Re: [Hornlist] language
hans wrote: My teachers were pedantic - so I am. Works very well with the horn, if one is pedantic. Attack, slurs, intonation, valve function, inserts into the music (cuts noted correctly), transposition I also am pedantic (occupational hazard?). These are, of course, some of the very things I have found most difficult on my return to the horn after fifty years, particularly transposition! Regards... Tom -- Thomas M. Spillman, Jr. Asst. Professor (retired) Information Technology MBA Program School of Management St. Edward's University Austin, TX ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
That'll teach me not to post even the most casual of comments on the hornlist without the most careful proof-reading. I did indeed leave out an a on Achaians. But Peleus is the standard English form for Peleios, at least according to the translations of West, Lattimore, Graves, Pope, Newman and Cowper. Is that enough pedantry? On 11/17/06, hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It reads Achaeans or Achaians Peleios. Nevertheless, it is not the violence, which attracts the reader, but the wonderful word melodies the word rhythm. My teachers were pedantic - so I am. Works very well with the horn, if one is pedantic. Attack, slurs, intonation, valve function, inserts into the music (cuts noted correctly), transposition === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan McCartney Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 3:47 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] language It goes something like this: Sing, o goddess, the rage of Achilles, son of Peleus, and its destruction, which brought pains upon the myriads of Achains, and cast into Hades multitudes of mighty souls of heroes, and gave their bodies to be the feast of dogs and all kinds of birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished. Iliad makes for very pleasant reading, if you like violence. Menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos, oulomenen, e muri´ Achaios alge etheke, pollas d´iphtimous psychas Aidi proiapsen eroon, autous de eloria teuche kynessin oionoisi te pasi, Dios d´eteleieto boule, ... ... roughly translates to: My aide, Peleiadeo Achileos, uses Mennen (an american aftershave) to rid himself of old algae, but his chicken and infamous pychic, Aidi, proposes macaroons on a moving lorry or automobile with onions in your pasta. God bless the boulibasse, ... kapiche? Alright then, Is somebody going to tell us thickos what it means? All the best, Lawrence (þaes ofereode, þisses swa maeg) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbc global.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/dan.g.mccartn ey%40gmail .com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
You are right, but I try to write the antic names in their original spelling, sorry, but I grew up with 9 years Lating 7 years Greek. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan McCartney Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 7:51 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] language That'll teach me not to post even the most casual of comments on the hornlist without the most careful proof-reading. I did indeed leave out an a on Achaians. But Peleus is the standard English form for Peleios, at least according to the translations of West, Lattimore, Graves, Pope, Newman and Cowper. Is that enough pedantry? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
It goes something like this: Sing, o goddess, the rage of Achilles, son of Peleus, and its destruction, which brought pains upon the myriads of Achains, and cast into Hades multitudes of mighty souls of heroes, and gave their bodies to be the feast of dogs and all kinds of birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished. Iliad makes for very pleasant reading, if you like violence. Menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos, oulomenen, e muri´ Achaios alge etheke, pollas d´iphtimous psychas Aidi proiapsen eroon, autous de eloria teuche kynessin oionoisi te pasi, Dios d´eteleieto boule, ... ... roughly translates to: My aide, Peleiadeo Achileos, uses Mennen (an american aftershave) to rid himself of old algae, but his chicken and infamous pychic, Aidi, proposes macaroons on a moving lorry or automobile with onions in your pasta. God bless the boulibasse, ... kapiche? Alright then, Is somebody going to tell us thickos what it means? All the best, Lawrence (þaes ofereode, þisses swa maeg) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbc global.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/dan.g.mccartney%40gmail.com -- Dan McCartney Prof. of New Testament Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
It reads Achaeans or Achaians Peleios. Nevertheless, it is not the violence, which attracts the reader, but the wonderful word melodies the word rhythm. My teachers were pedantic - so I am. Works very well with the horn, if one is pedantic. Attack, slurs, intonation, valve function, inserts into the music (cuts noted correctly), transposition === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan McCartney Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 3:47 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] language It goes something like this: Sing, o goddess, the rage of Achilles, son of Peleus, and its destruction, which brought pains upon the myriads of Achains, and cast into Hades multitudes of mighty souls of heroes, and gave their bodies to be the feast of dogs and all kinds of birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished. Iliad makes for very pleasant reading, if you like violence. Menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos, oulomenen, e muri´ Achaios alge etheke, pollas d´iphtimous psychas Aidi proiapsen eroon, autous de eloria teuche kynessin oionoisi te pasi, Dios d´eteleieto boule, ... ... roughly translates to: My aide, Peleiadeo Achileos, uses Mennen (an american aftershave) to rid himself of old algae, but his chicken and infamous pychic, Aidi, proposes macaroons on a moving lorry or automobile with onions in your pasta. God bless the boulibasse, ... kapiche? Alright then, Is somebody going to tell us thickos what it means? All the best, Lawrence (þaes ofereode, þisses swa maeg) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbc global.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/dan.g.mccartn ey%40gmail .com -- Dan McCartney Prof. of New Testament Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
Sorry, I just used a transcript for the Odyssey quote. It was Greek. The recent quote was Menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos, oulomenen, e muri´ Achaios alge etheke, pollas d´iphtimous psychas Aidi proiapsen eroon, autous de eloria teuche kynessin oionoisi te pasi, Dios d´eteleieto boule, ... ... I think, you will recognize the quote ... == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Spillman Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:10 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] language Dan McCartney wrote: Almost no Americans will recognize Hans' second quotation, because schools and colleges don't have students read the Odyssey any more even in ENGLISH, let alone the original Greek. We have raised ignorance to astonishing levels. ___ I agree. I have read the Odessey many times, in a number of different translations, but not in Latin. The original Greek was Greek to me! That language was always difficult for me, even when I was in Greece Regards... Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
In a message dated 14/11/2006 08:12:05 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos, oulomenen, e muri´ Achaios alge etheke, pollas d´iphtimous psychas Aidi proiapsen eroon, autous de eloria teuche kynessin oionoisi te pasi, Dios d´eteleieto boule, ... ... Alright then, Is somebody going to tell us thickos what it means? All the best, Lawrence (þaes ofereode, þisses swa maeg) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
Come sir, you reside in England, part of Europe and by definition the better educated. If this attitude continues I shall be compelled to write THE TIMES. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] [. . .] Alright then, Is somebody going to tell us thickos what it means? All the best, Lawrence (þaes ofereode, þisses swa maeg) [. . .] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos, oulomenen, e muri´ Achaios alge etheke, pollas d´iphtimous psychas Aidi proiapsen eroon, autous de eloria teuche kynessin oionoisi te pasi, Dios d´eteleieto boule, ... ... roughly translates to: My aide, Peleiadeo Achileos, uses Mennen (an american aftershave) to rid himself of old algae, but his chicken and infamous pychic, Aidi, proposes macaroons on a moving lorry or automobile with onions in your pasta. God bless the boulibasse, ... kapiche? Alright then, Is somebody going to tell us thickos what it means? All the best, Lawrence (þaes ofereode, þisses swa maeg) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
You just scored number ten in antic greek. It is the beginning of the Iliade by old Homer (not from the Simpsons - I like them very much as they reflect our society quite well !) ===) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fred Baucom Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:40 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] language Menin aeide thea Peleiadeo Achileos, oulomenen, e muri´ Achaios alge etheke, pollas d´iphtimous psychas Aidi proiapsen eroon, autous de eloria teuche kynessin oionoisi te pasi, Dios d´eteleieto boule, ... ... roughly translates to: My aide, Peleiadeo Achileos, uses Mennen (an american aftershave) to rid himself of old algae, but his chicken and infamous pychic, Aidi, proposes macaroons on a moving lorry or automobile with onions in your pasta. God bless the boulibasse, ... kapiche? Alright then, Is somebody going to tell us thickos what it means? All the best, Lawrence (þaes ofereode, þisses swa maeg) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbc global.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language, NHR
message: 18 date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:02:08 -0500 from: martin bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] Language, NHR N.H.R. Not quibbling, but it's nit pick (as in picking small parasites or lice [a.k.a. nits] from one's skin, also seen in simian grooming) and ebonics as in the colour ebony, in relation to the ridiculous attempt to formally integrate, categorize and legitimize (as well as win academic approval for) as a bona fide evolution of the english language, the various slang terms used by African americans, into the Queen's english. A quibble: if Queen and African deserve capitals, don't English and American too? :-) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the current fad in the US to refer to any wind instrument as a horn. It's mainly used with s*x*ph*n*s. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:57 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] language [. . .] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Language
All this tawk about language is getting me bawd. I'm goin down to the staw and get me a soder. Regards, Joe -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Smith Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:59 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Language I hate to knit pick, but this one does not fall on the younger generation. The people in this country who are really ruining the language are sports announcers (yikes!!!), talking heads and politicians (remember eubonics?). Young people are always messing with the language. Some of it sticks and some doesn't. Sincerely, Wendell Rider It's not just the sports announcers. Listen to the local broadcast news in any market. It's full of disjunct phrases, colloquialisms, redundancies, and dumbed down vocabulary and grammar. They use trendy mispronunciations (tore instead of tour and holloween instead of halloween come quickly to mind) What's worse, I'm not sure the practitioners even know that they are doing anything wrong. They are probably have been taught to be broadcasters rather than writers and think they are just making language relevant. Remember when Dizzy Dean got into trouble for slud? Times have certainly changed. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/joescarpelli%40earthlink.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
A recent survey says that out of 12.000 FBI agents trained in Arabic language not a single one could speak the language as well as a native speaker. Out of 1400 agents trained in foreign language profieciently, 900 spoke Spanish, but the remaining 500 should cover the whole world ? But these were special trained people. So no wonder about misunderstandings abundant. And these kind of professionals would represent the whole people improportionally anyway How about the rest of the population ? How about the hornlist ? Who can write letters, quality letters (admitted with syntax mistakes occasionally - like myself), in one foreign language, who can write it in two foreign languages, who can write speak two or more languages besides his or her mother language (or father language - depending on the point-of-view) fluently, who can even read languages in different script (greek e.g. or Russian or chinese or japanese or thai or Sanskrit or else) or very old scripts handwritings. Or who can just communicate in more languages than the mothers or fathers language ? Even communicating helps a lot for the understanding each other for world friendship peace. Would be very interesting to know about, as it widens ones horizon. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:00 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] language I'm surprised no one has mentioned the current fad in the US to refer to any wind instrument as a horn. It's mainly used with s*x*ph*n*s. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:57 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] language [. . .] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
At one time I was some what conversant in Spanish, both written and spoken. Due to lack of practice I can only claim limited knowledge of my native language, English. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:01 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] language [. . .] Would be very interesting to know about, as it widens ones horizon. = [. . .] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Language, NHR
Martin Bender wrote: N.H.R. Not quibbling, but it's nit pick (as in picking small parasites or lice [a.k.a. nits] from one's skin, also seen in simian grooming) and ebonics as in the colour ebony, in relation to the ridiculous attempt to formally integrate, categorize and legitimize (as well as win academic approval for) as a bona fide evolution of the english language, the various slang terms used by African americans, into the Queen's english. Best regards, Martin Bender Quibble all you like. :) I looked it up, and it has become a single word, at least according to the two dictionaries I looked at online. Nit is also listed separately, and I'm reasonably sure using it as two words would be considered acceptable usage (which I prefer to spell as useage but that's just me). If you Google nit pick, Google will suggest that you've made a mistake and bring up listings for nitpick instead, so perhaps the two-word version is no longer much in use; I don't really know. (I could have used a dash instead of a semi-colon - or a semicolon - there but I prefer the latter.) Ah, Inglisch! -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Hans wrote: A recent survey says that out of 12.000 FBI agents trained in Arabic language not a single one could speak the language as well as a native speaker. Out of 1400 agents trained in foreign language profieciently, 900 spoke Spanish, but the remaining 500 should cover the whole world ? But these were special trained people. So no wonder about misunderstandings abundant. And these kind of professionals would represent the whole people improportionally anyway How about the rest of the population ? How about the hornlist ? Who can write letters, quality letters (admitted with syntax mistakes occasionally - like myself), in one foreign language, who can write it in two foreign languages, who can write speak two or more languages besides his or her mother language (or father language - depending on the point-of-view) fluently, who can even read languages in different script (greek e.g. or Russian or chinese or japanese or thai or Sanskrit or else) or very old scripts handwritings. Or who can just communicate in more languages than the mothers or fathers language ? Even communicating helps a lot for the understanding each other for world friendship peace. Would be very interesting to know about, as it widens ones horizon. Hans, I was luckily enough to live in The Netherlands for almost five years while I was working for my company as a Systems Engineering Manager for a Dutch client. We lived in Schevenigen on the North Sea, which is a popular destination for a horde of German tourists each summer. We had the opportunity to visit much of Western Europe while we were there, and we regularly listened to European radio and watched European TV, both in English (BBC and ITV) and a number of other languages (Dutch, French and German, primarily, although the Dutch regularly broadcast movies in their original language). As a result to all of that exposure, plus the conviction that if I visit another country I shouldn't necessarily expect them to be able to speak my language, I picked up what I call survival language skills in a number of languages. I can survive in French (although I am hampered by the fact that my French instructor at the University of Missouri had never HAD to speak French to survive, so I still have remnants of his appalling French accent), Italian (largely self taught through the tapes and CDs that are readily available now), Spanish (due largely to the ready availability of language exposure here from all of our illegal immigrants), and Dutch. At one time (almost twenty years since I was last there!) I was fairly fluent in Dutch, but lack of exposure and daily usage has caused me to lose most of my ability. My survival level skills include: being able to order a meal, ask directions, carry on SIMPLE conversations and the like. I will usually do a short review before we leave home. I will usually ask if they speak English, in their language first, rather than impose my poor skills on them.I will only tr their language only if they claim not to understand mine. Of course, several times found in Paris, I found that if I attempted to speak French, they would often switch to English rather than listen to my appalling French accent! I found, interestingly enough, that I could get by in Germany speaking Dutch. I have the impression that they're rather like Spanish and Portuguese: similar, but certainly not the same. Often, the sound is closer than the spelling, e.g., in German Guten Abend and in Dutch Goeden avond. I have never been misunderstood in Germany if I wish someone Goeden avond! As is often the case I can understand a language better than I can speak it. I can remember many days when I was first learning Dutch when I would be talking to a Dutch manager in English and he talked to me in Dutch and we understood each other. We both had the same problem, apparently. I also like to cook and I found that with my survival level skills and a good dictionary, I can usually read cookbooks in that language, e.g., one I'm reading now is Wiener Süßspeisen by Eduard Meyer. Most Americans, me included, have little ability in languages other than English. I attribute it to several factors, but I think the most important is our relative isolation be geography from the rest of the world. I suppose, I could always use the standard American approach to communication: if we speak slowly enough and loudly enough, anyone should be able to understand us!! Regards... Tom (who is starting his third year back as a horn player after a fifty year layoff and who was told by his horn teacher that he was beginning to play again at an age when most have retired!) -- Thomas M. Spillman, Jr. Asst. Professor (retired) Information Technology MBA Program School of Management St. Edward's University Austin, TX ___
Re: [Hornlist] language
In re-reading what I just posted, I found also that my proof reading abilities are about as bad as my writing abilities! Please excuse the wide variety of spelling and grammatical errors! Regards... Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
Hello Tom, Nice letter, nice area where you live, a bit exposed to storms, but quite close to El Alamo River Walk with nice steak houses at reasonable prices. I learned Hochdeutsch from my mother clear Austrian colored (vocables) German from my grandma my father in school, but learned Latin, Greek (classical) English in school, but acquired Italian when working in Venice, Torino, Genova, Naples, Catania many, many times, basic Japanese some Thai by myself, but can also communicate in Castellano Portuguese (Carioca) (was a marriage related issue) French can read German handwritings back until 1500 or so, but I am totally lost with the Slavic languages. Reading: Greek, Cyrillic (slow, very slow, rather decipher), Thai some chinese characters. That is plenty enough for the moment, but might expect something new in the future perhaps. Ooops, I forgot that I can read trebble, alto - bass clef plus transposition in any key - fluently. Hans, I was luckily enough to live in The Netherlands for almost five years while I was working for my company as a Systems Engineering Manager for a Dutch client. We lived in Schevenigen on the North Sea, which is a popular destination for a horde of German tourists each summer. We had the opportunity to visit much of Western Europe while we were there, and we regularly listened to European radio and watched European TV, both in English (BBC and ITV) and a number of other languages (Dutch, French and German, primarily, although the Dutch regularly broadcast movies in their original language). As a result to all of that exposure, plus the conviction that if I visit another country I shouldn't necessarily expect them to be able to speak my language, I picked up what I call survival language skills in a number of languages. I can survive in French (although I am hampered by the fact that my French instructor at the University of Missouri had never HAD to speak French to survive, so I still have remnants of his appalling French accent), Italian (largely self taught through the tapes and CDs that are readily available now), Spanish (due largely to the ready availability of language exposure here from all of our illegal immigrants), and Dutch. At one time (almost twenty years since I was last there!) I was fairly fluent in Dutch, but lack of exposure and daily usage has caused me to lose most of my ability. My survival level skills include: being able to order a meal, ask directions, carry on SIMPLE conversations and the like. I will usually do a short review before we leave home. I will usually ask if they speak English, in their language first, rather than impose my poor skills on them.I will only tr their language only if they claim not to understand mine. Of course, several times found in Paris, I found that if I attempted to speak French, they would often switch to English rather than listen to my appalling French accent! I found, interestingly enough, that I could get by in Germany speaking Dutch. I have the impression that they're rather like Spanish and Portuguese: similar, but certainly not the same. Often, the sound is closer than the spelling, e.g., in German Guten Abend and in Dutch Goeden avond. I have never been misunderstood in Germany if I wish someone Goeden avond! As is often the case I can understand a language better than I can speak it. I can remember many days when I was first learning Dutch when I would be talking to a Dutch manager in English and he talked to me in Dutch and we understood each other. We both had the same problem, apparently. I also like to cook and I found that with my survival level skills and a good dictionary, I can usually read cookbooks in that language, e.g., one I'm reading now is Wiener Süßspeisen by Eduard Meyer. Most Americans, me included, have little ability in languages other than English. I attribute it to several factors, but I think the most important is our relative isolation be geography from the rest of the world. I suppose, I could always use the standard American approach to communication: if we speak slowly enough and loudly enough, anyone should be able to understand us!! Regards... Tom (who is starting his third year back as a horn player after a fifty year layoff and who was told by his horn teacher that he was beginning to play again at an age when most have retired!) -- Thomas M. Spillman, Jr. Asst. Professor (retired) Information Technology MBA Program School of Management St. Edward's University Austin, TX ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Hans, What a nice reply! Luckily, I have spent most my life in stormy areas, including a 3,000 mile trip my wife and I took with a British friend in a 33' sailboat from Hull in Yorkshire to Lanzarote in the Canaries. When we crossed the Bay of Biscay, we ran into a bit of rough weather which caused us to heave-to for an hour or so to get away from the pounding. We later found out we had gone through the weakened latter part of a hurricane. OTOH, it was quite pleasant after we left Lisbon on the way to the Canaries. I have heard Dutch described as Plattdeutsch. I imagine that you can tell me if that is correct or not. FWIW, I have been amazed by how close Frisian is to English. Like you, the Slavic languages and Greek are incomprehensible to me. I can slowly decipher the Greek words into Latin type from my scientific courses at University but that doesn't help me a lot. I had Latin as part of my instruction, before I went off to the first of my various universities. I didn't appreciate how much it would come in handy while I was studying it. I wish I had worked harder to understand it. About all I can remember is Gallia est divisa in partes tres (sp?). While I was in the Navy during the Korean War I spent some time in Japan and learned a little Japanese. For me, the kana scripts (katakana and Hiragana) are fairly easy to learn, but Kanji is quite difficult for me. At one time I knew perhaps 3,000 characters. However, considering 5,000, or so, is needed to read an average newspaper and most third graders know more, I haven't accomplished much. Considering my interest in food, I have a book you MIGHT be interested in. I have found it very handy when I go to Chinese restaurants: The Eater's Guide to Chinese Characters by James D. McCawley University of Chicago Press, Chicago and London 1984 It is primarily concerned with reading and understanding menus and I have enjoyed it thoroughly. It is still available here, but I imagine you can find a copy at Foyles in London, or any of a number of other sources if you're interested. See: *http://tinyurl.com/yfy6ts *Regards... Tom* * hans wrote: Hello Tom, Nice letter, nice area where you live, a bit exposed to storms, but quite close to El Alamo River Walk with nice steak houses at reasonable prices. I learned Hochdeutsch from my mother clear Austrian colored (vocables) German from my grandma my father in school, but learned Latin, Greek (classical) English in school, but acquired Italian when working in Venice, Torino, Genova, Naples, Catania many, many times, basic Japanese some Thai by myself, but can also communicate in Castellano Portuguese (Carioca) (was a marriage related issue) French can read German handwritings back until 1500 or so, but I am totally lost with the Slavic languages. Reading: Greek, Cyrillic (slow, very slow, rather decipher), Thai some chinese characters. That is plenty enough for the moment, but might expect something new in the future perhaps. Ooops, I forgot that I can read trebble, alto - bass clef plus transposition in any key - fluently. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
I do remember quarum unum incolunt Belgae, qui fortissimi sunt which is, of course, the continuation of what I wrote. I don't remember your second quotation (too many years since those days?). A number of languages are complaining about the poco a poco changes and increased use of Anglicisms. The French, in particular, have been trying to purge their language for years, with only minimal success. Le drugstore and le weekend seem to be firmly established. The Japanese have them as well, but often use only the first half of an English word. We found when we were in The Netherlands that they used computer manuals in English, typically from IBM, rather than having Dutch equivalents. The Dutch also have imported a number of Foreign words directly into their language, particularly French words. They may or may not change to spelling so it looks Dutch, but again when you hear it you will know where it came from, e.g., cadeautje (little gift) for cadeaux or krant for courant. I must admit, and it certainly makes it easier for me, English seems to be the new lingua franca of the world. Everywhere I've been, there are usually English translations readily available, even in Greece. I think it is at least partially because we do so very poorly in other languages, unlike the Dutch. Most of the younger generation speaks at least three other languages besides Dutch before going on to University. I asked a Dutch friend about this and he said it was because they had a small country and who would want to learn Dutch? It makes the language difficult to learn. When we were there, whenever they heard my strong American accent they would IMMEDIATELY switch to English. Regards... Tom hans wrote: Quarum unum incolunt Belgae, qui fortissimi sunt .. Or do you remember Andra moi eneppe muso polytropon hos mala polla .. - do you remember. Yes, Plattdeutsch is very similar to Dutch. We learned Althochdeutsch Mittelhochdeutsch, both very similar to Dutch, but they are the ancestor languages of Hochdeutsch, which is disappearing poco a poco by the bad influence of the many unnecessary Anglism, while the very useful technical English is not understood anyway. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Language
Dizzy Dean? Any takers on the number of folks on this list, US alone, who remember that name? There was a well known band director in what was the old Southwest Conference who on more than one occasion at rehearsal was heard to murmur, think, thank, thunk. . . stink, stank, stunk. Then again, if you haven't heard what the folks in Oz have done to the Queens's English you really should. Those folks really know how to have fun with language. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wendell Rider Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:38 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Language [. . .] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language
Bill Gross wrote: Dizzy Dean? Any takers on the number of folks on this list, US alone, who remember that name? Here's one! I remember when he and his brother pitched for the old St. Louis Cardinals, before he became an announcer. It's probably because my father was a big fan of his. They were both big boned, raw country kids who had moved to the big city during the depression. My father also became friends with Enos Slaughter and he was a frequent visitor to our house when I was a teenager. Regards... Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Language
Next question, what was his bother's name? -Original Message- [. . .] Here's one! I remember when he and his brother pitched for the old St. Louis Cardinals, before he became an announcer. [. . .] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language
Bill Gross wrote: Next question, what was his bother's name? Paul. They were Dizzy and Daffy. I was a big fan of the Cardinals when I was growing up in St. Louis in the 1930's and 1940's. I was a member of the knothole gang which gave kids free admission to games, so I could, conceivably, go see a major league game for less than a dollar: $0.20 cents for round trip street car fare and perhaps a hot dog and a small drink and a box of Cracker Jack. Regards... Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Language
I met the brothers when I was a Cub Scout in Dallas. They moved here after retiring and came to one of our meetings. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Spillman Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:25 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Language Bill Gross wrote: Next question, what was his bother's name? Paul. They were Dizzy and Daffy. I was a big fan of the Cardinals when I was growing up in St. Louis in the 1930's and 1940's. I was a member of the knothole gang which gave kids free admission to games, so I could, conceivably, go see a major league game for less than a dollar: $0.20 cents for round trip street car fare and perhaps a hot dog and a small drink and a box of Cracker Jack. Regards... Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language
On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Bill Gross wrote: Next question, what was his bother's name? -Original Message- [. . .] Here's one! I remember when he and his brother pitched for the old St. Louis Cardinals, before he became an announcer. Well, let's see; the brother was Paul Dean, better known as Daffy Dean. Diz and Daf! Old whatziz name, Paul Mansur ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Hornlist Language
Having spent a full scholastic year abroad, I am fully fluent (yes, even near-native) in French. Upon completion of my B.A. in French, I was fortunate enough to spend two years in an M.A. program in the French department of Indiana University. There, part of my formation included studying 4 other languages, leaving me proficient in Spanish, able to survive in Italian and German, and barely capable of deciphering the dead language of Latin. That said, I am now a high school English teacher (who plays the horn for fun only with a colleague) with a broad linguistic and historical background that I am able to pass onto my students, whether or not they want it. Knowing that, for those who are interested in language, there is a fabulous book written by Jean Aitchison that poses an age old question: Language Change: Progress or Decay? Since this seems to be the root of much of what is being discussed in terms of language here, I highly recommend that those of you intellectuals who care to be stimulated by a linguistic version of Which came first, the chicken or the egg?. On a side note, the discussion regarding Ebonics was a little off, in terms of its linguistic nature. The passing of the law recognized, and tried to legitimatize, a dialect of English. Ebonics is now recognized among sociolinguistics and others as AAVE, or African American Vernacular English. Whether or not mainstream, primarily Western Europeans like it, AAVE is a legitimate dialect, with definite syntactic patterns that repeat throughout its use. The question, as always, is whether or not to accept it as a norm. Since Standard American English is a standard that no one ever truly reaches, it is understandable that some would choose to search for another, more reachable standard. Having said that, it is my job as an English teacher to recognize the laziness of my students, the desire to do only that which is easy, and urge them to stretch themselves. I try to do this every day, and in the process, I like to think that I better my usage, as well. For those really looking for a trip when it comes to change in language, be sure to read up on the New Zealand's recent decision to allow so called text-speak as admissible in its exams. I have included the link below. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/11/11/nz.text.ap/index.html Thank you so kindly for allowing an amateur to throw her two cents in. Happy playing and studying to all! Kind regards, Megan - Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language
Bill Gross wrote: Next question, what was his bother's name? Paul. Dizzy and Daffy. (And their French cousin Goufee) :) Richard Smith ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language
Paul. They were Dizzy and Daffy. I was a big fan of the Cardinals when I was growing up in St. Louis in the 1930's and 1940's. I was a member of the knothole gang which gave kids free admission to games, so I could, conceivably, go see a major league game for less than a dollar: $0.20 cents for round trip street car fare and perhaps a hot dog and a small drink and a box of Cracker Jack. Sorry. I should have read the rest of the mail before answering. My father had an offer from that team. He didn't think he was good enough so he turned them down to go to school (University of Oklahoma). When he was 50, he could still pitch better than any high school kid I played against. Richard Smith ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language - Now TOTALLY NHR, must be a slow news day
In a message dated 11/13/2006 3:32:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I met the brothers when I was a Cub Scout in Dallas. They moved here after retiring and came to one of our meetings. --- Good thing you didn't tell them you were a scout for the Cubs. There has always been some pretty bad blood between the Cubs and the Cards. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited Cubs Fan - ha! bet that starts a big fight over something completely, utterly non-related to horn. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Almost no Americans will recognize Hans' second quotation, because schools and colleges don't have students read the Odyssey any more even in ENGLISH, let alone the original Greek. We have raised ignorance to astonishing levels. On 11/13/06, Tom Spillman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do remember quarum unum incolunt Belgae, qui fortissimi sunt which is, of course, the continuation of what I wrote. I don't remember your second quotation (too many years since those days?). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language
Yes, I remember Dizzy and his brother, Daffy Dean very well with the St. Louis Cardinals, and later when Dizzy tried to be a sports announcer. The current use of the redundant where it's at phrase reminds me of my mother's reaction each time she heard anyone use it. I think the sports announcers are the most guilty ones who are in a position to influence sloppy English. Pete Exline ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Dan McCartney wrote: Almost no Americans will recognize Hans' second quotation, because schools and colleges don't have students read the Odyssey any more even in ENGLISH, let alone the original Greek. We have raised ignorance to astonishing levels. ___ I agree. I have read the Odessey many times, in a number of different translations, but not in Latin. The original Greek was Greek to me! That language was always difficult for me, even when I was in Greece Regards... Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
The verb to see has taken on a much broader meaning in American English. It has begun to mean to understand to observe and even to hear; things not having to do with the sense of sight. As the world is continually becoming more visual and less about listening, particularly in the U.S.A., it is an understandable albeit regrettable vernacular evolution. I frequently point this out to my students when they tell me they have seen a concert. I always respond How did it look? Nevertheless, despite my personal pedagogical efforts, obnoxious though they be, with the young people in my charge, I remain well aware that the more a word is used in a particular way, the more it redefines itself. With this in mind, I would never think to correct a colleague in a public forum. I would be rude of me. Orlando -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 1:49 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Patterson leadpipe Sorry, Luke, does it matter what results you have seen ? I thought what you heard would be more important ? = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 11:02 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Patterson leadpipe Has anyone had a Patterson leadpipe installed on a Paxman Model 20? If so, what results have you seen? My son's Paxman needs a new pipe. Can anyone recommend anything else? Luke Zyla 2nd horn, WV Symphony www.wvsymphony.org ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Pandolfi, Orlando wrote: The verb to see has taken on a much broader meaning in American English. It has begun to mean to understand to observe and even to hear Which is why I prefer to grok. No misunderstanding there. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Jerry Houston wrote: Which is why I prefer to grok. No misunderstanding there. ___ Really!?? What does it mean?? :) Richard Smith ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] language
Richard Smith wrote: Jerry Houston wrote: Which is why I prefer to grok. No misunderstanding there. ___ Really!?? What does it mean?? :) Never read Heinlein, eh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
What most people fail to note is that GLORY ROAD followed STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jerry Houston Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:06 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] language Richard Smith wrote: Jerry Houston wrote: Which is why I prefer to grok. No misunderstanding there. ___ Really!?? What does it mean?? :) Never read Heinlein, eh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language
I hate to knit pick, but this one does not fall on the younger generation. The people in this country who are really ruining the language are sports announcers (yikes!!!), talking heads and politicians (remember eubonics?). Young people are always messing with the language. Some of it sticks and some doesn't. Sincerely, Wendell Rider It's not just the sports announcers. Listen to the local broadcast news in any market. It's full of disjunct phrases, colloquialisms, redundancies, and dumbed down vocabulary and grammar. They use trendy mispronunciations (tore instead of tour and holloween instead of halloween come quickly to mind) What's worse, I'm not sure the practitioners even know that they are doing anything wrong. They are probably have been taught to be broadcasters rather than writers and think they are just making language relevant. Remember when Dizzy Dean got into trouble for slud? Times have certainly changed. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Language, NHR
N.H.R. Not quibbling, but it's nit pick (as in picking small parasites or lice [a.k.a. nits] from one's skin, also seen in simian grooming) and ebonics as in the colour ebony, in relation to the ridiculous attempt to formally integrate, categorize and legitimize (as well as win academic approval for) as a bona fide evolution of the english language, the various slang terms used by African americans, into the Queen's english. Best regards, Martin Bender On 12-Nov-06, at 9:37 PM, Wendell Rider wrote: On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message: 7 date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 11:54:31 -0500 from: Pandolfi, Orlando [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: RE: [Hornlist] language The verb to see has taken on a much broader meaning in American English. It has begun to mean to understand to observe and even to hear; things not having to do with the sense of sight. As the world is continually becoming more visual and less about listening, particularly in the U.S.A., it is an understandable albeit regrettable vernacular evolution. I frequently point this out to my students when they tell me they have seen a concert. I always respond How did it look? Nevertheless, despite my personal pedagogical efforts, obnoxious though they be, with the young people in my charge, I remain well aware that the more a word is used in a particular way, the more it redefines itself. With this in mind, I would never think to correct a colleague in a public forum. I would be rude of me. Orlando Hi all, I like to grok things too. How many of our young listers know that one? Actually, to see has a long history of meaning beyond the obvious. It goes back way before any of us were born and is perfectly proper in many situations. Check your dictionary. I hate to knit pick, but this one does not fall on the younger generation. The people in this country who are really ruining the language are sports announcers (yikes!!!), talking heads and politicians (remember eubonics?). Young people are always messing with the language. Some of it sticks and some doesn't. Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, Real World Horn Playing, the Summer Seminar and Internet Horn Lessons go to my website: www.wendellworld.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/embee%40magma.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] language
Orlando, the same happen here also. People gop into the shop ask like: Give me this or two (pieces) of that or how much is that green ?. It is a sign of mental impoverishment, nothing else. Horn is another expression of mental impoverishment if it is used for all kind of instruments, not excluding even a stringed bass. As we relatively mature people, with (then still) Appropriate education, can be examples for the many young people on this list or on other lists, we should not hesitate, to point them to the correct less simplificating thus impoverishing way of expressing thoughts communicate with others. Simplification degrading language leads to discrimination radicalism worse -isms because it paves the way for misunderstandings. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pandolfi, Orlando Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 5:55 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] language The verb to see has taken on a much broader meaning in American English. It has begun to mean to understand to observe and even to hear; things not having to do with the sense of sight. As the world is continually becoming more visual and less about listening, particularly in the U.S.A., it is an understandable albeit regrettable vernacular evolution. I frequently point this out to my students when they tell me they have seen a concert. I always respond How did it look? Nevertheless, despite my personal pedagogical efforts, obnoxious though they be, with the young people in my charge, I remain well aware that the more a word is used in a particular way, the more it redefines itself. With this in mind, I would never think to correct a colleague in a public forum. I would be rude of me. Orlando -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] u] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 1:49 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Patterson leadpipe Sorry, Luke, does it matter what results you have seen ? I thought what you heard would be more important ? = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 11:02 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Patterson leadpipe Has anyone had a Patterson leadpipe installed on a Paxman Model 20? If so, what results have you seen? My son's Paxman needs a new pipe. Can anyone recommend anything else? Luke Zyla 2nd horn, WV Symphony www.wvsymphony.org ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40de erfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
