[Hornlist] RE: pitch, temperament and intonation
Joeg Horn G ...I think the insensitivity of the modern western ear to 'just' or 'pure' intonation has everything to do with the dominance of modern fixed pitch instruments (including fretted stringed instruments) and nothing to do with a lack of tonality or excess of dissonance. Furthermore, the timbre of these instruments seems to hide or make these imperfections of tuning less evident. Try listening to a brass quintet playing a Bach chorale using equal temperament. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. Listen to the same chorale on a keyboard instrument, not so bad. * Listen, Joey, there is absolutely no reason why chalkboards should be played out of tune, particularly since (the last time I looked) most of them are fretless. Sure, these modern digital chalkboards sound terrible, but that results from misguided sampling techniques. An authentic, analogue chalkboard can be a thing of beauty, in the hands of a professional. Listen to a recording of Gurre-lieder sometime, and you'll know what I mean. Gotta go, Cabbage ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Question on playing melodies in a tonality
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When one plays a melody, does he hear it tonally, i.e. thirds sixths are played where they are suppose to be harmonically, or is it played piano tempered since that's what we've heard a lot. _PRACTICALLY speaking, what do we hear? What about say major scales and arpeggios, lowered third? I asked one competent player which he played, he said I don't know I just play them. He's right. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Question on playing melodies in a tonality
We professional players just read the melodies play them, BUT adjust the dynamic sometimes the intonation level according to the other players in the group. Group means section, or ensemble or accompaniment or partner. We have to develop a certain ability: instantly detecting the irregularities in a scale e.g. or a chord or arpeggio, instantly recognizing a tonality (important for arpeggios) - otherwise no chance to play prima vista, otherwise no chance to play things without a rehearsal or without often practising it, even if it is within the momentanean repertory. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:57 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Question on playing melodies in a tonality From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When one plays a melody, does he hear it tonally, i.e. thirds sixths are played where they are suppose to be harmonically, or is it played piano tempered since that's what we've heard a lot. _PRACTICALLY speaking, what do we hear? What about say major scales and arpeggios, lowered third? I asked one competent player which he played, he said I don't know I just play them. He's right. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Any Latvian experts out there?
I stumbled across the following CD listed in a catalog: http://www.balticshop.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?item=1178cat=507title=Search_Result and am wondering just what we have here. I can see that the Freischuetz Hunters chorus and Mendelssohn Hunter's farewell are on the disc (Medniek apparently is hunter in Latvian) and most of the standard German hunting songs seem to be represented but I can't tell if there is any actual horn content, the cover art notwithstanding. What this all has to do with the Latvian railroad's 80th anniversary is a further mystery. There really is nothing in the page that I can see that identifies performer(s) other than Janis Sprogis (diacritics stripped) who seems to be some sort of Lithuanian Mantovani. Has anyone seen an actual copy? Hoping against hope, Peter Hirsch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Correction on Sprogis (Latvian sthread)
Further looking on the subject of my last post reveals that Sprogis is not the arranger, conductor (at least I assume not) but the tenor soloist on this and other CDs. Just to set the record straight, Peter Hirsch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Cimbasso - a new instrument I learned of today
Just a note of trivia - on the album Sacred Brass by the Canadian Brass Chuck Dallaenbach plays a cimbasso instead of the tuba. Interesting how it subtly changes the spectrum of sound, especially when combined with the voices. Paxmaha - Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning
While I basically agree with you, I will play Devil's Advocate (as if we didn't have enough lawyers). The human being is the animal that can get used to anything. As a result, many people find even temperament right and just temperament wrong. So these people's bodies accept only even tempered tuning, probably at the expense of higher stress levels. I once quit a high level community chorus partly because the director insisted on even tempered thirds. I didn't care for the stress. She, by the way, had perfect pitch, which defined for her where the pitch of a given note should be, regardless of the key. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Physically, we don't really have a choice about intonation. Our ears create overtones based on whole number multiples of whatever frequency is being sounded. We can't escape that. This was understood as far back as the ancient Greeks. That's why an in-tune interval is so satisfying. Our bodies are not constructed to be able to accept tempered tuning! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Hoyer 802
Hello Horn World, Im in the process of helping a student find a new horn. Could anyone provide feedback about the Hoyer 802? Thanks a bunch. Alex Camphouse ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Any Latvian experts out there?
Peter Hirsch stumbled across http://www.balticshop.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?item=1178cat=507title=Search_Result and asks if there is any actual horn content. A Latvian friend translated the listing (noting the absence of #7 and #16). Her rendering of #6 was something like I am a friend of the forest animals - horn tune. Since that is the only band identified as a horn tune, one may infer that none of the others are - but neither of us has actually seen or heard the CD. If you want any of the othe translations, let me know. Ralph ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: tuning
Steve wrote: Physically, we don't really have a choice about intonation. Our ears create overtones based on whole number multiples of whatever frequency is being sounded. We can't escape that. This was understood as far back as the ancient Greeks. That's why an in-tune interval is so satisfying. Our bodies are not constructed to be able to accept tempered tuning! This may be true, but I can't help wondering about the charm of rag time music played on an old out of tune piano. When I was a college student, my piano playing friends loved to visit my parents' home to play jazz rag time on our huge old upright piano that hadn't been tuned in more than two decades. I hated that piano because I coudn't play Chopin on it, but they loved it for it's sound feel! So ... what's with that? Valerie, Balanced Embouchure student ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Question on playing melodies in a tonality
On May 22, 2007, at 10:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message: 6 date: Mon, 21 May 2007 22:24:46 EDT from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Question on playing melodies in a tonality When one plays a melody, does he hear it tonally, i.e. thirds sixths are played where they are suppose to be harmonically, or is it played piano tempered since that's what we've heard a lot. _PRACTICALLY speaking, what do we hear? What about say major scales and arpeggios, lowered third? I asked one competent player which he played, he said I don't know I just play them. Hi, This reminds me of a story about Charles Kavalosky, the former principal of the Boston Symphony, who was also a physics professor before he decided to go for a big time horn career. When he got to Boston, he questioned a lot of the players about their intonation theories and practice and found that most of them had little or no knowledge of types of intonation. Specifically, except for some string players, they did not consciously move thirds or sixths with any intent, among other things (like paying attention to chord changes under held notes). He was rather amazed at that, so I don't think we should be too surprised at the discussion at hand. I think that the fact that this was the Boston Symphony, a great orchestra, shows that people do what they need to do to be good, whether they understand it or not. It's hard to say, in general terms, what we do about melodies and harmonies from a just point of view, except to say that the subjective intervals (non perfect intervals) had to evolve from somewhere, and considering the lack of physics experts and machines to calculate cycles per second at the time, i would have to guess that more natural means were used to calculate intervals, like ears, harps and things (plus a few mathematical formulas, I'm sure). A major third, even in a song without accompaniment, would need to fulfill the mood of the song, as would a minor one- especially a minor one. Great masters of singing and other musical instruments probably set the tone. As more people played together and notation came to pass, there had to be conventions established over time. The measuring and establishing of exact values for those intervals came later- much later. I agree with others that we, as human beings, have musical wiring built in and things like subjective intervals such as major and minor thirds evolved from what was pleasing or right for the mood of the song, or scale, at hand. I'm also sure that there was more to it than that as the Greeks and their counterparts in other cultures were, as we would say, pretty sharp cats. But since most of our western music evolved from song and singing, telling stories, dancing and religious applications, I think it is safe to say that the piano tuning came later. So the short answer to your question of how we hear melodies is yes, we do hear them tonally, if you must attach a name to it. I don't think any amount of aural influence can change our inside wiring completely (although i am sure it has some effect). We, as brass players, for example, tend to hear the notes on our instruments where they come out rather than where they should be, at times. We depend on the fingerings and the instrument to make life easy for us. Many players play first and second valve combinations sharp so often that they start to sound in tune to them. So the ear can be influenced in everyday life. As has been stated, a tempered scale is NOT natural to us. What is natural in musical tonality may vary from culture to culture, but the ability to reproduce pitches is definitely a given- our languages depend on it. A child can mimic a song in a second. How do THEY hear it? It has to sound right. A tempered scale is a mathematical construct, NOT a natural part of our being. Our real world success, i think, comes from a combination of study of the theory and practice of intonation- from the hearing and singing of intervals on up- mixed with a very healthy dose of musical experience and the trust in ourselves that we do know what to do if we learn our craft and pay attention. Compromises and adjustments are made. Just like life itself. All bets are off if you are tone deaf- except playing the piano. : ) Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, Real World Horn Playing, the Summer Seminar and Internet Horn Lessons go to my website: http:// www.wendellworld.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Atonal Woes
date: Sat, 19 May 2007 23:54:31 -0700 (PDT) from: matthew scheffelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Common Intonation woes, Atonal..Overtone series. I seriously agree. The kids are not being taught what they need to know for later on. They are being tossed crappy instruments that even their teacher cannot play sometimes, music that is boring (as you said, Matt), and told to 'just do it'. And a lot of them do this in high school because they can get out of P.E. if in Marching Band, no lie. In ensemble, the conductor of a high school band is probably so busy getting his patterns for the next half time show done that he cannot really concentrate on something as small as tuning a horn section. Most of the time in one orchestra I play in, we horns are ignored until there is (gasp!) a horn SOLO!. My favorite tactic to get our conductor's attention these days is to deliberately let a horn solo go by, tasty or not tasty. I would say horrible listening skills lack of attention to pitch Now, so many horn teachers never stress this to their students. I certainly was not *ever* given such instruction in my student days. I was never told how to blend with a clarinet or how to blow down a trumpet sectionor how to play in a string ensemble. These things I learned in chamber music workshops and in basic orchestra experience over the years. You should be creating a palate of sound on the horn that compliments the other instruments you are playing with. ack TUNERs Here we go again. My first objection to tuners is the dang things are never calibrated the same way However: Last week I was in a rehearsal (but not in Redwood Symphony) and noticed the principal flautist, tuner in hand, address the principal oboist (tuner also in hand) saying this: Use my A. The oboist followed her direction and then presented this A to the orchestra. To my ears, it was sharp. But far be it from me to tell hi falutin oboist how to make a tuning A. Following this, the orchestra tuned thusly: brass: flat or didn't bother ww: all *over* the place strings: *brilliantly* sharpish The point is: if I see an unattended tuner, I will hopefully be able to hide it for the duration of rehearsal. Then, if the person gives up on looking for it, I will quietly put it under the rear wheels of my car and back over it several times. You tuner-mongers have been warned. Just because the needle is straight up doesn't mean YOU are straight up! There are perhaps up to 100 folks in your band and your little needle is hearing just you, not them. Using your fine ears and listening to everyone, like Matt wisely puts it, will do you a great service; because believe it or not, it is hard on one's endurance to play out of tune too long on horn. If anyone wants to know why I say this, just ask ON LIST please :} Too often I see and hear someone working with a tuner, saying, well, I am in tune and try to reproduce the same spot for the problem note. That is a great example of lack of musicianship. thank you Matt. These things apparently need to be said over and over again because folks with tuners just aren't getting the point. Ardee Harvey ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] culture or innate?
I once had a discussion like this with my brother who was involved in sacred opera (rare, I know). The opera was atonal and my brother felt that it sounded evil, not sacred as the opera claimed. He had trouble with the quality of the libretto too, but that's another story. While he isn't so small minded to end the discussion on a first impression like that, it poses an interesting question. Is how a person reacts to music based solely on culture (learned), or is it innate? I suppose this goes back to the whole nature vs. nurture arguement, but I'm interested in the list's opinion. My brother ended up having to quit the opera because of some bad directorial calls and he didn't want to be associated with an opera he felt would fail miserably. He told the director as much when he left. On opening night, people left before intermission. My brother had a much better time playing Gianni Schichi (Puccini). Personally, I wasn't raised in a musical family and never knew what temperment was until college. However, when I heard perfect intervals for the first time my body experienced and instant relaxation. Just the experience of a first generation musician, I don't know if it's worth much. Heather Barson ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
