Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[Bruno Postle]

On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 at 18:42, T. Modes wrote:
>
> Okay, this is now reproducible here. It is also a side effect of moving the 
> selection code from the mouse down to the mouse up handler.
> I had to revert this change. I found no way to fix all these issue.
> I tried the fix the issue with selecting and moving cp in another way in 
> changeset 577d2a6299ff.
> Please test it. Hopefully it works now better and does not break something 
> other.

Thanks, seems to work ok.
Single-clicking a control point selects, centres it, and shows the
magnifier (unless already zoomed to 200%)
Click-dragging shows the magnifier, and only centres the point after
dragging. This is fine, though for myself I could do without the
centering after dragging, as I get a little bit lost with the jump
(the point I just moved isn't where I left it) - I'm not sure what
others think about this?

-- 
Bruno

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[T. Modes]

Hi Bruno,

bruno...@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. Februar 2022 um 22:46:54 UTC+1:

> It could be a platform issue. If I click (mousedown and mouseup) on a 
> control point, the magnifier appears. If I click (mousedown) the 
> magnifier doesn't appear until I start dragging the control point, or 
> I mouseup. 
>
Okay, this is now reproducible here. It is also a side effect of moving the 
selection code from the mouse down to the mouse up handler.
I had to revert this change. I found no way to fix all these issue.
I tried the fix the issue with selecting and moving cp in another way in 
changeset 577d2a6299ff. 
Please test it. Hopefully it works now better and does not break something 
other.

Thomas

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[chaosjug]

Hi Thomas

Am Mittwoch, 2. Februar 2022, 17:38:37 CET schrieb T. Modes:
> Also in the last years with the improvements of the automatic cp detectors
> I'm using the cp tab to less and less amount. So the necessarity for bigger
> improvments is very low for me.
In which releases are those improvements you are talking about? cpfind usually
gives me no good control points but Hugin in my Ubuntu install is 2019.2 so a
newer version could help. Or would I need to compile master?

Regards,
Stephan



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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[Bruno Postle]

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 at 16:38, T. Modes  wrote:
>
> bruno...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 23:20:14 UTC+1:
>>
>> On investigation, it looks like the magnifier doesn't appear when you click 
>> down on a control point, it only appears once you have dragged it away from 
>> the original location, then when you let go it vanishes after a couple of 
>> seconds.
>
> This is not reproducible here. The magnifier appears when only clicking on 
> the cp.  (and also when dragging)


It could be a platform issue. If I click (mousedown and mouseup) on a
control point, the magnifier appears. If I click (mousedown) the
magnifier doesn't appear until I start dragging the control point, or
I mouseup.

-- 
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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[johnfi...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:36:28 PM UTC-5 Luís Henrique Camargo 
Quiroz wrote:

>
>John just told us about another annoyance that I, while adding manually 
> my control points, see all the time. I put the text in bold, in his first 
> paragraph below.
>I even tried, in vain, to immobilize the mouse -- with both hands! -- 
> before releasing the button to create a CP, however the carefully chosen 
> position moves and then I have to use the arrow keys to reposition it where 
> intended. I think the movement is always to the right, maybe a little up, 
> and it seems to be by a fixed amount. 
>

I'm pretty sure you are talking about a different problem than the ones I 
was talking about (in what you highlighted).

1) I was talking about the fact that the displayed numeric change on 
release includes movement that occurred earlier and was not numerically 
displayed earlier, so if you perfectly freeze before releasing, the 
displayed numbers do not represent where the point actually is (the 
displayed point does represent where it is).

2) I was talking about my own inability to release a mouse button without 
moving the mouse.  Maybe others have the same problem.  Maybe some mice 
force that problem.  But it is far from a universal problem.  One of my 
sons can use and release (without extra movement) the same mouse in the 
same program (though he hasn't tried hugin) that I fail with.

Consistent up and to the right?? A fixed amount??

We aren't talking about the same thing.  If there is some hugin problem 
there, I don't even have the manual dexterity to try to test for it.

Need to adjust with arrows after releasing the mouse:  I just assume that 
as fact of life, not as something that could be corrected.  But I also 
assume that is just me, not most users.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[Luís Henrique Camargo Quiroz]

   John just told us about another annoyance that I, while adding manually
my control points, see all the time. I put the text in bold, in his first
paragraph below.
   I even tried, in vain, to immobilize the mouse -- with both hands! --
before releasing the button to create a CP, however the carefully chosen
position moves and then I have to use the arrow keys to reposition it where
intended. I think the movement is always to the right, maybe a little up,
and it seems to be by a fixed amount.


> Em qua., 2 de fev. de 2022 às 14:19, johnfi...@gmail.com <
johnfine2...@gmail.com> escreveu:

>
>
> On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 11:38:37 AM UTC-5 T. Modes wrote:
>
>> bruno...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 23:20:14
>> UTC+1:
>>
>>> On investigation, it looks like the magnifier doesn't appear when you
>>> click down on a control point, it only appears once you have dragged it
>>> away from the original location, then when you let go it vanishes after a
>>> couple of seconds.
>>>
>> This is not reproducible here. The magnifier appears when only clicking
>> on the cp.  (and also when dragging)
>>
>
> Yesterday, I was seeing the behavior Bruno described.  I don't have a
> steady enough hand, so usually when I clicked, I accidentally dragged, but
> sometimes I just clicked and got no magnifier.
> But I can't reproduce it today (as I tried to prepare to comment on what
> you just wrote) and I can't think of anything that could have changed.  I
> think a few of these times I clicked carefully enough to not drag.  But I
> can't be sure.  I almost never can release the mouse carefully enough to
> not drag.  *The displayed x,y coordinates change on release *and so far
> as I understand, there isn't a way to know after just clicking whether the
> point has moved slightly.
>
>>
>>
>> Just some more remarks:
>> The logic implemented in the cp tab is already very complex to handle all
>> use case - there are many possible user interactions, many have been
>> improved in the last years. So doing changes based on a feeling can be very
>> dangerous and has the possibility to break other interactions with the tab.
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure I can retain the exact current behavior for the default
> value of new pref items.  I will need to make changes very slowly and
> carefully with a lot of research into current behavior.  But I can do that.
>
> I don't believe the current behavior is very close to the intended
> behavior when coded.  In most cases I see, the magnifiers stay
> indefinitely.  From what you said as well as from what I would guess by
> looking at the code, that is not intended behavior.  For my own use, that
> probably unintended  behavior is necessary for me to be able to use the
> tool at all and the apparently (to me) random situations in which the
> intended behavior occurs are a massive inconvenience.
>
> Still in changing the code, this would be one of the uncommon (as compared
> to other work I've done) cases in which maintaining the default of behavior
> I'll never understand would be easier than fixing that behavior.
>
>>
>> Also in the last years with the improvements of the automatic cp
>> detectors I'm using the cp tab to less and less amount. So the necessarity
>> for bigger improvments is very low for me.
>>
>> Maybe there is more I need to learn about using the automatic detectors.
> But so far, I've never been able to construct a decent panorama without
> removing many automatically created cp's and adding several new ones.
>
> --
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> 
> .
>


-- 
-- 
Luis Henrique Camargo Quiroz
http://luishcq.br.tripod.com - http://www.christusrex.org/www2/cantgreg
http://panoramaslh.net/

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[johnfi...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 11:38:37 AM UTC-5 T. Modes wrote:

> bruno...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 23:20:14 UTC+1:
>
>> On investigation, it looks like the magnifier doesn't appear when you 
>> click down on a control point, it only appears once you have dragged it 
>> away from the original location, then when you let go it vanishes after a 
>> couple of seconds.
>>
> This is not reproducible here. The magnifier appears when only clicking on 
> the cp.  (and also when dragging)
>

Yesterday, I was seeing the behavior Bruno described.  I don't have a 
steady enough hand, so usually when I clicked, I accidentally dragged, but 
sometimes I just clicked and got no magnifier.
But I can't reproduce it today (as I tried to prepare to comment on what 
you just wrote) and I can't think of anything that could have changed.  I 
think a few of these times I clicked carefully enough to not drag.  But I 
can't be sure.  I almost never can release the mouse carefully enough to 
not drag.  The displayed x,y coordinates change on release and so far as I 
understand, there isn't a way to know after just clicking whether the point 
has moved slightly.

>
>
> Just some more remarks:
> The logic implemented in the cp tab is already very complex to handle all 
> use case - there are many possible user interactions, many have been 
> improved in the last years. So doing changes based on a feeling can be very 
> dangerous and has the possibility to break other interactions with the tab.
>

I'm pretty sure I can retain the exact current behavior for the default 
value of new pref items.  I will need to make changes very slowly and 
carefully with a lot of research into current behavior.  But I can do that.

I don't believe the current behavior is very close to the intended behavior 
when coded.  In most cases I see, the magnifiers stay indefinitely.  From 
what you said as well as from what I would guess by looking at the code, 
that is not intended behavior.  For my own use, that probably unintended  
behavior is necessary for me to be able to use the tool at all and the 
apparently (to me) random situations in which the intended behavior occurs 
are a massive inconvenience.

Still in changing the code, this would be one of the uncommon (as compared 
to other work I've done) cases in which maintaining the default of behavior 
I'll never understand would be easier than fixing that behavior.

>
> Also in the last years with the improvements of the automatic cp detectors 
> I'm using the cp tab to less and less amount. So the necessarity for bigger 
> improvments is very low for me.
>
> Maybe there is more I need to learn about using the automatic detectors.  
But so far, I've never been able to construct a decent panorama without 
removing many automatically created cp's and adding several new ones.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[T. Modes]

Hi Bruno,

bruno...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 23:20:14 UTC+1:

> On investigation, it looks like the magnifier doesn't appear when you 
> click down on a control point, it only appears once you have dragged it 
> away from the original location, then when you let go it vanishes after a 
> couple of seconds.
>
This is not reproducible here. The magnifier appears when only clicking on 
the cp.  (and also when dragging)

It seems to me that it would be useful to see the magnifier straight away 
> on clicking, so you can decide *not* to move the point.
>
This works here: when clicking on the cp in the image and also when 
selecting the cp in the list. 

When click-dragging a point, the other viewpoint actually shows a magnifier 
> for the previous control point, not the point you are actually moving, only 
> on mouse-up is the current point selected and the correct magnifier shown. 
> It only works correctly if you first click on the point, then click again 
> to drag - this is surely a bug.
>
This was introduced when switching the selecting behaviour from mouse down 
to the mouse up event done last week. Will have a look on this one.

When hovering/switching the mouse between viewports, the magnifier appears, 
> but only in the other viewport, I'm not sure what benefit this has.
>
I see two main usage scenarios:
1) Move the cp -> here the magnifier would be useful
2) Select another cp -> here the magnifier could be in the way and the 
magnifier could hide the other cp which the user wants to select. So hide 
the magnifier (as currently done) when moving the mouse pointer above the 
active control would be one way to handle this case (but it is not ideal 
when only moving the cp I admit, it is a compromise for different use 
cases).

Just some more remarks:
The logic implemented in the cp tab is already very complex to handle all 
use case - there are many possible user interactions, many have been 
improved in the last years. So doing changes based on a feeling can be very 
dangerous and has the possibility to break other interactions with the tab.

Also in the last years with the improvements of the automatic cp detectors 
I'm using the cp tab to less and less amount. So the necessarity for bigger 
improvments is very low for me.

Thomas

>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[johnfi...@gmail.com]

I wasn't giving proper attention to where the mouse was hovering when I was 
trying to understand the magnifier behavior.  I was instead thinking about 
where the last mouse click had been, which doesn't seem to matter as much.

In testing now, it seems that the magnifier appears when the hovering mouse 
leaves the image (subject to there being a cp selected).  So you get the 
other when when you hover to the other image and both when you hover to the 
lower section of the cp dialog outside both images.  Then sometimes the 
arrow keys work to move some side of the selected cp with both magnifiers 
in view, and sometimes not (I still don't have a great mental model).  That 
is more control (without making a code change) than I thought I had.  But 
the lack of mental model means I still don't know what to expect when I do 
things.

>

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[Bruno Postle]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2022, 17:53 johnfine wrote:

>
> I hope Bruno and others will answer your question, because I'm pretty sure
> Bruno disliked the current magnifier hiding and would be more competent to
> explain why and/or have more mainstream reasons.
>

I never really considered the possibility that the magnifier was on a
timer, it just seemed to disappear, and it wasn't clear how to make it
reappear.

On investigation, it looks like the magnifier doesn't appear when you click
down on a control point, it only appears once you have dragged it away from
the original location, then when you let go it vanishes after a couple of
seconds.

It seems to me that it would be useful to see the magnifier straight away
on clicking, so you can decide *not* to move the point.

It is there while you are moving the point with the arrow keys, which seems
good to me, and frankly this is the only time when the magnifier is any
real use anyway.

It makes sense that it disappears when not being moved, since it obscures a
lot, though maybe two seconds is a bit quick.

When click-dragging a point, the other viewpoint actually shows a magnifier
for the previous control point, not the point you are actually moving, only
on mouse-up is the current point selected and the correct magnifier shown.
It only works correctly if you first click on the point, then click again
to drag - this is surely a bug.

When hovering/switching the mouse between viewports, the magnifier appears,
but only in the other viewport, I'm not sure what benefit this has.

-- 
Bruno

>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[johnfi...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 12:34:49 PM UTC-5 T. Modes wrote:

>
> Just to recapitulate how the magnifier work:
> a) When a cp is selected (via the list or by clicking on it) the magnifier 
> is shown. As soon as the mouse moves over one image it is hidden. -> So no 
> need for an additional shortcut IMO. Just move the mouse.
> b) The magnifier is then showing again when dragging the selected cp with 
> the mouse. When the dragging is finished the magnifier is hidden after 2 s. 
> During dragging I think the magnifier is helpful for better selection of 
> the position.
>
> So which behaviour is disturbing you?
>

That description doesn't fit the behavior that I think I've experienced.  
But I never had a good mental model of what that behavior was and the 
surprises in behavior were part of the problem.  Later I may try to test a 
bit and see where the behavior doesn't fit your description.

I hope Bruno and others will answer your question, because I'm pretty sure 
Bruno disliked the current magnifier hiding and would be more competent to 
explain why and/or have more mainstream reasons.

For myself, I am slow at parsing visual information, such as comparing what 
I see in one magnifier to what I see in the other, so as I'm deciding 
whether to move it more, the magnifier is gone and I can't finish deciding.

I also find it very odd that there is so often a magnifier on one image but 
not on the other.  Is there a point to that, which I'm missing?  The basic 
activity is comparing the location of the cp in one image to its location 
in the other.  When is that helped by seeing the cp in a different way in 
one image vs. the other?  When the context (from hiding the magnifier) is 
helpful, isn't it needed on both;  When the magnifier itself is helpful, 
isn't it the comparison between the two, which is actually helpful?


>
>

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[T. Modes]

johnfi...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 18:15:24 UTC+1:

> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:48:46 AM UTC-5 T. Modes wrote:
>
>> It is difficult to comment because you are often mixing things. Or as an 
>> example you contradict yourself
>>
>> johnfi...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 15:41:14 
>> UTC+1:
>>
>>>  Hiding would only be temporary: other actions make the magnifier appear 
>>> and "hiding" would not suppress that.
>>
>> and later 
>>
>>> I want the new 'm' key operation to be the only thing that hides the 
>>> magnifier.
>>>
>> It would be hard to split the changes for creating that setting 
> Not a contradiction at all.  I* was* saying 'm' would be the only thing 
> that hides the magnifier, but would not be the only thing that brings the 
> magnifier back once hidden.
>
But I like this behaviour of automatic hiding when needed and I don't want 
to additionally press a key to get this behaviour.

Just to recapitulate how the magnifier work:
a) When a cp is selected (via the list or by clicking on it) the magnifier 
is shown. As soon as the mouse moves over one image it is hidden. -> So no 
need for an additional shortcut IMO. Just move the mouse.
b) The magnifier is then showing again when dragging the selected cp with 
the mouse. When the dragging is finished the magnifier is hidden after 2 s. 
During dragging I think the magnifier is helpful for better selection of 
the position.

So which behaviour is disturbing you?

> It would be hard to split the changes for creating that setting 
You misunderstand me. When the changes requires a new setting then this 
belongs to the same changeset. I meant only don't mix different "features" 
in one changeset.

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[johnfi...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:48:46 AM UTC-5 T. Modes wrote:

>
> The disabling of the magnifier for the 200 % view was added as a feature 
> request. So there are uses which prefer this.
>
I really hate that feature and I don't even get why someone else might like 
it (unlike the timer feature, where I understand the purpose and just don't 
like it).  BUT, that option is not too ugly to include within the choices 
for relative zoom of the magnifier.

  
> Please, one change - one changeset. Do not mix things in one changeset.
>

I'm now intending one change for managing and implementing settings for the 
behavior of the magnifier.  I hope that is self contained enough.

The relative zoom part of that would be immediately testable and even have 
some narrow use case before I commit the change (that I'm already using 
myself) for overall zoom of 400% or 800%.  But most of the reason for 
relative zoom won't exist until 400% and 800% are available for overall 
zoom.

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[hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[johnfi...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:48:46 AM UTC-5 T. Modes wrote:

> It is difficult to comment because you are often mixing things. Or as an 
> example you contradict yourself
>
> johnfi...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 15:41:14 
> UTC+1:
>
>>  Hiding would only be temporary: other actions make the magnifier appear 
>> and "hiding" would not suppress that.
>
> and later 
>
>> I want the new 'm' key operation to be the only thing that hides the 
>> magnifier.
>>
>
Not a contradiction at all.  I* was* saying 'm' would be the only thing 
that hides the magnifier, but would not be the only thing that brings the 
magnifier back once hidden.

But since that suggestion does not seem to fit the needs of others, I will 
drop the idea that 'm' should be the only thing that hides the magnifier.  
I'll need more thought on how the things that hide the 
magnifier should interact with each other. 

I disagree: I like the feature that the magnifier disappear so I have a 
> better view on the whole neighbourhood of the cp. This makes it easier for 
> me the judge the cp.
>

Thanks for telling me in time that I can refine my plans (rather than do 
work I would later undo).

That feature you like, is so inconvenient for others (I'm not alone on this 
one) that a setting is required and I will now sidetrack into creating 
that.  I'm even fine with the default being the way you like it (though I 
suspect more users would prefer it my way). 

>
> Please, one change - one changeset. Do not mix things in one changeset. 
> You can also send patches (diff files) for other people for testing.
>

It would be hard to split the changes for creating that setting (that I now 
understand I need, after previously hoping I wouldn't) from the changes I 
expected to make first, that now include applying that setting.  It 
probably would be ugly to split that from the related magnifier settings 
that I would have done next if this change didn't need a setting.  So I'm 
seem to be forced into the high side of the meaning  of "one change", 
relative to what you maybe happy with for a first commit from someone you 
don't have experience with.  I'll do my best to make it clean and to pull 
in as little as practical of the related planned changes.

I'll use diff files if those are strongly preferred in this group.  But all 
my professional experience in group software development tells me using 
public branches in a source code control system works a lot better than 
emailing diff files.  I assume that anyone who could use a diff file could 
more easily get the full files from the branch and in rare cases that they 
couldn't use files from a branch, they could get the diff from the branch.


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[hugin-ptx] Re: Removing magnifier hiding timer etc. from CPImageCtrl.cpp

[T. Modes]

It is difficult to comment because you are often mixing things. Or as an 
example you contradict yourself

johnfi...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 1. Februar 2022 um 15:41:14 UTC+1:

>  Hiding would only be temporary: other actions make the magnifier appear 
> and "hiding" would not suppress that.

and later 

> I want the new 'm' key operation to be the only thing that hides the 
> magnifier.
>
>  

> I would entirely remove the timer.  It's only purpose is to hide the 
> magnifier.  I see no logic to when that timer is used vs. not used.  Maybe 
> the original intent was to always have that timer (never let the magnifier 
> stay in view for over 2 seconds).  As a user I see* zero* value in timer 
> based hiding of the magnifier.  But if others strongly disagree, (with 
> significantly more work) I could invent a setting to allow that feature to 
> be disabled (rather than take the feature away from everyone).
>
I disagree: I like the feature that the magnifier disappear so I have a 
better view on the whole neighbourhood of the cp. This makes it easier for 
me the judge the cp.
 
 

> With my limited understanding of mercurial, I was able to see the timer 
> feature was added by ippei in commit 91503d5bebff
>
No. This was a major overhaul of the structure. The timer was added in 
changeset 689b688f70f5.


> I also want to remove all other existing logic for hiding the magnifier, 
> such as hiding it when the image itself is zoomed 200%.  
>
The disabling of the magnifier for the 200 % view was added as a feature 
request. So there are uses which prefer this.
 

> I would tend to want to pretest and commit all those and related features 
> all together.  But I have been warned that doing so would make things too 
> hard for whoever reviews/merges my changes. 
>
Please, one change - one changeset. Do not mix things in one changeset. You 
can also send patches (diff files) for other people for testing.

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