, what the language needs are more enabling features. Event handling capability comes to mind. When we wrote EsiObjects, it was with the goal of pushing some things down to the MUMPS level. Having said that, we implemented event handling in MUMPS as well and it works great thank you. All things evolve... :-) Terry L. Wiechmann > In my view, simplicity of language design is a good thing -- no, a very > goood thing. But, I do not believe objects ought to be provided via > external libraries. Integration of objects into the core language > actually tends to enhance the simplicity of applications rather than > detract from it. At the language level, well, it's a balancing act. The > "kitchen sink" approach of trying to integrate every feature you might > want is a big mistake in my opinion. Much better to pare down the > language design as much as possible, BUT if you really need something, > include it! Compare, say, the try/except idiom in languages like Java > to setjmp/longjmp in C. > > --- Terry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > No one is offended. Of course EsiObjects layered on several of the > > existing MUMPS system (including Cache) has all the same > > capabilities. > > > > Now they are offended :-) > > > > Terry L. Wiechmann > > > > > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some > > people > > > say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like > > objects > > > without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC > > connectors, > > > etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have > > > offended some one already. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, > > however I > > > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study > > program). > > > > > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or > > any other M > > > > shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior > > project > > of their > > > > students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students > > work > > at the VA > > > > as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers > > to > > learn M. > > > > They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier > > senior year > > > > as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and > > create > > a new > > > > talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students > > start thier > > > > resume and have work references before leaving school. > > > > > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a > > mentoring > > > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that > > makes this > > > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably > > unaware of > > > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These > > programmers should > > > > be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is > > not > > just VA > > > > specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > > institutions. > > > > > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a > > language in > > > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it > > Mumps is a > > > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for > > newer > > > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to > > teach it. > > > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were > > 4 > > students > > > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so > > they > > could > > > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like > > SQL2000. The > > > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is > > no > > push > > > > from anyone to change. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Marc
RE: [Hardhats-members] RE: A parallel strategy for evolving VistA - Re: [Hardhats-member s] MDC Revival
Jim, the stovepipes are the underlying clinical (and some clinical/administrative) packages, such as Lab, Pharmacy, V-files, PCE, TIU, Bed Control, PTF, Radiology, etc.Many of these packages were developed years ago (I believe initially atdifferent medical centers, and then at different Field Offices). I also believe that originally some of these packages had their own patient files.All of these packages store what could be classified as results, reports, etc in what really amount to seperate databases within the M/Fileman, environment."Stovepipes" in a sense.Navigating these files/databases to do clinically relevant queries using Filemancan be daunting at times. Think of trying to identify a simple cohort ofpatients who meet the following criteria: "All female patients taking Digoxin, with a potassium level less than a certain threshhold value".One must jump from patient file, to some very compli cated lab files, to the prescription file. It's probably simpler to just write a custom program to do this, than to try to frame the query in Fileman.Nowadays, some of these queries can be done with CPRS. But we're talking years after it could have been available. Also I think CPRS would have difficulty with more complex queries than my example.For many years, here at Indianapolis, we used a system called RMRS. It was a clinical repository, written in M, that was loosely based on the Regenstrief Medical Record system, which was originally created at the Regenstrief Institute.At the heart of this system is a single M-based file, that stores 27different types of clinical data in a standardized way.It is fed its data by HL7 messages, from Vista, or, any commercial package that sends the data in the proper HL7 format.The file is easily queryable on a patient by patient basis, or across the entire file, to identify cohorts of patients, as described above.The system could even be programmed to page physicians, when laboratoryresults on their patients were outside reference values.The system was abandoned, mainly because the lead developer left the VA, and because Vista did not contain the necessary mapping tools to map non-standard terms to standard ones in an efficient manner. Mapping them manually, was not impossible, but it was resource intensive.These same issues have resurfaced 10 years later with the HDR, but this time a properly resourced team of Data Standardization people has been assembled to revisit the issue. So, we are "back to the future" in a sense.My point is, that Vista could be much simplified, with an architecture like this, if it were redesigned with "lessons learned" taken into consideration. It could be done in M, because after all, it has already been done once in M.Finally, I will tell you that I am not the person best qualified toproselytize on this system. Nor am I sure the original developer has any further interst in the system. I am simply saying that I am a fan of the architecture. Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Hope I am not just repeating what others have said. Two different times in the 90's I did M programming for Lab Corp as a consultant (the first time under its old name National Health Labs). I also did M programming for Quest under one of its old names of Corning MetPath. I knew that Lab Corp was planning to move away from M in 1996. I do not know how far they got. There were also at least two other medical lab companies that used M in the 90's. Jim Gray > Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of Quest and LabCorp using M and > I > would like to know more so that we can contact the right people. Can email > me some information (nancy at anthracite dot name) please ? Otherwise, who > knows if the message will get where it needs to go. > > On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other > > M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of > > their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work > > at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers > > to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during > > thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people to M > > and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the > > students start thier resume and have work references before leaving school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers > > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not > > just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push > > from anyone to change. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > C3I Associates > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > > Woodhouse > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
It has been my experience on a number of occasions that the first step in solving a difficult problem is to generalize it. --- Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sometimes its worth making the problem "larger" in order to solve > it > Marcia's suggestions are brilliant > > Joseph > >>Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably > unaware of > >>this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These > programmers > >>should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it > is not > >>just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > institutions. > >> > >>Marcia > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > = A practical man is a man who practices the errors of his forefathers. --Benjamin Disraeli Greg Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Sometimes its worth making the problem "larger" in order to solve it Marcia's suggestions are brilliant Joseph Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. Marcia --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
In my view, simplicity of language design is a good thing -- no, a very goood thing. But, I do not believe objects ought to be provided via external libraries. Integration of objects into the core language actually tends to enhance the simplicity of applications rather than detract from it. At the language level, well, it's a balancing act. The "kitchen sink" approach of trying to integrate every feature you might want is a big mistake in my opinion. Much better to pare down the language design as much as possible, BUT if you really need something, include it! Compare, say, the try/except idiom in languages like Java to setjmp/longjmp in C. --- Terry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No one is offended. Of course EsiObjects layered on several of the > existing MUMPS system (including Cache) has all the same > capabilities. > > Now they are offended :-) > > Terry L. Wiechmann > > > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some > people > > say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like > objects > > without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC > connectors, > > etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have > > offended some one already. > > > > Bob > > > > > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, > however I > > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study > program). > > > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or > any other M > > > shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior > project > of their > > > students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students > work > at the VA > > > as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers > to > learn M. > > > They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier > senior year > > > as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and > create > a new > > > talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students > start thier > > > resume and have work references before leaving school. > > > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a > mentoring > > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that > makes this > > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably > unaware of > > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These > programmers should > > > be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is > not > just VA > > > specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > institutions. > > > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a > language in > > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it > Mumps is a > > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for > newer > > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to > teach it. > > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were > 4 > students > > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so > they > could > > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like > SQL2000. The > > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is > no > push > > > from anyone to change. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > > > C3I Associates > > > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Greg > > > Woodhouse > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, > that > > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it > might be > > > an exception.) > > > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. > When did > > > > it all > > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I > don't > > > > think > > > > so. > > > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
Bhaskar, KS wrote: The above really belongs in the Wiki, doesn't it? Yes it doeshave a look :-): http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Installation_How_To_VistA_GT.M_Linux Joseph --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I actually think of it as a natural evolution from the core language (ANSI MUMPS) plus several of the libraries that have been created to support it. --- "Robert M. Witkop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some > people > say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like > objects > without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC > connectors, > etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have > offended some one already. > > Bob > > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, > however I > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study > program). > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or > any other M > > shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project > of their > > students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students > work at the VA > > as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers to > learn M. > > They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier > senior year > > as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and > create a new > > talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students > start thier > > resume and have work references before leaving school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a > mentoring > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that > makes this > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably > unaware of > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These > programmers should > > be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not > just VA > > specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a > language in > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it > Mumps is a > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to > teach it. > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 > students > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so > they could > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like > SQL2000. The > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is > no push > > from anyone to change. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > C3I Associates > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Greg > > Woodhouse > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, > that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it > might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When > did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I > don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is > the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. > In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current > redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS > was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > > steven > > > mcphelan > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06
Re: [Hardhats-members] Multiples in print templates
Here's the templates, and the results: [TST,DEV]>s D0=3037 D ^DIPT FIRST PRINT FIELD: "Rule Name: ";S2// THEN PRINT FIELD: RULE NAME;X;L10// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Test Name: ";C24// THEN PRINT FIELD: TEST NAME;X;L18// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Status: ";C55// THEN PRINT FIELD: STATUS;L10;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Last modified: ";C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: MODIFY DATE/TIME;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: ", by ";X// THEN PRINT FIELD: MODIFIED BY;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Components:";S;C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: COMPONENTS// THEN PRINT COMPONENTS SUB-FIELD: COMPONENTS;L5// THEN PRINT COMPONENTS SUB-FIELD: // THEN PRINT FIELD: "Instruments:";C23// THEN PRINT FIELD: INSTRUMENTS// THEN PRINT INSTRUMENTS SUB-FIELD: INSTRUMENTS;L8;"";""// THEN PRINT INSTRUMENTS SUB-FIELD: // THEN PRINT FIELD: "Instr Type: ";C50// THEN PRINT FIELD: INSTRUMENT TYPE;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "Current version of rule:";S// THEN PRINT FIELD: TRANSLATION;C5;""// THEN PRINT FIELD: "THEN Autoverify: ";S// THEN PRINT FIELD: THEN AUTO-VERIFY STATUS;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "THEN Action: ";C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: THEN OTHER ACTION;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "THEN Operator Message: ";C1// THEN PRINT FIELD: THEN OPERATOR MESSAGE;X// THEN PRINT FIELD: "-";C1;S// RESULTS, one record (the words MOD1 and MOD2 were vertically aligned): RULES FOR VERIFY LIST MAR 4,2005 11:22 PAGE 1 COMPONENTS Rule Name: ALB11 Test Name: ALBUMIN Status: ACTIVE Last modified: FEB 22,2005, by BADIAN,HUGH Components: 113 Instruments: MOD1 MOD2 Instr Type: HITACHI DP Current version of rule: IF ALBUMIN/(TOTAL PROTEIN-ALBUMIN) < 1 THEN Autoverify: NO THEN Action: HOLD THEN Operator Message: Check for clot. Repeat analysis for all tests. --- Can you cut and paste the dialog for the report (sort and print templates) so we can see them? Michael Reach wrote: >Hi! I've been having a problem with a Fileman print template. When one >of the columns contains data from a multiple, which prints as a vertical >list, the next column starts from the end of the multiple list, so it >comes out looking like this: > >Smith Jun 3, 2000 573803111 MOD1 > MOD2 > MOD3 > ACTIVE 71 > >Jones Jan 2, 2000 212392384 MOD1 INACTIVE > 75 > >Note how ACTIVE and 71 are too low. Of course, I can just put the >INSTRUMENTS column last on the right... Can someone explain why this >would happen, and how to avoid it? > >Thanks, >Michael Reach --- Begin Message --- Can you cut and paste the dialog for the report (sort and print templates) so we can see them? Michael Reach wrote: Hi! I've been having a problem with a Fileman print template. When one of the columns contains data from a multiple, which prints as a vertical list, the next column starts from the end of the multiple list, so it comes out looking like this: Smith Jun 3, 2000 573803111 MOD1 MOD2 MOD3 ACTIVE 71 Jones Jan 2, 2000 212392384 MOD1 INACTIVE 75 Note how ACTIVE and 71 are too low. Of course, I can just put the INSTRUMENTS column last on the right... Can someone explain why this would happen, and how to avoid it? Thanks, Michael Reach --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- End Message ---
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Thank you, Marcia! I, for one, was unaware of Quest and LabCorp using M and I would like to know more so that we can contact the right people. Can email me some information (nancy at anthracite dot name) please ? Otherwise, who knows if the message will get where it needs to go. On Thursday 03 March 2005 08:41 am, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other > M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of > their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work > at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers > to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during > thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people to M > and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the > students start thier resume and have work references before leaving school. > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not > just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. > > Marcia > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push > from anyone to change. > > Thanks > > Marc Aylesworth > > C3I Associates > > AFRL/IFSE > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > 525 Brooks Rd > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > Woodhouse > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > :-) > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > an exception.) > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > it all > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > think > > so. > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > > shear > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > > patched > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In > > fact, it > > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is > > finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to > > support it. > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was > > a grand > > success. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > steven > > mcphelan > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA management not being able > > to back > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably very close to the > > truth. > > However, I am sure that there were some real business management > > decisions > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article recently that > > estimated that > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring in the next 5 > > years. If > > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned about that.
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Local developer's at sites are using the Cache-specific tools, CSP's, Objects, SQL, etc. Why not ? We've already paid for them. True, they may not work if VA sways in a different direction, but I'm pretty confident Cache will be around in VA for at least another 5 years, which is a long enough life cycle to justify the effort on most local projects. Besides, it's fun for the developers, and the user's love the products produced. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:57 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival I don't think you offend anybody, but it was my understanding that the VA was only using ANSI standard mumps code in their installations even on Cache. The other things are very nice and can be used with VistA, no doubt about it, but also not open source if one chooses to use an open source stack. On Friday 04 March 2005 10:31 am, Robert M. Witkop wrote: > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some people > say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like objects > without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC connectors, > etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have > offended some one already. > > Bob > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however > > I first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any > > other M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior > > project of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more > > students work at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more > > new programmers to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some > > programming during thier senior year as the senior project. This will > > expose more people to M and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. > > It would also help the students start thier resume and have work > > references before leaving school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes > > this language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware > > of this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers > > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is > > not just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > > institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is > > a niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 > > students and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so > > they could extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like > > SQL2000. The developers are going to use what they know and right now > > there is no push from anyone to change. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > C3I Associates > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > > Woodhouse > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > >
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I would hope that no one has been offended. The fact is that what Bob says only underlines the reasons for reactivation of the MDC since the features meantioned are ones that were parts of the MDC dialog (formal and informal) prior to its last meeting in Oct 1999. Many are part of the "Millenium Standard" that never got voted on and may are features that need consensus about the common conventions for representation of the concept. This in no way derogates the fact that Intersystems has implemented these features but illustrates the need for common conventions for that feature. The market will have to decide whose implementation provides a benefit to the purchaser and for what reason. Moreover, there are at least three Suppliers of M data management components and their mere co-existence means that each must work at its market offerings. Thats is a benefit to each Supplier as well as to their potential customers. That competition will maintain keen scrutiny of features included in the Common description (M standard) and not constrain innnovation. We will all need to educate the various elements of our workforce now this benefits each. Also it will help the end users identify capabilities that either use the existing features or suggest new features. Intersystems, as well as all the other Suppliers, will benefit from the consensus process and we must all understand this reality. On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Robert M. Witkop wrote: Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some people say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like objects without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC connectors, etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have offended some one already. Bob On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students start thier resume and have work references before leaving school. M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. Marcia -- Original Message -- Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push from anyone to change. Thanks Marc Aylesworth C3I Associates AFRL/IFSE Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team 525 Brooks Rd Rome, NY 13441-4505 Tel:315.330.2422 Fax:315.330.7009 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. :-) Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be an exception.) --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did it all of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't think so. The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the shear size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code under the hood, which is the result of years of patc
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
Comments below. -- Bhaskar On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 09:55 -0800, Mark Street wrote: > On Thursday 03 March 2005 06:27, Bhaskar, KS wrote: > > There is not a Wiki that I know of. > > Would there be intrest in a wiki for collaborative documentation? [KSB] Since there seems to be problems with mail delivery, at the risk of repetition, let me repeat the URL of a Wiki that went live in the last 24 hours: http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php? title=Main_Page > > Also, when you say you have gone through 80% of the installation, do you > > mean loading the software on the PC so that it runs, or do you mean 80% > > of what it takes to get you to using VistA as an application? > > Let's just say I am almost through the OpenVista on GT.M on Linux > Installation > and Configuraton Manual. [KSB] If you are still in the process of setting up GT.M and the environment (vs. configuring VistA itself), let me suggest a much faster alternative. You will need Xdialog (http://xdialog.dyns.net) on your PC for this approach. Download an OpenVistA SemiVivA file (either OpenVistA SemiVivA 0.4 or OpenVistA SemiVivA FOIA Gold 20050212), say to /Distrib/OpenVistA. The following will install GT.M and OpenVistA (replace the filename in the second line with appropriate name of downloaded file): su - tar zxvf /Distrib/OpenVistA/OpenVistASemiVivAFOIAGold20050212.tgz Assuming your userid is "vista" as the normal user vista, execute: /usr/local/OpenVistA/vista --install /home/vista/myVistA/OpenVistA (or other desired location) and reply in the affirmative when you are prompted about creating directories. Subsequently, to run it, just execute: /usr/local/OpenVistA/vista --run /home/vista/myVistA/OpenVistA The above really belongs in the Wiki, doesn't it? > > By the phrase "Internet exposed", do you really mean that you are > > running VistA on a system that is not behind a firewall (i.e., your > > firewall is on the same machine that VistA is on)? If you are using > > GT.M as the database, please review > > http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2125&group_id=11026 > > which discusses the GT.M security model. > > The firewall machine is running Vista also, I will review the security model. [KSB] I recommend against this. Not that I know of any specific vulnerability in GT.M/Linux, or your firewall, but rather that I believe in the principle of layered defenses. Oracle, for example, recommends against putting a database server on a machine that is not behind a firewall (as opposed to being the firewall). > > I hope you will be able to make it to the next VistA Community Meeting, > > in Cambridge, MA, April 7-10 > > (http://worldvista.org/meetings/calendar/index.html). > > I wish. --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
No one is offended. Of course EsiObjects layered on several of the existing MUMPS system (including Cache) has all the same capabilities. Now they are offended :-) Terry L. Wiechmann > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some people > say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like objects > without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC connectors, > etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have > offended some one already. > > Bob > > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I > > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other M > > shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of their > > students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work at the VA > > as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers to learn M. > > They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier senior year > > as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and create a new > > talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students start thier > > resume and have work references before leaving school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this > > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of > > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers should > > be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not just VA > > specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a > > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students > > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could > > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The > > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push > > from anyone to change. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > C3I Associates > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > > Woodhouse > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > > steven > > > mcphelan > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-mem
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
Give it a whirl. I used it with Fedora Core 1 on a few test installations but had occasional problems installing GTM using the script that comes with it on a core 1 box. It is not an earthshaking problem if it doesn't go on. It is quick and painless to try installing it and if it installs, it works just fine. I tried Core 2 twice, and it went on OK. On Thursday 03 March 2005 03:22 pm, Fox, Kirk wrote: > Question can Fedora Core 1 be used with GTM? > Thanks. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bhaskar, > KS > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:28 AM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats > > > Mark -- > > Welcome to the group! > > There is not a Wiki that I know of. > > Also, when you say you have gone through 80% of the installation, do you > mean loading the software on the PC so that it runs, or do you mean 80% of > what it takes to get you to using VistA as an application? > > By the phrase "Internet exposed", do you really mean that you are running > VistA on a system that is not behind a firewall (i.e., your firewall is on > the same machine that VistA is on)? If you are using GT.M as the database, > please review > http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2125&group_id=11026 > which discusses the GT.M security model. > > I hope you will be able to make it to the next VistA Community Meeting, in > Cambridge, MA, April 7-10 > (http://worldvista.org/meetings/calendar/index.html). > > Regards > -- Bhaskar > > On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 23:40 -0800, Mark Street wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I have been following the list over the past month or so. Things seem > > to be > > heating up over the past week and I feel I know enough about the group > > and > > > > its projects now to contribute. > > > > I have installed Vista on my Internet exposed Linux server and have > > worked > > through about 80% of the installation process. > > [KSB] <...snip...> > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I don't think you offend anybody, but it was my understanding that the VA was only using ANSI standard mumps code in their installations even on Cache. The other things are very nice and can be used with VistA, no doubt about it, but also not open source if one chooses to use an open source stack. On Friday 04 March 2005 10:31 am, Robert M. Witkop wrote: > Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some people > say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like objects > without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC connectors, > etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have > offended some one already. > > Bob > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however > > I first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any > > other M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior > > project of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more > > students work at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more > > new programmers to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some > > programming during thier senior year as the senior project. This will > > expose more people to M and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. > > It would also help the students start thier resume and have work > > references before leaving school. > > > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring > > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes > > this language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware > > of this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers > > should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is > > not just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of > > institutions. > > > > Marcia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in > > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is > > a niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. > > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 > > students and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so > > they could extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like > > SQL2000. The developers are going to use what they know and right now > > there is no push from anyone to change. > > > > Thanks > > > > Marc Aylesworth > > > > C3I Associates > > > > AFRL/IFSE > > > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > > > 525 Brooks Rd > > > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > > Woodhouse > > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > > > :-) > > > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > > an exception.) > > > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > > it all > > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > > think > > > so. > > > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > > > shear > > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > > > patched > > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In > > > fact, it > > > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is > > > finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to > > > support it. > > > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was > > > a grand > > > success. > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > > steven > > > mcph
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
Yes, but the VA has moved up to Cache. And contrary to what some people say, Cache is far more advanced than MUMPS. Little things like objects without using wrappers, SQL without third party tools, ODBC connectors, etc. I could go on with the technological advances, but I may have offended some one already. Bob On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 05:41, MARCIA MCKINZIE wrote: > I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I > first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). > > One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other M > shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of their > students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work at the VA > as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers to learn M. > They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier senior year > as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and create a new > talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students start thier > resume and have work references before leaving school. > > M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring > environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this > language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. > > Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of > this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers should > be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not just VA > specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. > > Marcia > > > > > > > -- Original Message -- > Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST > From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in > school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a > niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer > developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. > When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students > and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could > extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The > developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push > from anyone to change. > > Thanks > > Marc Aylesworth > > C3I Associates > > AFRL/IFSE > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > 525 Brooks Rd > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > Woodhouse > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. > > :-) > > Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that > is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be > an exception.) > > --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > > it all > > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > > think > > so. > > > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > > shear > > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > > patched > > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In > > fact, it > > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > > and the in-house expertise. > > > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is > > finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to > > support it. > > > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was > > a grand > > success. > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > steven > > mcphelan > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA management not being able > > to back > > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably very close to the > > truth. > > However, I am sure that there were some real business management > > decisions > > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article recently that > > estimated that > > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring in the next 5 > > years. If
RE: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats -- Wiki!
The use of a Wiki has come up A LOT (a large part by Kevin and me). So... can we fire this thread up and get some action items? As I've stated before - I can offer up my services for setup and hosting but we reached a point where the group agreed that "HardHats would be the best medium". If we stay true to that statement, can we get an ETA? If not, could I be of any help? /David. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Street Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:40 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats Hello, I have been following the list over the past month or so. Things seem to be heating up over the past week and I feel I know enough about the group and its projects now to contribute. I have installed Vista on my Internet exposed Linux server and have worked through about 80% of the installation process. My background is somewhat unique in that I am a chiropractor on staff in a FQHC in a small rural city in Northern California, management is very interested in what Vista can do. I am also a Linux professional and teach all Linux System Administration courses at the local college. Not being a programmer by training I can hack myself out of a jam in most interpreted programming languages. I am still trying to figure out all the different facets and organizations of this project and how they all fit together One question I do have. Is there a wiki or collaborative documentation project for Vista? As I was working through the Installation manual I noted some inconsistencies, order and or relevance issues in some of the steps. It might be helpful to start such a resource. Mailing lists are great, but you have to keep up and reference the pearls of wisdom as you see them. -- Mark Street D.C., RHCE http://www.oswizards.com -- Key fingerprint = 3949 39E4 6317 7C3C 023E 2B1F 6FB3 06E7 D109 56C0 GPG key http://www.oswizards.com/pubkey.asc --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_ide95&alloc_id396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
FIrst, Welcome. We can use anybody and everybody who wants to help, but your skills would be a particularly welcome addition to our group. I hope you will be able to join us in Boston and really get your feet wet. I am curious what manual you are using and what version of VistA you are installing. If it is the one from he HUI site, there is a newer edition of OpenVistA with the initial installation of GTM and directory configuration, etc, done for you on SourceForge. I would be happy to call you and discuss the various versions, etc., so you will know what will work best for you. Kevin also has an installation XML file that would probably work on a system configured like the ones on Sourcforge. The likely reason it did not work on mine is because I had it set up differently, more like the original Hui project, but not quite the same. I would think the closest thing to a collection of the various documents we have in the various stages is on Kevin's OpenVistA site at http://www.geocities.com/kdtop3/ In addition, there is a lot of information on the Hardhats site at www.Hardhats.org. The installation document there applies to GTM on Linux installations as well as Cache installations after about step 31 or so. The site is a goldmine of other information that you will enjoy exploring. Documentation is something we really need, and the suggestion that we write a book for Riley to publish is not a new one. We would like to do it, but more worker bees are needed before something like that will happen. Unfortunately, one of our best contributors for documentation, Fil Beza, just died. He was working on some that I doubt we will ever see. On Thursday 03 March 2005 02:40 am, Mark Street wrote: > Hello, > > I have been following the list over the past month or so. Things seem to > be heating up over the past week and I feel I know enough about the group > and its projects now to contribute. > > I have installed Vista on my Internet exposed Linux server and have worked > through about 80% of the installation process. > > My background is somewhat unique in that I am a chiropractor on staff in a > FQHC in a small rural city in Northern California, management is very > interested in what Vista can do. I am also a Linux professional and teach > all Linux System Administration courses at the local college. Not being a > programmer by training I can hack myself out of a jam in most interpreted > programming languages. > > I am still trying to figure out all the different facets and organizations > of this project and how they all fit together > > One question I do have. > > Is there a wiki or collaborative documentation project for Vista? > > As I was working through the Installation manual I noted some > inconsistencies, order and or relevance issues in some of the steps. It > might be helpful to start such a resource. Mailing lists are great, but > you have to keep up and reference the pearls of wisdom as you see them. -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival
I have been an Mumps programmer for 15+ years, outside of the VA, however I first learned the language at the VA (as part of a work/study program). One of the problems, new programmers, can be solved by the VA, or any other M shop. Many universities and colleges now requires a senior project of their students. Contacting local collages to have 1 or more students work at the VA as part of a work/study program would allow more new programmers to learn M. They would be learning M and doing some programming during thier senior year as the senior project. This will expose more people to M and create a new talent pool for the VA to hire. It would also help the students start thier resume and have work references before leaving school. M has always been unique, not being taught in school, but in a mentoring environment. It would be a shame to throw away the culture that makes this language so unique, instead we should use it to grow and expand. Additionally, many programmers out there that use M are probably unaware of this discussion.(Quest, Kaiser Permanente, Labcorp) These programmers should be drawn in and included in the revival of MDC. That way it is not just VA specific and will meet the needs of a wide variety of institutions. Marcia -- Original Message -- Received: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:25:09 AM EST From: Aylesworth Marc A Contr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net'" Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Mumps is not hard to learn. There is no motivation to learn a language in school or other places unless it is going to be useful, face it Mumps is a niche language for writing databases. There is no reason for newer developers to learn Mumps so there is no reason for schools to teach it. When I went to a training class for Mumps 3-4 yrs ago there were 4 students and three of them were from the VA and wanted to learn Mumps so they could extract info out of Vista to put it into a relational DB like SQL2000. The developers are going to use what they know and right now there is no push from anyone to change. Thanks Marc Aylesworth C3I Associates AFRL/IFSE Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team 525 Brooks Rd Rome, NY 13441-4505 Tel:315.330.2422 Fax:315.330.7009 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:08 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival Oh, that's easy: MUMPS is hard to learn because 2+3*4 = 20. :-) Can you think of even one other language (using infix notation, that is) where this is true? (Okay, okay, I don't know MIIS, but it might be an exception.) --- "Sowinski, Richard J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When did everyone get so dumb ? You learned M. I learned M. When did > it all > of a sudden get so difficult to learn it ? > Are you saying we were smarter than the upcoming generation ? I don't > think > so. > > The real problem with Vista right now is not the language. It is the > shear > size of it, and the rat's nest of poorly documented code > under the hood, which is the result of years of patching already > patched > code. I liken it to a huge wad of gum. > > A redesign in M is as valid as a redesign in any other language. In > fact, it > would be much simpler. VA already has the installed base, > and the in-house expertise. > > We'll find out 10 years from now (maybe) when the current redesign is > finished, how well it works , and how many people it takes to > support it. > > Oh yeah, by the way, outsourcing has worked really well. CoreFLS was > a grand > success. > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > steven > mcphelan > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:06 AM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] MDC Revival > > > I believe Cameron's statement about the VA management not being able > to back > off of migrating to a newer platform is probably very close to the > truth. > However, I am sure that there were some real business management > decisions > made (or at least I hope so). I saw an article recently that > estimated that > 40-50% of the current VA IT staff will be retiring in the next 5 > years. If > I was a manager of VA IT I would be very concerned about that. I > would > seriously consider moving my technology to a platform that enables me > to > recruit competent IT staff without having to rely on in-house > training for > the next generation of VA IT support. I would even consider > technology that > is inferior to my current technology as long as the new technology > meets my > needs and gives me greater flexibilty in personnel matters or provide > me the > opportunity to competitively outsource some IT functions. > > = A practical man is a man who practices the errors of his forefathers. --Benjamin Di
Re: [Hardhats-members] Resending - VistA Community Documentation Wiki
Joseph, this is the third time I have received it as well! On Thursday 03 March 2005 05:42 pm, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: > This is the third time I have tried to post thisplease excuse me if > you have received it already: > > Original Message > Subject: VistA Community Documentation Wiki (was) Greetings Hardhats -- > Wiki! > Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:31:05 -0500 > From: Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > Here is some fire for the thread David: > > Dave Whitten (thanks David!) has been working on setting up a wiki > linked to the WorldVistA sourceforge code repository. It has been up > and running for a while in test mode. It is clearly a good time to > enlist more hands to help with its birth. From a community perspective > It would make the most sense to "integrate" the documentation with the > codeso suggestions and volunteers to modify the sourceforge pages to > provide "one stop shopping" will be most welcome. The worldvista.org > and hardhats.org sites can then be updated with the appropriate links > > We can start by adding Kevin's work to improve the installation > documentation.Nancy you've got some stuff that's in draft I think > that could be added too. > > At this point anyone can create an account and there are no restrictions > on editingif this proves to be too liberal we can change the > permissions etc. The URLwhich will be simplified is: > > http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/ > > It would be ideal if two people would volunteer to coordinate and manage > the documentation wiki...and here is a challengeit would be great to > have at least the current body of documentation loaded into the Wiki in > time for the Boston meeting. > > Cheers, > > Joseph > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] RE: A parallel strategy for evolving VistA - Re: [Hardhats-member s] MDC Revival
I too am a fan of the architecture that Rich describes. There are certain elements of it that were used (through a very different set of circumstances) in the FHIE project (and now with several projects that have derived from that framework.) The simplicity of the structure coupled with the complexity permitted in the associations using a powerful reference terminology make it one of the most appealing architectures. Until about a dozen years ago, every major package in VistA was "re-engineered" every 6 to 18 months when major package "versions" were released. It was a sad day when major versions were no longer to be permitted except in the rarest of circumstances. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 7:31 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] RE: A parallel strategy for evolving VistA - Re: [Hardhats-member s] MDC Revival Jim, the stovepipes are the underlying clinical (and some clinical/administrative) packages, such as Lab, Pharmacy, V-files, PCE, TIU, Bed Control, PTF, Radiology, etc. Many of these packages were developed years ago (I believe initially at different medical centers, and then at different Field Offices). I also believe that originally some of these packages had their own patient files ! All of these packages store what could be classified as results, reports, etc in what really amount to seperate databases within the M/Fileman, environment. "Stovepipes" in a sense. Navigating these files/databases to do clinically relevant queries using Fileman can be daunting at times. Think of trying to identify a simple cohort of patients who meet the following criteria: "All female patients taking Digoxin, with a potassium level less than a certain threshhold value". One must jump from patient file, to some very complicated lab files, to the prescription file. It's probably simpler to just write a custom program to do this, than to try to frame the query in Fileman. Nowadays, some of these queries can be done with CPRS. But we're talking years after it could have been available. Also I think CPRS would have difficulty with more complex queries than my example. For many years, here at Indianapolis, we used a system called RMRS. It was a clinical repository, written in M, that was loosely based on the Regenstrief Medical Record system, which was originally created at the Regenstrief Institute. At the heart of this system is a single M-based file, that stores 27 different types of clinical data in a standardized way. It is fed its data by HL7 messages, from Vista, or, any commercial package that sends the data in the proper HL7 format. The file is easily queryable on a patient by patient basis, or across the entire file, to identify cohorts of patients, as described above. The system could even be programmed to page physicians, when laboratory results on their patients were outside reference values. The system was abandoned, mainly because the lead developer left the VA, and because Vista did not contain the necessary mapping tools to map non-standard terms to standard ones in an efficient manner. Mapping them manually, was not impossible, but it was resource intensive. These same issues have resurfaced 10 years later with the HDR, but this time a properly resourced team of Data Standardization people has been assembled to revisit the issue. And so we are "back to the future" in a sense. My point is, that Vista could be much simplified, with an architecture like this, if it were redesigned with "lessons learned" taken into consideration. It could be done in M, because after all, it has already been done once in M. Finally, I will tell you that I am not the person best qualified to proselytize on this system. Nor am I sure the original developer has any further interst in the system. I am simply saying that I am a fan of the architecture. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jim Self Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 5:24 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] RE: A parallel strategy for evolving VistA - Re: [Hardhats-member s] MDC Revival Richard, You make some excellent points. Any long-lived system needs to be re-engineered periodically (continually, if possible) in order to adapt to changing technology and the changing expectations of its users. I would think that much of the re-engineering that you speak of is a necessary part of any manageable comprehensive transition to a newer platform whether it be Java or M2Web or something else. What are the 30 year old stovepipes? As I understand it, the DHCP kernel was formed only about 20 years ago. What would your standardized, easily query able format look like? What would make it easy? Richard.Sowinski wrote: >A rational "plan A" might have been to re-engineer Vista such that the >clinical packages w
RE: [Hardhats-members] Docs to begin testing electronic health re cord adapted from VA system
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of David SommersSent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 6:49 PMTo: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.netSubject: [Hardhats-members] Docs to begin testing electronic health record adapted from VA system (I see Nancy's name in there...) Docs to begin testing electronic health record adapted from VA system By Joseph Conn / March 2, 2005 Related Stories Americans worry about privacy in age of healthcare IT>> Photo-enabled cell phones as a telemedicine tool>> Cutting into device costs with gain-sharing >> Kan.-based system announces $105 million IT overhaul>> Brailer gives HIMSS keynote address>> Survey: Electronic records planned for majority of organizations >> A physician in Maryland, another in New Jersey and four offices of a community health network in West Virginia will be the first test users of the newly minted Vista-Office Electronic Health Record. "I just think it's wonderful," said Njide Udochi, M.D., a solo family practitioner who opened her own office in October in Catonsville, Md., and is scheduled to have the Vista Office EHR system installed March 16. Udochi already has in her office electronic access to lab results and an electronic billing system, both of which will be interfaced to Vista-Office EHR at installation, she said. Udochi said she'd shopped for an electronic medical records system, but was discouraged by the price tags ranging "anywhere from $30,000 to $55,000 to have everything installed. That's a lot of money for someone in solo practice. Instead of borrowing, my plan was to practice for a year or two and get some income first." But then Udochi heard about the joint effort by the Veterans Health Administration and the CMS to adapt the Veterans Health Information Systems and Technology Architecture, or Vista system, to small physician offices. Vista provides clinical IT to 170 VA hospitals and 850 outpatient clinics nationwide. Udochi said she had used Vista during her fellowship in geriatrics at George Washington Hospital in Washington, D.C., in 1999 and liked it. She said she then yearned for an EHR in her subsequent years of practice at the paper-based Baltimore Healthcare for the Homeless program. A colleague introduced Udochi to Nancy Anthracite, M.D., a Maryland physician working with WorldVistA, an organization developing another version of the program, who provided Udochi with a contact in the Vista-Office EHR project. Udochi, who says her office is within walking distance of CMS headquarters, applied and was accepted as a beta tester. She said her office already was wired with one computer in one of her three exam rooms, but now she expects to use a tablet PC supplied by the project to document patient encounters. Her two clinical assistants and a part-time billing clerk are all computer savvy, she said, so, with her previous Vista experience, she expects the four hours of training on the system they'll all receive March 16 will be enough to get them going. Recent surveys of information technology usage by the Commonwealth Fund and Modern Physician show a digital divide is opening up between large-group practices and solo and small physician offices due to the high cost of buying and maintaining EHR systems. The VA/CMS Vista-Office EHR project aims to help close that gap and is part of a larger quality-improvement program at the CMS called the Physician Focused Quality Initiative. Installation of the Vista-Office EHR already is under way at four of the 20 community health centers in the West Virginia Primary Care Network, based in Huntington, according to Capt. Cynthia Wark of the Public Health Service. Wark is deputy director of the information and systems group in the Office of Clinical Standards and Quality at the CMS and is an overseer of the Vista-Office EHR project. The target date for public distribution of the software is Aug. 1. "We're right in the midst of getting these pilots up and working," Wark said. "Right now, we're at all trains running on full speed to meet our deadlines." The installation process includes an analysis of the technical infrastructure and training needs at each site, Wark said. Daou, an IT contractor based in Chevy Chase, Md., that converted Vista into the Vista-Office EHR, is working wi
RE: [Hardhats-members] RE: A parallel strategy for evolving VistA - Re: [Hardhats-member s] MDC Revival
Jim, the stovepipes are the underlying clinical (and some clinical/administrative) packages, such as Lab, Pharmacy, V-files, PCE, TIU, Bed Control, PTF, Radiology, etc. Many of these packages were developed years ago (I believe initially at different medical centers, and then at different Field Offices). I also believe that originally some of these packages had their own patient files ! All of these packages store what could be classified as results, reports, etc in what really amount to seperate databases within the M/Fileman, environment. "Stovepipes" in a sense. Navigating these files/databases to do clinically relevant queries using Fileman can be daunting at times. Think of trying to identify a simple cohort of patients who meet the following criteria: "All female patients taking Digoxin, with a potassium level less than a certain threshhold value". One must jump from patient file, to some very complicated lab files, to the prescription file. It's probably simpler to just write a custom program to do this, than to try to frame the query in Fileman. Nowadays, some of these queries can be done with CPRS. But we're talking years after it could have been available. Also I think CPRS would have difficulty with more complex queries than my example. For many years, here at Indianapolis, we used a system called RMRS. It was a clinical repository, written in M, that was loosely based on the Regenstrief Medical Record system, which was originally created at the Regenstrief Institute. At the heart of this system is a single M-based file, that stores 27 different types of clinical data in a standardized way. It is fed its data by HL7 messages, from Vista, or, any commercial package that sends the data in the proper HL7 format. The file is easily queryable on a patient by patient basis, or across the entire file, to identify cohorts of patients, as described above. The system could even be programmed to page physicians, when laboratory results on their patients were outside reference values. The system was abandoned, mainly because the lead developer left the VA, and because Vista did not contain the necessary mapping tools to map non-standard terms to standard ones in an efficient manner. Mapping them manually, was not impossible, but it was resource intensive. These same issues have resurfaced 10 years later with the HDR, but this time a properly resourced team of Data Standardization people has been assembled to revisit the issue. And so we are "back to the future" in a sense. My point is, that Vista could be much simplified, with an architecture like this, if it were redesigned with "lessons learned" taken into consideration. It could be done in M, because after all, it has already been done once in M. Finally, I will tell you that I am not the person best qualified to proselytize on this system. Nor am I sure the original developer has any further interst in the system. I am simply saying that I am a fan of the architecture. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jim Self Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 5:24 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] RE: A parallel strategy for evolving VistA - Re: [Hardhats-member s] MDC Revival Richard, You make some excellent points. Any long-lived system needs to be re-engineered periodically (continually, if possible) in order to adapt to changing technology and the changing expectations of its users. I would think that much of the re-engineering that you speak of is a necessary part of any manageable comprehensive transition to a newer platform whether it be Java or M2Web or something else. What are the 30 year old stovepipes? As I understand it, the DHCP kernel was formed only about 20 years ago. What would your standardized, easily query able format look like? What would make it easy? Richard.Sowinski wrote: >A rational "plan A" might have been to re-engineer Vista such that the >clinical packages were lighter, more like front-ends to an underlying >clinical repository, which stored all the results and data for lab tests, >procedures, prescriptions, problem lists, diagnoses, etc. in a standardized, >easily query able format. Instead of in multiple stovepipes, built 30 years >ago. > >The feeding of the CR could have been message-based, making it possible to >substitute >best of breed commercial systems for some of the less popular Vista >packages, if that's >what individual sites wanted to do. > >The new Vista, would also have been much less tightly integrated so that >you don't need the xxx package installed, in order to run Lab, or the >yyy package installed in order to run Scheduling. > >All of this could have been done in M, by re-engineering what is there. > >Don't get me wrong, Vista is a good system, that has been built by many >talented individuals, over many years, and it has served the VA well. > >But, I think it could have been so much better, had sound
[Hardhats-members] [Fwd: VistA Community Documentation Wiki (was) Greetings Hardhats -- Wiki!]
Resending as the message seems to have gotten lost in space. Joseph Original Message Subject: VistA Community Documentation Wiki (was) Greetings Hardhats -- Wiki! Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:31:05 -0500 From: Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here is some fire for the thread David: Dave Whitten (thanks David!) has been working on setting up a wiki linked to the WorldVistA sourceforge code repository. It has been up and running for a while in test mode. It is clearly a good time to enlist more hands to help with its birth. From a community perspective It would make the most sense to "integrate" the documentation with the codeso suggestions and volunteers to modify the sourceforge pages to provide "one stop shopping" will be most welcome. The worldvista.org and hardhats.org sites can then be updated with the appropriate links We can start by adding Kevin's work to improve the installation documentation.Nancy you've got some stuff that's in draft I think that could be added too. At this point anyone can create an account and there are no restrictions on editingif this proves to be too liberal we can change the permissions etc. The URLwhich will be simplified is: http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Main_Page It would be ideal if two people would volunteer to coordinate and manage the documentation wiki...and here is a challengeit would be great to have at least the current body of documentation loaded into the Wiki in time for the Boston meeting. Cheers, Joseph David Sommers wrote: The use of a Wiki has come up A LOT (a large part by Kevin and me). So... can we fire this thread up and get some action items? As I've stated before - I can offer up my services for setup and hosting but we reached a point where the group agreed that "HardHats would be the best medium". If we stay true to that statement, can we get an ETA? If not, could I be of any help? /David. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Street Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:40 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats Hello, I have been following the list over the past month or so. Things seem to be heating up over the past week and I feel I know enough about the group and its projects now to contribute. I have installed Vista on my Internet exposed Linux server and have worked through about 80% of the installation process. My background is somewhat unique in that I am a chiropractor on staff in a FQHC in a small rural city in Northern California, management is very interested in what Vista can do. I am also a Linux professional and teach all Linux System Administration courses at the local college. Not being a programmer by training I can hack myself out of a jam in most interpreted programming languages. I am still trying to figure out all the different facets and organizations of this project and how they all fit together One question I do have. Is there a wiki or collaborative documentation project for Vista? As I was working through the Installation manual I noted some inconsistencies, order and or relevance issues in some of the steps. It might be helpful to start such a resource. Mailing lists are great, but you have to keep up and reference the pearls of wisdom as you see them. --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] IFCAP Pharmacy Link???
Both Pharmacy and IFCAP are inventory systems of a sort, since they track dispersal of supplies and prescribed items (such as prosthetics, and drugs) A search of the Pharmacy routines for references to ^PR (which picks up routines and globals) yields: w ^PRC(442,0) PROCUREMENT & ACCOUNTING TRANSACTIONS^442I^99044189^342166 w ^PRC(441,0) ITEM MASTER^441Is^75801^51160 w $T(INVNAME^PRCPUX1) INVNAME(INVPT) ; inventory point name for inventory point w $T(DESCR^PRCPUX1) DESCR(INVPT,ITEMDA) ; description from inventory point or item master file w ^PRCS(410,0) CONTROL POINT ACTIVITY^410I^97727888^616684 w $T(UNITCODE^PRCPUX1) UNITCODE(UNITS) ; get 2 character unit code from file 420.5 w ^PRCP(445,0) GENERIC INVENTORY^445Is^278^277 w ^PRCP(445.2,0) INVENTORY TRANSACTION^445.2sP^6507553^1029536 w $T(NSN^PRCPUX1) NSN(ITEMDA) ; return nsn for itemda w $T(VENNAME^PRCPUX1) VENNAME(VENDA) ; return vendor name for da;global (445 or 440) w $T(UNITVAL^PRCPUX1) UNITVAL(PKGMULT,UNITS,DELIM) ; unit per issue for values passed as follows: Hope this helps: > > Trying to set-up the pharmacy module as far as i have understood, it rests > on an IFCAP base. > What is the minimal setup of IFCAP required to have the Pharmacy running > (vendors, purchase orders, receiving the drugs into the pharmacy, dispense > drugs...). > > > Regards > Anna > > > > --- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
[Hardhats-members] VistA Community Documentation Wiki (was) Greetings Hardhats -- Wiki!
Here is some fire for the thread David: Dave Whitten (thanks David!) has been working on setting up a wiki linked to the WorldVistA sourceforge code repository. It has been up and running for a while in test mode. It is clearly a good time to enlist more hands to help with its birth. From a community perspective It would make the most sense to "integrate" the documentation with the codeso suggestions and volunteers to modify the sourceforge pages to provide "one stop shopping" will be most welcome. The worldvista.org and hardhats.org sites can then be updated with the appropriate links We can start by adding Kevin's work to improve the installation documentation.Nancy you've got some stuff that's in draft I think that could be added too. At this point anyone can create an account and there are no restrictions on editingif this proves to be too liberal we can change the permissions etc. The URLwhich will be simplified is: http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Main_Page It would be ideal if two people would volunteer to coordinate and manage the documentation wiki...and here is a challengeit would be great to have at least the current body of documentation loaded into the Wiki in time for the Boston meeting. Cheers, Joseph David Sommers wrote: The use of a Wiki has come up A LOT (a large part by Kevin and me). So... can we fire this thread up and get some action items? As I've stated before - I can offer up my services for setup and hosting but we reached a point where the group agreed that "HardHats would be the best medium". If we stay true to that statement, can we get an ETA? If not, could I be of any help? /David. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Street Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:40 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats Hello, I have been following the list over the past month or so. Things seem to be heating up over the past week and I feel I know enough about the group and its projects now to contribute. I have installed Vista on my Internet exposed Linux server and have worked through about 80% of the installation process. My background is somewhat unique in that I am a chiropractor on staff in a FQHC in a small rural city in Northern California, management is very interested in what Vista can do. I am also a Linux professional and teach all Linux System Administration courses at the local college. Not being a programmer by training I can hack myself out of a jam in most interpreted programming languages. I am still trying to figure out all the different facets and organizations of this project and how they all fit together One question I do have. Is there a wiki or collaborative documentation project for Vista? As I was working through the Installation manual I noted some inconsistencies, order and or relevance issues in some of the steps. It might be helpful to start such a resource. Mailing lists are great, but you have to keep up and reference the pearls of wisdom as you see them. --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] Greetings Hardhats
I set a wiki up many months ago for that reason but . http://www.mcenter.com/hardhats/pmwiki/pmwiki.php At 02:40 AM 3/3/2005, Mark wrote: One question I do have. Is there a wiki or collaborative documentation project for Vista? As I was working through the Installation manual I noted some inconsistencies, order and or relevance issues in some of the steps. It might be helpful to start such a resource. Mailing lists are great, but you have to keep up and reference the pearls of wisdom as you see them. --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
