Re: [Hornlist] Lip size
Clayton Whetmore, here: Ben Kiel wrote: Dang, this discussion the past few days has been really depressing. snip it seems that if you aren't the perfect mold for horn playing, or have really big lips even, you will probably be relegated to second rate orchestras for the rest of your life, no matter how hard you try. snip P.S. I suppose if the whole thing doesn't work out in my favor, I could just start a successful business, If one is really honest and objective about the money most musicians make, one has to realize that the majority are not wealthy. There is nothing wrong with assuring yourself that you have the ability to support yourself, whether or not you are fortunate enough to become a world renowned artist. Now that you are in college, you are wise to not simply get by. Pay attention, learn as much as possible, not just to pass the tests, but to know the material for life. Plan to use what you learn in your Public Relations/Marketing Communications and English, as well as the Business Management minor. With such career training, you will be free to enjoy your music, wherever it takes you. You will be freed from the worries of where your next gig will be, or if you can maintain tenure, or if your orchestra is going to make it through the next season. Continue soaking up as much as you can from your music instructors. Practice faithfully, applying what you learn. Listen, often, to good musicians, both recorded, as well as live performances. Some day, if Hans Pizka hears you playing, and cannot see your lip size, even he may enjoy listening! Above all else, remember, performing music is not reserved for just a few elite professionals. You can take yourself as far as you wish, if you are willing to invest the time and the energy. You can be a blessing to yourself, and others. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
I'm sure there are lots of horn students out there less than perfect that do just fine. Remember that the human body is addaptive to it's environment and will adjust to any situations it comes across. To be a good teacher one must encourage and drive one's student. If you do not do this one has let one slip through the cracks and one is a bad teacher! All of my teachers have had the same dedication I have therefor I AM GOING TO MAKE IT as a professional hornist. Hoss ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Lip Size
We will see that. You should know, I have been in many juries (auditions competitions) noticed this kind of things. Making music is more than just working hard, is more than just get the right teaching. The body is adaptive, but only to a certain extent. All other things, see my long letter I just sent to the list. Those candidates going to the profession, should think many times if they do it easy, if things (playing) go easy. If everything is just hard work, forget it. The world is full of such self esteemed artists has become colorless been reduced to a mere execution of pieces, more or less exact, but WITHOUT ANY EXPRESSION OR MUSIC at all. And the horn tone, one of the most beautiful voices ever, has become a mere TONE itself, undistinguished boring. Result: MONOTONY. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 5:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size I'm sure there are lots of horn students out there less than perfect that do just fine. Remember that the human body is addaptive to it's environment and will adjust to any situations it comes across. To be a good teacher one must encourage and drive one's student. If you do not do this one has let one slip through the cracks and one is a bad teacher! All of my teachers have had the same dedication I have therefor I AM GOING TO MAKE IT as a professional hornist. Hoss ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Lip size
Dang, this discussion the past few days has been really depressing. Here I was, taught incorrectly for 6 years, having braces three times, and having really big lips, I got a new teacher this summer for lessons, and I decided to try and turn myself around. I completely started over, new embrochure, tounging and everything. I practiced my butt off, got 1st chair in the school band and orchestra, have my first solo and chamber performances in the next few months, and began to harbor secret ambitions of being a professional horn player. Even though my majors are Public Relations/Marketing Communications and English with a minor in Business Management, my true goal is music. Then this discussion starts, and it seems that if you aren't the perfect mold for horn playing, or have really big lips even, you will probably be relegated to second rate orchestras for the rest of your life, no matter how hard you try. I'd like to think that there is hope, and that I will someday get to play with top rate musicians doing major pieces of music. I love playing more that anything, I'd just like to think I have a chance to move up in the world. Ben P.S. I suppose if the whole thing doesn't work out in my favor, I could just start a successful business, and use the money I make from that to buy myself an orchestra, and appoint myself principal. :-P __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
In a message dated 10/17/2003 9:20:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All of my teachers have had the same dedication I have therefor I AM GOING TO MAKE IT as a professional hornist. Hoss I'm glad to see your outstanding effort to temper your more inflammatory comments. There's more than one way to end up with bent teeth and a fat lip. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Lip Size
Exactly, exactly, that´s what I tried to express in my previous letter. A responsible teacher does not stick on a great number of students, but sticks with the (even fewer) students to guide them in a very responsible way, so they might really enjoy playing a certain instrument not continue to carry a severe burden of obstacles. Physical over- or undersize might also result in such obstacles. I said MIGHT RESULT in such obstacles creating frustration stress easily. This should be avoided by a responsible guidance, even by recommending the switch to another better suited instrument. And one has to distinguish between love to an instrument a certain mania for an instrument, often created by relatives or the social environment - special in the beginner phase of the first two or three years. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Kosta Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Lip Size I enjoyed reading Hans Pizka's recent post about 'Lip Size' (and other physical attributes associated with horn playing) - Hans' views were very calm and reasoned, and learned thru a lifetime of professional experience. Of course there is the occasional 'exception' (horn player) who does very well regardless of having less than optimal physical characteristics - but there are many more who have tried and failed to reach the pro level. Regarding the '5 Tips' from the SBO web site - it is important to remember that the goal is to have the students learn an instrument that is suited to them given some very general (but true) guidelines. A teacher WANTS the student to do well, so the teacher is inclined to help the student find an instrument that will allow success. If a student has a strong desire to play a certain instrument, then I hope the teacher would allow it. But, if after a reasonable period, a student is obviously not suited to a particular instrument, the teacher should help (not force) the student to try something else. Jay Kosta Endwell NY USA amateur player ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
In a message dated 10/16/2003 2:26:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Exactly, exactly, that´s what I tried to express in my previous letter. A responsible teacher does not stick on a great number of students, but sticks with the (even fewer) students to guide them in a very responsible way, so they might really enjoy playing a certain instrument not continue to carry a severe burden of obstacles. Absolutely true, and the point of the whole thread, I think. The teacher has the responsibility to evaluate each student as to whether their instrument choice is correct, and not just by virtue of one criterion to the exclusion of all others. So many factors come into play as to whether a developing musician achieves excellence at the highest levels, that it is often unreasonable to deter beginning students unless there is a good reason. Lip size is not one of them, in my opinion. Many people with the correct lip size don't make it to the ranks of professional musicians. There are just so many other important factors. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
In a message dated 10/15/2003 7:42:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 10/15/2003 9:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who writes this stuff with such seeming authority when they are totally wrong? Well, at least on this list, we know the sources who are furthering this totally irresponsible position. The original post came from a young student who was alarmed and frightened that the thick lip myth may apply to him. I joined in condemning the original misguided authority, but now I hear people, who consider themselves top pros and world class teachers, not only supporting the original ignorant assumption, but expanding on it! ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
I agree with most of the comments in this thread, including those of Hans Pizka, Dave Weiner, and G. Napuda when he says A given is that crooked teeth such will impact all brass players in some negative fashion. Unfortunately, many youngsters, at least in this country, are steered to the horn (or allowed to start playing the horn) by school music teachers who not only are not horn players but may not even be all that familiar with brass instruments. When such a student finally gets to a real horn teacher, the teacher is faced with the dilemma of what to do with the student who has uncorrectable physical problems. Many teachers, I'm afraid, decide not to rock the boat and allow such students to continue as best they can. I remember all too clearly the several horn students who came to the Eastman School to study with the famous (or to some, infamous) Arcady Yegudkin, only to have him refuse to teach them because of insoluble embouchure problems. Not only were these instances, by then, personal tragedies, but The General got into a lot of hot water with the administration because of angry complaints and lost tuition. (Of course, now there are so many applicants to the Eastman School that it is easier to disguise the reason for rejection, but it is still a personal tragedy for an otherwise talented applicant to be rejected because of physical deficiencies.) The problem then is how can the horn profession help to educate primary school music teachers and conductors so that these unfortunate instances don't occur. I note that the article by the distinguished music educator that started this thread didn't even mention such problems other than lip size. Charles Valenza ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Lip Size
As you said, it is a financial problem (fort he schools). The more students, even helpless cases, the more tuition will come in. That is the wrong way, absolutely. Musical talent, if it exists with these students at all, is NOT enough. Hard work is not enough. The physical conditions must be in order also. All these factors together are necessary for ANY STUDY, for any instrument, for any sports, - except conductor. If one of these condition is not fulfilled at a reasonable degree, frustration will exceed satisfaction by a multiplicating factor. If the student is just interested to prepare himself for the band in a section position or for a sectional player as amateur, why not. Let him or her continue. But hands off the profession, please. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Valenza Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 9:39 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size I agree with most of the comments in this thread, including those of Hans Pizka, Dave Weiner, and G. Napuda when he says A given is that crooked teeth such will impact all brass players in some negative fashion. Unfortunately, many youngsters, at least in this country, are steered to the horn (or allowed to start playing the horn) by school music teachers who not only are not horn players but may not even be all that familiar with brass instruments. When such a student finally gets to a real horn teacher, the teacher is faced with the dilemma of what to do with the student who has uncorrectable physical problems. Many teachers, I'm afraid, decide not to rock the boat and allow such students to continue as best they can. I remember all too clearly the several horn students who came to the Eastman School to study with the famous (or to some, infamous) Arcady Yegudkin, only to have him refuse to teach them because of insoluble embouchure problems. Not only were these instances, by then, personal tragedies, but The General got into a lot of hot water with the administration because of angry complaints and lost tuition. (Of course, now there are so many applicants to the Eastman School that it is easier to disguise the reason for rejection, but it is still a personal tragedy for an otherwise talented applicant to be rejected because of physical deficiencies.) The problem then is how can the horn profession help to educate primary school music teachers and conductors so that these unfortunate instances don't occur. I note that the article by the distinguished music educator that started this thread didn't even mention such problems other than lip size. Charles Valenza ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
In a message dated 10/13/2003 9:45:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. Recruit for success. Also take into account physical factors that can ultimately lead to either success or frustration. Are the persons lips small enough to deal with the relatively small opening and rim width of the French horn mouthpiece? Is the boy or girl tall enough to manage a single horn, or should he or she play cornet or trumpet for a year or two before switching to the French For the last time, can we puh-lease put this old wive's tale to rest? Large, fleshy lips do not exclude you from playing horn or trumpet or any other small cup mouthpiece instrument. This is a total and utter myth. Physical size sometimes does matter, but by the time a person is grown to maturity it is rarely an issue. Who writes this stuff with such seeming authority when they are totally wrong? Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited, Inc. Baltimore, MD ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
OK, how about a discussion of teeth and mouth configuration as a deterrent to succesful horn playing, e.g. overbite, underbite, crooked teeth, etc. Charles Valenza - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size For the last time, can we puh-lease put this old wive's tale to rest? Large, fleshy lips do not exclude you from playing horn or trumpet or any other small cup mouthpiece instrument. This is a total and utter myth. Physical size sometimes does matter, but by the time a person is grown to maturity it is rarely an issue. Who writes this stuff with such seeming authority when they are totally wrong? Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited, Inc. Baltimore, MD ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno%40rochester.rr.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
A couple years back, the President's Own sent a brass quintet on tour and they played at my university. Their horn player had immense lips, and a mouthpiece to match, but played exceedingly well in all registered. Chris --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/13/2003 9:45:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. Recruit for success. Also take into account physical factors that can ultimately lead to either success or frustration. Are the person’s lips small enough to deal with the relatively small opening and rim width of the French horn mouthpiece? Is the boy or girl tall enough to manage a single horn, or should he or she play cornet or trumpet for a year or two before switching to the French For the last time, can we puh-lease put this old wive's tale to rest? Large, fleshy lips do not exclude you from playing horn or trumpet or any other small cup mouthpiece instrument. This is a total and utter myth. Physical size sometimes does matter, but by the time a person is grown to maturity it is rarely an issue. Who writes this stuff with such seeming authority when they are totally wrong? Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited, Inc. Baltimore, MD ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Lip Size
Dave, you are right in general, but when it comes to the professional question, lip size, overbite, crooked teeth matter a lot, as these factors diminish ideal physical conditions to be a brass player. Crooked teeth can be corrected. Overbite or worse underbite cannot be corrected nor can too thick lips be corrected. Why sticking with the horn then if these kind of lips would fit better for another brass instrument ? Why go the crazy hard way which will result in traumatic diseases often ? Why do the things with handicap if you could become a champion with another instrument ? Why one wants to live with a daily heavy workload just to prepare for the real task (two hours embouchure work, life long, BEFORE the rehearsal or performance ? Will this be the right condition for real artistic work ??? I really doubt that. Is this a satisfying life, if the un gifted has to hammer-in all phrases, because he or she has absolutely no musical feeling but wants to be a good player. Look for tasks, where you find you at ease. Then you will have GREAT FUN WORKING HARD, as the result will please you AND the listeners, as it comes naturally not just LEARNED or HAMMERED-IN. The same is with too thick lips. You can get a reasonable up to medium good embouchure, but for WHAT a PRICE. MASOCHISTS might like that way. That´s like with the completely anti-musical kids, who shake their body with the music, but completely out of rhythm, - but Pa, Ma Grandma wonder how musical the kid were. And the malaise started then .. Or the conductor, who drinks several glasses champagne plus some strong espresso before the concert, and trashes his arms around hysterically during the symphony (Mr.Bean does it much better) - the audience goes crazy thinking he makes great music, but all be real shit. Dear folks, you are missing the real comparison for musicality, gift, tone culture, culture per se. Everything would be fine, with conductors, gifted ungifted players, thick or thin lips, IF THE SAME PERSONS WOULD NOT COMPLAIN (because of their difficulties, problems). But their complain is a bit MODIFIED directed at equipment instead against THEMSELVES. PS: minus 3 degrees Celsius tonight in Munich (Oct.15th) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Valenza Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 3:55 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size OK, how about a discussion of teeth and mouth configuration as a deterrent to succesful horn playing, e.g. overbite, underbite, crooked teeth, etc. Charles Valenza - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size For the last time, can we puh-lease put this old wive's tale to rest? Large, fleshy lips do not exclude you from playing horn or trumpet or any other small cup mouthpiece instrument. This is a total and utter myth. Physical size sometimes does matter, but by the time a person is grown to maturity it is rarely an issue. Who writes this stuff with such seeming authority when they are totally wrong? Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited, Inc. Baltimore, MD ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno%40rochester.rr.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Lip Size
I enjoyed reading Hans Pizka's recent post about 'Lip Size' (and other physical attributes associated with horn playing) - Hans' views were very calm and reasoned, and learned thru a lifetime of professional experience. Of course there is the occasional 'exception' (horn player) who does very well regardless of having less than optimal physical characteristics - but there are many more who have tried and failed to reach the pro level. Regarding the '5 Tips' from the SBO web site - it is important to remember that the goal is to have the students learn an instrument that is suited to them given some very general (but true) guidelines. A teacher WANTS the student to do well, so the teacher is inclined to help the student find an instrument that will allow success. If a student has a strong desire to play a certain instrument, then I hope the teacher would allow it. But, if after a reasonable period, a student is obviously not suited to a particular instrument, the teacher should help (not force) the student to try something else. Jay Kosta Endwell NY USA amateur player ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lip Size
You know, it has been my experience that a thick skull usually ends up being the deciding factor as to whether or not someone is suited for playing Horn. Its also good to have a thick skin for those off days. Josh ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Lip Size
Hello all, I read the article that Mr. David Goldberg suggeted, and one of the things it said about recruiting horns (for succesful players or playing) was looking at the physical factors of the players. I will paste what it said: 1. Recruit for success. Also take into account physical factors that can ultimately lead to either success or frustration. Are the persons lips small enough to deal with the relatively small opening and rim width of the French horn mouthpiece? Is the boy or girl tall enough to manage a single horn, or should he or she play cornet or trumpet for a year or two before switching to the French I have some full sized lips, but not humongous. They aren't nice and thin or small. I started horn in October 2001 (in the middle of 7th grade) and im a Freshman now. I have made 3rd chair All-Region in 8th grade (top band) and I play in the South Texas Youth Symphony , this is my second season, I made it in 8th grade. Most of the kids in it are Highschool and the 1st horn is an all stater (im 2nd horn, last season i was 4th moved up to 3rd). i do notice a couple of things about my playing... Once I go down to pedal C...I cant give it a healthy mezzo-forte unles I shift my head and my bottom lip is completey out of the Mouthpiece, then I can go with a good forte to fortissimo all the way down to a pedal F (it dies away at pedal F to Pedal D.) If I dont shift my head and bottom lip out, I can only manage a weak pedal C maybe down to an Ab which is barely able to speak. My accuracy isn't the best (i cant hear pitches in my head well) and a cracked quite a bit of notes last season (especially playing the 3rd horn part for the opening of Nutcracker Suite). I cant sight read that well also. Does the low note thing have to do with my fuller lips? If I dont shift when i hit pedal C, it feels like there is no grip ,as i would call it, to the note. When I shift there is more of a grip to the notes. It also feels like when i hit pedal C, (without shifting) my lips vibrate outside the mouthpiece and air escapes because the opening or lips doesnt seem to fit... Also does the accuracy have to do with my lip size? And lastly...i've heard alot on the list (and by my lesson teacher), that if you work on the low range, you will eventually build up the strength to abtian the notes. Can I accomplish this to, is it merely a lack of strength or is it a physical obstical/ limit (lip size)? I would greatly appreciate loads of information from people and from there personal experiences. Tryin' to work on it, Michael Kolaghassi ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
