Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
Pete (Wendell L Exline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did mean Paul Meng, who was the host for the IHS meet in Beijing in 2000. Paul studied with an old friend of mine from Firenze who was playing in the Shanghai orchestra in the early days. Pete Do you mean Firenze, Italy? May I ask who was this friend? I might know him. Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
This has been before the Cultural Revolution, which is 40 years over, Daniel. There were many Italian players in Shanghai before 2nd World War, but that´s another story. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Canarutto Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:28 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China Pete (Wendell L Exline [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did mean Paul Meng, who was the host for the IHS meet in Beijing in 2000. Paul studied with an old friend of mine from Firenze who was playing in the Shanghai orchestra in the early days. Pete Do you mean Firenze, Italy? May I ask who was this friend? I might know him. Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
Not sure if this has been covered before, but a large number of White Russians found refuge in China after V. I. Lenin, et al, established paradise on earth in Mother Russia. I believe this was mainly in the Shanghai vicinity. That group may have had some influence as well. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wendell L Exline Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:12 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China There were several articles in the Horn Call by Paul Chen about Horn Playing in China from the early 30's or so. It would probably have been in issues during 1998 or 99. I don't have access to those at the immediate present. A number of European players were playing horn in those years in Shanghai and Beijing. Pete X- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
No, they might rather have been in Harbin near toi the Russian/Siberian border as there was a Russian colony since late 18th century, when they also introduced Western style music musical instruments, but just for that particular area in Manchuria. The Shanghai story is different, as the Western style music began there after the Sun Yatsen revolution had toppled the rule of the Celestial Court, western culture or what was believed to be culture came en vogue soon as well as Western decadence. But they formed an orchestra there, hired a lot of Italian musicians. The wave of western style music spread out in China has been fruitful even Civil War the Cultural Revolution of the 1960ies war a slash backwards. They have recovered since have conservatories in many bif cities. Also, there are a lot of orchestras there: Beijing: National Symphony, radio Symphony, Army Symphony, Central Ballet Theatre, Tienjin: Symphony, Shenyang, Changchun (both in Manchuria), Harbin, Nanjing, Wuhan, Shezhen, Guangzhou, Kunming, Chengdu (symphony movie studio orchestra), Lanzhou, Xian, Shanghai (Symphony, Movie Studio TV orchestra), Xiamen others. The hornplayers are as far as I know Chinese only. There was an american trumpet in Shanghai. In the early 1960ies, some groups from former communist East Germany came to China (mainly classical wind quintets) to teach there. The horn players were Heinz Lohan from Leipsic and Fitz Hofmann from Berlin. They influenced their playing significantly. Doug Hill Barry Tuckwell were there for a short time (just visiting), while I was teaching there in many places spending a week or two here there, discovering some talents on more than thirty trips to China. Prof.Han Sien Kwong from Shanghai, who grew up in Bangkok due to the communist revolution, returned became very successful as horn player teacher. He eventually won awards at the Moscow, Prague Geneve international competitions in 1965/66. His son Han Xiao Ming is successful as saolo horn with the Saarsbruecken Radio Symphony teaches at the music academy there. By the way, the author of the articles in the horn call is Dr.Paul Meng (Meng Pu) not Paul Chen. ===0 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Gross Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:05 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China Not sure if this has been covered before, but a large number of White Russians found refuge in China after V. I. Lenin, et al, established paradise on earth in Mother Russia. I believe this was mainly in the Shanghai vicinity. That group may have had some influence as well. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wendell L Exline Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:12 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China There were several articles in the Horn Call by Paul Chen about Horn Playing in China from the early 30's or so. It would probably have been in issues during 1998 or 99. I don't have access to those at the immediate present. A number of European players were playing horn in those years in Shanghai and Beijing. Pete X- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airm ail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
You are right Hans. I did mean Paul Meng, who was the host for the IHS meet in Beijing in 2000. Paul studied with an old friend of mine from Firenze who was playing in the Shanghai orchestra in the early days. Pete ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
I have, like Hans, a memory, which most humans would want to have themselves. I know the Chinese culture intensely from having been the letterwriter and legal assistant of a Chinese family for over 10 years. I even have gotten one family member out of jail by a simple phone call. I could at the distance of 100 km prove, that he had not committed the murder attempt, for which he had been arrested. Hans is the horn genius, I have spread my talents a bit too widely by being a teacher foremostly, but Hans and I share the membership of a dying breed: the extremely talented and extremely well educated bearers of the central European core of culture, being polyglots just being part of that game. We both read 10 or 12 languages. Hans is an Austrian born in France. I am a Dane born in Denmark, but raised in Germany, where Hans has spent most of his life. What Hans writes is true and interesting. Due to my aphasia and dyslexia I cannot remember and spell names, so Hans may solve one of the lapses of my memories. The Berliner Philharmoniker for years had a Konzertmeister (leader), who had been raised in Shanghai. Whether his family had been refugees from Russia due to their nationality being German or their belief being Jewish escapes me. Hans will know the answer and tell me. But then I may be able to reply to the original posters question. Like it or not, there were two European enclaves in China. Most of us know the British one: Hong Kong. Fewer of us know the Portuguese one of Macao. A tiny spot on the mainland connected to two islands by bridges impressive for their time. For some odd reason the Chinese population of Macao had a burial tradition resembling the one of New Orleans. The brass instruments were Western. But the tonalities were of anything but African or European roots. In my ears they were non-structured noise. And after all I have done fundamental studies on Schönberg and Webern after the Forte method resulting in very original, but not published analyses. So it is hard to surprise my very good musical ears. But the uniformed Macaoan funeral procession managed to do so. They used piston instruments, among them one or two alto horns, but no French horn. By the cacophony emitted the difference would have been hard to tell aurally anyway, but when I saw that TV feature on Macao I were in full command of my eyesight. This no longer the case. Please accept my decision to hang on to this and other lists as long at all possible. Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre --- Joshua Cheuvront [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay, here's a question for you scholars out there, especially those of you who know a lot about Chinese history during the last century. I'm currently attempting to find some sources which address the introduction of brass instruments, especially horn, into China. Unfortunately, I've come up empty-handed so far. There just doesn't seem to be any research out there, at least not in English. I sent an email to Doug Hill last night, figuring he'd be able to point me in the right direction, but I know that many of you on the list have experience/knowledge as well. In case anyone is interested, this all came about as a result of a discussion I had with my instructor for a class on contemporary Chinese music. I used to have a Bruce Lee film on VHS that began with a scene in which a small ensemble is playing during a funeral ritual ceremony. As I remember, there was a Tuba, trombone, and maybe even a horn in the group. When I mentioned this to my instructor, who is originally from China, she said she had never heard of brass instruments being used in ritual music. I'd like to do a research paper on the introduction of brass instruments into China, and hopefully focus on their use in ritual ensembles. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Josh___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/yorkmasterbbb%40yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
They had several forms of horns in China still have several of them in use with certain minority groups in Yuennan province (SW China). Dr.Doug Hill will probably not be able to answer your questions. He has been in China, yes, but how far has he been ? I was in China about thirtytimes to teach on many universities since 1984: Xian, Kunming, Chengdu, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Nanjing (I will be there again next month), Wuhan, Beijing, Shenyang, Tienjian, Changchun, several places twice or threetimes. Two years ago, I have seen the over-the-mountain-horn, a streight horn with a hornsize bell, played in larger groups (I have filmed that played on them also) plus two larger pieces in the group, but not like the Tibetan temple horns, which still exist today which are also played in China. There is also a half-moon-like horn, used by another minority. This horn is made from a large water-buffalo-horn used for solemn ceremonies while the forementioned horns of brass are used for celebrations welcome greetings. When we were welcomed at Xiuxong (the site of the Yuennan dinosaur) by a 24+ group of players, we were really overwhelmed. The larger horns a collapsibles. They use a different sized horn, consisting of a multi-coiled brass tube inside a brass pot, mouthpiece a little bell protruding on opposite sides, not unlike the Buchswinder-horn of Ellwangen in Swabia province of Bavaria from the 17th/18th century. This horn comes in different sizes is also blown in Xiuxong. The temple horns of Tibetan style are played in the Shangri-la County near Zhongdian on the upper part of Jangtse river not far from Tibetan border at an altitude of over 4000 meters. I found the Chinese Horn, as described in old books on musical instruments. It looks like a super cigar of nearly two meters or more length. The only exemplar I have seen was in the Gugong museum in Shenyang, the imperial palace museum. Yes, they Chinese got known our Western style musical instruments during the late 18th century by Russian emigrants settlers in Harbin. They used to have an orchestra there a theatre. As Czar Peter the Great imported many artists (incl. musicians) from Western Europe, the origin of the musicians gon to China then is unknown. Westerners settling thee might have used brass instruments for a last farewell ceremony or last salut, who knows, but it was not the Chinese way of making music. Pictures of the above mentioned instruments will be on my site soon, also two short video clips. But be patient, as I am overfilld with musical duties at the moment (the RING twice Flying Dutchman all the rehearsals but other ballet operas too), so it might still be a while, even all is prepared. Greetings from Munich Hans PS: I will also inquire at the Shanghai Conservatory (masterclass March 29th) Nanjing Arts Institute (April 2nd), but I will be there just on vacations. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Cheuvront Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 10:49 PM To: The Horn List Subject: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China Okay, here's a question for you scholars out there, especially those of you who know a lot about Chinese history during the last century. I'm currently attempting to find some sources which address the introduction of brass instruments, especially horn, into China. Unfortunately, I've come up empty-handed so far. There just doesn't seem to be any research out there, at least not in English. I sent an email to Doug Hill last night, figuring he'd be able to point me in the right direction, but I know that many of you on the list have experience/knowledge as well. In case anyone is interested, this all came about as a result of a discussion I had with my instructor for a class on contemporary Chinese music. I used to have a Bruce Lee film on VHS that began with a scene in which a small ensemble is playing during a funeral ritual ceremony. As I remember, there was a Tuba, trombone, and maybe even a horn in the group. When I mentioned this to my instructor, who is originally from China, she said she had never heard of brass instruments being used in ritual music. I'd like to do a research paper on the introduction of brass instruments into China, and hopefully focus on their use in ritual ensembles. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Josh___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
Good luck. Much information that you would seek got destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. (I assume you refer to Western style Brass instruments judging from your reference to the film. Much documentation exists on indigenous or ethnic lip-blown aerophones) You will almost certainly find nothing written or documented, even in personal diaries, on the subject you have chosen although you may run across expatriates that may recollect useful tidbits and stories. You ought to consider contacting the Horn teachers at the major conservatories in China whereby those that speak English can tell what they know from what got handed down by word of mouth. You must choose your questions very carefully when inquiring about Chinese history in the 20th Century as it has a propensity for revisionism. I seem to remember the Canadian Brass and the Boston Symphony having forays into China during the 1970's. Perhaps some members from those touring groups can offer tiny clues for you as to the status and training of brass playing in China during the 1970s and 80s. And, as you seem to know, Doug Hill as well. I also expect Hans Pizka to pipe in even as I reply at this very second since he has visited China numerous times as a performer and instructor and certainly has plenty to say on anything he has had personal involvement with. You will need to address China accordingly to their political phases in the 20th Century as that has a particularly profound influence upon the arts and education. No doubt the English had a primary influence in the southern areas while the Russians and Japanese influenced the north. Germans had an influence as well prior to the Boxer Rebellion but I have never heard of their cultural influence upon China save Christian Missionaries. You have a very interesting subject but expect many dead ends and red herrings. Historical research on the influence of western culture on China flies in the face of the most recent trend in research that would prove that everything from discovering the American continent to constructing flush toilets happened first in China then spread to the rest of the world; your topic has an undercurrent that goes against this recent paradigm in publications concerning China. Brace yourself. Karl Kemm Assistant Professor of Horn and Humanities Del Mar College 361 698-1601 [o] 940 300-3131 [m] http://www.delmar.edu/music/kemm.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Feb 21, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Joshua Cheuvront wrote: Okay, here's a question for you scholars out there, especially those of you who know a lot about Chinese history during the last century. I'm currently attempting to find some sources which address the introduction of brass instruments, especially horn, into China. Unfortunately, I've come up empty-handed so far. There just doesn't seem to be any research out there, at least not in English. I sent an email to Doug Hill last night, figuring he'd be able to point me in the right direction, but I know that many of you on the list have experience/knowledge as well. In case anyone is interested, this all came about as a result of a discussion I had with my instructor for a class on contemporary Chinese music. I used to have a Bruce Lee film on VHS that began with a scene in which a small ensemble is playing during a funeral ritual ceremony. As I remember, there was a Tuba, trombone, and maybe even a horn in the group. When I mentioned this to my instructor, who is originally from China, she said she had never heard of brass instruments being used in ritual music. I'd like to do a research paper on the introduction of brass instruments into China, and hopefully focus on their use in ritual ensembles. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Josh___ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn/Brass in China
There were several articles in the Horn Call by Paul Chen about Horn Playing in China from the early 30's or so. It would probably have been in issues during 1998 or 99. I don't have access to those at the immediate present. A number of European players were playing horn in those years in Shanghai and Beijing. Pete X- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
