Re: [HOT] leisure=common deprecated. Alternatives?

[Philippe Verdy]

About the rendering: dropping the solid color fill is reasonable
(because "commons" could be used not just for grass, but for various
types of landcovers including playgrounds (natural surfaces: rock,
sand, earth, marsh, wood; or artificialized surfaces: cement, asphalt,
etc., or possibly even wome water areas like ponds and local rivers).
But instead a rendering using some pattern for partial filling (like
restricted military areas or natural reserves) is still possible, or a
rendering using only a thick semitransparent gray inner border line
(possibly dashed or dotted), so that the landcover can still be
represented.


Le lun. 30 mars 2020 à 09:38, Rafael Avila Coya  a écrit :
>
> Ok, understood.
>
> I have therefore reverte the wiki edit.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> O 29/03/20 ás 21:11, Frederik Ramm escribiu:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 3/29/20 20:57, Rafael Avila Coya wrote:
> >> For years we've been using the tag leisure=common for open areas inside
> >> villages and towns in countries of Africa and Asia. We were fairly
> >> comfortable with that tag, but now it appears as deprecated.
> > This "deprecation" is bogus. A decision was made by openstreetmap-carto
> > maintainers to drop the tag from rendering
> > (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3619) bzt
> > openstreetmap-carto does not get do deprecate OSM tags. The edit marking
> > this tag as deprecated in the Wiki by user Ru
> > (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aleisure%3Dcommon&type=revision&diff=1829208&oldid=1805106)
> > was not justified and should be reverted.
> >
> >> Do we have any alternative? Or should we continue using it meanwhile
> >> there isn't any alternative?
> > You're free to continue using and rendering that tag; of course the
> > reasons that led to osm-carto stopping to render it should perhaps be
> > studied and discussed.
> >
> > Bye
> > Frederik
> >
>
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common deprecated. Alternatives?

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Ok, understood.

I have therefore reverte the wiki edit.

Cheers,

Rafael.

O 29/03/20 ás 21:11, Frederik Ramm escribiu:

Hi,

On 3/29/20 20:57, Rafael Avila Coya wrote:

For years we've been using the tag leisure=common for open areas inside
villages and towns in countries of Africa and Asia. We were fairly
comfortable with that tag, but now it appears as deprecated.

This "deprecation" is bogus. A decision was made by openstreetmap-carto
maintainers to drop the tag from rendering
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3619) bzt
openstreetmap-carto does not get do deprecate OSM tags. The edit marking
this tag as deprecated in the Wiki by user Ru
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aleisure%3Dcommon&type=revision&diff=1829208&oldid=1805106)
was not justified and should be reverted.


Do we have any alternative? Or should we continue using it meanwhile
there isn't any alternative?

You're free to continue using and rendering that tag; of course the
reasons that led to osm-carto stopping to render it should perhaps be
studied and discussed.

Bye
Frederik



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Re: [HOT] leisure=common deprecated. Alternatives?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 3/29/20 20:57, Rafael Avila Coya wrote:
> For years we've been using the tag leisure=common for open areas inside
> villages and towns in countries of Africa and Asia. We were fairly
> comfortable with that tag, but now it appears as deprecated.

This "deprecation" is bogus. A decision was made by openstreetmap-carto
maintainers to drop the tag from rendering
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3619) bzt
openstreetmap-carto does not get do deprecate OSM tags. The edit marking
this tag as deprecated in the Wiki by user Ru
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Aleisure%3Dcommon&type=revision&diff=1829208&oldid=1805106)
was not justified and should be reverted.

> Do we have any alternative? Or should we continue using it meanwhile
> there isn't any alternative?

You're free to continue using and rendering that tag; of course the
reasons that led to osm-carto stopping to render it should perhaps be
studied and discussed.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common deprecated. Alternatives?

[John Whelan]

The issue is more the web map will no longer render it.  OSMAND may.

Perhaps talk to the people who render the map?

Cheerio John

Rafael Avila Coya wrote on 2020-03-29 2:57 PM:

Hi all:

For years we've been using the tag leisure=common for open areas 
inside villages and towns in countries of Africa and Asia. We were 
fairly comfortable with that tag, but now it appears as deprecated.


Do we have any alternative? Or should we continue using it meanwhile 
there isn't any alternative?


Cheers,

Rafael.


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[HOT] leisure=common deprecated. Alternatives?

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi all:

For years we've been using the tag leisure=common for open areas inside 
villages and towns in countries of Africa and Asia. We were fairly 
comfortable with that tag, but now it appears as deprecated.


Do we have any alternative? Or should we continue using it meanwhile 
there isn't any alternative?


Cheers,

Rafael.


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Re: [HOT] leisure=common replacement for urban public areas in Africa]

[Vao Matua]

I'm not quite sure why landuse=village_green doesn't meet this need. There
are plenty of examples of British word usage in OSM are not the same as the
original vernacular.
Often in Africa an open area can be quite green in the rainy season and
brown in the dry season.
I'm not opposed to this proposal, but just don't understand the added value.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:24 PM Andrew Buck  wrote:

> This has been discussed before.  I have also created a great many of these
> and agree a better tag could be used but we never found one to switch to.
> I would accept anything the community comes up with as long as it renders
> or the rendering rules are updated before the change.  We don't map for the
> renderer, but these are important features that people depend on being
> visible.  Aside from that, I am fine with switching tags.
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 9:17 AM Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>
>> Not much interest from talk-afr...@openstreetmap.org - maybe
>> hot@openstreetmap.org's larger audience will weight in ?
>>
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: [Talk-africa] leisure=common replacement for urban public areas
>> in Africa
>> Date:Tue, March 5, 2019 10:40 am
>> To:  talk-afr...@openstreetmap.org
>>  tagg...@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> The openstreetmap-carto rendering of leisure=common was recently dropped
>> (
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/4df96c4e4927c3e029b31e34c0cf1be2dda6f637
>> ).
>>
>> In Mali and Senegal, I had found leisure=common to be an expedient way to
>> describe explicitly designed publicly accessible undeveloped
>> municipality-owned open dirt areas in cities, public squares in the barest
>> sense, used for gatherings, impromptu soccer games and more generally as
>> breathing space in a dense urban fabric: it is dedicated to leisure and it
>> is a common area...
>>
>> But it did stray a bit from the original British vernacular meaning, which
>> was akin to landuse=village_green in that the commons are normally grass
>> covered. So I usually combined leisure=common with surface=ground or
>> surface=sand to express the African reality... But still - this bends the
>> concept quite far out of its original shape.
>>
>> So, though we do not map for the renderer, maybe this is a good time to
>> find a better tag to map that feature.
>>
>> My candidate is
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Drecreation_ground - and
>> now that I think about it, I wonder why I didn't use it to begin with.
>>
>> As I'm the author of a good many leisure=common in Mali and Senegal, my
>> near-term goal about them is to replace occurrences of leisure=common with
>> the better term but only in Mali and Senegal.
>>
>> ___
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common replacement for urban public areas in Africa]

[Andrew Buck]

This has been discussed before.  I have also created a great many of these
and agree a better tag could be used but we never found one to switch to.
I would accept anything the community comes up with as long as it renders
or the rendering rules are updated before the change.  We don't map for the
renderer, but these are important features that people depend on being
visible.  Aside from that, I am fine with switching tags.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, 9:17 AM Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> Not much interest from talk-afr...@openstreetmap.org - maybe
> hot@openstreetmap.org's larger audience will weight in ?
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: [Talk-africa] leisure=common replacement for urban public areas
> in Africa
> Date:Tue, March 5, 2019 10:40 am
> To:  talk-afr...@openstreetmap.org
>  tagg...@openstreetmap.org
>
> The openstreetmap-carto rendering of leisure=common was recently dropped
> (
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/4df96c4e4927c3e029b31e34c0cf1be2dda6f637
> ).
>
> In Mali and Senegal, I had found leisure=common to be an expedient way to
> describe explicitly designed publicly accessible undeveloped
> municipality-owned open dirt areas in cities, public squares in the barest
> sense, used for gatherings, impromptu soccer games and more generally as
> breathing space in a dense urban fabric: it is dedicated to leisure and it
> is a common area...
>
> But it did stray a bit from the original British vernacular meaning, which
> was akin to landuse=village_green in that the commons are normally grass
> covered. So I usually combined leisure=common with surface=ground or
> surface=sand to express the African reality... But still - this bends the
> concept quite far out of its original shape.
>
> So, though we do not map for the renderer, maybe this is a good time to
> find a better tag to map that feature.
>
> My candidate is
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Drecreation_ground - and
> now that I think about it, I wonder why I didn't use it to begin with.
>
> As I'm the author of a good many leisure=common in Mali and Senegal, my
> near-term goal about them is to replace occurrences of leisure=common with
> the better term but only in Mali and Senegal.
>
> ___
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[HOT] leisure=common replacement for urban public areas in Africa]

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

Not much interest from talk-afr...@openstreetmap.org - maybe
hot@openstreetmap.org's larger audience will weight in ?


 Original Message 
Subject: [Talk-africa] leisure=common replacement for urban public areas
in Africa
Date:Tue, March 5, 2019 10:40 am
To:  talk-afr...@openstreetmap.org
 tagg...@openstreetmap.org

The openstreetmap-carto rendering of leisure=common was recently dropped
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/4df96c4e4927c3e029b31e34c0cf1be2dda6f637).

In Mali and Senegal, I had found leisure=common to be an expedient way to
describe explicitly designed publicly accessible undeveloped
municipality-owned open dirt areas in cities, public squares in the barest
sense, used for gatherings, impromptu soccer games and more generally as
breathing space in a dense urban fabric: it is dedicated to leisure and it
is a common area...

But it did stray a bit from the original British vernacular meaning, which
was akin to landuse=village_green in that the commons are normally grass
covered. So I usually combined leisure=common with surface=ground or
surface=sand to express the African reality... But still - this bends the
concept quite far out of its original shape.

So, though we do not map for the renderer, maybe this is a good time to
find a better tag to map that feature.

My candidate is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Drecreation_ground - and
now that I think about it, I wonder why I didn't use it to begin with.

As I'm the author of a good many leisure=common in Mali and Senegal, my
near-term goal about them is to replace occurrences of leisure=common with
the better term but only in Mali and Senegal.

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Re: [HOT] leisure=common

[Paul Norman]

On 8/6/2015 1:37 PM, Blake Girardot wrote:
Those areas are large, short grass or ground/grass areas in villages 
or settlements, often with paths walked across them. They are 
typically common areas for the settlement.


It should not be used on areas that are just a large flat areas out in 
the middle of nowhere or farm fields/farm land. 
Although not unique to England, commons do not exist everywhere. I'd be 
very reluctant to tag commons without local knowledge, as the key aspect 
of commons are the rights of the commoners.


Commons are not always grass areas, they can be forested, where there 
would be rights to harvest wood, nor is a common recreation area, 
although they sometimes get used for that.


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Re: [HOT] leisure=common

[john whelan]

When I'm validating I see quite a few area=yes name=common, which is
probably a training issue in iD.   Of the ones I do see tagged correctly
I'd only want to land something on about a quarter of them.

Sometimes I get the feeling that many new mappers want to map at least one
of everything mentioned in the instructions.  Other times you wonder if
they can read because what they are mapping and the source is not at all
what is in the instructions.

Cheerio John

On 6 August 2015 at 16:37, Blake Girardot  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> If it is a one of the "traditional" areas that HOT tags as leisure=common
> then we can tag it as one.
>
> Those areas are large, short grass or ground/grass areas in villages or
> settlements, often with paths walked across them. They are typically common
> areas for the settlement.
>
> It should not be used on areas that are just a large flat areas out in the
> middle of nowhere or farm fields/farm land.
>
> I mark them by using the search to find "common" and that put
> leisure=common on the object.
>
> Cheers,
> Blake
>
>
>
> On 8/6/2015 10:05 PM, john whelan wrote:
>
>> First how do you tag it in iD?
>>
>> Second there has been some discussion about how useful it is should we
>> be tagging it in a different way?
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>>
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common

[Blake Girardot]

Hi John,

If it is a one of the "traditional" areas that HOT tags as 
leisure=common then we can tag it as one.


Those areas are large, short grass or ground/grass areas in villages or 
settlements, often with paths walked across them. They are typically 
common areas for the settlement.


It should not be used on areas that are just a large flat areas out in 
the middle of nowhere or farm fields/farm land.


I mark them by using the search to find "common" and that put 
leisure=common on the object.


Cheers,
Blake


On 8/6/2015 10:05 PM, john whelan wrote:

First how do you tag it in iD?

Second there has been some discussion about how useful it is should we
be tagging it in a different way?

Thanks John


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Re: [HOT] leisure=common

[Bryan Housel]

iD has a preset for it.  Simply create a point or area, then search for 
“Common” and pick it.

Thanks, Bryan



> On Aug 6, 2015, at 4:05 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> 
> First how do you tag it in iD?
> 
> Second there has been some discussion about how useful it is should we be 
> tagging it in a different way?
> 
> Thanks John
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[HOT] leisure=common

[john whelan]

First how do you tag it in iD?

Second there has been some discussion about how useful it is should we be
tagging it in a different way?

Thanks John
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)

[Bazo]

thank you andrew and Pierre to remember that we are remote mapping. And
in this case, we must avoid to deduce the characteristics of remote
objects. The field teams will complement this with more details.
Otherwise it may give false information

Andrew Buck a écrit :
> As Pierre has noted we map what is on the ground, not what how we
> think it should be mapped.  If there is a common area then we tag it
> as such, if there is not then we should not 'invent' one that is close
> by simply for the purpose of having one.
> 
> It is important to note, the reason I asked to have these mapped is
> that they _might_ be used as helipads, not that they must be.  As Mark
> noted, the criteria for what is an acceptable landing site is
> something only a pilot can decide, and even then only for a specific
> helicopter and specific load.  All we can do is tell them reasonable
> places to start looking, but it is for them to decide if any of the
> areas we marked are acceptable.  I expect that they would try to
> review the area in imagery anyway or have someone confirm it on the
> ground before dispatching a helicopter there.  Our data is not the
> final word, just something so that they have a starting place.
> 
> As to the round areas, I have noticed several mappers doing this.  Not
> sure if it is a newbie thing or what, but the area should not be
> mapped as round unless it is actually round.  Otherwise we should be
> mapping the proper shape.
> 
> -AndrewBuck
> 
> 
> On 02/19/2015 08:16 AM, john whelan wrote:
>> So the advice back to the mapper?
> 
>> My opinion would be if its readily identifiable as landuse=common
>> then map it, but refrain from arbitrarily adding a circle tagged
>> landuse=common close to each small village perhaps?
> 
>> Personally when I'm mapping if something like this stands out then
>> it gets mapped but its quite rare that I spot one.
> 
>> Thanks
> 
>> Cheerio John
> 
>> On 19 February 2015 at 08:59, Pierre Béland 
>> wrote:
> 
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> Our role is to grab information, facilitate the logistic of the 
>>> humanitarian organizations.
>>>
>>> But we are not specialists. Once we have identified the common
>>> leisures, the GIS specialists from the international
>>> organizations can easily extract this info and examine further.
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>> -- *De :* john whelan
>>>  *À :* "hot@openstreetmap.org"
>>>  *Envoyé le :* Jeudi 19 février 2015 6h31 
>>> *Objet :* [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)
>>>
>>> Project 892 task 23 is an example.  The following question got
>>> sent to me probably because I've been validating merrily away.
>>>
>>>> What is the minimum diameter for a Helipad (leisure=common)?
>>>
>>> Based on my own experience of visiting a remote Scottish Island
>>> the local football pitch, being smooth, level and firm enough was
>>> the designated helicopter landing place.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that you can tell enough from satellite imagery that
>>> a certain bit of ground is smooth, level and firm enough to take
>>> the weight of a helicopter.  However we seem to have a fair
>>> number of circular leisure=common areas tagged near fairly small
>>> villages.
>>>
>>> So can we flesh out a bit more of the requirements please and
>>> better identify what we should be looking for and mapping.
>>>
>>> Thanks John
>>>
>>> ___ HOT mailing list 
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)

[Andrew Buck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

As Pierre has noted we map what is on the ground, not what how we
think it should be mapped.  If there is a common area then we tag it
as such, if there is not then we should not 'invent' one that is close
by simply for the purpose of having one.

It is important to note, the reason I asked to have these mapped is
that they _might_ be used as helipads, not that they must be.  As Mark
noted, the criteria for what is an acceptable landing site is
something only a pilot can decide, and even then only for a specific
helicopter and specific load.  All we can do is tell them reasonable
places to start looking, but it is for them to decide if any of the
areas we marked are acceptable.  I expect that they would try to
review the area in imagery anyway or have someone confirm it on the
ground before dispatching a helicopter there.  Our data is not the
final word, just something so that they have a starting place.

As to the round areas, I have noticed several mappers doing this.  Not
sure if it is a newbie thing or what, but the area should not be
mapped as round unless it is actually round.  Otherwise we should be
mapping the proper shape.

- -AndrewBuck


On 02/19/2015 08:16 AM, john whelan wrote:
> So the advice back to the mapper?
> 
> My opinion would be if its readily identifiable as landuse=common
> then map it, but refrain from arbitrarily adding a circle tagged
> landuse=common close to each small village perhaps?
> 
> Personally when I'm mapping if something like this stands out then
> it gets mapped but its quite rare that I spot one.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Cheerio John
> 
> On 19 February 2015 at 08:59, Pierre Béland 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> Our role is to grab information, facilitate the logistic of the 
>> humanitarian organizations.
>> 
>> But we are not specialists. Once we have identified the common
>> leisures, the GIS specialists from the international
>> organizations can easily extract this info and examine further.
>> 
>> Pierre
>> 
>> -------------- *De :* john whelan
>>  *À :* "hot@openstreetmap.org"
>>  *Envoyé le :* Jeudi 19 février 2015 6h31 
>> *Objet :* [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)
>> 
>> Project 892 task 23 is an example.  The following question got
>> sent to me probably because I've been validating merrily away.
>> 
>>> What is the minimum diameter for a Helipad (leisure=common)?
>> 
>> Based on my own experience of visiting a remote Scottish Island
>> the local football pitch, being smooth, level and firm enough was
>> the designated helicopter landing place.
>> 
>> I'm not sure that you can tell enough from satellite imagery that
>> a certain bit of ground is smooth, level and firm enough to take
>> the weight of a helicopter.  However we seem to have a fair
>> number of circular leisure=common areas tagged near fairly small
>> villages.
>> 
>> So can we flesh out a bit more of the requirements please and
>> better identify what we should be looking for and mapping.
>> 
>> Thanks John
>> 
>> ___ HOT mailing list 
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 

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Re: [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)

[Pierre Béland]

Yes, we simply map what we can identify as leisure=common. And has Mark said, 
it will help if we trace the buildings close to the field.  Such data will be 
analyzed later by specialists. Our role is to provide them options that they 
will examine.
 Pierre 

  De : john whelan 
 À : Pierre Béland  
Cc : "hot@openstreetmap.org"  
 Envoyé le : Jeudi 19 février 2015 9h16
 Objet : Re: [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)
   
So the advice back to the mapper?

My opinion would be if its readily identifiable as landuse=common then map it, 
but refrain from arbitrarily adding a circle tagged landuse=common close to 
each small village perhaps? 

Personally when I'm mapping if something like this stands out then it gets 
mapped but its quite rare that I spot one.

Thanks

Cheerio John



On 19 February 2015 at 08:59, Pierre Béland  wrote:

Hi John,
Our role is to grab information, facilitate the logistic of the humanitarian 
organizations. 

But we are not specialists. Once we have identified the common leisures, the 
GIS specialists from the international organizations can easily extract this 
info and examine further.
 Pierre 

  De : john whelan 
 À : "hot@openstreetmap.org"  
 Envoyé le : Jeudi 19 février 2015 6h31
 Objet : [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)
   
Project 892 task 23 is an example.  The following question got sent to me 
probably because I've been validating merrily away.

>What is the minimum diameter for a Helipad (leisure=common)?

Based on my own experience of visiting a remote Scottish Island the local 
football pitch, being smooth, level and firm enough was the designated 
helicopter landing place.

I'm not sure that you can tell enough from satellite imagery that a certain bit 
of ground is smooth, level and firm enough to take the weight of a helicopter.  
However we seem to have a fair number of circular leisure=common areas tagged 
near fairly small villages.

So can we flesh out a bit more of the requirements please and better identify 
what we should be looking for and mapping.

Thanks John

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Re: [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)

[john whelan]

So the advice back to the mapper?

My opinion would be if its readily identifiable as landuse=common then map
it, but refrain from arbitrarily adding a circle tagged landuse=common
close to each small village perhaps?

Personally when I'm mapping if something like this stands out then it gets
mapped but its quite rare that I spot one.

Thanks

Cheerio John

On 19 February 2015 at 08:59, Pierre Béland  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> Our role is to grab information, facilitate the logistic of the
> humanitarian organizations.
>
> But we are not specialists. Once we have identified the common leisures,
> the GIS specialists from the international organizations can easily extract
> this info and examine further.
>
> Pierre
>
>   --
>  *De :* john whelan 
> *À :* "hot@openstreetmap.org" 
> *Envoyé le :* Jeudi 19 février 2015 6h31
> *Objet :* [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)
>
> Project 892 task 23 is an example.  The following question got sent to me
> probably because I've been validating merrily away.
>
> >What is the minimum diameter for a Helipad (leisure=common)?
>
> Based on my own experience of visiting a remote Scottish Island the local
> football pitch, being smooth, level and firm enough was the designated
> helicopter landing place.
>
> I'm not sure that you can tell enough from satellite imagery that a
> certain bit of ground is smooth, level and firm enough to take the weight
> of a helicopter.  However we seem to have a fair number of circular
> leisure=common areas tagged near fairly small villages.
>
> So can we flesh out a bit more of the requirements please and better
> identify what we should be looking for and mapping.
>
> Thanks John
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
>
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Re: [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)

[Pierre Béland]

Hi John,
Our role is to grab information, facilitate the logistic of the humanitarian 
organizations. 

But we are not specialists. Once we have identified the common leisures, the 
GIS specialists from the international organizations can easily extract this 
info and examine further.
 Pierre 

  De : john whelan 
 À : "hot@openstreetmap.org"  
 Envoyé le : Jeudi 19 février 2015 6h31
 Objet : [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)
   
Project 892 task 23 is an example.  The following question got sent to me 
probably because I've been validating merrily away.

>What is the minimum diameter for a Helipad (leisure=common)?

Based on my own experience of visiting a remote Scottish Island the local 
football pitch, being smooth, level and firm enough was the designated 
helicopter landing place.

I'm not sure that you can tell enough from satellite imagery that a certain bit 
of ground is smooth, level and firm enough to take the weight of a helicopter.  
However we seem to have a fair number of circular leisure=common areas tagged 
near fairly small villages.

So can we flesh out a bit more of the requirements please and better identify 
what we should be looking for and mapping.

Thanks John

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Re: [HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)

[Mark Cupitt]

Hi John,

It is actually a quite difficult thing to specify because the performance
of helicopters varies dramatically.

To explain ..

Temperature and altitude play a very large role, basically the higer you
are, the thinner the air, the less bite on the rotors.

There is a measure called density altitude, which is where the temperature
comes in, the hotter it is, the thinner the air = same issue as above

The combination of the two is one of the most important things a pilot
looks at

There are very few helicopters that routinely take off vertically,
generally they will rise to a hover then move forward in ground effect
(which is like a cushion of air between the rotors and the ground). This
actually allows heavier helicopters to take off without needing so much
power for a vertical climb out, and which many cannot do for performance
reasons and options if they have an engine failure.

Weight is another very critical factor, but that is an operational matter
we will never know anything about and is often driven by temperature and
altitude issues as well.

So the bottom line is not so much the actual space, it is the approach and
departure paths that are the most critical.

Some choppers can come right in and drop and depart vertically, say into a
foot ball field surrounded by a stadium.

However, I know the pilots would much prefer to have options for approach
and departure that gives them a way in and out without having to climb
vertically, and probably means that they can carry more in terms of
payload, people, etc.

Again, this is all very much dependent on the type of helicopter, some can
do it, others not depending on their performance envelopes.

If we map the buildings around any marked landing areas, then any pilot
will know immediately he is dealing with obstacles and can plan his flight
accordingly. Height of those building is a VERY useful piece of
information, but one we are unlikely to be able to provide from Sat images

The other thing we can do is map power lines, other buildings, and groups
of trees around the LZ's to show possible approach and departure paths,
this would be very useful information for mission planners and pilots

Hope that helps






Regards

Mark Cupitt

"If we change the world, let it bear the mark of our intelligence"

See me on Open StreetMap 


On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:31 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> Project 892 task 23 is an example.  The following question got sent to me
> probably because I've been validating merrily away.
>
> >What is the minimum diameter for a Helipad (leisure=common)?
>
> Based on my own experience of visiting a remote Scottish Island the local
> football pitch, being smooth, level and firm enough was the designated
> helicopter landing place.
>
> I'm not sure that you can tell enough from satellite imagery that a
> certain bit of ground is smooth, level and firm enough to take the weight
> of a helicopter.  However we seem to have a fair number of circular
> leisure=common areas tagged near fairly small villages.
>
> So can we flesh out a bit more of the requirements please and better
> identify what we should be looking for and mapping.
>
> Thanks John
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
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[HOT] leisure=common (Helipad)

[john whelan]

Project 892 task 23 is an example.  The following question got sent to me
probably because I've been validating merrily away.

>What is the minimum diameter for a Helipad (leisure=common)?

Based on my own experience of visiting a remote Scottish Island the local
football pitch, being smooth, level and firm enough was the designated
helicopter landing place.

I'm not sure that you can tell enough from satellite imagery that a certain
bit of ground is smooth, level and firm enough to take the weight of a
helicopter.  However we seem to have a fair number of circular
leisure=common areas tagged near fairly small villages.

So can we flesh out a bit more of the requirements please and better
identify what we should be looking for and mapping.

Thanks John
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