Re: [Hornlist] Franck Symphony; for Lawrence Yates

2006-05-21 Thread YATESLAWRENCE
I don't remember if the bassoon player told me what was the cause of the  
horn player's death.  As I said, this was a tale told to me - I wasn't  there 
myself and I don't know who the horn player was.
 
I have only played in one performance where one of the musician's died  
(although I have played in several where members of the audience or choir have  
gone to meet their maker, two of them during separate perfomances of the Verdi  
Requiem)
 
The night Sid died we were playing South Pacific in a theatre in  Bolton.  
About half way through the second act the trumpet player behind me  began to 
frantically tap on my shoulder - Lawrence, Lawrence, Sid's  dead.  What do 
you 
mean, Sid's dead?  He's dead - look.  
 
Sure enough, Sid, the elderly percussionist was slumped over his  timps.  We 
managed to get a message through to the front of the orchestra  (the pit was 
long and thin with only one way in an out) for someone to phone for  an 
ambulance.  We then passed Sid along the orchestra (he was still alive  at this 
point 
but not very well and hardly conscious.).  Eventually the  ambulance came and 
he died soon afterwards.
 
I was telling this story to one of my students as one of the funniest  things 
that had happened that week. (If you don't understand the English sense  of 
humour, please don't comment on this.) Anyway,  unlike most  people, she didn't 
laugh.   She let me finish my tale then unsmiling  said, Yes, I know, it was 
my grandad.
 
All the best,
 
Lawrence
 
þaes  ofereode - þisses swa maeg

_http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) 
Dulcian  Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) 






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Re: [Hornlist] Franck Symphony; for Lawrence Yates

2006-05-21 Thread YATESLAWRENCE
apologies for the apostrophe in musician's - I do know when and when not  
to use the apoostrophe - it's something that infuriates me when I see it done  
incorrectly.
 
Sorry,
 
Lawrence
 
þaes  ofereode - þisses swa maeg

_http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) 
Dulcian  Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) 






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[Hornlist] Conductors, theory,music, etc

2006-05-21 Thread Hans.Pizka
What will you do, if you have a conductor in front, who
knows everything about a certain big piece and leads the
piece following every flydropping in the score like it were
the Holy Evangelium, but has not 1/1000th percent of
charisma  taste ? Who is a fleshless, temperamentless
superbly studied very friendly  polite fellow, but cannot
recognize if a chord in a progression is false or not. If he
doesn´t even hear the wrong note ? But he is  highly traded
internationally ? Here the ear counts, but the ear combined
with the instant recognition facility to distinguish wrong
in style or still possible for that piece. It would be
better definitely, if the conductor would know the score by
heart, but this might be too much on expectation, even these
particular conductors have conducted this piece on a
multitude of occasions. Knowing by heart does not definitely
mean, that he could write it down by heart, but (as did
Karajan) it would mean, that all the acoustical sensations
would be stored in ones memory, so any deviation from that
would disturb  bring the conductor to a halt, make him look
into the score, find (extract) the wrong note  get it
played correctly by the particular musician. But if that
does not happen with the conductor, how would you estimate
this gentleman ? Ohh, he has a superb baton technique.

This is not a real but a true story  could happen
everywhere  has happen at many places. All you need is a
very good management  a rigorous lobby. You will get to the
top.   

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[Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st May 2006)

2006-05-21 Thread updates
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RE: [Hornlist] Franck Symphony; for Lawrence Yates

2006-05-21 Thread Hans.Pizka
It is done in the German language, so I have to apologize as
I adopted it mistakingly too often in my English letters.
H.Pizka

= 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 10:03 AM
To: horn@music.memphis.edu
Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Franck Symphony; for Lawrence Yates

apologies for the apostrophe in musician's - I do know
when and when not to use the apoostrophe - it's something
that infuriates me when I see it done incorrectly.
 
Sorry,
 
Lawrence
 
þaes  ofereode - þisses swa maeg

_http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/)
Dulcian  Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_
(http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) 






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de

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Re: [Hornlist] Franck Symphony; for Lawrence Yates

2006-05-21 Thread Paul Kampen
Message text written by The Horn List
Anyway,  unlike most  people, she didn't 
laugh.   She let me finish my tale then unsmiling  said, Yes, I know, it
was 
my grandad.

Dear Lawrence and List

Hmmm - this reminds me of a rehearsal years ago with a certain conductor
who has now got quite a high reputation.  Two deputy violinists - one an
old pro and one a fresh young budding superstar were sharing a desk.  The
rehearsal was going very badly and, during a pause for a 'scrub', the older
player turned to the younger and said words to the effect of (probably
stronger) this conductor is a complete idiot and I have just about had it
up to here!  The younger player retorted he is practically my brother in
law!  The rehearsal continued with the older player frantically wondering
how to dig herself out of this one.  There was another pause for a 'scrub'
at which point the younger player turned round and said but I completely
agree with you!.

Mind you, I once went offstage after a choral concert in Scunthorpe and in
to the men's bandroom where there was a babble of angry comments about this
 conductor,  beat,  tempi,  understanding of the music, 
total idiot, waste of space, take the money, get to the pub and then off
home etc., etc.  I myself did not take part in this and was the only one to
see a man taking off a tail coat in the corner and obviously about to burst
into tears.

But I must admit that, in the same hall, I once totally wrecked a horn solo
during the rehearsal of a choral concert (actually, I think that you were
on that one Lawrence - off stage horn call in 'The Canterbury Pilgrims' -
rest of horn section in fits of mirth when I returned to the stage - ring
any bells?).  I think I got it right on the night (it was over 30 years
ago) but, changing afterwards, I found myself standing next to one of the
choristers who said what was wrong with that  French Horn player this
afternoon?  I responded I don't know but he has got to go! - and with
that, I left.

Cheers

Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK)
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Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread Carlberg Jones


At 3:31 AM + 5/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You do NOT need  to hear any pitches in music theory  with the 
exception of differentiating between the intervals (a basic 
exercise).  Just spell them exactly as instructed.



Sort of like learning how to spell without learning what the words mean?

Carlberg
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MEXICO
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RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread Klaus Bjerre
--- Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You have all read Steve’s fine posting, so I won’t quote it.

It made me wonder, why I never really can remember the precise composition of 
the Napolitan chord.
So I found it on a web page, and then I knew why:

During my musicological studies, I have been quite a bit around jazz theory. 
And there the same
chord (Db in C major is not considered a subdominant, but a 
tritone-substitution for the dominant,
usually with the Db in the bass and with at least a minor seventh added.

The classical purpose of the Napolitan chord is to approach the Tonica in the 
melody line from a
semitone above via a semitone below (the leading note).

The jazz purpose is to approach the root in a chromatic way. The normal jazz 
cadenza in a
simplified version is ii7-V7-I. In C major giving the bass line D-G-C. The 
substitution version is
ii7-bII7-I giving the bass line of D-Db-C.

For me there is no split between the classical and the jazz approaches, as they 
are all about
creating a tension to be released on the Tonica.

This relates to a recent thread about Lacher, where Hans like the other posters 
excluded the
alleged horn obligato to be intended for horn. Hans suggested the 
zink/cornetto, which I
applauded. The Napolitan discussion took me back to the Lacher score, as I 
remembered a figure of
some soloist line notes with a sequence similar to that of a Napolitan cadenza. 
They were not true
Napolitan, rather sort of appogiaturas leading to the main note, which in casu 
was the third of
the subdominant.

This is all very subtle in a horn context, but it leads to the point of several 
posters including
me: horn players shall play their horn well, but they shall also be thorough 
musicians, which
includes knowledge of style and of harmony.

I only have played Mendelssohn’s violin concerto once at a reading. I was 2nd 
horn and another,
very good, but back then quite young, list member was first. Most of the way we 
played in natural
horn harmonies for horn in E, but suddenly we had to play one or more 
top-of-the-staff F’s in
unisono. Not an obvious range to meat within. But there is a clear reason 
behind the composer’s
writing. Which is that reason? Only to be told by those knowing about 
orchestral horn playing of
the period.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

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Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread Carlberg Jones


At 3:31 AM + 5/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I got in big trouble with music theory because I 'could' hear the 
chors and MISSPELLED them as many chords SOUND the same but LOOK 
different.  I did not believe this for a few years until my teacher 
sat me down and explained that I must not 'listen' to the chords; 
only spell them as outlined in the text.



It seems to me that unless you know the function of a chord its 
spelling is a moot point.


If you are asked to write down this chord, and you hear only the 
chord, any spelling is correct, I'd say.


When you wrote text at the end of the above quote, did you mean 
context? Then I think spelling would matter.


When one hears the word read, how can one know if it's spelled that 
way or red, (or reed, for that matter) without know the context 
or the word's meaning? As in music, the English language has many 
words which sound the same but are spelled differently.


Carlberg
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Guanajuato, Gto.
MEXICO
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Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread YATESLAWRENCE
 
 
In a message dated 21/05/2006 15:17:32 GMT Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

As in  music, the English language has many 
words which sound the same but are  spelled differently.


Like Viola and Cat
 
þaes  ofereode - þisses swa maeg

_http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) 
Dulcian  Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) 






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Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread Carlberg Jones

At 10:26 AM -0400 5/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Like Viola and Cat


Voilà, ya got it, mighty!
--

Carlberg Jones
Guanajuato, Gto.
MEXICO
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RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread Steve Freides
Klaus Bjerre wrote:

-snip-

 During my musicological studies, I have been quite a bit 
 around jazz theory. And there the same chord (Db in C major 
 is not considered a subdominant, but a tritone-substitution 
 for the dominant, usually with the Db in the bass and with at 
 least a minor seventh added.
 
 The classical purpose of the Napolitan chord is to approach 
 the Tonica in the melody line from a semitone above via a 
 semitone below (the leading note).
 
 The jazz purpose is to approach the root in a chromatic way. 
 The normal jazz cadenza in a simplified version is ii7-V7-I. 
 In C major giving the bass line D-G-C. The substitution 
 version is ii7-bII7-I giving the bass line of D-Db-C.
 
 For me there is no split between the classical and the jazz 
 approaches, as they are all about creating a tension to be 
 released on the Tonica.

Thanks you, Klaus.  

I will point out two differences that I are, at least to this theory
teacher, significant.

The first - in classical music, the Neapolitan chord is usually seen as a
triad in first inversion, while in jazz it's usually a 'dominant' (major
third, minor seventh) seventh chord in root position.  In the key of C, the
classical chord is spelled F-Ab-Db, while the jazz chord is spelled Db, F,
Ab, Cb.  The classical Neapolitan is more often used in music in a minor key
because it fixes what would otherwise be a diminished chord.  Ed Aldwell
and Carl Schacter give this chord, which they call the Phryigian II,
excellent treatment in the second volume of their text book, Harmony and
Voice Leading.  The Neapolitan 6/3 chord may, in fact, be followed by a
tonic chord, but that will almost always be a cadential 6/4 version of the
tonic chord, which will then be followed by the dominant chord and then the
final tonic itself.  In Aldwell/Schacter parlance, one does not even call
the tonic 6/4 chord used this way a tonic chord at all.  (To say more on
this would open Pandora's Box - suffice it to say their theory text is
excellent and explains all this very well.)

Secondly, in jazz, as you rightly observe, it's a substitute for a dominant
triad or seventh chord, while in classical music it usually functions much
like a II (supertonic), that is, a chord that goes to the dominant chord
which then goes to the tonic.  The jazz version is often refered to as a
sub-V, meaning a substitute for a V chord.  So here its function is
different, one level more removed from the tonic in classical music in terms
of how it functions.

The jazz useage is fun to play with.  If you take, e.g., a standard like
All The Things You Are (which, I understand, was recently voted best
popular song of all time by the members of some musical organization - I'm
afraid I forget the details) in its original key of Ab major, at the text,
promised kiss of near the beginning where the melody is a repeated G, you
can play either Eb dominant seven to get you to the following Ab major
chord, in which case the melody note is the third of the chord, or you can
play A (natural) dominant seventh and have the melody be the seventh of the
chord, the latter being the jazz sub-V useage.  You can even use one
followed by the other and it sounds good.

Sorry to venture off the topic of horns so much.  Horn content - if anyone
would like to sell me an Alexander 103 for very little money, I'm interested
- I had a chance to play one for the first time a few days ago and I am in
love. :)

-S-

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RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread Joshua Cheuvront
I suppose I wasn't quite clear in my earlier post.  My point was that ear 
training in many schools is insufficient in comparison to music theory.


Unfortunately, I can't speak from personal experience, but I watched some of 
my peers either breeze through or pass completely out of music theory 
courses.  In every case, they had strong listening (ear training) skills.  
Some were self taught, others had private lesson instructors who insisted on 
ear training.


Many of the things I learned in music theory didn't make sense until I 
went through my recent ear training courses.  Concepts which had at the time 
seemed complex, became very basic.


Original Message Follows
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu
To: horn@music.memphis.edu
Subject: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 03:31:55 +

Josh and Hornfolks

I got in big trouble with music theory because I 'could' hear the chors and 
MISSPELLED them as many chords SOUND the same but LOOK different.  I did not 
believe this for a few years until my teacher sat me down and explained that 
I must not 'listen' to the chords; only spell them as outlined in the text.


Only in ear training/musicianship will you be required to use your ears and 
it is only in the last year of musicianship that a 'chord' test may be given 
(the teacher (at least at SJSU) played an amalgam of notes on the piano for 
the last test and the student's job was to identify each and every note.


Don't worry about Neopolitan chords, 9th chords, 13th chords, or French 
Sixths or whatever; as long as you follow the teacher's specific 
instructions on how to spell each one, you will be just fine.


Now, a cautionary word; IF you have perfect pitch; yes you will hear each 
chord but this is where I got into trouble; because, trust me on this, many 
many chords SOUND the SAME but are SPELT differently.  You want to follow 
the teacher's instructions and (if you have perfect pitch) try to turn it 
'off' for the duration of the class and for your homework.


You do NOT need  to hear any pitches in music theory  with the exception of 
differentiating between the intervals (a basic exercise).  Just spell them 
exactly as instructed.


best

Rachel

Josh wrote:

What good does it do to teach a young music student how to correctly 
spell a Neopolitan 6 chord if they can't even hear it?



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RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others

2006-05-21 Thread Klaus Bjerre
Good explanation and more in depth than mine!

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre 

--- Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Klaus Bjerre wrote:
 
 -snip-
 
  During my musicological studies, I have been quite a bit 
  around jazz theory. And there the same chord (Db in C major 
  is not considered a subdominant, but a tritone-substitution 
  for the dominant, usually with the Db in the bass and with at 
  least a minor seventh added.
  
  The classical purpose of the Napolitan chord is to approach 
  the Tonica in the melody line from a semitone above via a 
  semitone below (the leading note).
  
  The jazz purpose is to approach the root in a chromatic way. 
  The normal jazz cadenza in a simplified version is ii7-V7-I. 
  In C major giving the bass line D-G-C. The substitution 
  version is ii7-bII7-I giving the bass line of D-Db-C.
  
  For me there is no split between the classical and the jazz 
  approaches, as they are all about creating a tension to be 
  released on the Tonica.
 
 Thanks you, Klaus.  
 
 I will point out two differences that I are, at least to this theory
 teacher, significant.
 
 The first - in classical music, the Neapolitan chord is usually seen as a
 triad in first inversion, while in jazz it's usually a 'dominant' (major
 third, minor seventh) seventh chord in root position.  In the key of C, the
 classical chord is spelled F-Ab-Db, while the jazz chord is spelled Db, F,
 Ab, Cb.  The classical Neapolitan is more often used in music in a minor key
 because it fixes what would otherwise be a diminished chord.  Ed Aldwell
 and Carl Schacter give this chord, which they call the Phryigian II,
 excellent treatment in the second volume of their text book, Harmony and
 Voice Leading.  The Neapolitan 6/3 chord may, in fact, be followed by a
 tonic chord, but that will almost always be a cadential 6/4 version of the
 tonic chord, which will then be followed by the dominant chord and then the
 final tonic itself.  In Aldwell/Schacter parlance, one does not even call
 the tonic 6/4 chord used this way a tonic chord at all.  (To say more on
 this would open Pandora's Box - suffice it to say their theory text is
 excellent and explains all this very well.)
 
 Secondly, in jazz, as you rightly observe, it's a substitute for a dominant
 triad or seventh chord, while in classical music it usually functions much
 like a II (supertonic), that is, a chord that goes to the dominant chord
 which then goes to the tonic.  The jazz version is often refered to as a
 sub-V, meaning a substitute for a V chord.  So here its function is
 different, one level more removed from the tonic in classical music in terms
 of how it functions.
 
 The jazz useage is fun to play with.  If you take, e.g., a standard like
 All The Things You Are (which, I understand, was recently voted best
 popular song of all time by the members of some musical organization - I'm
 afraid I forget the details) in its original key of Ab major, at the text,
 promised kiss of near the beginning where the melody is a repeated G, you
 can play either Eb dominant seven to get you to the following Ab major
 chord, in which case the melody note is the third of the chord, or you can
 play A (natural) dominant seventh and have the melody be the seventh of the
 chord, the latter being the jazz sub-V useage.  You can even use one
 followed by the other and it sounds good.
 
 Sorry to venture off the topic of horns so much.  Horn content - if anyone
 would like to sell me an Alexander 103 for very little money, I'm interested
 - I had a chance to play one for the first time a few days ago and I am in
 love. :)
 
 -S-
 
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[Hornlist] Rachel´s postings NHR

2006-05-21 Thread jjhornman
Hi Rachel,
 
I think you have a lot of great things to say, but is there any possibility you 
could keep it down to one posting a day or at least consolidate your postings?  
Today there were at least 6 postings that could have been skillfully 
consolidated into one posting.  Your thoughts and ideas would be a lot more 
meaning filled to me if I read one big snippet on a similar subject instead of 
six little ones.
 
Thanks,
 
Hoss Johnson 
Lost somewhere in Mexico (Literally)
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Re: [Hornlist] Alexander triple

2006-05-21 Thread Wilbert Kimple


Nelson,

I currently play an Alex 309 triple.  It's like the
107 descant I had before, but with a compensating
low F side added on.  This horn does everything!!! 
Am currently using a Pizka mouthpiece on it, which
has really opened up the bottom, but has also make
the area above the staff rock solid.  More volume,
too.

For additional info, mail to: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Wilbert in SC
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[Hornlist] Shameless advertising (new)

2006-05-21 Thread Hans.Pizka
Two of my nice double horns are ready for shipment. Both
silver  gold plated as usual. If you are interested
seriously, write me off the list please.

There is a possibility also, to make two Viennese
Pumpenhorns with the valve pistons made of titanium (means
ever lasting), special light  fast action. Would take
between two  three months for delivery. I have three
machines ready (1 titanium, two brass, plus 6 others,
nearly ready, including the other titanium set). Please
inquire.

Pictures at www.pizka.de/PizWrHorns.htm  
www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm

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