RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Hans Pizka wrote: > This is the wrong conclusion or logic. Etudes are written for > a single instrument as are the cello suites. There are no > objection to do them on another instrument. Most duets fit > for a multitude of combinations. But a very colourful string > plus soloist(s) piece should not be played with the piano as > a substitute for the strings. All the fine colours will be > missed & the character of the piece be altered too much. Ah, now we get closer to the heart of the matter with Hans pointing out that transcriptions are neither right nor wrong but depend, first and foremost, on the piece being transcribed. I have been a guitarist for many years, and guitarists probably play more transcribed music than most. Some of those transcriptions work beautifully, others are so-so, and some are just disasters. It really depends on the piece of music in question and how much that piece depends on the unique characteristics of the instrument for which is was originally composed. (There is a lot of wonderful Baroque and earlier music that transcribes nicely for the guitar, a lot of 20th-century music that is written in a wonderfully idiomatic manner for the guitar, e.g., by Villa-Lobos, but almost no music by the big names of the Classical and Romantic eras, although there is plenty by arguably "second tier" composers such as Sor. It's when people start doing things like transcribing Brahms for the guitar that the trouble begins.) -S- > > === > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Steve Haflich > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 5:32 AM > To: The Horn List > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! > >From: "hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Yes, Howard, flaming begins: > >Doing the "Serenade" with piano accompaniment instead of the >strings is a perfect "sacrileg" as it ruins the music >perfectly. Britten and Hindemith as well are known for their >perfect taste for instrument colours. > > Following this logic to its logical conclusion means that one > ought not play Kopprasch on a double horn. Ruins the exercise. > > == > > Sorry, Hans, I'm just kidding. Although I am presently > working through the Bach Cello Suites using only F horn, > playing as I always do on one of your mouthpieces... > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. > de > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays > computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
This is the wrong conclusion or logic. Etudes are written for a single instrument as are the cello suites. There are no objection to do them on another instrument. Most duets fit for a multitude of combinations. But a very colourful string plus soloist(s) piece should not be played with the piano as a substitute for the strings. All the fine colours will be missed & the character of the piece be altered too much. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Haflich Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 5:32 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! From: "hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes, Howard, flaming begins: Doing the "Serenade" with piano accompaniment instead of the strings is a perfect "sacrileg" as it ruins the music perfectly. Britten and Hindemith as well are known for their perfect taste for instrument colours. Following this logic to its logical conclusion means that one ought not play Kopprasch on a double horn. Ruins the exercise. == Sorry, Hans, I'm just kidding. Although I am presently working through the Bach Cello Suites using only F horn, playing as I always do on one of your mouthpieces... ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
From: "hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes, Howard, flaming begins: Doing the "Serenade" with piano accompaniment instead of the strings is a perfect "sacrileg" as it ruins the music perfectly. Britten and Hindemith as well are known for their perfect taste for instrument colours. Following this logic to its logical conclusion means that one ought not play Kopprasch on a double horn. Ruins the exercise. == Sorry, Hans, I'm just kidding. Although I am presently working through the Bach Cello Suites using only F horn, playing as I always do on one of your mouthpieces... ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Hello Howard, Strauss 1 was written as horn & piano piece first & orchestrated later even Strauss had some orchestration instructions left in the piano score. Strauss no.2 is different. He had sketched it for the two pianos as an alternative. Sawallisch completed this. But the second piano has not much to do. I did this version also in a Japanese Horn Society meeting 1988. I do not think, that this version is available or will ever be available. Yes, Johannes Ritzkowsky gave both pieces a superb presentation which is captured on disc fortunately. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Sanner Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 4:47 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! Hans Pizka rightly wonders: > > Howard, than I ask why these folks select this piece for the recital > ??? Probably because their teacher assigns it. I don't know how it is anywhere these days, but in the U.S. when I was in school, your teacher assigned EVERYTHING you played, and there was little room for student preference. Recital programs, like lesson assignments, were essentially handed down by the teacher, and followed whatever requirements the school had for recitals (e.g., length, style periods that had to be included, number of "major" works to be played). Believe me, I'm on your side about performing these pieces with piano. With very few exceptions I don't think they work. Classical concertos, especially the Mozarts, IMHO just sound bad with piano, never mind the other problems (e.g., the choice between obliterating the form because of truncating the ritornello or boring the audience to tears by playing the whole ritornello on an instrument for which it couldn't be less suited). There are plenty of works originally written for horn and piano that should be heard more often, and that would be better recital fodder. I wondered if Strauss 1 might be an exception. After all, Strauss said it was a concerto for horn with piano or orchestra. So I bought your near neighbor Johannes Ritzkowsky's recording of it with Sawallisch tickling the ivories. I didn't find it too convincing with piano accompaniment. In fact, I liked the two piano accompaniment to Strauss 2 better, which surprised me because Strauss 2 has many more colorful effects, especially in the woodwinds. Herr Ritzkowsky's playing, in both (live) performances, is magnificent! Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Howard Sanner: There are plenty of works originally written for horn and piano that should be heard more often, and that would be better recital fodder. Absolutely! Those students ought to be playing my horn sonata! David Lamb in Seattle ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Thanks for the kind words, but I think you meant Brain rather than Britten. When people ask me to talk about my having studied with Dennis Brain, I have a problem. That was more than sixty years ago, and frankly I have little recollection about specifics. Mostly I remember what a friendly and unassuming person he was who happened to play horn like no one else I had ever heard. I had written about the time I had studied with him for (I think) Jack Dressler for the IHS meeting that was held at the University of North Texas (then North Texas State University) in (I think 1991) and which was read in my absence by him during one of the sessions. Incidentally, I remember his birthday since it is identical with mine (except he was five years older). That meant that I was nineteen years old and he had not yet reached 25. As I said he was a great person and I wish only that I had been advanced enough with my technique so that I could have benefitted more from his great musical (as well as technical) genius. I recently read on one of the lists a message from a person who had just turned 80 and who wanted to sell his horn. I had tried to sell my horn several times, but just couldn't bring myself to get rid of it, so when I turned 80 in May, decided to start studying again after a hiatus of about twenty years. I'm lucky to be living in Denton Texas, the home of the University of North Texas's College of Music and have started studying with its horn professor, Bill Scharnberg, who is, as you know, the current editor of the Horn Call. So maybe I'll just ask him about your suggestion at my next lesson. Again, thanks for the kind words. Ed >>> Howard Sanner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/25/2006 10:53 AM >>> Edwin Glick writes: > > I can't positively answer that question, but in the winter of 1946, I > studied with Dennis Brain at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in > London as part of the Army's postwar education program. You really ought to write this up for the Horn Call. Britten had few students, period, and few of them could have been as articulate as you. > You're right, > Howard, his horn was exactly as you described it. I doubt that, at that > time, he played anything on a B-flat horn (or with a B-flat crook), > however, because one of the first things he asked me to do at my first > lesson, was to play only on the F side. (At that time, my horn was an > army-issue Conn, probably a 6D). It wasn't until I returned to Boston in > June 1946, and resumed studies with my first horn teacher, Max Shapiro > (father of the Boston Symphony's Harry Shapiro), that I went back to > using the full double horn. I think he must have at least played Hymn with a B-flat crook. That low F at the end is really in tune, it doesn't sound like he's lipping it to the bottom of the slot, and it's too open sounding to have been ultra-covered. This is just my opinion, based on listening to the recording; I have no evidence of any kind to support it. I'll send a CD of this recording, transferred from the 78s, to a reasonable number of interested parties if they contact me offlist with their snail mail addresses and are patient. (I get to define "reasonable number.") It's a magnificent performance by any standard. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/glick%40unt.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Edwin Glick writes: > I can't positively answer that question, but in the winter of 1946, I studied with Dennis Brain at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in London as part of the Army's postwar education program. You really ought to write this up for the Horn Call. Britten had few students, period, and few of them could have been as articulate as you. You're right, Howard, his horn was exactly as you described it. I doubt that, at that time, he played anything on a B-flat horn (or with a B-flat crook), however, because one of the first things he asked me to do at my first lesson, was to play only on the F side. (At that time, my horn was an army-issue Conn, probably a 6D). It wasn't until I returned to Boston in June 1946, and resumed studies with my first horn teacher, Max Shapiro (father of the Boston Symphony's Harry Shapiro), that I went back to using the full double horn. I think he must have at least played Hymn with a B-flat crook. That low F at the end is really in tune, it doesn't sound like he's lipping it to the bottom of the slot, and it's too open sounding to have been ultra-covered. This is just my opinion, based on listening to the recording; I have no evidence of any kind to support it. I'll send a CD of this recording, transferred from the 78s, to a reasonable number of interested parties if they contact me offlist with their snail mail addresses and are patient. (I get to define "reasonable number.") It's a magnificent performance by any standard. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Hans Pizka rightly wonders: > Howard, than I ask why these folks select this piece for the recital ??? Probably because their teacher assigns it. I don't know how it is anywhere these days, but in the U.S. when I was in school, your teacher assigned EVERYTHING you played, and there was little room for student preference. Recital programs, like lesson assignments, were essentially handed down by the teacher, and followed whatever requirements the school had for recitals (e.g., length, style periods that had to be included, number of "major" works to be played). Believe me, I'm on your side about performing these pieces with piano. With very few exceptions I don't think they work. Classical concertos, especially the Mozarts, IMHO just sound bad with piano, never mind the other problems (e.g., the choice between obliterating the form because of truncating the ritornello or boring the audience to tears by playing the whole ritornello on an instrument for which it couldn't be less suited). There are plenty of works originally written for horn and piano that should be heard more often, and that would be better recital fodder. I wondered if Strauss 1 might be an exception. After all, Strauss said it was a concerto for horn with piano or orchestra. So I bought your near neighbor Johannes Ritzkowsky's recording of it with Sawallisch tickling the ivories. I didn't find it too convincing with piano accompaniment. In fact, I liked the two piano accompaniment to Strauss 2 better, which surprised me because Strauss 2 has many more colorful effects, especially in the woodwinds. Herr Ritzkowsky's playing, in both (live) performances, is magnificent! Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
I covered the last low f (concert Bb), when I played the serenade on my Viennese & it did not lose anything of the quality as the Hymn must be played with outmost delicacy anyway, light, soft, like a hush-hush-rush. And fingering is much easier on the F-horn anyway. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edwin Glick Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:53 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! I can't positively answer that question, but in the winter of 1946, I studied with Dennis Brain at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in London as part of the Army's postwar education program. You're right, Howard, his horn was exactly as you described it. I doubt that, at that time, he played anything on a B-flat horn (or with a B-flat crook), however, because one of the first things he asked me to do at my first lesson, was to play only on the F side. (At that time, my horn was an army-issue Conn, probably a 6D). It wasn't until I returned to Boston in June 1946, and resumed studies with my first horn teacher, Max Shapiro (father of the Boston Symphony's Harry Shapiro), that I went back to using the full double horn. Ed Glick >>> Howard Sanner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/24/2006 11:44 PM >>> wieder hat Hans Pizka geschrieben: > > For which horn did Britten write the Serenade, what horn had he in > mind ? (excluding Prologue & Epilogue) This is more interesting than it first seems. It is well known that the work was written for Dennis Brain, and that before ca. 1950 Brain played a Raoux, which was essentially a cor solo with a valve section added. Originally Brain's Raoux was crooked in F, but later he had it modified to B-flat alto. Here's the interesting part: The last note of Hymn is a written F an octave and a fifth below middle C. In the first recording, by Brain, Pears, and Britten, this note is wonderfully sonorous and well in tune, too much so to be 123 lipped down and covered. So did Brain play this song on a B-flat horn? What about the others? And what about the prologue and epilogue? B-flat alto 13? I've always wondered that. Probably no one is left who knows the answer for sure. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/glick%40unt.e du ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
I can't positively answer that question, but in the winter of 1946, I studied with Dennis Brain at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in London as part of the Army's postwar education program. You're right, Howard, his horn was exactly as you described it. I doubt that, at that time, he played anything on a B-flat horn (or with a B-flat crook), however, because one of the first things he asked me to do at my first lesson, was to play only on the F side. (At that time, my horn was an army-issue Conn, probably a 6D). It wasn't until I returned to Boston in June 1946, and resumed studies with my first horn teacher, Max Shapiro (father of the Boston Symphony's Harry Shapiro), that I went back to using the full double horn. Ed Glick >>> Howard Sanner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/24/2006 11:44 PM >>> wieder hat Hans Pizka geschrieben: > > For which horn did Britten write the Serenade, what horn had > he in mind ? (excluding Prologue & Epilogue) This is more interesting than it first seems. It is well known that the work was written for Dennis Brain, and that before ca. 1950 Brain played a Raoux, which was essentially a cor solo with a valve section added. Originally Brain's Raoux was crooked in F, but later he had it modified to B-flat alto. Here's the interesting part: The last note of Hymn is a written F an octave and a fifth below middle C. In the first recording, by Brain, Pears, and Britten, this note is wonderfully sonorous and well in tune, too much so to be 123 lipped down and covered. So did Brain play this song on a B-flat horn? What about the others? And what about the prologue and epilogue? B-flat alto 13? I've always wondered that. Probably no one is left who knows the answer for sure. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/glick%40unt.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
I've only been playing for 6 years, and only took a keen interest in playing seriously over the last year and a half. Give me a chance to catch up!!! And the 'if' was sarcastic. 'Sorry' for not being blatant. Lordy. > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] > Re: It's not over yet!> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:42:04 +0200> > As you are > in GB, you sahould know that DB played a single F> peashooter until before > the Hindemith concerto performance> in Baden-Baden, 1950.> > I still wonder, > why so many of the very young horn players> do know so much about physics of > the horn, special modern> tricks, etc. but not much about their heroes even > in their> own country. Why ?> > > > === > > -Original > Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On> Behalf > Of Christine Ranson> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:14 AM> To: The Horn > List> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!> > If.> > > From: [EMAIL > PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu> Subject:> RE: > > [Hornlist] Re: It's > not over yet!> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006> 22:59:30 > > +0200> > There is no > research necessary if one knows what> kind of> > > horn Dennis Brain used > then.> > > >> > > > > > ___> post: > horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pristine_%40hotmail.com _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
As you are in GB, you sahould know that DB played a single F peashooter until before the Hindemith concerto performance in Baden-Baden, 1950. I still wonder, why so many of the very young horn players do know so much about physics of the horn, special modern tricks, etc. but not much about their heroes even in their own country. Why ? === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christine Ranson Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:14 AM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! If. > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu> Subject: RE: > [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:59:30 > +0200> > There is no research necessary if one knows what kind of> > horn Dennis Brain used then.> > > > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
If. > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] > Re: It's not over yet!> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:59:30 +0200> > There is no > research necessary if one knows what kind of> horn Dennis Brain used then.> > > > > == > > -Original Message-> From: [EMAIL > PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On> Behalf Of Christine Ranson> Sent: > Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:04 PM> To: The Horn List> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] > Re: It's not over yet!> > A good point well made :-) I will do some research. > Not that> I'm probably ever going to play this piece :-( but for you,> I will > find out!> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu> Subject:> > RE: > > [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006> 13:48:06 > > > +0200> > But there is a more important performance issue:>> > For which > > > horn did Britten write the Serenade, what horn had> he in> mind ? > > > (excluding Prologue & Epilogue)> > > > >> > > > > > > ============== > >> -Original > > > Message-> From:> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On>> > Behalf Of > > Christine Ranson> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:05 AM>> To: > The > > Horn List> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!>> > Yes, > I'm > > pretty sure I already said I liked it with nat> horn, but> it is > still > > a performance issue that should be> considered with> regards to how > > > detailed Britten was!> > > > Yes, it is not written by> Britten that > > > the soloist has> to> use a natural horn, but it is easier> to play the> > > > prologue &> epilogue better convincing when using a> natural> horn or> > > > hunting horn, including the 1/4-step too high f &> the>> bit-flat a. > > > Second: it is a nice "show" effect.>> Preconditioned, the> soloist > > > manages to switch the> instrument> perfect fast between> prologue & > > first > full> movement.> > >> > > > _> > > Be > one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.> > >> > http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b1> > > >> > 61-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___> > > > > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or> set options > > > at>> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.> > de> > > > > ___> post: > > > horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options at > >> > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pristine_%40h> otmail.com> > > _> Be one > of the first to try Windows Live Mail.> > http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b1> > 61-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___> > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options at> > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.> de> > > ___> post: > horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pristine_%40hotmail.com _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Howard, than I ask why these folks select this piece for the recital ??? There are many other pieces for a tenor, horn & piano combination - and they do not cost any royalties. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Sanner Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:39 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! Hans Pizka hat geschrieben: > > Doing the "Serenade" with piano accompaniment instead of the strings > is a perfect "sacrileg" as it ruins the music perfectly. No argument from me! Britten could write more colorfully for strings than most people can for a large orchestra. (Note that this is not the same as saying that I like Britten's music or his orchestrations. For the most part, I can't stand either! The Serenade, Les illuminations, Billy Budd, and Gloriana are the exceptions.) I doubt Mr. Olson had any choice: The string dept. wasn't the University of Maryland's long suit in those days. (Which goes to show you that, sometimes, at least, things do change for the better.) I also doubt whether the original questioner has any choice in the matter. It sounded like she was a student, and students, in my experience, play what their teachers tell them to, when their teachers tell them to. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
wieder hat Hans Pizka geschrieben: > For which horn did Britten write the Serenade, what horn had he in mind ? (excluding Prologue & Epilogue) This is more interesting than it first seems. It is well known that the work was written for Dennis Brain, and that before ca. 1950 Brain played a Raoux, which was essentially a cor solo with a valve section added. Originally Brain's Raoux was crooked in F, but later he had it modified to B-flat alto. Here's the interesting part: The last note of Hymn is a written F an octave and a fifth below middle C. In the first recording, by Brain, Pears, and Britten, this note is wonderfully sonorous and well in tune, too much so to be 123 lipped down and covered. So did Brain play this song on a B-flat horn? What about the others? And what about the prologue and epilogue? B-flat alto 13? I've always wondered that. Probably no one is left who knows the answer for sure. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Hans Pizka hat geschrieben: > Doing the "Serenade" with piano accompaniment instead of the strings is a perfect "sacrileg" as it ruins the music perfectly. No argument from me! Britten could write more colorfully for strings than most people can for a large orchestra. (Note that this is not the same as saying that I like Britten's music or his orchestrations. For the most part, I can't stand either! The Serenade, Les illuminations, Billy Budd, and Gloriana are the exceptions.) I doubt Mr. Olson had any choice: The string dept. wasn't the University of Maryland's long suit in those days. (Which goes to show you that, sometimes, at least, things do change for the better.) I also doubt whether the original questioner has any choice in the matter. It sounded like she was a student, and students, in my experience, play what their teachers tell them to, when their teachers tell them to. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
There is no research necessary if one knows what kind of horn Dennis Brain used then. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christine Ranson Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:04 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! A good point well made :-) I will do some research. Not that I'm probably ever going to play this piece :-( but for you, I will find out! > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu> Subject: RE: > [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:48:06 > +0200> > But there is a more important performance issue:> > For which > horn did Britten write the Serenade, what horn had> he in mind ? > (excluding Prologue & Epilogue)> > > > > > == > > -Original > Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On> Behalf Of > Christine Ranson> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:05 AM> To: The > Horn List> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!> > Yes, I'm > pretty sure I already said I liked it with nat> horn, but it is still > a performance issue that should be> considered with regards to how > detailed Britten was!> > > > Yes, it is not written by Britten that > the soloist has> to> use a natural horn, but it is easier to play the> > prologue &> epilogue better convincing when using a natural> horn or> > hunting horn, including the 1/4-step too high f &> the> bit-flat a. > Second: it is a nice "show" effect.>> Preconditioned, the soloist > manages to switch the> instrument> perfect fast between prologue & > first full> movement.> > > _> > Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.> > http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b1 > > 61-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___ > > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options > at> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. > de> > > ___> post: > horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pristine_%40h otmail.com _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b1 61-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
A good point well made :-) I will do some research. Not that I'm probably ever going to play this piece :-( but for you, I will find out! > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] > Re: It's not over yet!> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:48:06 +0200> > But there is > a more important performance issue:> > For which horn did Britten write the > Serenade, what horn had> he in mind ? (excluding Prologue & Epilogue)> > > > > > == > > -Original > Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On> Behalf > Of Christine Ranson> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:05 AM> To: The Horn > List> Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!> > Yes, I'm pretty sure > I already said I liked it with nat> horn, but it is still a performance issue > that should be> considered with regards to how detailed Britten was!> > > > > Yes, it is not written by Britten that the soloist has> to> use a natural > horn, but it is easier to play the> prologue &> epilogue better convincing > when using a natural> horn or> hunting horn, including the 1/4-step too high > f &> the> bit-flat a. Second: it is a nice "show" effect.>> Preconditioned, > the soloist manages to switch the> instrument> perfect fast between prologue > & first full> movement.> > > _> Be one > of the first to try Windows Live Mail.> > http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b1> > 61-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___> > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options at> > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.> de> > > ___> post: > horn@music.memphis.edu> unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pristine_%40hotmail.com _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Britten had Dennis Brains horn sound in his imaginations clearly when he wrote his horn pieces. And fingering is much easier e.g. in the Nocturne & Hymn. In the later one all these finger-squeezing a-e-c# can be done like on the handhorn just with 12 (D-horn). The high c3 entrance works perfect with 23. Young folks, try it - but do not play the Serenade with piano. It destroys the real character of the piece. = ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
As I remember reading Morley-Pegge back in 1989, Britten wrote the Serenade for Dennis Brain, while he played the old style narrow bore single F piston horn. The first recording, which I do not own, was done under the batton of the composer. According to Morley-Pegge, Dennis Brain used his instrument as a natural horn, which was especially noticeable around the intonation of the 11th partial, the suspicious flat written F#. I only have heard the serenade once in vito. The tenor was a Dane, the hornplayer was Alan Civil, who according to my 25 years old memory played a Bb single Paxman horn. Perfect musicianship, perfect intonation, but the sound was a bit on the bright side for my taste. That concert was quite spectalular. The venue was a large medieval town church, where the horn solo was played from the pulpit. As I was quite close to the pro circuit back then, I talked to the players during the break. After the break I sat in a hidden place right behind the last chair primos during WAMÂ’s Jupiter symphony. Quite a learning experience. When I later on became a first horn, I always strived to sit very close to the first violins. The leader and I were close friends. "Behind the curtains" he and I controlled the intonation of the orchestra. Fun for us, good for the orchestra. Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre --- hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But there is a more important performance issue: > > For which horn did Britten write the Serenade, what horn had > he in mind ? (excluding Prologue & Epilogue) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
But there is a more important performance issue: For which horn did Britten write the Serenade, what horn had he in mind ? (excluding Prologue & Epilogue) == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christine Ranson Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:05 AM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! Yes, I'm pretty sure I already said I liked it with nat horn, but it is still a performance issue that should be considered with regards to how detailed Britten was! > > Yes, it is not written by Britten that the soloist has to> use a natural horn, but it is easier to play the prologue &> epilogue better convincing when using a natural horn or> hunting horn, including the 1/4-step too high f & the> bit-flat a. Second: it is a nice "show" effect.> Preconditioned, the soloist manages to switch the instrument> perfect fast between prologue & first full movement. _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b1 61-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Yes, I'm pretty sure I already said I liked it with nat horn, but it is still a performance issue that should be considered with regards to how detailed Britten was! > > Yes, it is not written by Britten that the soloist has to> use a natural > > horn, but it is easier to play the prologue &> epilogue better convincing > > when using a natural horn or> hunting horn, including the 1/4-step too high > > f & the> bit-flat a. Second: it is a nice "show" effect.> Preconditioned, > > the soloist manages to switch the instrument> perfect fast between prologue > > & first full movement. _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet!
Yes, Howard, flaming begins: Doing the "Serenade" with piano accompaniment instead of the strings is a perfect "sacrileg" as it ruins the music perfectly. Britten and Hindemith as well are known for their perfect taste for instrument colours. Yes, it is not written by Britten that the soloist has to use a natural horn, but it is easier to play the prologue & epilogue better convincing when using a natural horn or hunting horn, including the 1/4-step too high f & the bit-flat a. Second: it is a nice "show" effect. Preconditioned, the soloist manages to switch the instrument perfect fast between prologue & first full movement. Believe me, it works the way I told, to keep the silence for the eplogue. I did the piece manytimes - with orchestra & never with piano. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Sanner Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 6:33 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: It's not over yet! First, Orrin Olson, my undergrad teacher, did the Britten with piano a year or two before I went to college. I didn't hear it. I'm very familiar with the pianist he used, and her work was always above any kind of reproach. He told me this occasion was no exception. Nonetheless, he said he'd NEVER do it again without a conductor because there are too many tricky ensemble bits. (I don't recall the details, if he gave any; this story is old enough to be your father. ) Learn from his advice. Orrin Olson is a very fine musician and horn player. Second, and perhaps most important, NOWHERE in the full score (I have it, and I have looked at it recently) does Britten say to play the prologue and epilogue on a natural horn. He merely says to play them on the natural harmonics. Those are two related, but, in the final analysis, entirely different things. To be blunt, I think finding any excuse, however lame (and this one's as lame as they get, IMHO), to trot out a natural horn is just plain wrong headed. Which leads to Third, one of my slightly older fellow students, who did attend the performance mentioned in the first paragraph above, related the story of the guy sitting behind her who whispered "Can't he hear he's out of tune?" So you probably do want to mention the characteristics of the harmonic series. For those who never knew Orrin Olson, his intonation was always impeccable. If you ever heard him play out of tune, you had one of those "stories for the grandchildren" experiences. In sum, he most assuredly could tell he was "out of tune" in the Britten prologue and epilogue. Soapbox mode off. Let the flaming begin. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
