Re: My first mainframe experience

[Mark Post]

>>> On 5/29/2011 at 04:41 PM, Ed Gould  wrote: 
> I have no experiance on LINUX but would guess it does not come with a FORTRAN 
> 
> compiler.

Clearly.  The GNU Compiler Collection (gcc) comes standard with a FORTRAN 77 
implementation.


Mark Post

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Re: Continuations (was: My first mainframe experience}

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Shane Ginnane wrote:
>I coulda sworn you'd said that before ... ;-)

He said that statement on IBM-MAIM at least 15 times since 2008. ;-)

He is not alone when it comes with hating JCL! ;-)

In movie Hook: Captain Hook spit out, on the harbour, his hate feeling for 
Peter Pan: 

'I hate, I hate, I hate JCL!' ... oops change 'JCL' to 'Peter Pan'  ;-D

;-D

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: Continuations (was: My first mainframe experience}

[Shane Ginnane]

I coulda sworn you'd said that before ... ;-)

Shane ...


On Tue, May 31st, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

> I hate JCL!

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Continuations (was: My first mainframe experience}

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 31 May 2011 01:23:36 -0400, Gerhard Postpischil wrote:
>
> ..., but I did find an error. When a DC
>(or other) contained a text string with a doubled quote, and the
>first landed in column 71, ASM G would consider that the end of
>string, and treat the continuation card as comments. That made
>for problems as that program was distributed with a collection
>of macros resembling a stage 1, and I had to add extra checks
>for lengths of generated strings and finagle.
>
Compatibility.  JCL still suffers the same misbehavior.  Likewise
symbol names must not be split over a continuation.  At least the
latter is documented.  Either is a major nuisance when trying to
generate JCL as output of a program.

I suppose that in the day, the cost of a few bytes of storage for
the lookbehind needed to solve the problem was considered
prohibitive; the greater evil; nowadays a solution would introduce
incompatibilities.

I hate JCL!

-- gil

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Gerhard Postpischil]

On 5/31/2011 1:08 AM, Ed Gould wrote:

We had also semi looked at assembler G. We had a batch initiator set up for
assembler H compiles (long story and probably only semi interesting). The people
who developed this system and I am honestly not sure on how to explain it but I
will try and shorten it to easy understanding (I can try and answer questions
but memory and 30 years doesn't help).



The assembler H (and G) were the only assemblers that could handle the extreme
macros that these "programs" were created by. We tried the XF and the subsequent
and they could not come close to handling these macros.


We used the G assembler for programs that were laden with 
macros. One of my projects had more than 100 modules, each 
taking about 5 or so minutes to assemble with F and XF. Under G 
they each ran under a minute, but I did find an error. When a DC 
(or other) contained a text string with a doubled quote, and the 
first landed in column 71, ASM G would consider that the end of 
string, and treat the continuation card as comments. That made 
for problems as that program was distributed with a collection 
of macros resembling a stage 1, and I had to add extra checks 
for lengths of generated strings and finagle.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Ed Gould]

Gerhard:

We had also semi looked at assembler G. We had a batch initiator set up for 
assembler H compiles (long story and probably only semi interesting). The 
people 
who developed this system and I am honestly not sure on how to explain it but I 
will try and shorten it to easy understanding (I can try and answer questions 
but memory and 30 years doesn't help).
We had a subsidary that did market research and all these companies would send 
us sales data.
We would Have these clerks essentially type up inquiries. The inquiries were 
request for reports says how well product x did in market y during certain 
dates. These inquieries were essentially assembler macros. They were submitted 
as batch compiles. The output was a "load module" that was at a later time used 
to run the inquiry (as a subtask) in a batch job. These jobs (two types) would 
run the inquiries and would take 6-7 days to finish. 
This part I am not clear on but the number of subtasks were 8-12 (I could be 
wrong) but you get the idea these were monstor cpu hogs and would essentially 
take all the cpu you could throw at them.
The assembler H (and G) were the only assemblers that could handle the extreme 
macros that these "programs" were created by. We tried the XF and the 
subsequent 
and they could not come close to handling these macros.

Ed





From: Gerhard Postpischil 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 4:09:26 PM
Subject: Re: My first mainframe experience

On 5/29/2011 4:41 PM, Ed Gould wrote:
> My memory is iffy here but IIRC both (three) source programs had to be babied 
>to
> work in the FORTRAN G1 that we had. I think waterloo had a FORTRAN compiler 
but
> we were semi afraid that they wouldn't be to good at support. Can anyone 
>confirm
> the Waterloo Fortran?

At AMS we had WATFOR, and later WATFIV. I only used them for Star Trek 
(rarely), 
but we actually had customers that requested them. I thought they were true 
compilers, but the version extant in the file area is a (student type) batch 
system, though perfectly usable for compile and go jobs.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

ps2...@yahoo.com (Ed Gould) writes:
> Hehe Gerhard, obviously a type that of course should have been 25 years ago.
> I have no experiance on LINUX but would guess it does not come with a FORTRAN 
> compiler.
> My memory is iffy here but IIRC both (three) source programs had to be babied 
> to 
> work in the FORTRAN G1 that we had. I think waterloo had a FORTRAN compiler 
> but 
> we were semi afraid that they wouldn't be to good at support. Can anyone 
> confirm 
> the Waterloo Fortran?

mentions careful re-ordering of stage-2 sysgen that resulting improving
student job thruput by nearly factor of 3 times (careful arm seek
positioning)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#44 My first mainframe experience

student jobs had run approx. second elapsed time under tape-to-tape
ibsys on 709. moving student jobs to 360/67 (running as 360/65) with MFT
... was well over a minute (3 step fortran g compile, link-edit and go).
Adding HASP got it down under a minute per student job.

old post with part of presentation i gave at aug68 share meeting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#18

had gotten student jobs to little over 11seconds (with careful ordering
of files & pds members). other trivia ... as part of recrafting stage2
sysgen also allowed me to do it in production job stream.

it wasn't until waterloo watfor that student jobs got back down to 709
IBSYS thruput. watfor ran as its own monitor ... taking card tray of
large number of student jobs (as single job step) ... compiling each
student job into "in-memory" allocated storage area, executing it, and
then doing the next student job. supposedly watfor could compile
something like 20,000 "cards" per minute on 360/65(with actual execution
of typical student jobs being minimal). watfor/watfiv, etc (also
mentions later work in mid-80s for running in ibm/pc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WATFIV

common on linux systems is GCC ... which comes with a large number of
different (language) front-ends and backends ... wiki reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Compiler_Collection

from above:

Originally named the GNU C Compiler, because it only handled the C
programming language, GCC 1.0 was released in 1987, and the compiler was
extended to compile C++ in December of that year.[1] Front ends were
later developed for Fortran, Pascal, Objective-C, Java, and Ada, among
others.[7]

... snip ...

also from above:

The standard compiler release 4.6 includes front ends for C (gcc), C++
(g++), Java (gcj), Ada (GNAT), Objective-C (gobjc), Objective-C++
(gobjc++) and Fortran (gfortran).[16] Also available, but not in
standard are Go (gccgo), Modula-2, Modula-3, Pascal (gpc), PL/I, D
(gdc), Mercury, and VHDL (ghdl).[17] A popular parallel language
extension, OpenMP, is also supported.

The Fortran front end was g77 before version 4.0, which only supports
FORTRAN 77. In newer versions, g77 is dropped in favor of the new
gfortran front end that supports Fortran 95 and parts of Fortran 2003 as
well.[18] As the later Fortran standards incorporate the F77 standard,
standards-compliant F77 code is also standards-compliant F90/95 code,
and so can be compiled without trouble in gfortran.

... snip ... 

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 29 May 2011 13:41:53 -0700, Ed Gould wrote:
>
>Hehe Gerhard, obviously a type that of course should have been 25 years ago.
>I have no experiance on LINUX but would guess it does not come with a FORTRAN
>compiler.
>
http://www.nikhef.nl/~templon/fortran.html

-- gil

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Gerhard Postpischil]

On 5/29/2011 4:41 PM, Ed Gould wrote:

My memory is iffy here but IIRC both (three) source programs had to be babied to
work in the FORTRAN G1 that we had. I think waterloo had a FORTRAN compiler but
we were semi afraid that they wouldn't be to good at support. Can anyone confirm
the Waterloo Fortran?


At AMS we had WATFOR, and later WATFIV. I only used them for 
Star Trek (rarely), but we actually had customers that requested 
them. I thought they were true compilers, but the version extant 
in the file area is a (student type) batch system, though 
perfectly usable for compile and go jobs.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Ed Gould]

On 5/29/2011 2:10 AM, Ed Gould wrote:
> You can also play adventure on IBM (TSO) we used to spend hours on it. The
> programmer who got it working gave a map out and spoiled the fun.
> You could go into the cave and get (whatever the item was) and get out in 3 
> or 
>4
> moves (IIRC).
> It was a lot of fun:)

> I used to have the source  but lost it 125 years ago. Alas it was in a
> cartridge.

The file sections of several Hercules groups have source for Adventure, Star 
Trek, Klingon (Star Trek from the other aspect), and a few other games. Most do 
not work out of the box, and need some fiddling, but presumably less than 125 
years worth 

Hehe Gerhard, obviously a type that of course should have been 25 years ago.
I have no experiance on LINUX but would guess it does not come with a FORTRAN 
compiler.
My memory is iffy here but IIRC both (three) source programs had to be babied 
to 
work in the FORTRAN G1 that we had. I think waterloo had a FORTRAN compiler but 
we were semi afraid that they wouldn't be to good at support. Can anyone 
confirm 
the Waterloo Fortran?

Ed 

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

lindy.mayfi...@ssf.sas.com (Lindy Mayfield) writes:
> I seem to recall one OS had a command to crash the computer.  Kill
> command or some such.  Took the fun out of everything I guess, or I
> perhaps that was their intention.

internally, in the 70s&80s, large percentage of systems ran vm ... that
had constant system activity monitoring ... conventions dating back to
mid-60s with cp40 and cp67. as a result, there built up quite a large
body of information about system configurations and workload
profiles. misc.  past posts mentioning science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

as part of various performance work at the science center (some of which
eventually matured into capacity planning) ... built automated logon at
system startup to initialize synthetic workloads for benchmarking
purposes. part of the performancing modeling work at the science center
was analytical model done in APL. This was eventually made available on
HONE (online virtual machine worldwide sales&marketing support) as the
"performance predictor" ... where sales & SEs could characterize
customer configuration and workload and then ask "what if" questions
about what would happen if hardware configuration &/or workload was
changed. misc. past posts mentioning HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone

i used the autolog startup & command for extensive benchmarking leading
up to release of my (dynamic adaptive) resource manager. part of the
process could include automatically building a new kernel, crashing (the
current system) & rebooting the new kernel, running benchmark ... and
then repeating the process automatically thousands of times. Final
sequence for release of my resource manager invovled 2000 automated
benchmarks that took three months elapsed time to run.

For this final sequence, the configuration and workload profiles were
preselected (as representive of all the internal & customer systems that
had information on) for the first 1000 benchmarks. For the final 1000
benchmarks a specially modified version of the "performance predictor"
was used to select configuration and workload profiles, predict the
result, run the benchmark, compare the predicted and benchmark results,
and then repeat process.

misc. past posts mentioning performance modeling and benchmarking
work from the 70s
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#bench

a couple old emails about porting bunch of cp67 code to vm370 and then
supporting "csc/vm" system for internal distribution:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email731212
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750102
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750430

above mentions autolog command that I had originally done for the
benchmarking process. cp67 already had automatic kernel reboot after
system crash ... but it came up (automatically) just enabled for
(manual) logins. As more and more services were done as service virtual
machines (currently sometimes referred to as "virtual appliances"), just
having system back up for login wasn't sufficient ... all the "service
virtual machines" had to be brought up also. the work I had done for
automated benchmark increasingly became used for automated restart of
the service virtual machines.

the above also mentions SPM command which was used for various automated
operator mechanisms ... i.e. a (disconnected service) virtual machine
could have anything that would show on physical terminal ... available
to software (it was also used for multi-user spacewar implementation)
... SPM had originally been done for CP67 at the Pisa science center
(and converted to vm370 at one of the POK datacenters).

recent posts in this thread:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#41 My first mainframe experience
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#43 My first mainframe experience
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#44 My first mainframe experience
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#45 My first mainframe experience

adventure had been done in fortran on pdp10 ... and was available on the
stanford (pdp10) system. 
http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/e_downloads.html

my impression was somebody at Tymshare (provider of commercial online
vm370 timesharing services) had copied it (fortran version) to Tymshare
pdp10 and then got in running on Tymshare vm370/cms system.  Tymshare
also made their system available to SHARE for online computer
conferencing (as VMSHARE) starting in Aug76: 
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/

triva ... Stanford, HONE datacenter and Tymshare were all within couple
miles of each other. I set up process for Tymshare to mail me monthly
tapes of everything on VMSHARE (later included PCSHARE) and I would make
it available on the internal network hosted on number of internal
systems (including HONE).

Adventure was also ported to stanford orvyl system ... aka a number of
univ. had been sold 360/67 to run 

Re: My first mainframe experience (was: PF9 Swap question)

[Lindy Mayfield]

I'm quite sure it was VAX that I played on.  It's been a while, but I think 
that the characters scrolled on the screen.  (Though I can do that  now in 
ISPF, make an automatic scrolling screen), I doubt that could be done then.

And, yes, star trek, i played that, too.

You can find the source online, actually, just by doing some googling.  

I really didn't put _that_ much time into Adventure.  I don't really like 
games, but I loved hacking operating systems, like VM we had back then.  (And I 
know you know what I mean by hacking.)  

I seem to recall one OS had a command to crash the computer.  Kill command or 
some such.  Took the fun out of everything I guess, or I perhaps that was their 
intention.

But this shows that I had really no idea what I was doing:  Many files I could 
browse, Execs, and other source, but I would browse these totally 
unintelligible modules, and had no idea what they were.

I did some programming, stupid stuff, with Waterloo Basic.  I pretty much hated 
basic then, but as the years grow on, I hate it more.  (I apologize to those 
who thin Basic is "WAY Coool.")  But I loved EXEC2.
__
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Ed 
Gould [ps2...@yahoo.com]
Sent: 29 May 2011 09:10
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: My first mainframe experience (was: PF9 Swap question)


From: Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
SNIP---
>You could play adventure on the VAX machines.



Lindy:

You can also play adventure on IBM (TSO) we used to spend hours on it. The
programmer who got it working gave a map out and spoiled the fun.
You could go into the cave and get (whatever the item was) and get out in 3 or 4
moves (IIRC).
It was a lot of fun:)
I guess we were easily amused. The other time killer was star trek as were
several other games.
The only reason we had the FORTRAN G1 compiler was that we were trying to bring
back a outside time sharing user.
The person who was responsible was the sad blond type and I had to hold her hand
quite a bit.
I used to have the source  but lost it 125 years ago. Alas it was in a
cartridge.

Ed

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Gerhard Postpischil]

On 5/29/2011 2:10 AM, Ed Gould wrote:

You can also play adventure on IBM (TSO) we used to spend hours on it. The
programmer who got it working gave a map out and spoiled the fun.
You could go into the cave and get (whatever the item was) and get out in 3 or 4
moves (IIRC).
It was a lot of fun:)



I used to have the source  but lost it 125 years ago. Alas it was in a
cartridge.


The file sections of several Hercules groups have source for 
Adventure, Star Trek, Klingon (Star Trek from the other aspect), 
and a few other games. Most do not work out of the box, and need 
some fiddling, but presumably less than 125 years worth 



Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: My first mainframe experience (was: PF9 Swap question)

[Ed Gould]

From: Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
SNIP---
>You could play adventure on the VAX machines.  



Lindy:

You can also play adventure on IBM (TSO) we used to spend hours on it. The 
programmer who got it working gave a map out and spoiled the fun.
You could go into the cave and get (whatever the item was) and get out in 3 or 
4 
moves (IIRC).
It was a lot of fun:)
I guess we were easily amused. The other time killer was star trek as were 
several other games.
The only reason we had the FORTRAN G1 compiler was that we were trying to bring 
back a outside time sharing user.
The person who was responsible was the sad blond type and I had to hold her 
hand 
quite a bit.
I used to have the source  but lost it 125 years ago. Alas it was in a 
cartridge.

Ed

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<4ff9936e7708d445a1c50e882ea37f790893953...@025-namsg-03.025d.mgd.msft.net>,
on 05/27/2011
   at 10:17 AM, "Petersen, Jim"  said:

>How about 2260's was a terminal control unit for terminals which only
>had 12 lines by 80

The 2260 was the display, and came in two sizes. As I recall the the
smaller 2260 was only 40 characters wide and the controller was a
2848.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: My first mainframe experience (was: PF9 Swap question)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <0377b9a583fd0e4aacd676ee33ee994b49ec2...@sdkmail13.emea.sas.com>,
on 05/27/2011
   at 12:23 AM, Lindy Mayfield  said:

>then i got it wrong, 3270.  i don't remember all the numbers.  3174
>comes to mind.  4341 comes to mind.

The 3174 was a controller, replacing the 3274.

The 4341 was a processor, comparable to a 370/158 in power but with
less weight and less power consumption.

>But also I used some "word processing" program to do my university
>papers.  I forget what program that was.

Probably SCRIPT, either Waterloo or DCF.

>You could play adventure on the VAX machines.  

And on the 4341, although you may not have compiled it there.


To answer the question implied by the subject, I started on an IBM 650
with 2000 10-digit words of drum, soon augmented with 60 words of
core, a 600,000 word disk drive and two 200 BPI tape drives. It was
too small for the traffic study we were running and we had to scrounge
time on a 704 at GM.

My next machine was an IBM 7070, with 10,000 10-digit words and a 1301
disk drive. I don't recall how many tape drives we had, but it was
enough to run full AUTOCODER, so it must have been at least half a
dozen.

After that I used a variety of machine from different vendors,
including the mandatory 7094 and S/360.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Chris Hoelscher]

Back in high school (circa 1973), I got to play on an 1130 (given to us by a 
local think tank (Battelle Memorial Institute, where Xerography was developed)  
with an 1132 printer - I gotta say, I (like so many others have mentioned) was 
hooked
Was/Is an 1130 considered a mainframe? (or was EVERYTHING back then a 
mainframe?)

Chris Hoelscher
IDMS & DB2 Database Administrator
502-476-2538

You only need to test the programs you don't want to get called on later

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Gerhard Postpischil
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 1:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] My first mainframe experience

On 5/27/2011 11:17 AM, Petersen, Jim wrote:
> How about 2260's was a terminal control unit for terminals which only 
> had 12 lines by 80 Cut my teeth on 360/65 and a
> 360/50 and a 360/40 and they had a 360/20 down at one of our sites for 
> RJE.

The 2260s were attached to a 2848 control unit. I worked at ADR when they were 
announced, and a couple of us used them for playing games (e.g., a battleship 
game by Dave McBride). {partly as a result of our experience, we won a CIA 
contract for interactive text scanning that seems horribly antiquated by 
today's standards.

If you started on a 360, you're a newbie   Some of us on the list worked 
with 70x and 709x "mainframes."

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

gerh...@valley.net (Gerhard Postpischil) writes:
> The 2260s were attached to a 2848 control unit. I worked at ADR when
> they were announced, and a couple of us used them for playing games
> (e.g., a battleship game by Dave McBride). {partly as a result of our
> experience, we won a CIA contract for interactive text scanning that
> seems horribly antiquated by today's standards.
>
> If you started on a 360, you're a newbie   Some of us on the list
> worked with 70x and 709x "mainframes."

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#41 My first mainframe experience
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#43 My first mainframe experience
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#44 My first mainframe experience

the univ. had 2250m1 (direct channel attach) and I hacked the cms editor
to use it (early fullscreen editor, borrowing 2250m1 software library
that lincoln labs had done for cms).

later at the science center, there was a 2250m4 (aka 1130+2250 combo ...
the 2250m4, including 1130 ... was about the same price as the 2250m1).
somebody had ported spacewar to the 2250m4 ... where the keyboard was
split in half ... with keys on two sides of keyboard used for controls
for two-person game. i would bring my kids in on the weekends and they
would play spacewar on the machine.

original on pdp1 (before porting to 1130/2250):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacewar!

misc. past posts mentioning science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

a decade or so later, there was a distributed multiuser cms spacewar
game done by the author of rexx (played on 3270). somebody would have
spacewar controller/server running ... and users could run clients on
their own cms ... it used spm for inter-virtualmachine communication
with the spacewar server (would worked with the server on the same
machine or through the internal network from other machines around the
company).

then some number of people wrote "robot" spacewar clients that would
make moves much faster and beat human players. the spacewar server was
then modified to dramatically increase energy use as the interval
between client operations decreased (attempting to somewhat level the
field between robot and human players).

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Gerhard Postpischil]

On 5/27/2011 11:17 AM, Petersen, Jim wrote:

How about 2260's was a terminal control unit for terminals
which only had 12 lines by 80 Cut my teeth on 360/65 and a
360/50 and a 360/40 and they had a 360/20 down at one of our
sites for RJE.


The 2260s were attached to a 2848 control unit. I worked at ADR 
when they were announced, and a couple of us used them for 
playing games (e.g., a battleship game by Dave McBride). {partly 
as a result of our experience, we won a CIA contract for 
interactive text scanning that seems horribly antiquated by 
today's standards.


If you started on a 360, you're a newbie   Some of us on the 
list worked with 70x and 709x "mainframes."


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Kammer, Charles]

Oh yes... A 256k IBM 360/50 with a 1MB LCS box attached running OS/MFT.  Also 
CRJE on 2740/41's, 2260's came later. Operations greatly improved when we 
installed this type-3 program called "HASP".


Charles S. Kammer
Systems Programming Administrator
Bexar County Information Technology
San Antonio, TX

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Petersen, Jim
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 10:17 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: My first mainframe experience

How about 2260's was a terminal control unit for terminals which only had 12 
lines by 80 Cut my teeth on 360/65 and a 360/50 and a 360/40 and they had a 
360/20 down at one of our sites for RJE.

___
Jim Petersen
MVS - Lead Systems Engineer
Home Depot Technology Center
1300 Park Center Drive, Austin, TX 78753 www.homedepot.com 
email:jim_peter...@homedepot.com
512-977-2615 direct
512-977-2930 fax
210-859-9887 cell phone


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:00 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: My first mainframe experience

chrisma...@belgacom.net (Chris Mason) writes:
> http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/admg1a05/6.
> 3.4
>
> Table 8 has all the numbers.
>
> 3174 was a 3270 control unit.
>
> 4341 was a processor, a "mainframe".

3272 was controller for 3277

3274 was introduced as controller for 3278.

besides other changes from 3272/3277 to 3274/3278, a lot of the electronics 
were moved out of the terminal head and back into the 3274 controller  
reducing manufacturing costs and drastically increasing communication chatter 
over the coax (and reducing response). we complained about the significant 
worse human factors characteristics for
3274 controller. eventually we got a response that 3274/3278 wasn't designed 
for interactive computing ... but for data entry (basically updated keypunch 
technology).

past post with old reference to 3272/3277 & 3274/3278 comparison
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol

3274 was "slow" in other ways ... it had very high "channel busy"
overhead doing command processing. I did a project for STL (now SVL) writting 
support for HYPERChannel channel extender ... allowing local
3274 controlers to moved to offsite building. As a side-effect of moving real 
3274 off the channels ... being replaced with HYPERChannel boxes, significantly 
reducing channel busy for doing the same 3274 operations ... increased overall 
system thruput by 10-15%. ... misc. past posts mentioning various efforts ... 
some involving HYPERChannel http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt

later in terminal emulation in ibm/pc ... a 3277 terminal emulation card had 
much better upload/download thruput compared to 3278 terminal emulation card 
(because of design with the electronics back in the controller ... requiring 
significant increase coax protocol chatter ... cutting effective 
upload/download thruput). some old references about terminal emulation thruput
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005r.html#17 Intel strikes back with a parallel 
x86 design http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007r.html#10 IBM System/3 & 3277-1 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010m.html#80 3270 Emulator Software

other posts with references to terminal emulation 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#terminal

4341 was "mid-range" done by endicott. some number of old emails related to 4341
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#4341

POK was surprised that 4341 was beating 3031. in the wake of failure of FS 
effort, there was mad rush to get products back into 370 product pipeline ... 
some part of that was 303x which was largely warmed over 370; 3031 was warmed 
over 370/158-3. clusters of 4341s had higher thruput, were lower cost and 
required significant reduced physical resources compared to 3033 (there is 
folklore about internal dirty tricks that cut in half the allocation of 
critical 4341 manufacturing
component)

4341 increased performance, reduced costs, reduced physical requirements ...  
and there was big explosion in the numbers sold. Many corporations were facing 
running out of physical space in datacenters ... and it was possible to place 
43xx machines out in dept. supply rooms and conference rooms. Large 
corporations had orders for several hundred at a time that went all around the 
corporation ... the leading edge of the distributed computing wave. internally, 
so many were going into dept. conference rooms, that conference rooms started 
to become scarce corporate resource.  the explosion in number of 43xx machines 
internally helped spike the number of internal network nodes:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

hitting 1000 nodes summer of

Re: My first mainframe experience

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

jim_peter...@homedepot.com (Petersen, Jim) writes:
> How about 2260's was a terminal control unit for terminals which only
> had 12 lines by 80 Cut my teeth on 360/65 and a 360/50 and a 360/40
> and they had a 360/20 down at one of our sites for RJE.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#41
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#42
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#43

not display ... but 2741&TTY terminals.

As undergraduate, I had been doing a whole lot of work with OS/360 &
HASP ... prior to getting involved with (virtual machine) cp67.  I would
tear apart stage2 output from stage1 sysgen and re-organize all the
move/copy steps & statements to careful order files and PDS members. For
typical univ. student jobstream this got nearly three times thruput
(with hasp, each student job as 3step fortran compile, link & go
... before installing watfor for student jobs).

initial cp67 installed at the univ. had support for 2741 & 1050s.  The
univ. had some number of TTY/ascii terminals so I decided to add TTY
support to CP67. CP67 2741&1050 support did automatic terminal
identification ... playing dynamic games with 270x controller SAD
command (would change which line-scanner was associated with which
line/port). I tried to put in TTY support so it would do automatic
terminal identification consistently. It would work for leased lines
... but I wanted to have single dialup number that could be used for all
terminals (common "hunt group" and pool of lines). Turns out it wouldn't
quite work since 2702 took shortcut and hardwired the line speed to each
port.

this was somewhat the justification for the univ. starting clone
controller effort ... reverse engineering the channel interface and
building channel interface board for Interdata/3 (programmed to emulate
270x) ... and being able to do both dynamic line-speed and terminal type
identification. later, four of us got written up being blamed for
some part of clone controller business.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm

later, P/E bought Interdata and the box was sold for many years under
the perkin/elmer logo. In the late 90s, I ran into such a box in large
east coast datacenter handling large percentage of merchant dial-up
payment card swipe cards in the us (ran into former P/E salesman that
said he didn't think they ever changed the channel interface board
design)

in any case, I also decided to hack 2741 & TTY terminal support into
side of HASP (removing 2780 support to cut down real storage footprint).
I re-implemented a conversational editor from scratch ... with CMS
editor syntax ... for a form of CRJE (and I considered much better than
early TSO from the period).

-- 
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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

ps2...@yahoo.com (Ed Gould) writes:
> Back in the 70's & 80's the place I worked had 1500 (or so) local 3270's off 
> of 
> a 168MP.
> We were truly at the UCB # limit for MVS. We were forever having to do 
> sysgens 
> as our VP was a hungry for drives. The conversion to 3350's did save us a bit.
> But what truly helped us was the 3274L's (1 UCB and 32 address's) (SNA local 
> controller).
> Our monitoring of channel's we did not tend to see much busies on the byte 
> channel's even with the 3705 we rarely saw anything that concerned us (say 
> more 
> than 10 percent busy). BTW the online CICS application was a really big 
> fullscreen transfer user. 
> I am not sure where the chatty part you were talking about but we never saw 
> it 
> and the people that were entering the data were no slouches for entering 
> lot's 
> of data.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#41
& unnrelated old CICS reference:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#42

interactive computing tended to have a lot more interactions that pure
data entry. 3270s in general were half-duplex ... so from the time enter
was hit until it was safe to type again ... increased with 3274
... because so much electronics had been moved out of the terminal and
back to the controller. the half-duplex problem also showed up if the
system as doing something asynchronously while typing ... if system went
to write to the screen while key was being hit, the keyboard would lock
and then person would need to stop and hit reset (again horrible human
factors).

the reference 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol

gave comparison timing between 3272/3277 and 3274/3278 for just internal
hardware part of the controller ... base 3272/3277 hardware processing
was .086 seconds ... with 90percentile trivial interactive CMS response
of .11sec ... that gave effective human perceived response of .196
seconds. base 3274/3278 hardware processing was .530 seconds. The
corporation had started doing a lot in the area programmer productivity
and human factors ... establishing quarter second response time as a
goal. The reference numbers were from a internal ibm study that showed
that it was impossible to meet the objectives with direct channel
attached 3274 controllers.

going to SNA made the latencies and delays much worse ... and going to
any kind of remote made human interactive intolerable. That was what
initially prompted the HYPERChannel channel extender for the STL
development lab.  STL was bursting at the seams and 300 people from the
IMS group were being moved to off-site building. They had done some
experiments with remote 3270 and found the human factors totally
unacceptable. The channel extender from the offsite building back to STL
datacenter, allowed the local channel attached 3270 controllers to be
placed at the remote building and human response and interactive
characteristics appeared as if they werer still in the STL bldg. As it
turned out, getting the direct channel 3270 controllers off the real
channels had a side-benefit of increasing overall system throughput by
10-15%

with the electronics in the head of 3277 it was possible to further
improve the human factors ... including eliminating the half-duplex
keyboard locking ... when there is normal interactive operation going on
concurrently between system and user (user potentially constantly typing
while the system might do something that would asynchronously update
part of the screen). Open the 3277 keyboard and little soldering ... and
could adjust the key repeat delay and the key repeat rate ... to a much
more human acceptable rate. Also got a vendor to build a small fifo box
... unplug the keyboard from the 3277 head, plug the box into the 3277
head and plug the 3277 keyboard into the fifo box. This provided a
keystroke buffer to eliminate keyboard getting locked if key was being
pressed same time screen was getting something written.

in the 3274/3278 ... with all the electronics moved back into the
controller, it was no longer possible to perform these human factor
hacks. also with much of the electronics back in the controller
... there was enormous increase in protocol chatter over coax cable
between what was going on in the 3278 terminal head and the electronics
back in the controller.

later with terminal emulation ... is was possible to program the PC for
human factors ... compensating for the 3270 human factor
characteristics. However, the enormous increase in protocal chatter over
coax cable drastically reduced upload/download throughput for 3274/3278
terminal emulation ... compared to what could get from 3272/3277
terminal emulation (since 3274/3278 had both lot more extranous protocol
chatter as well as significantly more handshaking operation latencies
doing any data movement between controller and head).

the terminal emulation paradigm shows up later with the controllers
supporting token-ring and PCs with T/R adapters. The PC/RT workstation
(with AT ISA bus) ha

Re: My first mainframe experience

[Petersen, Jim]

How about 2260's was a terminal control unit for terminals which only had 12 
lines by 80
Cut my teeth on 360/65 and a 360/50 and a 360/40 and they had a 360/20 down at 
one of our sites for RJE.

___
Jim Petersen
MVS - Lead Systems Engineer
Home Depot Technology Center
1300 Park Center Drive, Austin, TX 78753
www.homedepot.com
email:jim_peter...@homedepot.com
512-977-2615 direct
512-977-2930 fax
210-859-9887 cell phone


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:00 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: My first mainframe experience

chrisma...@belgacom.net (Chris Mason) writes:
> http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/admg1a05/6.3.4
>
> Table 8 has all the numbers.
>
> 3174 was a 3270 control unit.
>
> 4341 was a processor, a "mainframe".

3272 was controller for 3277

3274 was introduced as controller for 3278.

besides other changes from 3272/3277 to 3274/3278, a lot of the
electronics were moved out of the terminal head and back into the 3274
controller  reducing manufacturing costs and drastically increasing
communication chatter over the coax (and reducing response). we
complained about the significant worse human factors characteristics for
3274 controller. eventually we got a response that 3274/3278 wasn't
designed for interactive computing ... but for data entry (basically
updated keypunch technology).

past post with old reference to 3272/3277 & 3274/3278 comparison
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol

3274 was "slow" in other ways ... it had very high "channel busy"
overhead doing command processing. I did a project for STL (now SVL)
writting support for HYPERChannel channel extender ... allowing local
3274 controlers to moved to offsite building. As a side-effect of moving
real 3274 off the channels ... being replaced with HYPERChannel boxes,
significantly reducing channel busy for doing the same 3274 operations
... increased overall system thruput by 10-15%. ... misc. past posts
mentioning various efforts ... some involving HYPERChannel
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt

later in terminal emulation in ibm/pc ... a 3277 terminal emulation card
had much better upload/download thruput compared to 3278 terminal
emulation card (because of design with the electronics back in the
controller ... requiring significant increase coax protocol chatter
... cutting effective upload/download thruput). some old references
about terminal emulation thruput
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005r.html#17 Intel strikes back with a parallel 
x86 design
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007r.html#10 IBM System/3 & 3277-1
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010m.html#80 3270 Emulator Software

other posts with references to terminal emulation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#terminal

4341 was "mid-range" done by endicott. some number of old emails related
to 4341
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#4341

POK was surprised that 4341 was beating 3031. in the wake of failure of
FS effort, there was mad rush to get products back into 370 product
pipeline ... some part of that was 303x which was largely warmed over
370; 3031 was warmed over 370/158-3. clusters of 4341s had higher
thruput, were lower cost and required significant reduced physical
resources compared to 3033 (there is folklore about internal dirty
tricks that cut in half the allocation of critical 4341 manufacturing
component)

4341 increased performance, reduced costs, reduced physical requirements
...  and there was big explosion in the numbers sold. Many corporations
were facing running out of physical space in datacenters ... and it was
possible to place 43xx machines out in dept. supply rooms and conference
rooms. Large corporations had orders for several hundred at a time that
went all around the corporation ... the leading edge of the distributed
computing wave. internally, so many were going into dept. conference
rooms, that conference rooms started to become scarce corporate
resource.  the explosion in number of 43xx machines internally helped
spike the number of internal network nodes:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

hitting 1000 nodes summer of 1983 ... old reference:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#112

list of corporate sites with new network nodes added during 1983 (very
large percentage being vm/43xx machines):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#8

old post with picture of 1000th node desk ornament
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#43
above has copy of old email on the subject
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#email830422

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff

Re: My first mainframe experience

[Ed Gould]

From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 10:59:43 PM
Subject: Re: My first mainframe experience
---SNIP
3274 was "slow" in other ways ... it had very high "channel busy"
overhead doing command processing. I did a project for STL (now SVL)
writting support for HYPERChannel channel extender ... allowing local
3274 controlers to moved to offsite building. As a side-effect of moving
real 3274 off the channels ... being replaced with HYPERChannel boxes,
significantly reducing channel busy for doing the same 3274 operations
... increased overall system thruput by 10-15%. ... misc. past posts
mentioning various efforts ... some involving HYPERChannel
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt
---SNIP
Back in the 70's & 80's the place I worked had 1500 (or so) local 3270's off of 
a 168MP.
We were truly at the UCB # limit for MVS. We were forever having to do sysgens 
as our VP was a hungry for drives. The conversion to 3350's did save us a bit.
But what truly helped us was the 3274L's (1 UCB and 32 address's) (SNA local 
controller).
Our monitoring of channel's we did not tend to see much busies on the byte 
channel's even with the 3705 we rarely saw anything that concerned us (say more 
than 10 percent busy). BTW the online CICS application was a really big 
fullscreen transfer user. 
I am not sure where the chatty part you were talking about but we never saw it 
and the people that were entering the data were no slouches for entering lot's 
of data.

Ed

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Re: My first mainframe experience

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

chrisma...@belgacom.net (Chris Mason) writes:
> http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/admg1a05/6.3.4
>
> Table 8 has all the numbers.
>
> 3174 was a 3270 control unit.
>
> 4341 was a processor, a "mainframe".

3272 was controller for 3277

3274 was introduced as controller for 3278.

besides other changes from 3272/3277 to 3274/3278, a lot of the
electronics were moved out of the terminal head and back into the 3274
controller  reducing manufacturing costs and drastically increasing
communication chatter over the coax (and reducing response). we
complained about the significant worse human factors characteristics for
3274 controller. eventually we got a response that 3274/3278 wasn't
designed for interactive computing ... but for data entry (basically
updated keypunch technology).

past post with old reference to 3272/3277 & 3274/3278 comparison
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol

3274 was "slow" in other ways ... it had very high "channel busy"
overhead doing command processing. I did a project for STL (now SVL)
writting support for HYPERChannel channel extender ... allowing local
3274 controlers to moved to offsite building. As a side-effect of moving
real 3274 off the channels ... being replaced with HYPERChannel boxes,
significantly reducing channel busy for doing the same 3274 operations
... increased overall system thruput by 10-15%. ... misc. past posts
mentioning various efforts ... some involving HYPERChannel
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt

later in terminal emulation in ibm/pc ... a 3277 terminal emulation card
had much better upload/download thruput compared to 3278 terminal
emulation card (because of design with the electronics back in the
controller ... requiring significant increase coax protocol chatter
... cutting effective upload/download thruput). some old references
about terminal emulation thruput
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005r.html#17 Intel strikes back with a parallel 
x86 design
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007r.html#10 IBM System/3 & 3277-1
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010m.html#80 3270 Emulator Software

other posts with references to terminal emulation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#terminal

4341 was "mid-range" done by endicott. some number of old emails related
to 4341
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#4341

POK was surprised that 4341 was beating 3031. in the wake of failure of
FS effort, there was mad rush to get products back into 370 product
pipeline ... some part of that was 303x which was largely warmed over
370; 3031 was warmed over 370/158-3. clusters of 4341s had higher
thruput, were lower cost and required significant reduced physical
resources compared to 3033 (there is folklore about internal dirty
tricks that cut in half the allocation of critical 4341 manufacturing
component)

4341 increased performance, reduced costs, reduced physical requirements
...  and there was big explosion in the numbers sold. Many corporations
were facing running out of physical space in datacenters ... and it was
possible to place 43xx machines out in dept. supply rooms and conference
rooms. Large corporations had orders for several hundred at a time that
went all around the corporation ... the leading edge of the distributed
computing wave. internally, so many were going into dept. conference
rooms, that conference rooms started to become scarce corporate
resource.  the explosion in number of 43xx machines internally helped
spike the number of internal network nodes:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

hitting 1000 nodes summer of 1983 ... old reference:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#112

list of corporate sites with new network nodes added during 1983 (very
large percentage being vm/43xx machines):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#8

old post with picture of 1000th node desk ornament 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#43
above has copy of old email on the subject
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#email830422

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--
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send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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Re: My first mainframe experience (was: PF9 Swap question)

[Chris Mason]

Lindy

> i don't remember all the numbers.

http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/admg1a05/6.3.4

Table 8 has all the numbers.

3174 was a 3270 control unit.

4341 was a processor, a "mainframe".

Chris Mason

On Fri, 27 May 2011 00:23:49 +0200, Lindy Mayfield 
 wrote:

>then i got it wrong, 3270.  i don't remember all the numbers.  3174 comes to 
mind.  4341 comes to mind.
> ...

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My first mainframe experience (was: PF9 Swap question)

[Lindy Mayfield]

then i got it wrong, 3270.  i don't remember all the numbers.  3174 comes to 
mind.  4341 comes to mind.

but the first time I ever saw a computer was a VM machine back in 1982 or 1983. 
 I got hooked. I was up all night in the computer lab playing with VM.  I was a 
music major.  I remember still my userid/password.  It was MULINDY and password 
was muruseni.  I knew so much about it (remember I spend whole weekends there 
continuously), that the computer science people where asking me how to do 
things.  I wrote some crap in basic (god i hate that language), and lots of 
EXEC2 stuff.  (Too bad they didn't  have Rexx then.)  At the time, I thought 
that what I knew was worthless.  But now, I know, I could have been a good VM 
sysadmin.

But also I used some "word processing" program to do my university papers.  I 
forget what program that was.

Now that I actually am using z/VM, some almost 30  years later, I cannot 
remember a thing. Nothing.

We had a room full of about 12 or so terminals, some VM and some VAX.  You 
could play adventure on the VAX machines.  

But next to it was a smaller room.  Locked.  Reserved only for very special 
compute science students.  They had micro-computers.  Not sure if they had PC's 
probably, but they had commodor and stuff like that.

I wasn't allowed in that room.   :-)

All funny now when I think about it.



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike 
Schwab [mike.a.sch...@gmail.com]
Sent: 26 May 2011 22:40
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: PF9 Swap question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270
3277 Green on black
3278 8 colors on black.
3290 4 24*80 screens orange on black.

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