Re: [i3] i3-nagbar and keyboard
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 6:20 AM, grubernd wrote: > On 2014-09-21 05:14, Tony Crisci wrote: >> >> Here you go: `bindsym $mod+Escape pkill i3-nagbar`. > > > i have a better hack: > > sudo mv /usr/bin/i3-nagbar /usr/bin/i3-nagbar-no > >> Yes, nobody likes nagbar. > > > and here we have a misunderstanding. i like nagbar, because it would be a > very elegant way of displaying dialogs inside the window manager without > resorting to extra tools like dialog, ncurses, gtk, or whatever. > >> Nagbar is meant to be a teaching tool for new users. > > > ouch. see engineering below.. > >> It appears when you have a syntax error in your config file or duplicate >> binding. It's there to warn you about the default key combination that >> exits the wm so you don't press it on accident for the first time. If >> your config file is free of errors, you should never see it. > > > i am really glad that the designers of most software dont follow your line > of thought. imagine all software would display funky big bars that *do not > follow their own design paradigm* and force you to use a differnt interface > than they usually do. > > >> One thing that I don't like about some desktop environments is that they >> are too talky. There is always something flashing in the corner or some >> popup notification that I don't care about on my screen. i3 is designed >> to be quiet. > > > yes, and that's a good thing. i dont want i3 to talk more. but here's the > thing: i3 already has a method to display user-initiated system dialogs, aka > "the nagbar", but they do not follow the general design paradigm of > keyboard-centered control. and that is the thing i am trying to get across. > i3 doesnt follow it's own rules. > >> There is no other window manager "meta information" that >> needs to be displayed in nagbar other than config errors. This is good >> unix engineering. > > > i dont know too much about good _unix_ engineering, but good engineering > doesnt get in the way of the user and changes behaviour midway. > > mind: nagbar should nag. but in my opinion it should not be the only tool > that requires a very specific type of hardware to be attached to the > computer. that's all i am saying. It doesn’t require a mouse. You can just kill it. Or fix the error in your config file and run “i3 reload”. Or (for the use case of exiting your session) run “i3 exit”, or just shut down your computer, or terminate the X session otherwise. There are plenty of alternatives, but they are not as convenient as just using nagbar when having a mouse attached. Similarly, i3 comes with a resize mode configured by default (keyboard shortcuts), yet resizing with a mouse is typically more convenient. i3’s line of thinking doesn’t dictate the keyboard as the one and only input device in all situations. We encourage you to use whichever input device is the most appropriate. For most window management operations, that’s clearly the keyboard, for resizing that’s most often the mouse, for nagging users that’s clearly the mouse :). Also note that nagbar is _not_ a generic tool to display dialogs that is well integrated into i3. Its purpose really is to nag you about config errors (so that you don’t nag us in our support channels) and before exiting a session accidentally. For the latter, you are expected to eventually change your config to bypass nagbar entirely. I don’t want to shut you up, but after this reply I don’t think there’s a lot to talk about anymore. I get that you don’t like the situation as-is, but the nagbar concept works very well for all other users that I’ve talked to, and it is very unlikely to change. > > cheers, > grubernd -- Best regards, Michael
Re: [i3] i3-nagbar and keyboard
On 2014-09-21 05:14, Tony Crisci wrote: Here you go: `bindsym $mod+Escape pkill i3-nagbar`. i have a better hack: sudo mv /usr/bin/i3-nagbar /usr/bin/i3-nagbar-no Yes, nobody likes nagbar. and here we have a misunderstanding. i like nagbar, because it would be a very elegant way of displaying dialogs inside the window manager without resorting to extra tools like dialog, ncurses, gtk, or whatever. Nagbar is meant to be a teaching tool for new users. ouch. see engineering below.. It appears when you have a syntax error in your config file or duplicate binding. It's there to warn you about the default key combination that exits the wm so you don't press it on accident for the first time. If your config file is free of errors, you should never see it. i am really glad that the designers of most software dont follow your line of thought. imagine all software would display funky big bars that *do not follow their own design paradigm* and force you to use a differnt interface than they usually do. One thing that I don't like about some desktop environments is that they are too talky. There is always something flashing in the corner or some popup notification that I don't care about on my screen. i3 is designed to be quiet. yes, and that's a good thing. i dont want i3 to talk more. but here's the thing: i3 already has a method to display user-initiated system dialogs, aka "the nagbar", but they do not follow the general design paradigm of keyboard-centered control. and that is the thing i am trying to get across. i3 doesnt follow it's own rules. There is no other window manager "meta information" that needs to be displayed in nagbar other than config errors. This is good unix engineering. i dont know too much about good _unix_ engineering, but good engineering doesnt get in the way of the user and changes behaviour midway. mind: nagbar should nag. but in my opinion it should not be the only tool that requires a very specific type of hardware to be attached to the computer. that's all i am saying. cheers, grubernd
Re: [i3] i3-nagbar and keyboard
Here you go: `bindsym $mod+Escape pkill i3-nagbar`. Yes, nobody likes nagbar. But I don't think that there is any reason to change it. Nagbar is meant to be a teaching tool for new users. It appears when you have a syntax error in your config file or duplicate binding. It's there to warn you about the default key combination that exits the wm so you don't press it on accident for the first time. If your config file is free of errors, you should never see it. One thing that I don't like about some desktop environments is that they are too talky. There is always something flashing in the corner or some popup notification that I don't care about on my screen. i3 is designed to be quiet. There is no other window manager "meta information" that needs to be displayed in nagbar other than config errors. This is good unix engineering. On 09/20/2014 10:23 PM, grubernd wrote: On 2014-09-21 01:06, Michael Stapelberg wrote: The nagbar should _nag_ you, and obviously it accomplishes its mission, since you are annoyed enough to write to this mailing list :). Read: this is intentional. ok. well. let's put the - imo quite obvious - use of the nagbar for an exit dialog aside for a moment and consider the more usual case of editing something inside the i3 config and making an error. or lo and behold starting i3 with an error already in the config. if i read that right, it is the intention to force the user to get away from the computer, walk through a convention center, ask everyone if she has a mouse to spare. or walk to the parking lot to the car and dig through the box of odds and ends to see if a mouse is there. or drive to the next electronic market and buy a mouse. or a graphic tablet. not everyone has an external thinkpad keyboard with integrated nipple. all that just to be able to read the error message the fully keyboard enabled window manager is showing in a big red bar but wont let one see until a pointer-enabled HID is attached to the machine. to phrase it in a very blunt way: i consider this rather impolite to force a certain type of HID unto the user that is uneccessary in all other cases. yes, there is a logfile etc, but.. and the above mentioned use case is not made up. i am using computers without a mouse. except for the case that i was so awesome that i did not make an error and did not have to ask a bunch of windows7 laptop users if they had a spare mouse. uh. back to the exit use-case: i have a solution, no harm done. but maybe, just maybe it would be very cool and user-friendly to reconsider the intentional behaviour of the nagbar. because, after all.. it is *the* builtin method into i3 to display meta-messages and dialogs inside the window manager. last time i checked cursor-keys are still available even on apple-keyboards. and shifting focus to the nagbar would be more inline with nagging the user. and more so without breaking usability. just my 2ct. cheers, grubernd
Re: [i3] i3-nagbar and keyboard
On 09/21, grubernd wrote: > On 2014-09-21 01:06, Michael Stapelberg wrote: > >The nagbar should _nag_ you, and obviously it accomplishes its > >mission, since you are annoyed enough to write to this mailing list > >:). Read: this is intentional. > > ok. well. > > to phrase it in a very blunt way: > > i consider this rather impolite to force a certain type of HID unto the user > that is uneccessary in all other cases. > It is impolite. It's nagging. The point is that it serves as a negative incentive toward compulsive behavior (if you make an error message easy to ignore, people will ignore it). If you don't feel you need that sort of thing, then just open your config file and remove the one and only place where the nagbar dialog is. Once you get your config the way you like it you'll never see i3-nagbar again anyway. ;) -- "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
Re: [i3] i3-nagbar and keyboard
On 2014-09-21 01:06, Michael Stapelberg wrote: The nagbar should _nag_ you, and obviously it accomplishes its mission, since you are annoyed enough to write to this mailing list :). Read: this is intentional. ok. well. let's put the - imo quite obvious - use of the nagbar for an exit dialog aside for a moment and consider the more usual case of editing something inside the i3 config and making an error. or lo and behold starting i3 with an error already in the config. if i read that right, it is the intention to force the user to get away from the computer, walk through a convention center, ask everyone if she has a mouse to spare. or walk to the parking lot to the car and dig through the box of odds and ends to see if a mouse is there. or drive to the next electronic market and buy a mouse. or a graphic tablet. not everyone has an external thinkpad keyboard with integrated nipple. all that just to be able to read the error message the fully keyboard enabled window manager is showing in a big red bar but wont let one see until a pointer-enabled HID is attached to the machine. to phrase it in a very blunt way: i consider this rather impolite to force a certain type of HID unto the user that is uneccessary in all other cases. yes, there is a logfile etc, but.. and the above mentioned use case is not made up. i am using computers without a mouse. except for the case that i was so awesome that i did not make an error and did not have to ask a bunch of windows7 laptop users if they had a spare mouse. uh. back to the exit use-case: i have a solution, no harm done. but maybe, just maybe it would be very cool and user-friendly to reconsider the intentional behaviour of the nagbar. because, after all.. it is *the* builtin method into i3 to display meta-messages and dialogs inside the window manager. last time i checked cursor-keys are still available even on apple-keyboards. and shifting focus to the nagbar would be more inline with nagging the user. and more so without breaking usability. just my 2ct. cheers, grubernd
Re: [i3] i3-nagbar and keyboard
The nagbar should _nag_ you, and obviously it accomplishes its mission, since you are annoyed enough to write to this mailing list :). Read: this is intentional. On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 4:04 PM, grubernd wrote: > hi.. > > i found this a rather strange anachronism that the nagbar cant be navigated > with the keyboard. or am i missing something here? > > is there a full HID support for i3-nagbar planned at some point? > > > just for reference: > since i am building a very simplified X11 enviroment only to be run > occassionaly on top of a more or less automated headless box on simple > hardware like raspberry pi or banana pi or similar: yes, i need and want to > exit i3 without shutting down the box. also i want to get by with the least > amount of extra tools. > > i have found an answer to what i am trying to do here: > https://faq.i3wm.org/question/1262/exiting-i3-without-mouse-click/ > > but dmenu doesn't support mouse navigation, doh. > > so i ended up writing a quick python script with a tk yes/no box for this. > > still, the anachronism stands: having a WM with full keyboard support, > except for the nagbar. > > cheers, > grubernd -- Best regards, Michael
