Re: Decimal FP

[David Andrews]

On Wed, 2006-11-29 at 08:44 +0100, Birger Heede wrote:
> I think Mike's writeup is a very good intro:
> http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/

It is indeed, with a treasure trove of references to boot.  Thanks for
the pointer.

I've wondered sometimes why we never saw hardware support for rational
numbers.  Probably the kicker is the requirement for arbitrary-length
integers?  Too bad.

But I'd guess there's no reason you couldn't implement floating-point
"registers" as rational numbers.  The writeup referenced above says in
part:
"The working precision of the arithmetic is not
necessarily determined by the representation,
but may be freely selectable within the limits
of the representation as required for the problem
being solved. Implementations may provide very
high precision if they wish."
So the "registers" could be implemented under the covers as rationals,
and then externalized in DFP representation when a store comes along.
It would be nice to set a condition code at that time to let the unwary
know whether a precision error occurred during the store.

-- 
David Andrews
A. Duda and Sons, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:26:20 +, john gilmore wrote:
> 
> In the end pandering to clots, however compelling the arguments of the
> marketing VP for doing so may seem to be, is always ill-advised.
> 
In celebration of the unveiling of Decimal Floating Point, I'll return
to this, which I've been pondering for weeks.

Is Decimal FP mostly the product of wishful thinking that the magnitude
range of floating point can be combined with the accounting precision
of packed decimal?  Has a marketing VP subscribed to a clot's belief that
it will enable him to take the price of a dozen eggs in dollars; convert
to euros, then shekels, then the price of a single egg in yuan, then
back to a dozen in dollars and be assured of getting the original
number exactly?  Not so.

I glanced at the document and, in fairness, it provides numerous rounding
conventions that an accountant might wish to use.  Will this be productive?
Will the control of rounding be the aspect more valuable than floating
point per se?

When will COBOL and PL/I support DFP?

--gil
-- 
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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Birger Heede]

I think Mike's writeup is a very good intro:

http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/

Birger Heede
IBM, GBS Denmark

Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:26:20 +, john gilmore wrote:

In the end pandering to clots, however compelling the arguments of the
marketing VP for doing so may seem to be, is always ill-advised.


In celebration of the unveiling of Decimal Floating Point, I'll return
to this, which I've been pondering for weeks.

Is Decimal FP mostly the product of wishful thinking that the magnitude
range of floating point can be combined with the accounting precision
of packed decimal?  Has a marketing VP subscribed to a clot's belief that
it will enable him to take the price of a dozen eggs in dollars; convert
to euros, then shekels, then the price of a single egg in yuan, then
back to a dozen in dollars and be assured of getting the original
number exactly?  Not so.

I glanced at the document and, in fairness, it provides numerous rounding
conventions that an accountant might wish to use.  Will this be productive?
Will the control of rounding be the aspect more valuable than floating
point per se?

When will COBOL and PL/I support DFP?

--gil


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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:57 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)
> 



> 
> When will COBOL and PL/I support DFP?
> 
> --gil

Oh, please, don't use DFP for this new facility. DFP means Data Facility
Product. We don't want to start up the Acronym Wars again, do we?
.

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[john gilmore]

I'm afraid that there is no getting away from DFP and a designation of 
Decimal FP.  It is already used heavily in the preliminary architecture 
document, SA23-2232-00;  and parallelism with HFP (hexadecimal FP) and BFP 
(Binary FP) make it inescapable.


John Gilmore
Ashland, MA 01721-1817
USA

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Howard Brazee]

On 29 Nov 2006 10:53:47 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John)
wrote:

>Oh, please, don't use DFP for this new facility. DFP means Data Facility
>Product. We don't want to start up the Acronym Wars again, do we?
>.

Don't use acronyms at all.   Make up a new word (is CICS still an
acronym (or has it gone the way LASER went)?   Was SPOOL *ever* an
acronym?)

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Tom Marchant]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:11:10 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote:

>   Was SPOOL *ever* an
>acronym?)
>

Simultaneous Peripheral Operation On-Line

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Was SPOOL *ever* an acronym?

Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.

Back when "Online" was two words.


When in doubt.
PANIC!!  

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[(IBM Mainframe Discussion List)]

 
 
In a message dated 11/29/2006 3:29:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, e a  
macneil writes:

>Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.
>Back when "Online" was two words.
Now it is not only two words but also it has been verbed; e.g., "The  
operator onlined the volume."  I read this splendid sentence in an IBM  problem 
description ca. 15 years ago.  Apparently there is no word  which cannot be 
verbed.
 
Bill  Fairchild

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't  mean politics 
won't take an interest in you." [Pericles; ca. 430  B.C.]




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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Arthur T.]

On 29 Nov 2006 10:53:47 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main 
(Message-ID:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote:


Oh, please, don't use DFP for this new facility. DFP means 
Data Facility
Product. We don't want to start up the Acronym Wars again, 
do we?

.


 In 1989 a well-known hacker was asked what the 
biggest problem of computing in the 1990s would be.  He 
replied, "There are only 17,000 three letter acronyms."


 At least it's not being done on purpose, as DSS is 
rumored to have been.



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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[J R]

Was SPOOL *ever* an acronym?


Evidently, you and Ted were the only ones not to see the rhetorical nature 
of that question.




From: Tom Marchant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:22:00 -0600

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:11:10 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote:

>   Was SPOOL *ever* an
>acronym?)
>

Simultaneous Peripheral Operation On-Line

--
Tom Marchant



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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Howard Brazee]

On 29 Nov 2006 13:37:33 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur T.) wrote:

>  In 1989 a well-known hacker was asked what the 
>biggest problem of computing in the 1990s would be.  He 
>replied, "There are only 17,000 three letter acronyms."

As long as we don't demand uniqueness, the number is unlimited.   And
we don't demand uniqueness.

Of course, we don't even need our TLAs to be Three Letter Acronyms.
The non-computing world has CDs in their bank and on their stereos.

I was working with some people and we were considering starting a new
company.   Most of the guys wanted to name it with a TLA.   After all,
it worked for IBM and EDS.No, that's not why IBM and EDS are
successful.  Don't confuse customers with generic names.Banks
like "Key" and "Compass" are easier to remember than "First National".

And don't confuse users with TLAs in our instructions.   Sure they can
learn our jargon - but it isn't necessary.

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 11/29/2006
   at 02:11 PM, Howard Brazee said:

>Don't use acronyms at all.   Make up a new word (is CICS still an
>acronym (or has it gone the way LASER went)?   Was SPOOL *ever* an
>acronym?)

Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.

--
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 ISO position; see 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Howard Brazee]

On 13 Dec 2006 04:56:41 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Shmuel
Metz , Seymour J.) wrote:

>>Don't use acronyms at all.   Make up a new word (is CICS still an
>>acronym (or has it gone the way LASER went)?   Was SPOOL *ever* an
>>acronym?)
>
>Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.

I know that's what IBM says it meant.   I don't believe them, I think
SPOOL always meant spool.

Anybody ever spell it out the way Americans tend to spell out CICS?

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>>Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.

>I know that's what IBM says it meant.
>I don't believe them, I think SPOOL always meant spool.

I don't know about that.
The first time I heard it was in the mid-1970's (in University) and I was told, 
then, that was what it stood for.

If it were to be coined today, it would be SPOO, since Online is now one word.

Of course, if it were spoo, it would have to be aged, because only Narns eat 
fresh spoo.

When in doubt.
PANIC!!  

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Howard Brazee]

On 13 Dec 2006 13:24:33 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ted MacNEIL)
wrote:

>>I know that's what IBM says it meant.
>>I don't believe them, I think SPOOL always meant spool.
>
>I don't know about that.
>The first time I heard it was in the mid-1970's (in University) and I was 
>told, then, that was what it stood for.

Me too.   But since even then it meant "spool", it was obvious that it
was retro-fitted into an acronym.

>If it were to be coined today, it would be SPOO, since Online is now one word.

They'd find some other "L" word to make it mean SPOOL.
maybe:
Simultaneous Peripheral Operations Online Leveling.

Of course CoBOL doesn't fit the standard acronym bit of one letter per
word.

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>CoBOL doesn't fit the standard acronym

My memory is failing me on this one.

I thought it was:
Common
Oriented
Business
Operating
Language

So, you're saying:
COmmon
Business
Operating
Language

?

When in doubt.
PANIC!!  

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Kirk Talman]

First time I heard it was at Case Institute of Technology in 1963-4 in 
reference to the Univac 1107.  Don't remember seeing its meaning 
specified, but datacenter users knew what it meant.  Spool device was a 
drum which internally looked like a spool.

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 12/13/2006 
04:53:39 PM:

> They'd find some other "L" word to make it mean SPOOL.
> maybe:
> Simultaneous Peripheral Operations Online Leveling.
 


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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Kirk Talman]

COmmon
Business
Oriented
Language

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 12/13/2006 
05:03:22 PM:

> I thought it was:
> Common
> Oriented
> Business
> Operating
> Language
> 
> So, you're saying:
> COmmon
> Business
> Operating
> Language


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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 12/13/2006 4:03:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

specified, but datacenter users knew what it meant.  Spool device  was a 
drum which internally looked like a  spool.




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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Thompson, Steve (SCI TW)]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

>>Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.

>I know that's what IBM says it meant.
>I don't believe them, I think SPOOL always meant spool.

I don't know about that.
The first time I heard it was in the mid-1970's (in University) and I
was told, then, that was what it stood for.

If it were to be coined today, it would be SPOO, since Online is now one
word.


If I remember correctly, that was what it was called on a Burroughs
B-series system.

Later,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Gregory, Gary G]

What about DUMP?  Back in the 80's I was attending an XA introduction
class and the IBM'er teaching the class stated it was an acronym that
stood for:

Display 
User 
Memory 
Program 

Maybe something else left over from the System/360 days, who knows? :-)

Regards,

Gary Garland Gregory, MS
Senior Software Engineer
BrightStor Resource Management
CA, Inc.


If it were to be coined today, it would be SPOO, since Online is now one
word.


If I remember correctly, that was what it was called on a Burroughs
B-series system.

Later,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Chris Mason]

Howard

I seem to remember SPOOL meant "Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line"
as far back as the late '60s, this being the limit of my knowledge of such
matters and so it could be even older.

That being said, only the "gray beards" in the list are going to be
authorities on this one - of course, you could be one.

Chris Mason

- Original Message - 
From: "Howard Brazee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 2006 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)


> On 13 Dec 2006 04:56:41 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Shmuel
> Metz , Seymour J.) wrote:
>
> >>Don't use acronyms at all.   Make up a new word (is CICS still an
> >>acronym (or has it gone the way LASER went)?   Was SPOOL *ever* an
> >>acronym?)
> >
> >Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.
>
> I know that's what IBM says it meant.   I don't believe them, I think
> SPOOL always meant spool.
>
> Anybody ever spell it out the way Americans tend to spell out CICS?

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[J R]

From: Chris Mason I seem to remember SPOOL meant "Simultaneous Peripheral 
Operations On Line"


I think we all acknowledge that SPOOL was contrived
to mean "Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line".
The doubt expressed within this thread relates to whether
anyone ever really thought of it as an acronym or
were we merely using the English noun/verb with
the same connotation.



From: Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:07:08 +0100

Howard

I seem to remember SPOOL meant "Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line"
as far back as the late '60s, this being the limit of my knowledge of such
matters and so it could be even older.

That being said, only the "gray beards" in the list are going to be
authorities on this one - of course, you could be one.

Chris Mason

- Original Message -
From: "Howard Brazee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 2006 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)


> On 13 Dec 2006 04:56:41 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Shmuel
> Metz , Seymour J.) wrote:
>
> >>Don't use acronyms at all.   Make up a new word (is CICS still an
> >>acronym (or has it gone the way LASER went)?   Was SPOOL *ever* an
> >>acronym?)
> >
> >Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line.
>
> I know that's what IBM says it meant.   I don't believe them, I think
> SPOOL always meant spool.
>
> Anybody ever spell it out the way Americans tend to spell out CICS?



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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Howard Brazee]

On 13 Dec 2006 21:08:08 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chris Mason)
wrote:

>That being said, only the "gray beards" in the list are going to be
>authorities on this one - of course, you could be one.

My beard is still a bit gray - but is close to white.

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
> 
> >CoBOL doesn't fit the standard acronym
> 
> My memory is failing me on this one.
> 
> I thought it was:
> Common
> Oriented
> Business
> Operating
> Language
> 
> So, you're saying:
> COmmon
> Business
> Operating
> Language

COmmon Business Oriented Language

-jc-

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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Greg Shirey]

Since this thread hasn't drifted far enough off-topic, I'll just point out
that, according to wikipedia, SPOOL is a "backronym."  (or bacronym)

"A backronym is created when one constructs a phrase that has, as its
acronym, an existing short word. There are both official and generally
serious, as well as unofficial and often humorous, backronyms. When a
backronym is peddled as the origin of a word, it is often an example of
false etymology; when widely believed, it may have the status of a folk
etymology; but more usually it is intended and understood as a joke."
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backronym

Greg Shirey
Ben E. Keith Company 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of J R
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 7:41 AM

I think we all acknowledge that SPOOL was contrived
to mean "Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line".
The doubt expressed within this thread relates to whether
anyone ever really thought of it as an acronym or
were we merely using the English noun/verb with
the same connotation.



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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Patrick . Falcone]

Even the acronym finder isn't quite sure..but does agree with 
most. I seem to remember Output back in my earlier ops daze.

http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?Acronym=spool&string=exact




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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)






>From: Chris Mason I seem to remember SPOOL meant "Simultaneous Peripheral 

>Operations On Line"

I think we all acknowledge that SPOOL was contrived
to mean "Simultaneous Peripheral Operations On Line".
The doubt expressed within this thread relates to whether
anyone ever really thought of it as an acronym or
were we merely using the English noun/verb with
the same connotation.


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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on
12/13/2006
   at 06:37 PM, "Gregory, Gary G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>What about DUMP?  Back in the 80's I was attending an XA introduction
>class and the IBM'er teaching the class stated it was an acronym that
>stood for:

>Display 
>User 
>Memory 
>Program

He was shining you on.

>Maybe something else left over from the System/360 days, who knows?
>:-)

Well before the S/360. We talked about dumps on the 650.
 
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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 12/13/2006
   at 08:40 AM, Howard Brazee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I know that's what IBM says it meant.   I don't believe them,

It's what was in the documentation in 1960. I never saw or heard a
suggestion that it was a retronym.
 
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 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 12/13/2006
   at 05:42 PM, Ed Finnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>FASTRAN II,

ITYM FASTRAND. Ironically, despite the name it was the slow[1] drum,
the fast one being the Flying Head drum.

[1] Moving heads instead of head per track.
 
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Re: Decimal FP (was: vendor JCL) Now COBOL

[Alan C. Field]

Neither: 

COBOL (Common Business Oriented Language)




>CoBOL doesn't fit the standard acronym

My memory is failing me on this one.

I thought it was:
Common
Oriented
Business
Operating
Language

So, you're saying:
COmmon
Business
Operating
Language






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