Re: [hlds_linux] Re: how will the Valve banlist be hack proof? [was Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules]
- Original Message - From: "Brad Gould" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Newsgroups: mirror.valve.hlds_linux Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:33 PM Subject: [hlds_linux] Re: how will the Valve banlist be hack proof? [was Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules] > Why bother "simulating" anything. Spoof source addresses of real > servers. And since its UDP I dont think theres any handshaking involved. good point brad (check out the brains on brad! :) since it's UDP even the "circle of trust" that i suggested in my original post would be useless. this kind of thing should be done via tcp with a handshake requirement. accident and i were talking about building a global ban database system late last year, and it got really complicated really fast. but the basic idea was that only TRUSTED servers would be allowed to add to the global ban list, this trust was "verified" by ip (over tcp) and a handshake to prevent spoofing, and there were some serious requirements to becoming trusted. ~j aka bp ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: how will the Valve banlist be hack proof? [was Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules]
At 10:56 7/18/2002 +1200, you wrote: >I was actually thinking this on the way home lastnight, except not so >much hacking, more faking the communication between a server and the >banlist server. > >Now sure its not going to be easy, but it would be possible to write >code that simulates a CS server using vac, and then sends the same data >back to the banlist server that is sent when a user gets caught cheating >and added to the list. Why bother "simulating" anything. Spoof source addresses of real servers. And since its UDP I dont think theres any handshaking involved. And you have the code that will encrypt the WONid locally (the server code), and you can sniff the outbound packets trivially. Why cant you spam the master list? All I can say is please think this one thru guys (But I guess they are, its "testing" at the moment). Brad -- Brad Gould, Network Engineer Agile Communications Pty Ltd 31 York St [PO Box 284, Rundle Mall], Adelaide, SA 5000 Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.agile.com.au Phone: +61-8-8232 1234 Fax: +61-8-8232 4567 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
[OT] Re: [hlds_linux] Re: how will the Valve banlist be hack proof? [was Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules]
- Original Message - From: "Jeremy Brooking" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Newsgroups: mirror.valve.hlds_linux Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:56 PM Subject: [hlds_linux] Re: how will the Valve banlist be hack proof? [was Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules] > I was actually thinking this on the way home lastnight, except not so > much hacking, more faking the communication between a server and the > banlist server. not to nitpick, but i will :) "faking the communication" is called reverse engineering the communication is very much a "hacker" activity. for example, the OGC guys found out how CD talked to the CD server and "mimicked" the protocol. CDeath had to keep changing the auth codes to keep OGC from mimicking the protocol. thankfully it's a lot easier and more effective to distribute a piece of code to server admins who use CD than to distribute code to hackers to bypass CD. which is why the OGC guys basically gave up until Valve's 1.4 release broke CD for CS clients. end of nitpick :) ~j aka bp ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: how will the Valve banlist be hack proof? [was Re:[hlds_linux] New Security Modules]
I was actually thinking this on the way home lastnight, except not so much hacking, more faking the communication between a server and the banlist server. Now sure its not going to be easy, but it would be possible to write code that simulates a CS server using vac, and then sends the same data back to the banlist server that is sent when a user gets caught cheating and added to the list. Therefore making it possible for anyone with this piece of code, to globally ban any wonid they like. Now people are going to come along and say "Thats impossible, or cheaters are not smart enough to do that" but thats exactly the type of response that turned apache-scalp into such a big issue. Its just a thought anyway. On Thu, 2002-07-18 at 08:40, Buddha-Pest wrote: > i have a MUCH bigger concern about the global valve ban list. as with any > centralized system it could (and most likely will) be hacked. imagine myg0t > "populating" the global valve ban list with the wonid's of admins and top > players (these are easily to collect from stats pages). what is valve doing > to prevent this? as with cheater software, it's very very difficult to > validate the software someone is running if they are PURPOSELY changing it. > i'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to reverse engineer whatever protocol the > server uses to report cheaters to the central database and then... > pandemonium. > > perhaps there should be some sort of "circle of trust" that valve creates, > and their database would only accept bans from servers that are in that > circle. not sure how the circle would be created but it could start very > small, like say with homeLAN and other established isps running hlds. > > or they could start running background checks and stuff :) (now there's > where AA could get REALLY scary) > > ~jules aka BP ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
