RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Message text written by The Horn List >Well, you should agree with other sections on which zigzag of the conductors beat all should release their sound. If you play after the beat (as trombones do too often !), you will be late.< Dear All Reminds me of a rehearsal many years ago where the conductor (no names, no pack drill) told the TROMBONES that they were late. The Bass trombonist (who lives very near to me - we were gigging together last week) who has a very strong Yorkshire accent which he likes to exaggerate jumped up and called out "I can't follow t' b.y windmill" and sat down again. Or what about the first horn who once told another conductor (but in a rehearsal of the same orchestra) "Stop waving your arms about like that - it is most off putting!" Mind you, we once had a guest conductor who CONDUCTED behind the beat and had a look of panic on his face if we tried to play later in order to keep in step with him. I never worked that one out (nor did anyone else). Cheers Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] anticipating the beat
Dear nick Yes , it is a common practice to anticipate the beat , especially in a resonant space , like a big hall or a church . I am playing in a chamber orchestra , and when I am freelancing in a symphony orchestra I tend to attach my beat to the movement of the batton ( that is , of course , if I am leading the section ).there are quite a few recordings out there where the horn section is late . you are in a good company .. Alon Reuven Israel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 2:14:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But the main problems for recordings is the feed-back, so to > say the SALE. As long as pop music could pay for classical > recordings, the world was in good order, > Hi Hans, I was refering mostly to commercial recordings- studio recordings -jingles -and popular cd's. You are right about the other. The classical recording situation is much more complicated with the loss of the market for it . And yes, I also agree with you. The GOLDEN YEARS are history. In a conversation we had yesterday, Vince deRosa said basically the same thing-"the good old days are over". Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Hello Paul, I think the problem is by far more complex. Incompetence (conductors & producers) mixed with low cash return (companies producing electronic consumer media) leads to rush things (micing, seating, halls, editing, etc.). But the main problems for recordings is the feed-back, so to say the SALE. As long as pop music could pay for classical recordings, the world was in good order, but as soon as we all got good copy machines (PC, MAC), the whole world started to copy their favourite songs & the sales declined dramatically. And the law maker even granted the right to copy up to seven copies for private use. Ridiculous, indeed. It reduced the sales to a mere 20% of the former numbers. So it happen to the classical music & lately to the DVD. There are plenty sellers on ebay, selling illegal products from China, even copying the wrong Japanese spelling of names by the original Japanese producers, which I doubt very much if they produced "kosher" products ... So no wonder, that most well selling orchestras got out of the recording business except ViennaPO & BerlinPO, perhaps, but reduced also. Good productions are so costly, no big brand can afford paying between half & one million USD just to produce Meistersingers under a (even) not well selling conductor. Who of the conductors is selling well at all ? Mehta, just joking, Maazel, just so-so, Muti, not really, - interesting, that most names start with "M", while the big sellers (all dead now) had names with a "K" in front: Karajan, Kubelik, Knappertsbusch, Keilberth, Kletzki, Kleiber (Erich), K-arl Boehm, etc. The new recordings are often arranged to please the ego of a new GMD (Generalmusicdirector), sponsored by xy-company, the orchestras main sponsor. But nobody buys these recordings, so they give them free to their subscribers. Ooops, dont forget the fee one has to pay to the authors association, quite an amount, if you calculate the expenses for a CD. This fee is calculated at about 8% from the list price & has to be paid in advance of the sales for the full bunch of pressed CDs, no matter if you can sell them or not, except you get the recording done by a big company. They pay this fee according to the sales. But it means, there is no or nearly no financial feed back. This is not a joke, it is real. And, the producer gets just 45% of the list price but has to pay for all expenses. The selling chain eats up most of the cake. And, the producer has to pay all the promotion, the bank credit, interest, artists, conductors, musicians, hall, equipment, insurance ... But some of us complain about crap productions of mediocre orchestras. Insane Living on another planet, perhaps. The Golden Years are over, they are history. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 6:45 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. > David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You wonder what goes through the minds of the > producers. > David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You wonder what goes through the minds of the > producers. > David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
As said before: well, Loren, much theory, but practica is a bit different, perhaps. Quoting myself: "Well, you should agree with other sections on which zigzag of the conductors beat all should release their sound. If you play after the beat (as trombones do too often !), you will be late. Everybody has to come with the beat, which means, all have to link in with the conductors beat, feel it & play with it. Acoustically: if there is too much space between the horns & a wall behind, reflecting their sound, it might take longer for the sound to reach the mic indeed. Trying a different seating (as recommended by others) would help as well as certain sound reflectors (sound shields) well behind the horns, say some one meter or 1.5. This is a field for experiments. But how would you manage precise playing, if you had to anticipate every note ? Impossible. And if, how far apart from the other instruments would the horns be playing, as most horns tend to be a bit early anyway." It is all right true, what you said, special when quoting Phil Myers. All players in the ensemble should play WITH THE BEAT, not "when the baton hits ground" (means when the beat arrives at the lowest point). The sound must come TOGETHER with the conductors stroke. How to get it ? Command your tongue & lips to sound release, when the conductor moves his baton, and release the sound (air) instantly WITHOUT any delay, never as Oooompah. Pronounce Oooompah, to get the wrong feeling, to know, how it must not be, and do it the right way. The Oooompah might also be called the Ketchup attack. Try it with a bottle of Ketchup to know the effect: shake the bottle & splash comes out with delay. So the attack of many horn players. Correct that & you will be in heaven. Viel Spass !!! = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Mayhew Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:46 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat There are several reasons suggested for this problem. Unless the horns are miked and tracked separately, it doesn't seem likely to blame the delay on the sound engineers. The fact that the horns are the only ones late suggests that it is not a problem understanding the conductor's beet. Rather it is most likely a timing problem caused by 1) the way the horns attack entrances or 2) the time delay of the reflected sound. For the first point it seems important for the hornists to be completely ready at least a beat ahead of the entrance, if possible, with air support, embouchure and tongue position so that at the moment of the attack all you need to do is release the tongue and the note plays; for some players this may take some practice to do this. Phil Meyers recommends preparing for an entrance in time with the rhythm: breathe, set, release. It is very important for horn players to be ready ahead of the beat so that they can more easily compensate for the time delay of the reflected sound. If you attack the entrance exactly on the beat or exactly with the instruments around you, the horn sound will be late. A beat before the entrance is too late to be getting ready to play. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
There are several reasons suggested for this problem. Unless the horns are miked and tracked separately, it doesn't seem likely to blame the delay on the sound engineers. The fact that the horns are the only ones late suggests that it is not a problem understanding the conductor's beet. Rather it is most likely a timing problem caused by 1) the way the horns attack entrances or 2) the time delay of the reflected sound. For the first point it seems important for the hornists to be completely ready at least a beat ahead of the entrance, if possible, with air support, embouchure and tongue position so that at the moment of the attack all you need to do is release the tongue and the note plays; for some players this may take some practice to do this. Phil Meyers recommends preparing for an entrance in time with the rhythm: breathe, set, release. It is very important for horn players to be ready ahead of the beat so that they can more easily compensate for the time delay of the reflected sound. If you attack the entrance exactly on the beat or exactly with the instruments around you, the horn sound will be late. A beat before the entrance is too late to be getting ready to play. Regarding the second point, the reflected sound, the ideal distance between the bell and the reflector is 6 feet or approximately 2 meters and the bells and or reflector surface should be positioned so that the sound is reflected past or around the bell, not straight back into it. For most of us, the reflector is the back wall. A curtain in front of the back wall is not a reflector, but if the curtain material is particularly heavy, it may be a sound absorber; in that case you may need to place a portable reflector in front of the curtain. At six feet, the sound delay is tolerable (5-6 milliseconds) and is usually barely noticeable by the audience but may be quite noticeable in a digital recording. It might seem obvious then that the closer your bell is to the reflector surface the better because it reduces the delay, but this turns out to be not true. If the bell is closer than four feet, then the sound cannot reflect around or past the bell effectively and much or all of the sound reflects back into the bell so you have quite a battle going on trying to push out new sound while the old sound is trying to get back in. This leads to exhausted players and missed notes and the poor audience doesn't get their due. Farther than six feet and the sound delay becomes noticeably objectionable. The faster the tempo, the more noticeable the delay and the more necessary to articulate ahead. At mm 60, each beat is 1000 milliseconds, a delay of 5 milliseconds is .5% (hardly noticeable). At mm 120, each beat is 500 milliseconds, so a delay of 5 milliseconds is 1% of a beat (more noticeable) and so on. This is what makes after beats such a challenge at fast tempos for hornists; as the tempo gets faster you have to play after beats closer to the beat or they will sound later and later. This is why it helps to have the snare drums also play after beats, because they don't have the delay problem that horns have, then you just sync with the drums. If you are hearing a 1/4 beat delay, them my guess is that your bells are at least 15 feet or more from a reflecting surface or else you don't have a useful reflecting surface, like when a band or orchestra is positioned in the middle of an auditorium away from any walls. Sometimes we have to play with the horns jammed up against the back wall. The only solution I have for this situation is to sit at an angle to the wall so the sound is reflected past the bell to one side or the other like a pool ball deflecting off the edge of the table. The angle has to be such that the sound is reflected between the players and not into your neighbor's bell. The biggest obstacle to solving the delay problem is often the setup crew and/or the conductor who more often than not don't have a clue or a care about the correct positioning of horns in regards to the reflecting surface and get quite angry if you try to "educate" them. Ensembles are usually setup from the podium to back (as if the conductor is the most important) and the horns end up where they end up; the correct setup should be from the back to the front starting with the correct position for the horns. Such is the life of a hornist. Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 6:00 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because ther
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/9/2005 9:42:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A quarter of a beat is pretty extreme, and if the conductor was not complaining, and you felt like you were playing exactly with everyone else, there might be more to the problem than meets the ear. I wonder if the conductor was in on engineering the recording. Almost certainly, what was heard from the podium was not what was "heard" by the microphones. Many really fine performances can be ruined by the recording engineers. This is my personal pet peeve with quite a few recordings these days. Great performance, lousy recording. You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Well, you should agree with other sections on which zigzag of the conductors beat all should release their sound. If you play after the beat (as trombones do too often !), you will be late. Everybody has to come with the beat, which means, all have to link in with the conductors beat, feel it & play with it. Acoustically: if there is too much space between the horns & a wall behind, reflecting their sound, it might take longer for the sound to reach the mic indeed. Trying a different seating (as recommended by others) would help as well as certain sound reflectors (sound shields) well behind the horns, say some one meter or 1.5. This is a field for experiments. But how would you manage precise playing, if you had to anticipate every note ? Impossible. And if, how far apart from the other instruments would the horns be playing, as most horns tend to be a bit early anyway. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 2:00 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because there was a wide range of talents playing in this orchestra, and we were ALL behind the beat. I'm sure this has to do with the hall, and it would seem that the most obvious way to correct it would be to play a quarter of a beat ahead. I have to question if this is correct, because there were eight horn players there, and none of us thought to play ahead of the beat. Also, I have never had a teacher tell me to play ahead of the beat. Is this common practice among orchestral horn players, or is there some trick I'm missing? Would the use of special equipment (like a sound shield) help this problem, or would that be on the list of blasphemous taboos of horn playing? Thanks very much. Nick Hartman __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Hi Nick, It is really up to the conductor to fix this problem. I have had situations when I had to anticipate a bit to give the conductor what he wanted. Other times, I played along with what I heard and all was well. What I DO know is that you cannot completely trust the recording. Microphone placement is extremely crucial, and there are plenty of amateur engineers out there who do not know how to analyze a room and set up properly. A quarter of a beat is pretty extreme, and if the conductor was not complaining, and you felt like you were playing exactly with everyone else, there might be more to the problem than meets the ear. Ciao. O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:00 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because there was a wide range of talents playing in this orchestra, and we were ALL behind the beat. I'm sure this has to do with the hall, and it would seem that the most obvious way to correct it would be to play a quarter of a beat ahead. I have to question if this is correct, because there were eight horn players there, and none of us thought to play ahead of the beat. Also, I have never had a teacher tell me to play ahead of the beat. Is this common practice among orchestral horn players, or is there some trick I'm missing? Would the use of special equipment (like a sound shield) help this problem, or would that be on the list of blasphemous taboos of horn playing? Thanks very much. Nick Hartman __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Hi, Nick - I don't know about your particular situation, but I've found that it's good to have something behind the horns other than curtains, 100 percussionists, etc. My favorite place to sit is to the right of the WW's. The only downside to this is being close to the second violins. Also, for me, there are two things that are almost impossible to do. Play notes too short. Play too early. Regards, Carlberg Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because there was a wide range of talents playing in this orchestra, and we were ALL behind the beat. I'm sure this has to do with the hall, and it would seem that the most obvious way to correct it would be to play a quarter of a beat ahead. I have to question if this is correct, because there were eight horn players there, and none of us thought to play ahead of the beat. Also, I have never had a teacher tell me to play ahead of the beat. Is this common practice among orchestral horn players, or is there some trick I'm missing? Would the use of special equipment (like a sound shield) help this problem, or would that be on the list of blasphemous taboos of horn playing? Thanks very much. Nick Hartman __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
