RE: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Be it so, if you trust wikipedia, but for us in the heart of Europe, these languages are the Latin or Romanic. Not all is orientated after the English terms. But anyway, these "Spitzfindigkeit" (sophistry) is useless, if even a majority of amateur & semi-professional players cannot even remember the few note names used in the world, nor understand the musical terms if written in Italian nor remember the two different main fingering scales nor the alternative fingerings. And a majority of these players knows all the mechanics of playing but has difficulties to play a single phrase twice perfectly. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michiel van der Linden Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:54 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut 2007/12/6, hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Romance language - yes, these languages (Italian, Francais, Espanol, > etc.) are best suited for romances - what a nice term, but you meant > "Romanic" or Latin languages as they derive from the languages of the > Romans the "LATIN". Romance is a correct term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages Not that we should trust wikipedia... ;) Emory Waters wrote: > Scandinavians, do you use the German system? I'm not scandinavian, but yes, they use the German system. Further: in Spanish and Portuguese "sostenido" is the word used for sharp (the half a tone up kind, not being slightly high in pitch) and in French the word /is/ diese (with an accent on the first e, which I won't type because it will turn into gibberish on most computers) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
2007/12/6, hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Romance language - yes, these languages (Italian, Francais, > Espanol, etc.) are best suited for romances - what a nice > term, but you meant "Romanic" or Latin languages as they > derive from the languages of the Romans the "LATIN". Romance is a correct term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages Not that we should trust wikipedia... ;) Emory Waters wrote: > Scandinavians, do you use the German system? I'm not scandinavian, but yes, they use the German system. Further: in Spanish and Portuguese "sostenido" is the word used for sharp (the half a tone up kind, not being slightly high in pitch) and in French the word /is/ diese (with an accent on the first e, which I won't type because it will turn into gibberish on most computers) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Another great mini lecture by Maestro Pizka. I find his anecdote about the timpanist hits quite close to a number of young players I have worked with. I have attached two links about multitasking below (something that has pervaded our culture along with advancements in home technology) that might address the "environment" portion of Hans' criticism. As for basic music education, I've been working lately with a group of high school aged singers. I find myself (mostly out of stubbornness) spending 90% of the time on ear training, solfeggio, rhythmic and melodic dictation, and only 10% on repertoire. I am discovering that so many young musicians are taught purely by rote without any attention to helping them achieve musical independence. While I understand the desire to get the kids to perform at an early age, too much is being sacrificed in the process. http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/xhp274763.pdf http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-07/uoc--maa072506.php Orlando Pandolfi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:46 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut Romance language - yes, these languages (Italian, Francais, Espanol, etc.) are best suited for romances - what a nice term, but you meant "Romanic" or Latin languages as they derive from the languages of the Romans the "LATIN". But why it seems to be so difficult for many players in the English speaking world to remember just the two other different sets of note naming ? It is so simple, just Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do, with the addidional flat sign "b" (= bemol) or sharp sign # (diesis NOT "diese" = just think "diesel"!!!) in Italian, Spain, Portuguese. C D E F G A H C in German musical terms, with a suffix of "-es" for the flat & "-is" for the sharp. But there are exceptions. If the note name is a vowel, the suffix is just "s", like As for A-flat or Es for E-flat, - and the other exception: B stands for B-flat, while H stands for B-natural. C Cis Des D Dis Es E Fes F Fis Ges G Gis As A Ais B H Ces C. The French just use Ut instead of Do. In the Netherlands they use "Bes" for the B-flat to distinguish it from "B", which stands for B-natural (= H, Si). This is not much to store in your memory, but store it permanently, please. Would you believe, that I met timpanists just few days ago, to whom no one had explained, how rests are notated. You remember the thick vertical lines crossing from second space in the staff to third space, standing for four rest measures or the short thick vertical line just in the second space of the staff (all seen from top line down), standing for two rest measures. These guys have never heard about such. Did you ? Well, the lowest line of this particular staff was missing (last line on page) due to Kalmus negligence. So the timpanists were wrong until I told them how to fix it. But after I explained it to them, they turned the page & the last line of the staff was missing again, but one could see clearly, that the place had two long rest marks (standing for 4 + 4 measures rest) plus one horizontal (hanging) rest measure, resulting in nine measures rest. The timpanists asked me again: "But how many rest measures do we have there ?". They had forgotten allready, what I had told them seconds before. This brought me to the question: "What happen with your basic musical education ?" - They responded, they had not had any. Well, it seems, they are not alone. But it is the duty of the teachers, to point their students to these important basics, while they seem to do a very good job passing playing technique to them. But the playing technique is not all. There is the most important factor based on the technique: musical interpretation in all facettes, beginning with notation. Rests are as important as played notes. Phrasing, where the "wait" factor is the most important; wait for the downbeat e.g. - Intonation, which is not measured in absolutes as it depends on the character of the piece, the expression, the other voices playing the same time. The tone colour, the blending, tempo. It seems to me, the most musical things today result in "dead" music, a music without colours, without expression. Expression must not be misunderstood as an assemblement of crescendi & decrescendi, different accents or slurs or dots. It sounds all "constructed", away from nature. So the teachers are to be blamed & the environment, perhaps. But for you all: please remember these very few note names. You can remember a vast multitude of technical terms inb your profession, but why not these few names in your most loved hobby, just to save us these lengthy & useless back & forth about "horn in Ut".
RE: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Romance language - yes, these languages (Italian, Francais, Espanol, etc.) are best suited for romances - what a nice term, but you meant "Romanic" or Latin languages as they derive from the languages of the Romans the "LATIN". But why it seems to be so difficult for many players in the English speaking world to remember just the two other different sets of note naming ? It is so simple, just Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do, with the addidional flat sign "b" (= bemol) or sharp sign # (diesis NOT "diese" = just think "diesel"!!!) in Italian, Spain, Portuguese. C D E F G A H C in German musical terms, with a suffix of "-es" for the flat & "-is" for the sharp. But there are exceptions. If the note name is a vowel, the suffix is just "s", like As for A-flat or Es for E-flat, - and the other exception: B stands for B-flat, while H stands for B-natural. C Cis Des D Dis Es E Fes F Fis Ges G Gis As A Ais B H Ces C. The French just use Ut instead of Do. In the Netherlands they use "Bes" for the B-flat to distinguish it from "B", which stands for B-natural (= H, Si). This is not much to store in your memory, but store it permanently, please. Would you believe, that I met timpanists just few days ago, to whom no one had explained, how rests are notated. You remember the thick vertical lines crossing from second space in the staff to third space, standing for four rest measures or the short thick vertical line just in the second space of the staff (all seen from top line down), standing for two rest measures. These guys have never heard about such. Did you ? Well, the lowest line of this particular staff was missing (last line on page) due to Kalmus negligence. So the timpanists were wrong until I told them how to fix it. But after I explained it to them, they turned the page & the last line of the staff was missing again, but one could see clearly, that the place had two long rest marks (standing for 4 + 4 measures rest) plus one horizontal (hanging) rest measure, resulting in nine measures rest. The timpanists asked me again: "But how many rest measures do we have there ?". They had forgotten allready, what I had told them seconds before. This brought me to the question: "What happen with your basic musical education ?" - They responded, they had not had any. Well, it seems, they are not alone. But it is the duty of the teachers, to point their students to these important basics, while they seem to do a very good job passing playing technique to them. But the playing technique is not all. There is the most important factor based on the technique: musical interpretation in all facettes, beginning with notation. Rests are as important as played notes. Phrasing, where the "wait" factor is the most important; wait for the downbeat e.g. - Intonation, which is not measured in absolutes as it depends on the character of the piece, the expression, the other voices playing the same time. The tone colour, the blending, tempo. It seems to me, the most musical things today result in "dead" music, a music without colours, without expression. Expression must not be misunderstood as an assemblement of crescendi & decrescendi, different accents or slurs or dots. It sounds all "constructed", away from nature. So the teachers are to be blamed & the environment, perhaps. But for you all: please remember these very few note names. You can remember a vast multitude of technical terms inb your profession, but why not these few names in your most loved hobby, just to save us these lengthy & useless back & forth about "horn in Ut". -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 5:11 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut Generally speaking, publishers in countries with Romance languages seem to use the Sol-Fa syllables to name the key the horn is in (Corno in FA, Cor en Si-bemol). French sticks with UT, Italian (and I believe Spanish) use DO. If they don't qualify the Syllable name with a flat or sharp symbol, then "flat" is some version of "bemol" and "sharp" is some version of "diese." German uses mostly the same letter names as English--the only thing that can trip up English-speaking horn players is Horn in B, which means "Horn in B-flat" in English (German uses "H" for "B-natural" so the Bach Mass in B-minor in German is in H-moll). Scandinavians, do you use the German system? Emory Waters In a message dated 12/5/2007 7:17:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This was in reference to naming keys (the initial question was what is horn in Ut) **Check out AOL's list of 2007
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Generally speaking, publishers in countries with Romance languages seem to use the Sol-Fa syllables to name the key the horn is in (Corno in FA, Cor en Si-bemol). French sticks with UT, Italian (and I believe Spanish) use DO. If they don't qualify the Syllable name with a flat or sharp symbol, then "flat" is some version of "bemol" and "sharp" is some version of "diese." German uses mostly the same letter names as English--the only thing that can trip up English-speaking horn players is Horn in B, which means "Horn in B-flat" in English (German uses "H" for "B-natural" so the Bach Mass in B-minor in German is in H-moll). Scandinavians, do you use the German system? Emory Waters In a message dated 12/5/2007 7:17:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This was in reference to naming keys (the initial question was what is horn in Ut) **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
This was in reference to naming keys (the initial question was what is horn in Ut) As for what to do once you're IN a key, I'm hard-core, la-based minor, moveable Do all the way. Kjellrun On 5-Dec-07, at 7:42 PM, Walter Lewis wrote: I would think that the movable Do system would be in effect. Example: if the key is A, then A is Do...If memory serves correctly, only the French use a stationary do system. That comes from my Music History class. (I could be wrong, it's been over 30 years since I studied Music History and the nuances of solfeggio ). I did remember Guido readily, though. I'm sure if I'm wrong, someone will point out my error. Walt Lewis. Kjellrun Hestekin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A is La (Think of C as Do, the D is Re, and so on.) Flat = bemol Kjellrun On 3-Dec-07, at 10:40 AM, wrote: What happens to horn in A, Ab, B, and Bb? Arn't they referred to as La? Our orchestra recently did an opera with a vocal group. I did so much transposing, I almost forgot how to read Horn in F at one place. Any tricks in transposing when the keys change so ofen? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hestekin%40mun.ca Kjellrun K. Hestekin School of Music Memorial University St. John's, NL Canada A1C 5S7 ph: (709) 737 - 8466 fax 709 737 2666 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lewhorn9%40yahoo.com - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hestekin%40mun.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
In a message dated 05/12/2007 23:19:33 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 6:11 PM -0500 12/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >What is bemo-1? Simply put, it's fla-7! Nah - it's the prequel to bemo-2 (which is sharper) lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
At 6:11 PM -0500 12/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is bemo-1? At 5:16 PM -0600 12/5/07, Carlberg Jones wrote: Simply put, it's fla-7! Seriously, though, perhaps the word "bemol", which means flat, got split at the end of a line, making it seem as you wrote. -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orquesta Sinfónica de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
At 6:11 PM -0500 12/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is bemo-1? Simply put, it's fla-7! -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orquesta Sinfónica de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
I would think that the movable Do system would be in effect. Example: if the key is A, then A is Do...If memory serves correctly, only the French use a stationary do system. That comes from my Music History class. (I could be wrong, it's been over 30 years since I studied Music History and the nuances of solfeggio ). I did remember Guido readily, though. I'm sure if I'm wrong, someone will point out my error. Walt Lewis. Kjellrun Hestekin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A is La (Think of C as Do, the D is Re, and so on.) Flat = bemol Kjellrun On 3-Dec-07, at 10:40 AM, wrote: > What happens to horn in A, Ab, B, and Bb? Arn't they referred to as > La? Our orchestra recently did an opera with a vocal group. I did so > much transposing, I almost forgot how to read Horn in F at one place. > Any tricks in transposing when the keys change so ofen? > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hestekin%40mun.ca > Kjellrun K. Hestekin School of Music Memorial University St. John's, NL Canada A1C 5S7 ph: (709) 737 - 8466 fax 709 737 2666 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lewhorn9%40yahoo.com - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
What is bemo-1? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
A is La (Think of C as Do, the D is Re, and so on.) Flat = bemol Kjellrun On 3-Dec-07, at 10:40 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What happens to horn in A, Ab, B, and Bb? Arn't they referred to as La? Our orchestra recently did an opera with a vocal group. I did so much transposing, I almost forgot how to read Horn in F at one place. Any tricks in transposing when the keys change so ofen? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hestekin%40mun.ca Kjellrun K. Hestekin School of Music Memorial University St. John's, NL Canada A1C 5S7 ph: (709) 737 - 8466 fax 709 737 2666 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Get it from Wendell Rider. Paul Mansur On Dec 3, 2007, at 5:47 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Where does one get Wendell Rider's book??? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Glad to hear someone else is "normal." My biggest problem, believe it or not, is horn in E!! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Where does one get Wendell Rider's book??? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Steven Slaff wrote: >It is called Cinquante Exercices a Changement de >Ton pour Cor (20 Exercises for horn with change of keys). > > >Unfortunately I have no idea where to find it - the one >I am using is borrowed from my teacher. In case you are interested, we do distribute the full line of Leduc titles, including the Thevet book. That can be found on our web site at: http://www.thompsonedition.com/product_detail.php?id=14070 and you are welcome to contact us off-list if you have any questions. David B. Thompson, President Thompson Edition, Inc. http://www.thompsonedition.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
*Goes searching through my horn etudes* There is a book published by Alphonse Leduc and by Lucien Thevet that is perfect for this. It is called Cinquante Exercices a Changement de Ton pour Cor (20 Exercises for horn with change of keys). Basically, this book is made of etudes that change keys every 2 or 4 bars. They start out fairly simply, but quickly get complicated and each one is full of common pitfalls (like written Cb in D horn)! Unfortunately I have no idea where to find it - the one I am using is borrowed from my teacher. Steven Slaff On Dec 3, 2007 9:10 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What happens to horn in A, Ab, B, and Bb? Arn't they referred to as La? Our > orchestra recently did an opera with a vocal group. I did so much > transposing, I almost forgot how to read Horn in F at one place. Any tricks > in transposing when the keys change so ofen? > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/sslaff%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
What happens to horn in A, Ab, B, and Bb? Arn't they referred to as La? Our orchestra recently did an opera with a vocal group. I did so much transposing, I almost forgot how to read Horn in F at one place. Any tricks in transposing when the keys change so ofen? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Ut is the key of C. Paul Mansur On Dec 1, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Bill Gross wrote: What key is that? It was handed out this AM. The conductor doesn't have a full score and the rest of us were at a loss. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Thanks - I will start taking Farkas to practice regularly. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Philip Jacobs Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:28 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut Corno in Ut is Horn in C. from page 73 of Farkas' The Art of French Horn Playing. Phil Jacobs - Original Message From: Bill Gross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 12:10:27 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut What key is that? It was handed out this AM. The conductor doesn't have a full score and the rest of us were at a loss. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/plj59%40yahoo.com Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Corno in Ut is Horn in C. from page 73 of Farkas' The Art of French Horn Playing. Phil Jacobs - Original Message From: Bill Gross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 12:10:27 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut What key is that? It was handed out this AM. The conductor doesn't have a full score and the rest of us were at a loss. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/plj59%40yahoo.com Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Corno in Ut
Horn in C. Sarah Hogan 2nd Horn State of Mexico Symphony Orchestra >>What key is that? It was handed out this AM. The conductor doesn't have a full score and the rest of us were at a loss. **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
