Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns

[bakercor]

Mathew,
I play an Englebert Schmid and really like it--I've had it for 10 years now.? 
Are you studying with a teacher in Germany?? Maybe you should wait to buy until 
you're there and see what your teacher suggests--also, see if your friends will 
let you try their horns to find a good fit.
Sherry Baker


-Original Message-
From: Mathew James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: horn list 
Sent: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 2:54 pm
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns



Sorry i forgot to mention Paxman.
Long story short I'm planning on re-locating to Germany to pursue horn
there.

On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Mathew James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey list,
> I'm currently in the market for a new horn. Here is what I am considering
> so far.
> Schmidt
> Ricco Kuhn
> Any advice between these horns?
>
> --
> Mathew James
>



-- 
Mathew James
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns

[Adrian Hitchborn]

Hi Mathew

I live and play in Germany and can tell you that about 90% of all  
horn players here use an Alexander 103.
The rest? Well, other types of Alex. (503,1103,107), Engelbert Schmid  
and less commonly Paxman,Yamaha or Otto.
Not too many on American made instruments -  check out : http:// 
www.hornplayer.net/sections.asp?country=Germany


Sorry about posting twice - it´s been a long day!

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[Hornlist] Re: Horns

[Mathew James]

Sorry i forgot to mention Paxman.
Long story short I'm planning on re-locating to Germany to pursue horn
there.

On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Mathew James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey list,
> I'm currently in the market for a new horn. Here is what I am considering
> so far.
> Schmidt
> Ricco Kuhn
> Any advice between these horns?
>
> --
> Mathew James
>



-- 
Mathew James
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[Hornlist] RE: Horns, dynamics, Conns, Alexanders, etc.

[MUMFORDHornworks]

I have a friend whose theory is that when the conductor extends "the left 
hand of fellowship".  It's probably not so much a matter of being too loud, but 
more of a tone quality thing.  All edge and harshness, and you'll probably get 
the hand, round full and heroic, you just get a smile.
You can often play a little softer and yet be heard better.  Consider that 
if you make a unique sound within the orchestra texture, you'll be heard (I 
mean unique in a good way!).  If you sound like a trumpet, you'll be masked by 
the trumpets, like a trombone, the trombones will drown you out.  Sound 
uniquely like a horn, you'll be heard without having to force.  
The loud stuff's easy anyway, let's talk about playing slow exposed 
pianissimo whole notes!

- Steve Mumford
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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns on planes

[Joe Scarpelli]

I started boycotting Delta long before I started taking my horn with me on
business trips.

Regards,
Joe 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Wendell L Exline
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 2:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; horn@music.memphis.edu
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns on planes

The AFof M is requesting that members boycott Delta Airlines as they have
been the  least cooperative in the instrument carryon problem.

Pete Exline
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns on planes

[Wendell L Exline]

The AFof M is requesting that members boycott Delta Airlines as they have
been the  least cooperative in the instrument carryon problem.

Pete Exline
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns Facing FORWARD????

[Fred]

Wasn't this a thread from about 4 weeks ago?  It was ridiculous then, doubly 
so a second time...


Maybe the sax player was offended by your sound, hence the offer of 
lessons...I'd be willing to bet that sax players have no more appreciation 
of horns than vice-versa...


Fred

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 3:14 PM
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns Facing FORWARD


1) He must have been a mellophone player in an earlier life.  I have an 
absolute aversion to mellos (well apologies to the mello fans on this list 
but I must be honest). Why in the world would anyone want to feel like 
they were playing the valves upside down?  Is this guy dyslexic?


2)  I have actually been offered LESSONS by a SAX player who canNOT play 
horn to save his own life.  Yes, he is a fine sax player, but HORN?  I 
have personally asked him to put the thing down as his sound offends 
me..


go figuresome people are seriously in need of therapy.

Rachel

> The conductor said that the bell should be facing forward, and it 
>  >>should feel like we're playing the valves upside down.

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[Hornlist] Re: Horns Facing FORWARD????

[Carlberg Jones]

At 10:14 PM + 5/13/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I have an absolute aversion to mellos


Time to be mellow!


2)  I have actually been offered LESSONS


My fortune; I've never been offered lessons.

Now it's time to put in a lot of practice on my 
French horn. Müller Book 2 XII right now.


Carlberg
--

Carlberg Jones
Guanajuato, Gto.
MEXICO
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If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend.
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns Facing FORWARD????

[harveycor]

1) He must have been a mellophone player in an earlier life.  I have an 
absolute aversion to mellos (well apologies to the mello fans on this list but 
I must be honest). Why in the world would anyone want to feel like they were 
playing the valves upside down?  Is this guy dyslexic?

2)  I have actually been offered LESSONS by a SAX player who canNOT play horn 
to save his own life.  Yes, he is a fine sax player, but HORN?  I have 
personally asked him to put the thing down as his sound offends me..

go figuresome people are seriously in need of therapy.

Rachel

> > The conductor said that the bell should be facing forward, and it >>should 
> > feel like we're playing the valves upside down.
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns on Ebay; Lack of true student sized horns.

[John Kowalchuk]

At 04:12 PM 3/18/06 -0800, matthew scheffelman wrote:
>
>There seems to not be any major USA manufactures
>building an appropriate size student horn( ie. smaller
>wrap, smaller bell).

To the best of my knowledge, Holton still makes two, a single F and a
single Bb the size of an old mellophone.

John Kowalchuk  maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes
Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1

Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it.
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns on Ebay; Lack of true student sized horns.

[matthew scheffelman]

There seems to not be any major USA manufactures
building an appropriate size student horn( ie. smaller
wrap, smaller bell). Paxman has one, Alex has one, as
others do in Europe. The Conn 6D is too big. Most
single F horns are too big. Posture problems among
many other issues are the result of starting on too
large of an instrument. 

Matthew Scheffelman
Horn

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Re: [Hornlist] re: Horns on Ebay

[billbamberg]

ebay is a primary source for good single horns, but you don't want to 
settle for the off shore trash. If you don't know the difference 
between a Conn 14D and a 4D, or a what a Reynolds Contempora is, don't 
expect any help from listers, and don't come crying when you get 
burned. However, there are inexpensive examples of professional quality 
single horns available daily to intelligent buyers with a little 
patience.


The dialog you have with the lister will tell you everything you need 
to avoid getting burned, and NEVER bid on anything that can't be 
returned. Honest sellers are usually open about being inexperienced, 
and would rather relist an item than stick a friendly buyer with a 
misrepresentation. All my students have exceptionally good ebay horns, 
and ended up spending more for a really good mouthpiece than for the 
horn. A couple of my starters have resold their ebay single F for more 
than enough to allow me to find them a good, professional level double.


-Original Message-
From: Scott Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: The Horn List 
Sent: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:24:53 -0800
Subject: [Hornlist] re: Horns on Ebay

Hiya,

They are cheaply made and strangely marketed but they are shiny and 
look very much like a French horn.


I have bought a few of these, mostly because they were cheaper than it 
would cost to buy a horn case. For $200 you can buy a shiny, 4 key horn 
and get a reasonably useful cut-bell horn case. A bargain any way you 
look at it.


Renting a single horn in my neighborhood costs around $60 a month and 
about a grand to buy it after are done renting it. I recommend for 
middle school and younger getting a cheap horn (flame proof suit 
engaged) in either F or Bb. Some of them play reasonably well, 
certainly well enough for a middle school kid. If it lasts 3 months you 
are ahead of the rental game.


The main problem with these horns is the poor materials they are made 
out of. I know a couple of repair people who will not touch them.


But whatever you do, don't let them use the chunk of metal that 
resembles a horn mouthpiece as a horn mouthpiece. Use it as a dibble.


Another hint on buying over the net - I never buy anything unless I 
have the sellers word I can return the horn for any reason. I don't 
want to get in an argument with someone who has never played a brass 
instrument over how stuffy or out of tune a horn is.


scottitto



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Re: [Hornlist] re: Horns on Ebay

[Alan Cole]

Shucks, look at Hyundai -- was pretty much junk when it hit the USA market, 
now it's sales are up & it's offering some pretty decent cars for the money.


Then again, there was Yugo.

Full Disclosure:  I drive USA-branded cars made elsewhere in North America 
(Mexico, Canada) by a company owned in Germany.  I play horns made in USA, 
plus 1 made in Japan, & 1 made in West Germany (back when there was a West 
Germany).


-- Alan Cole, rank amateur
   McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.
 ~~
The moral of the story:  low cost, poor quality imports don't always  stay 
low cost and poor quality.  Look at Jupiter.  They are 
constantly  improving their quality, but of course, the cost goes up all 
the time.



--
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Re: [Hornlist] re: Horns on Ebay

[BrassArtsUnlim]

 
In a message dated 3/17/2006 2:26:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Renting  a single horn in my neighborhood costs around $60 a month and 
about a  grand to buy it after are done renting it. I recommend for 
middle school  and younger getting a cheap horn (flame proof suit 
engaged) in either F or  Bb. Some of them play reasonably well, 
certainly well enough for a middle  school kid. If it lasts 3 months 
you are ahead of the rental  game.



--
I recently attended the Maryland Music Educators Conference and was located  
across the aisle from Eastman music.  
 
Years ago, Eastman had sent me a Kruspe wrap horn to demo to see if I  wanted 
to deal them.  This horn was a complete dog.  The valves were  horrible, and 
the scale was awful.  They were cheap, though.  You  could retail the thing 
for under $1000 and make a profit, and on a double  horn!  That is, if anyone 
would buy it.
 
Now fast forward to several weeks ago, and compare the result.The horn I 
saw on Eastman's table had some problems, but nothing that couldn't  be 
addressed.  The scale was certainly reasonable, the valves were now made  in a 
more 
traditional fashion and seemed likely to be more reliable than the  older 
ones.  But, of course, the cost had just about doubled.  Still,  it comes in as 
a 
new horn for about half what a Conn 6D would go for.  I  think these new model 
horns could very likely be in a rental stock or used as  starter doubles by 
elementary school children at a fairly low cost.
 
The moral of the story:  low cost, poor quality imports don't always  stay 
low cost and poor quality.  Look at Jupiter.  They are constantly  improving 
their quality, but of course, the cost goes up all the time.  
 
Dave Weiner
Maryland Band & Orchestra
Brass Arts Unlimited
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[Hornlist] re: Horns on Ebay

[Scott Hartman]

Hiya,

They are cheaply made and strangely marketed but they are shiny and 
look very much like a French horn.


I have bought a few of these, mostly because they were cheaper than 
it would cost to buy a horn case. For $200 you can buy a shiny, 4 key 
horn and get a reasonably useful cut-bell horn case. A bargain any 
way you look at it.


Renting a single horn in my neighborhood costs around $60 a month and 
about a grand to buy it after are done renting it. I recommend for 
middle school and younger getting a cheap horn (flame proof suit 
engaged) in either F or Bb. Some of them play reasonably well, 
certainly well enough for a middle school kid. If it lasts 3 months 
you are ahead of the rental game.


The main problem with these horns is the poor materials they are made 
out of. I know a couple of repair people who will not touch them.


But whatever you do, don't let them use the chunk of metal that 
resembles a horn mouthpiece as a horn mouthpiece. Use it as a dibble.


Another hint on buying over the net - I never buy anything unless I 
have the sellers word I can return the horn for any reason. I don't 
want to get in an argument with someone who has never played a brass 
instrument over how stuffy or out of tune a horn is.


scottitto





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[Hornlist] re: Horns on Ebay

[Leonard Brown]

Hello all~

  This may be a stupid question but I was looking at horns on ebay today and
I can't believe how cheap some of those things are!  I realize these horns
probably don't play worth a darn but if I wanted to buy one of these things
purely for decoration, would it be worth it?

  Shannon Midbrod   <<<

Wait a minute Shannon, I didn't know those horns were being sold for
anything but decoration.  You mean that they can be played also??

LB

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Re: [Hornlist] RE: horns on airlines

[Billbamberg]

attitude is everything.
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Re: [Hornlist] RE: horns on airplanes

[David Goldberg]

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Cabbage wondered
>
> Whoever told you that a 747 would fit in the overhead bin of an Airbus?
> And how did you get that thing through baggage screening?
>
> And David G wrote
>
> I winged it.
>
> *
> What a tall tail that is.

That's Wright, brother.


{  David Goldberg:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
 { Ann Arbor Michigan }


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[Hornlist] RE: horns on airplanes

[HornCabbage]

Cabbage wondered

Whoever told you that a 747 would fit in the overhead bin of an Airbus?
And how did you get that thing through baggage screening?

And David G wrote

I winged it.

*
What a tall tail that is.

gotta go,
Cabbage
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Re: [Hornlist] RE: horns on airlines

[David Goldberg]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> *
> Whoever told you that a 747 would fit in the overhead bin of an Airbus?
> And how did you get that thing through baggage screening?

I winged it.


{  David Goldberg:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
 { Ann Arbor Michigan }


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Re: [Hornlist] RE: horns on airlines

[John Kowalchuk]

At 08:39 PM 12/17/04 -0500, Patrick Morgan wrote:
>sad considering I had HUGE red stickers that said "fragile" all over 
>it.

Those are called targets.

John Kowalchuk  maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes
Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1

Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it.
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Re: [Hornlist] RE: horns on airlines

[Patrick Morgan]

I've taken several flights where my horn would definitely fit in the 
overhead compartments, yet I wasn't allowed to bring my horn on board. 
In one flight my case was thrown enough to crack it in 3 places, and 
these were BIG cracks. I had to buy a new case when I got home. It's 
sad considering I had HUGE red stickers that said "fragile" all over 
it.

Dave

On 17 déc. 04, at 20:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David G wrote
For what it's worth, I have found that my horn case just
fits in the overhead compartments of an Airbus 320,
but not a 747 by a fraction of an inch.
*
I'm not surprised at all.  Whoever told you that a 747
would fit in the overhead bin of an Airbus?  And how did
you get that thing through baggage screening?
Gotta go,
Cabbage
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[Hornlist] RE: horns on airlines

[HornCabbage]

David G wrote

For what it's worth, I have found that my horn case just 
fits in the overhead compartments of an Airbus 320, 
but not a 747 by a fraction of an inch.

*
I'm not surprised at all.  Whoever told you that a 747 
would fit in the overhead bin of an Airbus?  And how did
you get that thing through baggage screening?

Gotta go,
Cabbage  
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns a Plenty

[jlmthompson]

  Simple concept, that's how they generate their leads for new customers
like you and me.  I tried to buy several horns from them as well but 'having
sold them' they then tried being a bit pushy I might add at selling me
others I wasn't interested in.  Some of the ads they had for horns  sold
over a year ago are still advertised for sale today.  This is no mistake or
lack of 'work' on their part.  Yes, they're quite friendly but the 'bait and
switch' I didn't find very tasteful.
Jim
> from: Wilbert Kimple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> subject: Re: [Hornlist] Horns-a-Plenty
>
>
> I tried buying three different horns from them
> about six months ago.  It turned out that all three
> had been sold, but were still being listed on both
> their web site, and on hornplayer.net.
>
> Here it is six months later, and all three horns
> are still listed as for sale.  Guess they need to
> do some work in that department.
>
> Wilbert in SC
>
>

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[Hornlist] Re: horns a plenty

[Jjhornman]

Alan Wiltshire is the nicest guy and will answer any questions you may need.  Don't go 
by the webpage most of the horns there are references to what they have to sell.  He 
deals in different horns everyweek due to his high turnover rate.  Email is the best 
way to get ahold of him.  

Hope this helps,

Hoss in Iowa
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Xwing2231]

I am a senior in high school at the moment, so (having started in the 6th 
grade) it hasn't been a terrible long time since I was starting out.  Our school 
has several horns, none of which are new.  This includes a couple Conn 6D's, 
Kings that I don't know the models of, and 2 or 3 single F horns.  When I 
started I was given a double because I was somewhat larger than my fellow horn 
players.  I have also helped out several of the beginning sections since I have 
been in high school.  Some of the students have new horns, some borrow from the 
school.  I haven't seen a case yet where the horn makes the player feel or 
sound inferior.  In my case, I'm glad I started on the old one because it made me 
sound that much better when I finally bought one.  All in all, my advice 
would be to stick with something used, the old Conns and Kings still have a lot of 
life left in them even if they don't still shine.  I have never used a 
Holton, but I'm sure they are fine horns as well, since I know many people that play 
them, including my teacher Nicholas Perrini.  Once the kids have played a 
while and seem to want to stick with it then mention something about a new horn.  
That is just my thoughts, hardly professional.Michael
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[Hornlist] RE: Horns for middle school, but a little OT

[danatwiss]

Bob Losin said:

>I suggested this to a band director friend who thought it was a great
idea... but the powers that be informed him that money could only be
spent on new instruments, or repairing existing instruments. If the
repairs were too much money, then the instrument was scrapped,
notwithstanding that there were no funds for new ones. Welcome to the
world of school administrators.<

This may be true in the case of this particular school district, but
every school district I taught in allowed me to use my budget in the way
that best benefited the program. In some cases the "budget" from the
district was barely enough to cover office supplies. This is where a
good booster program can be a tremendous asset.
Even without a booster organization, most programs do fundraising to
some degree. So when planning the fundraising goals, I included the
purchase of used instruments for the school inventory as one of those
goals. This did not only include the typical, larger school owned
instruments, but a number of flutes, clarinets, cornets, and trombones.
Yes, these were available from the local instrument rental companies,
but teaching in impoverished inner-city and rural schools, not all kids
could afford the rentals. These used instruments were not old and worn
out junkers, but included rental returns or trade-ins from music
dealers, and instruments used by former students who had moved on to
other things (yes attrition is a fact of life). Pawn shops can be
another source of used instruments for reasonable money. The caution
here is that one has to be able to tell if the instrument is serviceable
or beyond repair, or have a resource that will evaluate them for you.
Obviously, if they are beyond repair or too costly to repair, pass it by
and keep looking. I don't know if the are still doing it, but Interstate
Music in Wisconsin and Taylor Music in South Dakota were  both good
sources for good, used instruments at reasonable prices. For the band or
orchestra director who's survival depends on generating sufficient
numbers in his/her program to keep the administrators happy, this is a
way to get more kids in the door. The more you get in the door, the more
you're likely to keep, ad infinitum.

Yes, I know there are situations where the district provides no budget
and doesn't want the stigma of having their students out fundraising. In
most cases, I've found that if you paint an accurate picture to the
administrators, they'll relent. You may have to work your way up the
chain to the superintendent or the school board/committee, but do your
homework, be prepared to answer their questions, be prepared to
demonstrate the "deplorable state of your inventory" and go for it.

Good luck

Dana Twiss, retired from the trenches
Litchfield, Maine




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Re: [Hornlist] RE: Horns for middle school

[Robert Losin]

At 17:27 16-03-04, you wrote:

Given the tight school budget situation and all the complaints about new 
horns, I would suggest taking a look at various sources for used instruments.
  I suggested this to a band director friend who thought it was a 
great idea... but the powers that be informed him that money could only be 
spent on new instruments, or repairing existing instruments.   If the 
repairs were too much money, then the instrument was scrapped, 
notwithstanding that there were no funds for new ones.  Welcome to the 
world of school administrators.

   I was planning on refurbishing the types of horns that you 
mentioned, it would have been about the third to one quarter the cost of a 
new one, and be a much better instrument.

Bob Losin

   

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Re: [Hornlist] RE: Horns for middle school

[Billbamberg]

Given the tight school budget situation and all the complaints about new horns, I 
would suggest taking a look at various sources for used instruments.  Vintage horns by 
Reynolds (Chambers and Pottag), Conn (6D), Holton, Yamaha, and King sell on eBay all 
the time in the $500-$700 range.  The pre- Texas 6D is a very professional horn.  The 
Reynolds horns, in good adjustment rank with the best horns ever made, regardless of 
price, with rotors that never wear out.

There are many sources for these horns, but eBay has been offering these horns from 
legitimate re-builders at very attractive prices with money back guarantees.  My 
inclination would be to approach these sources as a contract supplier.  You'd be 
getting professional level instruments from a supplier who would be accessible and 
personally responsible.  You might even be able to recycle quality, rebuild-able 
instruments through the same source.  The only really permanent damage done to middle 
school instruments is from incompetent technicians acid cleaning too long and too 
often.  Usually tightening the bearings and removing restrictive dents is all that is 
needed.  With modern dent machines, full cosmetic restoration is quite reasonable, but 
really isn't necessary.

Think of the extra music you could buy, or interesting trips that could be funded, 
with the money saved.  Besides, brand new instruments are going to look just like the 
rebuilt instruments by the time you get all the warranty problems solved.  I would 
much rather have a small business owner, who values my business year after year, 
responsible for my satisfaction.
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Greg Campbell]

Dave Tuttle wrote:
...I don't see what the big "Bb" deal is. Many times in a middle
school situation, your horn players are trumpet converts and the key
of the horn makes the transition easier. Obviously, an outstanding
player should be transitioned to a double horn anyway, so you're
going to have access to the Bb instrument regardless.
The vast majority of young students I've worked with who have access to 
a single B-flat horn or double horn early in their training resist using 
the F horn because the B-flat horn is "easier." I've often wondered why 
the schools bother spending money on double horns for beginners when 
these players will never touch the F side anyway. These students also 
generally don't get a good horn tone.

However:

Under the guidance of a *good teacher* who will make the student learn 
all the fingerings on both sides of the horn and make the student listen 
to recordings (and listen to the teacher!) to get a good model of horn 
tone to emulate, the type of horn a beginner plays makes little difference.

Greg

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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Richard Smith]

Mr. Smith,
With all due respect (and I do have enormous respect for hard working,
underpaid, often unappreciated middle/high school band directors), I started
on the Horn in 4th grade and was neither confused nor frustrated.  This
year, my 11 year old son has started the Horn (in F) and is neither confused
nor frustrated.  All the horn players I have played with up until a couple
years ago had started on the Horn.
Of course, no one told me that the horn was too hard for me to play.  I
guess that wasn't part of the pedagogical repertoire back in those days.
It was certainly not my intention to imply that all beginning hornists were 
confused or frustrated. I am sorry if you took it as such. The thread I 
addressed was regarding the Bb or F single horn for youngsters. I meant to 
suggest that the argument was less important if the students had previous 
experience on other instruments.

In cases where students have had previous musical experience (including 
piano, violin, ect), the opportunity for private instruction, and/or class 
instruction in a classroom with only horn players, beginning hornists will 
usually progress more consistently and reliably. Then we all know of (and 
maybe consider ourselves to be) those remarkable students who seem to 
succeed regardless of the obstacles in their path. It seems there is no 
stopping the student who really wants to play horn and I don't believe a 
teacher should try.

In my youth, I considered it almost sacrilege to begin a student on a wind 
instrument other than horn (even though I played piano, violin, euphonium 
and ((gsasp)) accordion before learning horn). After years of teaching, I 
have found that success is worth more than purity and that is the rationale 
behind my opinion.

Incidentally, I do not recommend switching from trumpet to horn (a very 
normal route) because of difficulty in adjusting embouchure and tonal 
concepts. Nevertheless, many very successful hornists began as trumpet players.

Lastly, may I say that I have never told any student that the instrument 
(or any other) was too hard. I do my best not to give students reasons, 
expectations, or excuses for failure.

Richard Smith
R.G.Smith Music Engraving & Publishing
rgsmithmusic.com
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[Hornlist] RE: Horns for middle school

[HornCabbage]

Josh C wrote

I never said I couldn't play in tune on one.  I can play in tune on a garden
hose with a funnel jammed in the end.  I said they were "notoriously
difficult to play in tune".  Glad you've got my problem all figured out
though.  Now if I can just figure out which end to put the mouthpiece
in...

*
Try the opposite end from the funnel, Josh, unless
it's already attached to a faucet, in which case,
don't bother.

Speaking of which, my opera Fun with Dick and Jane,
which features a solo garden hose (in D) in the famed
aria See Spot Run will be staged in San Francisco this 
August.  I am sure that many hornlist members will
be anxious to make reservations to visit Bayreuth
that month.

Gotta go,
Cabbage
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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Pandolfi, Orlando]

There is quite a difference between trumpet and horn, especially with regards to 
embouchure, yet there are many successful hornists who have started out on trumpet.  
Unfortunately, too many teachers ignore the differences when encouraging the students 
to switch, and consequently, there are many bad student horn players who try to play 
the horn like an F trumpet.  There are some wonderful horn players (John Cerminaro for 
one) who were very much Bb side players in their youth.  At the same time, there are 
many who believe that the only true way to train a horn player is to make them get 
used to the f side of the horn, or play a single f.  Frankly, in my experience, both 
have their advantages.  Players trained on the Bb side often have tremendous 
confidence in their technique which leads to better accuracy when that confidence is 
applied to the F side.  F side players have a better understanding of how to attain a 
richer tone on the Bb side as the fuller harmonic tone is what they are used to.  
Eventually, a great player makes it all sound good.  These days, we see more and more 
first horn players using the high f of a triple or descant horn in the lower range of 
the horn.  I have seen major league players play the big solo of Shostakovich 5 all on 
high f and sound great.  I try to encourage my students to use the horn where it suits 
the music best, and therefore I believe that students should be trained to play the 
horn in all registers on both sides of the horn. I say get a decent double horn in 
their hands as soon as possible, but start them on whichever single horn best offsets 
their weaknesses.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of Jeremy Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 10:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School


On 3/16/04 7:32 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If one uses a separate technique
> play Bb horn as opposed to F horn, then they are missing the point.
> Following this same thought process, is the Eb horn bad, too? Or is there a
> magical quality about Horn in F? I doubt that in the early days of natural
> horns, teachers would have insisted on beginners playing on the F crook
> only.

There is a difference between crooks, and knowing the difference in
response, sound, and technique can inform your performance, both on a period
instrument and while transposing parts on a modern instrument. It is not
true to think that one crook can be treated like another. The F horn Is in
the middle, balanced between fullness and brightness, fast and slow
response. Just because double horns contain a Bb horn does not mean that the
Bb horn is the appropriate sound and response model for the entire
instrument. I never made an argument that a student should do it the hard
way. This has to do with doing it the right way, or rather, the way that
sounds most like a horn player. Similarly, if you really want hornists who
do not sound like hornists, start them on trumpet or some other instrument.
There is much more to this than getting the notes right. There are way too
many overworked educators in high schools who do not have the time,
resources, or training to instill in hornists a true concept of the
instrument. Promoting a consistent, artful, and idiomatic model of sound and
technique is one way to ameliorate this.

While frustration is a real factor, so is a student's sense of
accomplishment. For every challenge to learning to play like a horn player,
there is a victory for the student. This is where artful, quality teaching
comes in. As we all know, many student hornists enjoy the notion of playing
the "peculiar" instrument; they will enjoy their instrument greater if it
truly sounds like a horn. Playing single Bb horns (or using the Bb side
exclusively on a double) interferes with this.

Jeremy Hansen

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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Timothy A. Johnson]

Mr. Smith,
With all due respect (and I do have enormous respect for hard working,
underpaid, often unappreciated middle/high school band directors), I started
on the Horn in 4th grade and was neither confused nor frustrated.  This
year, my 11 year old son has started the Horn (in F) and is neither confused
nor frustrated.  All the horn players I have played with up until a couple
years ago had started on the Horn.

Of course, no one told me that the horn was too hard for me to play.  I
guess that wasn't part of the pedagogical repertoire back in those days.

Timothy A. Johnson
Information Technologies
Northwestern College
St. Paul, Minnesota

http://tajohnson.org 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Richard Smith
Sent: Monday, 15 March, 2004 8:18 PM
To: The Horn List
Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

As one who has taught both middle school and high school for 25 years, I 
can assure you that the surest way to run off beginners is to give them a 
horn (Bb or F) as their first instrument. They will be terribly confused 
and frustrated.

All of the concern about starting on a Bb or F horn can be solved by making 
sure that the student's first instrument is not a horn. Have them play 
flute or clarinet for a year. They will develop as horn players faster and 
without the drop out rate of those who start on horn.

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[Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Jeremy Hansen]

On 3/16/04 7:32 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If one uses a separate technique
> play Bb horn as opposed to F horn, then they are missing the point.
> Following this same thought process, is the Eb horn bad, too? Or is there a
> magical quality about Horn in F? I doubt that in the early days of natural
> horns, teachers would have insisted on beginners playing on the F crook
> only.

There is a difference between crooks, and knowing the difference in
response, sound, and technique can inform your performance, both on a period
instrument and while transposing parts on a modern instrument. It is not
true to think that one crook can be treated like another. The F horn Is in
the middle, balanced between fullness and brightness, fast and slow
response. Just because double horns contain a Bb horn does not mean that the
Bb horn is the appropriate sound and response model for the entire
instrument. I never made an argument that a student should do it the hard
way. This has to do with doing it the right way, or rather, the way that
sounds most like a horn player. Similarly, if you really want hornists who
do not sound like hornists, start them on trumpet or some other instrument.
There is much more to this than getting the notes right. There are way too
many overworked educators in high schools who do not have the time,
resources, or training to instill in hornists a true concept of the
instrument. Promoting a consistent, artful, and idiomatic model of sound and
technique is one way to ameliorate this.

While frustration is a real factor, so is a student's sense of
accomplishment. For every challenge to learning to play like a horn player,
there is a victory for the student. This is where artful, quality teaching
comes in. As we all know, many student hornists enjoy the notion of playing
the "peculiar" instrument; they will enjoy their instrument greater if it
truly sounds like a horn. Playing single Bb horns (or using the Bb side
exclusively on a double) interferes with this.

Jeremy Hansen

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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[McBeth, Amy J]

As one who has taught both middle school and high school for 25 years, I

can assure you that the surest way to run off beginners is to give them
a 
horn (Bb or F) as their first instrument. They will be terribly confused

and frustrated.


Maybe I was an exception, but I wasn't confused.  I was probably
frustrated at times, but having started on an F single horn, I think it
(eventually) helped give me a really good ear.

Amy

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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Richard Smith]

I understand what you're saying, however I don't agree that most of the
advantage is for the advanced player on the Bb side. With the partials
further apart, it would make it less "slippery" for a beginning student. The
frustration factor is a real one, though I agree that from a pure sense it
is best to go with the F horn.


As one who has taught both middle school and high school for 25 years, I 
can assure you that the surest way to run off beginners is to give them a 
horn (Bb or F) as their first instrument. They will be terribly confused 
and frustrated.

All of the concern about starting on a Bb or F horn can be solved by making 
sure that the student's first instrument is not a horn. Have them play 
flute or clarinet for a year. They will develop as horn players faster and 
without the drop out rate of those who start on horn.



Richard Smith
R.G.Smith Music Engraving & Publishing
rgsmithmusic.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Dave Tuttle]

> That's not what these people are saying
> at all, the people back then were using the resources they had, as they
are
> now.  It is just generally more accepted that it is fundamentally better
for a
> student to learn on a single F over a single Bb.  While there are some
> advantages to playing a Bb, they are mostly for advanced players to get a
slight edge
> on playing fast licks and for note accuracy.  Eventually the student will
move
> to a double horn.  Why should that pose as more of a challenge?  A student
> should feel like he is improving his playing by switching to a double, not
> hindering it because now he has to be annoyed by the F side.  Learn the
hard way
> first.  It will make it easier in the long run.

I understand what you're saying, however I don't agree that most of the
advantage is for the advanced player on the Bb side. With the partials
further apart, it would make it less "slippery" for a beginning student. The
frustration factor is a real one, though I agree that from a pure sense it
is best to go with the F horn.

The reason I took things to the nth degree with the argument is to show the
inherent fallacy of it. If you use the argument in a different way, you
should learn to walk a tightrope without a balance bar first. This way,
it'll be much easier when you add the bar...

I believe the original suggestion for Bb horns were for weight, etc. I know
that some manufacturers make compact F horns for smaller students. This is
all fine and good, but it's for the buyer or teacher to decide. My point,
which obviously got lost here, is that it won't matter what horn you play on
as long as you're schooled on proper technique. Is the single F a better
choice? Probably. Is a single Bb all that bad? Probably not. That's all I'm
saying.

The way some people reacted, you'd think Bb horns were radioactive. If
that's really the case, then why do most all advanced players have and use
them in their double horns??? I'm sure you'll find plenty of excellent
players who got their start on Bb horns. It's certainly not a death sentence
to future success. Let's not treat it as such. Of course, you'll probably
find the same extreme reactions in the Kruspe/Geyer wrap argument. :-)


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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Scheimy]

In a message dated 03/15/2004 5:59:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
is the Eb horn bad, too? Or is there a
magical quality about Horn in F? I doubt that in the early days of natural
horns, teachers would have insisted on beginners playing on the F crook
only. Plus, you change the inherent pitch base of the horn every time you
depress a valve... So should students play all notes open???
You went a little too far there.  There is a reason why the horn has become 
written in F.  It sounds the best, plain and simple.  As for "I doubt that in 
the early days of natural
horns, teachers would have insisted on beginners playing on the F crook
only" of course they wouldn't have.  That's not what these people are saying 
at all, the people back then were using the resources they had, as they are 
now.  It is just generally more accepted that it is fundamentally better for a 
student to learn on a single F over a single Bb.  While there are some 
advantages to playing a Bb, they are mostly for advanced players to get a slight edge 
on playing fast licks and for note accuracy.  Eventually the student will move 
to a double horn.  Why should that pose as more of a challenge?  A student 
should feel like he is improving his playing by switching to a double, not 
hindering it because now he has to be annoyed by the F side.  Learn the hard way 
first.  It will make it easier in the long run.

Michael Scheimer, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,
Student
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Dave Tuttle]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Hansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Never, ever, ever buy single Bb horns for your students. If anyone says
that
> the difference in sound and technique doesn't make a difference, then they
> are missing the point of the instrument.
>
> Jeremy Hansen

I would have to disagree with you on this. If one uses a separate technique
play Bb horn as opposed to F horn, then they are missing the point.
Following this same thought process, is the Eb horn bad, too? Or is there a
magical quality about Horn in F? I doubt that in the early days of natural
horns, teachers would have insisted on beginners playing on the F crook
only. Plus, you change the inherent pitch base of the horn every time you
depress a valve... So should students play all notes open???

I can see that you might find the longer horn and closer partials as
something a student should battle through, but I don't see what the big "Bb"
deal is. Many times in a middle school situation, your horn players are
trumpet converts and the key of the horn makes the transition easier.
Obviously, an outstanding player should be transitioned to a double horn
anyway, so you're going to have access to the Bb instrument regardless.
You're taking a purist's view of the situation, and I can understand that,
but good teaching will minimize any perceived downside to the Bb horn, IMHO.

Dave Tuttle
Principal Horn, Mojave Desert Hootenanny Ensemble & Modern Music Consort


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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Margery Landis]

I agree completely.single Bb horns are not a good way to go at all.

By the way.Holton horns work very well, particularly for middle  
schoolers.  I would strongly recommend the 177.  It has a medium throat  
and bell, is solidly built and gets along really well with middle  
school kids.  The 179 is a poor choice for that age group because the  
bell/throat  is too large for them.

Margie Landis

Never, ever, ever buy single Bb horns for your students. If anyone  
says that
the difference in sound and technique doesn't make a difference, then  
they
are missing the point of the instrument.

Jeremy Hansen

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[Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Jeremy Hansen]

Never, ever, ever buy single Bb horns for your students. If anyone says that
the difference in sound and technique doesn't make a difference, then they
are missing the point of the instrument.

Jeremy Hansen

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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for middle school

[Pandolfi, Orlando]

I believe all of you should look carefully at the new Hoyer horns.  I only use the 
word "new" because Gerhardt Meinl, of  Meinl-Weston tuba fame is now the owner of the 
Hoyer company.  I had the pleasure of visiting the workshop in Germany, and the 
quality is exceptional.  There are several models available, although the focus right 
now is a top hand made line.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 2:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for middle school


In a message dated 3/15/04 1:00:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> Well put, Walt!  If you can't play in tune on a Holton, your problem
> is probably not equipment. 
> 

Well put Walt and Peter!
 In my experience with the middle school horns I work on, the ones that 
have stood up the best to several years of use have been the Holton 379s 
(nickel silver).  With the 378s the schools have (brass), the leadpipes are already 
rotting out (red rot).  The nickel silver horns will probably just physically 
last longer (harder to remove dents though).  Most of the school Conns and 
Kings I've been seeing that are more than a couple of years old have red rot 
problems as well and their lacquer is not very durable and they tend to have valve 
corrosion problems (these are the Eastlake-made horns).  I think I'd pick the 
379 over the 179 for middle school use because of the cheaper price and with 
the smaller bell, a little easier to play for young kids.
I've talked the local middle school band directors into using AliSyn 
valve oil on their horns which has saved a lot of valve repair money for them.  
It's actually cut the summer repair budget almost in half!  It's a little 
thicker, so I don't use it on my own horn, but the main advantage is that it doesn't 
evaporate like most regular oils.  If you oil it today, it'll still be there 
in a couple of months.  It has really helped to cut down on corrosion problems 
for the school horns.  I use it on "shelf" horns that might sit around for 
awhile without being played. 

- Steve Mumford 
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Christopher Bonner]

I am not sure that a "decent" chinese horn is good enough yet, especially to
survive years of use by middle school students.  The chinese instruments
that have come into our school in the last couple of years, trumpets and
clarinets, have been dreadful.
Happy Thoughts,
Chris
- Original Message - 
From: "Benno Heinemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:31 PM
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School


>
> The time has come, I believe, when we can't just say don't buy a
> chinese Horn.
> The chinese are starting to build some really quite decent Instruments
> now, but you wouldn't want to buy one without tried it, since there are
> still a lot of them that are junk. ( I tried one, it was in F minor!)
> The price of some of these Horns are unbelievable. Less than you would
> pay for Raw Material in this country. Soon I beleive this will
> constitute a threat to many established manufacturers of Student and
> Band Instruments.
>
> Incidentally, imagine, there is a fellow here in Germany selling
> chinese Double Horns on Ebay with his own Name on them, saying he built
> them himself!
>
> with good Wishes,
>
> Benno Heinemann
>
>
> Hamburg, Germany
>
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Christopher Bonner]

Hello to All,
 I am going to throw my two cents into this discussion.  I have several
friends that teach middle school, and I have numerous students from the
schools that study with me.
 I think the Holton H179 is a wonderful student horn.  I have never had
a problem with tuning them, and most of the problems have been in the valve
area, and most of those were minor or due to student neglect.
 I had a student who played the Yamaha 567 for three years, the horn
played well, and he had a gorgeous sound on it. The horn was also very sound
mechanically.  The problem, as I believe Walt pointed out was with the
tuning the horn.  For that reason alone I hesitate to recommend it.
 One of the middle school teachers, who is also a hornist is considering
replacing all of the school's King horns with the Conn 6D. I have always
liked the 6D, and  never had any problems with them.  I am not sure what the
price differencce is between the 9D and the 6D, the 9D may be out of the
schools price range, and may not even be on the official school board bid
list. (if they have a bid list, I know we do)
 Yamaha makes a really nice single Bb horn that plays very well, and has
proven to be a very reliable instrument, I remember is costing in the
$1000.00 range.  Very playable by smaller players.
  I strongly recommend NOT BUYING whatever that thing is that King tries
to pass off as a student model horn.  I am sure we all know the ones with
the plastic arms on the Bb trigger.
  Happy Thoughts,
  Chris Bonner


- Original Message - 
From: "Benno Heinemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:31 PM
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School


>
> The time has come, I believe, when we can't just say don't buy a
> chinese Horn.
> The chinese are starting to build some really quite decent Instruments
> now, but you wouldn't want to buy one without tried it, since there are
> still a lot of them that are junk. ( I tried one, it was in F minor!)
> The price of some of these Horns are unbelievable. Less than you would
> pay for Raw Material in this country. Soon I beleive this will
> constitute a threat to many established manufacturers of Student and
> Band Instruments.
>
> Incidentally, imagine, there is a fellow here in Germany selling
> chinese Double Horns on Ebay with his own Name on them, saying he built
> them himself!
>
> with good Wishes,
>
> Benno Heinemann
>
>
> Hamburg, Germany
>
> ___
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>


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[Hornlist] Re: Horns for middle school

[MUMFORDHornworks]

In a message dated 3/15/04 1:00:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> Well put, Walt!  If you can't play in tune on a Holton, your problem
> is probably not equipment. 
> 

Well put Walt and Peter!
 In my experience with the middle school horns I work on, the ones that 
have stood up the best to several years of use have been the Holton 379s 
(nickel silver).  With the 378s the schools have (brass), the leadpipes are already 
rotting out (red rot).  The nickel silver horns will probably just physically 
last longer (harder to remove dents though).  Most of the school Conns and 
Kings I've been seeing that are more than a couple of years old have red rot 
problems as well and their lacquer is not very durable and they tend to have valve 
corrosion problems (these are the Eastlake-made horns).  I think I'd pick the 
379 over the 179 for middle school use because of the cheaper price and with 
the smaller bell, a little easier to play for young kids.
I've talked the local middle school band directors into using AliSyn 
valve oil on their horns which has saved a lot of valve repair money for them.  
It's actually cut the summer repair budget almost in half!  It's a little 
thicker, so I don't use it on my own horn, but the main advantage is that it doesn't 
evaporate like most regular oils.  If you oil it today, it'll still be there 
in a couple of months.  It has really helped to cut down on corrosion problems 
for the school horns.  I use it on "shelf" horns that might sit around for 
awhile without being played. 

- Steve Mumford 
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns for Middle School

[Benno Heinemann]

The time has come, I believe, when we can't just say don't buy a 
chinese Horn.
The chinese are starting to build some really quite decent Instruments 
now, but you wouldn't want to buy one without tried it, since there are 
still a lot of them that are junk. ( I tried one, it was in F minor!)
The price of some of these Horns are unbelievable. Less than you would 
pay for Raw Material in this country. Soon I beleive this will 
constitute a threat to many established manufacturers of Student and 
Band Instruments.

Incidentally, imagine, there is a fellow here in Germany selling 
chinese Double Horns on Ebay with his own Name on them, saying he built 
them himself!

with good Wishes,

Benno Heinemann

Hamburg, Germany

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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns made by Ron Pinc

[stuart womble]

Ron has made a few horns in the past.  Dan Gingrich of
the Chicago Symphony was playing one until very
recently when he got a new Lewis.  Dan seemed to like
his Pinc when he played mostly third horn.  Ron is a
great repairman and makes excellent leadpipes.  You
can get his contact info at www.laskey.com

Stuart

--- Robert Osmun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ron started as a trumpet repairman at Schilke and
> later work for several
> years with Steve Lewis. Most recently he has been
> rebuilding trumpets with
> Scott Laskey. He's a nice guy and a very talented
> fellow.
> 
> Bob Osmun
> www.osmun.com 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Robert
> Marlatt
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 3:56 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns made by Ron Pinc
> 
> 
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >  > Does anyone know about horns made by Ronald
> Pinc?
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] replied:
> >How do you spell it in Chinese?
> 
> Ron Pinc was a HIGHLY respected repairperson in
> Chicago when I 
> attended Northwestern University. I do not have
> first hand knowledge 
> of his own horns.
> 
> Bob Marlatt
> Boston MA
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> 
> 
> 
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RE: [Hornlist] Re: Horns made by Ron Pinc

[Robert Osmun]

Ron started as a trumpet repairman at Schilke and later work for several
years with Steve Lewis. Most recently he has been rebuilding trumpets with
Scott Laskey. He's a nice guy and a very talented fellow.

Bob Osmun
www.osmun.com 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
Marlatt
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 3:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Horns made by Ron Pinc


>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>  > Does anyone know about horns made by Ronald Pinc?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] replied:
>How do you spell it in Chinese?

Ron Pinc was a HIGHLY respected repairperson in Chicago when I 
attended Northwestern University. I do not have first hand knowledge 
of his own horns.

Bob Marlatt
Boston MA
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[Hornlist] Re: Horns made by Ron Pinc

[Robert Marlatt]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 > Does anyone know about horns made by Ronald Pinc?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] replied:
How do you spell it in Chinese?
Ron Pinc was a HIGHLY respected repairperson in Chicago when I 
attended Northwestern University. I do not have first hand knowledge 
of his own horns.

Bob Marlatt
Boston MA
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Re: [Hornlist] Re:: Horns made by Ron Pinc

[Billbamberg]

In a message dated 2/22/2004 11:39:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> 
> Does anyone know about horns made by Ronald Pinc?

How do you spell it in Chinese?
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[Hornlist] Re:: Horns made by Ron Pinc

[Michael I. Goode]

Does anyone know about horns made by Ronald Pinc?

These were at the Midwest show in Chicago and were a new item.

Mike Goode
www.trumpetworkspress.com

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Re: [Hornlist] RE: Horns in Boston

[jdelarosa]

Dear Ken:

I was talking about the Chicago Symphony where are recently as yesterday
afternoon it was 100% brass, Geyer wrap horns on which they sounded
phenomenal. I have no doubt that great players on various brands can and do
blend beautifully. I guess the approach here is that the section will blend
even better with very similar equipment.

How are you feeling? Which piece did you record?

Julio de la Rosa

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 4:56 PM
Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Horns in Boston


Gee.. I don't know Julio We just finished a recording session this
morning - and the 3rd hornist (Kevin Owen) was playing an 8D  There
was no running him outta town because of his large bore - and he sounded
great on it!
(rest of the section was, Rauch, Geyer, and Paxman)
Ken Pope

"Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow"

U.S. Dealer:  Ricco Kühn and Dietmar Dürk
Pope Instrument Repair
80 Wenham Street
Jamaica Plain, MA  02130
617-522-0532





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[Hornlist] RE: Horns in Boston

[ken]

Gee.. I don't know Julio We just finished a recording session this
morning - and the 3rd hornist (Kevin Owen) was playing an 8D  There
was no running him outta town because of his large bore - and he sounded
great on it!
(rest of the section was, Rauch, Geyer, and Paxman)
Ken Pope

"Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow"
 
U.S. Dealer:  Ricco Kühn and Dietmar Dürk
Pope Instrument Repair
80 Wenham Street
Jamaica Plain, MA  02130
617-522-0532





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Re: [Hornlist] Re: horns H179

[Wilbert Kimple]

As some of you may remember, I am not, and never
have been, a big fan of Holton double horns,
especially the 179.

Most of the ones I've heard, played, and briefly
owned, have had a big, woffy, unfocused sound, that
may have sounded OK up close, but lost its power at
the edge of the stage.  It seems that most Holtons
don't blend well in a mixed brand horn section, but
usually work fine in an all Holton section.  

I feel that the smaller belled H 177 is a far
better instrument than the more popular 179, at
least for my tastes.  Holton's lack of quality
control has been an issue for many years, so one
must really check closely for proper assembly, and
play test the instrument carefully in order to see
that all notes are playable and in tune.  

Most Holtons also tend to go sharp the higher up in
the staff you play.  Your right hand position must
be adjusted accordingly, in fact bent into an "L"
in order to correct this trend.  Also, Holton
claims that their horns are built at A=445, and so,
the whole range of the horn is sharp for most
people.  Holton sells a slide kit in order to bring
the horn down to A=440.  Strange!

Having said all of that, one of my adult students
has the best 179 I've ever played.  A nice, warm,
focused sound, the intonation is great, and the
horn has a full four octave range.  While not my
style of horn, it out plays every other 179 I've
seen over the past twenty or thirty years.

I feel, and have stated many times, that the
Merker-Matic horns are much more to my liking, than
the 179s.  I especially like the Merker with the
rose brass bell.  Looks classy and plays great.

My experience has shown that the performance of
many Holton horns can be improved by using a Bach 3
mouthpiece, or one of Moosewood's fine selection of
mouthpieces specifically made for Holton horns.


My two cents.  Your milage (and personal tastes)
may vary.  

(Seems like I just posted something similar to this
on the other horn list.)

Wilbert in SC
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[Hornlist] Re: horns H179

[JKosta]

If you are using a mouthpiece with bore size of 10 or bigger (i.e. 9, 8, 7, 
6, etc.), then I suggest that you first try a different mpc with a 'medium' 
cup depth and a bore size of about 12. Excellent mpc advice can be gotton 
from Tom Greer (Moosewood), and from John Ericson's pages - 

http://www.hornmouthpiece.com/
http://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/equipment.htm 

I'm an adult amateur and am very satisfied with a Moosewood B12 mpc for my 
Yamaha 668N. I've used several different mpc and the B12 gives me good 
combination of sound, endurance, intonation, response and range. 

The various Holton horns all seem to be reasonably good, and the 
Merker-Matic models have been getting very good comments. Make sure you have 
a try-out period to return or exchange the horn if you are buying a new one 
- sometimes there are some dogs. 

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
---
Priscilla Douglas writes: 

Hi, if anyone wants to talk about horns, here's a request:  I am considering
purchasing a Holton H179 (or one of those similar models) because I like its
sound, intonation, and it seems to "fit" me in terms of the way I play (I'm
an amateur, not always in tip-top shape, and I feel as if I am working way
too hard to play my Conn 8D - well, that is:  ;-)  Would anyone like to
express their opinion (on THIS list - hah, who doesn't?) on these horns,
and brass, vs. nickel silver vs bronze "lightweight"bell? 

In advance, thanks. 

Priscilla Douglas 


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