Re: Basic SMP/E question
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/06/2007 at 04:08 PM, Paul Gilmartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: First, the term APAR is dismayingly overloaded. It can be either a problem report or (short for APAR fix) a sort of interim PTF made available in an emergency, prior to official release of a PTF. Or tracking for an SPE? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/06/2007 at 09:11 PM, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Our service provider missed on a critcal PTF (cross memory services), because it was bundled, in an APAR, with 13 others, of which some were PE'd. That is their explanation. I doubt it. It might help if you posted verbatim what they said. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
An apply check will tell you a lot. Do not bypass any hold errors, make sure you use the check, and for a check I would bypass all system holds, SMPE will sort thru everything and give you the information you need. You may still need to go back to IBM to resolve a specific issue. George -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:11 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Basic SMP/E question Our service provider missed on a critcal PTF (cross memory services), because it was bundled, in an APAR, with 13 others, of which some were PE'd. That is their explanation. Since (and I admit it) I have not had the pleasure of working with SMP/E, I do not know: 1. Is their explanation valid? Is it all or nothing? 2. Or, can they apply them (easily) individually? Enquiring minds need to know! They have impacted our schedule for getting through z/OS, IMS and DB2 migrations this year, because we have only so many weekends to do these conversions. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Basic SMP/E question Individual PTFs, APARs, USERMODs, etc. can be selectively applied. That's what I thought. But, they claim it's a lot of work to sift through the APAR and pick out the non-PE'd (and their associated apply chains). SNIP In reading this thread, I keep getting the impression that the APAR lists several PTFs that have the same FMID (product version-release Identifier). And that each APAR addresses more than one issue. Is this the case? Or is it simple APARs listing 1 to say 20 PTFs? In either case, the Vendor should be able to provide you with the good PTFs. Just one man's opinion who has written a few APARs and PTFs over the years. Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:40:09 +, Ted MacNEIL wrote: I'm still confused, though. I think you said that there were 13 PTFs bundled in the APAR, and some of them were PE. I guess I'm not being clear. They were PE'd later, I think. Is this bleeding-edge service? How long has it been from the time the service was applied until it went into production? Was it selected by RSU or by some other method? What BYPASSes were used during the apply? Not being an SMP/E guy, I can't understand it clearly. And, protocol doesn't allow me to talk to the SYSPROGs directly. I have to go through a rep of our service provider, who also doesn't fully understand SMP/E. You have to talk to the salesman? Are you a company employee or do you work for another service provider? It just set my BS detector off! It sounds to me as if your BS detector is working properly. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
Is this bleeding-edge service? Q2-2006 How long has it been from the time the service was applied until it went into production? Too long! Actually, the service wasn't applied at all. That's what caused us to back out and burn our schedule. Was it selected by RSU or by some other method? What BYPASSes were used during the apply? Can't answer that since I can't get to the SYSPROG team. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
You have to talk to the salesman? Are you a company employee or do you work
for another service provider?
Not a salesman.
I'm the technical liasson between us an the service provider.
I'm the 'goto' guy for all things mainframe, for our company, but even I don't
know everything! (8-{}}
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
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Re: Basic SMP/E question
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:30:05 +, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You have to talk to the salesman? Are you a company employee or d
you work for another service provider?
Not a salesman.
I'm the technical liasson between us an the service provider.
I'm the 'goto' guy for all things mainframe, for our company, but
even I don't know everything! (8-{}}
So you are an employee of the company? In that case, I think that
if I were you I'd be asking my boss why I can't talk directly to the
people doing the work, rather than through a translator.
--
Tom Marchant
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Re: Basic SMP/E question
Don't let them shine you with that line!! Yes it's work, but that's just part of the game. That's part of their job, to work. Sheesh. Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 02/06/2007 05:34 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Re: Basic SMP/E question That's what I thought. But, they claim it's a lot of work to sift through the APAR and pick out the non-PE'd (and their associated apply chains). - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
Wow...
I had spent about 13 years with what must be a different service provider.
It was not unheard of to have the technical support person, and in many
cases their manager as well, in front of the customers CIO to explain
themselves.
It would appear to be difficult to move beyond speculation until the right
people speak for themselves without the insulation of an [uninformed]
interpreter.
Tom Chicklon
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Tom Marchant
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Basic SMP/E question
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:30:05 +, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You have to talk to the salesman? Are you a company employee or d
you work for another service provider?
Not a salesman.
I'm the technical liasson between us an the service provider.
I'm the 'goto' guy for all things mainframe, for our company, but
even I don't know everything! (8-{}}
So you are an employee of the company? In that case, I think that
if I were you I'd be asking my boss why I can't talk directly to the
people doing the work, rather than through a translator.
--
Tom Marchant
--
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Re: Basic SMP/E question
In a recent note, Ted MacNEIL said: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:34:37 + Individual PTFs, APARs, USERMODs, etc. can be selectively applied. That's what I thought. But, they claim it's a lot of work to sift through the APAR and pick out the non-PE'd (and their associated apply chains). The disservice provider has your BS detector working overtime. I think what they need to do is: RECEIVE all current service _and_HOLDDATA_. APPLY CHECK SELECT ( ptf-you-need ) GROUPEXTEND . Then browse the SMPOUT to see what SMP/E says. GROUPEXTEND tells SMP/E to follow all PREreq chains backward and all PE chains forward as needed. CHECK tells SMP/E to produce a report but modify no libraries. It ain't as friendly as the typical desktop installer, but it's suitable for everyday use, and it tells you far more about what it did. -- gil -- StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:30:05 +, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have to talk to the salesman? Are you a company employee or do you work for another service provider? Not a salesman. I'm the technical liasson between us an the service provider. Here's another thought -- if you can't get the answers you need from the rep, maybe you can enlist one of your auditors to help. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
So you are an employee of the company? In that case, I think that if I were you I'd be asking my boss why I can't talk directly to the people doing the work, rather than through a translator. Can we talk to level II or higher, automatically? The out-sourcing contract states how we are to interface with the support teams. The 'translator' doesn't care; the SYSPROG team lead does. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
Don't let them shine you with that line!! Yes it's work, but that's just part of the game. That's part of their job, to work. Yes. I didn't mean that they won't do the work. They're just delaying our migration while they do it. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Basic SMP/E question
Our service provider missed on a critcal PTF (cross memory services), because it was bundled, in an APAR, with 13 others, of which some were PE'd. That is their explanation. Since (and I admit it) I have not had the pleasure of working with SMP/E, I do not know: 1. Is their explanation valid? Is it all or nothing? 2. Or, can they apply them (easily) individually? Enquiring minds need to know! They have impacted our schedule for getting through z/OS, IMS and DB2 migrations this year, because we have only so many weekends to do these conversions. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
- Original Message - From: Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:06 PM Subject: Basic SMP/E question Our service provider missed on a critcal PTF (cross memory services), because it was bundled, in an APAR, with 13 others, of which some were PE'd. That is their explanation. Since (and I admit it) I have not had the pleasure of working with SMP/E, I do not know: 1. Is their explanation valid? Is it all or nothing? 2. Or, can they apply them (easily) individually? Enquiring minds need to know! They have impacted our schedule for getting through z/OS, IMS and DB2 migrations this year, because we have only so many weekends to do these conversions. Ted, It depends. Without going through the entire 14 APAR chain, it would be difficult to tell. You could check the extended holddata file against the list of APARs to see if the service provider is correct. For the APAR in question that was not applied, they should tell you exactly: 1. Which pre- or co-req PTF's for the missed APAR were PE, and what APAR(s) would have fixed them. 2. Which superseding PTF's for the missed APAR were PE, and what APAR(s) would have fixed them. Don't allow them to bury the detail, get specifics. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:11:13 +, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Is it all or nothing? 2. Or, can they apply them (easily) individually? The answer to both can be yes. It depends on what you mean by bundled. If it was PRE/CO REQ'd with the PE'd ones, then, yes, it is all or nothing. (Which you should be thankful for them not applying the PE'd ones). If it was individual, then they can be applied seperately. One would think they would look for fixes for the PE'd ones though and get them all applied. Have the APAR handy? We could take a look. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Our service provider missed on a critcal PTF (cross memory services), because it was bundled, in an APAR, with 13 others, of which some were PE'd. That is their explanation. Since (and I admit it) I have not had the pleasure of working with SMP/E, I do not know: 1. Is their explanation valid? Is it all or nothing? 2. Or, can they apply them (easily) individually? Individual PTFs, APARs, USERMODs, etc. can be selectively applied. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
Have the APAR handy? We could take a look. I have been trying to get two things: 1. The meaning of 'bundled'. 2. The APAR/PTF #'s. So far, all our service provider has given me is a soft-shoe and a side-step. I'm not on a witch-hunt; I just want to ensure it doesn't happen again. But, they never own up to their mistakes. It's either our fault or the vendors'. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
Individual PTFs, APARs, USERMODs, etc. can be selectively applied. That's what I thought. But, they claim it's a lot of work to sift through the APAR and pick out the non-PE'd (and their associated apply chains). - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Individual PTFs, APARs, USERMODs, etc. can be selectively applied. That's what I thought. But, they claim it's a lot of work to sift through the APAR and pick out the non-PE'd (and their associated apply chains). But that's why they get the big bucks. If it was easy, then anybody could do it. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
In a recent note, Ted MacNEIL said: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:28:51 + Have the APAR handy? We could take a look. I have been trying to get two things: 1. The meaning of 'bundled'. 2. The APAR/PTF #'s. So far, all our service provider has given me is a soft-shoe and a side-step. I'm not on a witch-hunt; I just want to ensure it doesn't happen again. But, they never own up to their mistakes. It's either our fault or the vendors'. It's not us, is it? (I hope.) First, the term APAR is dismayingly overloaded. It can be either a problem report or (short for APAR fix) a sort of interim PTF made available in an emergency, prior to official release of a PTF. It sounds as if the vendor meant APAR (problem report), and that issue cited several PTFs necessary to fix it, probably because of prerequisite chains. Was this from IBM, with the service provider an intermediary, or was it service on an ISV's product? But I agree with Tom C. -- the service provider shouldn't be making black magic of it. -- gil -- StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
Was this from IBM, with the service provider an intermediary, or was it service on an ISV's product? My original post mentioned that it was a cross-memory PTF. So, this is definitely an IBM PTF/APAR. We're outsourced, so the outsourcer is the 'service provider'. My company has asked me not to mention where I work, nor much about the environment. So, I'm discretely asking for help. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
I'm curious as to which PTF. It's been a long time since I've seen more than three or maybe four APARs bundled into a single fix for a core operating system component. One APAR per PTF is 'standard', two not infrequent. But 13? Really? What I suspect is that a chain of PTFs was blocked by a PE somewhere along the line. That's not a rare event. At any given time, there are lots of PEs in the maintenance stream, and any PTF that depends (PRE, REQ) directly or indirectly on a held sysmod will not install unless explicit action is taken get around it. There are generally two ways around a PE: - BYPASS the PE APAR. Very dangerous, not to be undertaken without explicit instruction from Support Center, and even then it's risky business. Prepare your explanation in advance in case you're called on the carpet. - Obtain a fixtest for the PE APAR. Safer by far than BYPASS, but you're still taking a chance that the early fix code is not solid. A step not to be taken lightly, but it's not illegitimate, just dicey. All of this depends on knowing that some heroic action is required. I very seldom do anything extraordinary in this regard. If a PTF is held, I let it--and any dependents--sit on ice until the PE is resolved by an official PTF. I'm hard put to recall a situation like the one implied, where a serious problem results from the inability to install a HIPER PTF that was held up by a PE chain. The situation is certainly possible, just not highly likely in actual practice. Are you feeling lucky today? Be sure to count the shots. . . JO.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 626-302-7535 Office 323-715-0595 Mobile [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 02/06/2007 01:11 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Basic SMP/E question Our service provider missed on a critcal PTF (cross memory services), because it was bundled, in an APAR, with 13 others, of which some were PE'd. That is their explanation. Since (and I admit it) I have not had the pleasure of working with SMP/E, I do not know: 1. Is their explanation valid? Is it all or nothing? 2. Or, can they apply them (easily) individually? Enquiring minds need to know! They have impacted our schedule for getting through z/OS, IMS and DB2 migrations this year, because we have only so many weekends to do these conversions. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Basic SMP/E question
On Feb 6, 2007, at 7:08 PM, Skip Robinson wrote: SNIP - Obtain a fixtest for the PE APAR. Safer by far than BYPASS, but you're still taking a chance that the early fix code is not solid. A step not to be taken lightly, but it's not illegitimate, just dicey. All of this depends on knowing that some heroic action is required. I very seldom do anything extraordinary in this regard. If a PTF is held, I let it--and any dependents--sit on ice until the PE is resolved by an official PTF. I'm hard put to recall a situation like the one implied, where a serious problem results from the inability to install a HIPER PTF that was held up by a PE chain. The situation is certainly possible, just not highly likely in actual practice. Are you feeling lucky today? Be sure to count the shots. ---SNIP Skip, I agree but with a maybe many years ago I was an early on user of PSF. I think on any given day I had 4-5 (or more) open PMR's with PSF. I was getting to know the people in PSF land extremely well. When they offered an APAR up I could tell by how their voice how sure they were that a: this would fix the issue b: It was not going to affect anything else. I could not do that for other areas (DFP etc). So to me its knowledge (and expertise) of the people at the other end made the decision for me easier. I would also be frank with my boss about the likelihood of this not impacting production. I was right more often than I was wrong, or if I was wrong it was not a big impact. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
