Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Steve Samson]

Bruce,

I would regard SP as the "inside" job, designing, writing, testing, and 
integrating code to accomplish some well-defined purpose. An SE would be 
on the interface between "inside" and "outside", meeting with TPTB and 
the end users to arrive at a set of specs that would then be reviewed 
and/or revised with the SP to assess cost and schedule, thus defining 
the purpose of the SP's effort.


In the dawn of history, an SE was the IBM sales team member who would 
provide on-site training and act as the level 1 contact for solving 
problems. By 1965 the SE became not much more than the guy you called to 
order manuals, as all of them with half a brain were pulled into the 
S/360 development effort.


Just my opinion and recollections...

Steve Samson

Bruce McKnight wrote:

Greetings all,

What is the difference between a systems engineer and a systems
programmer? I'm referring to the tradtional tech support staff members
in a regular company using mainframes for business purposes, not ISV
software houses or the like. It seems from the job postings I've seen,
there is no real consensus on the job title for our role.

I've seen a lot of job postings that don't align with what we do as
well. One job posting said "MVS Systems Programmer" but it was clearly
for an applications development role. "MVS Systems Administrator" has
shown up a few times with a role definition that was nearly a 100%
match.

TIA,
Bruce



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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Bob Shannon]

>By 1965 the SE became not much more than the guy you called to order
>manuals, as all of them with half a brain were pulled into the S/360
>development effort.

That's a bit harsh. I has two exceptional SEs, one in the early 1980s
and one in the late 1980s-early 1990s. Of course, I haven't seen an SE
in a long, long time.

Bob Shannon
Rocket Software

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.


Steve Samson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I would regard SP as the "inside" job, designing, writing, testing,
> and integrating code to accomplish some well-defined purpose. An SE
> would be on the interface between "inside" and "outside", meeting with
> TPTB and the end users to arrive at a set of specs that would then be
> reviewed and/or revised with the SP to assess cost and schedule, thus
> defining the purpose of the SP's effort.
>
> In the dawn of history, an SE was the IBM sales team member who would
> provide on-site training and act as the level 1 contact for solving
> problems. By 1965 the SE became not much more than the guy you called
> to order manuals, as all of them with half a brain were pulled into
> the S/360 development effort.
>
> Just my opinion and recollections...

big change was 23jun69 with unbundling announcement and charging for SE
time. prior to that a lot of SEs got "hands-on" training at customer
installations do real-live technical things (sort of on-the-job training
after introductory school). after 23jun69 announcement, customers were
less likely to pay for SE "services" ... especially younger ones getting
their on-the-job training. that sort of created two-class system ...
those that had hands-on experience prior to 23jun69 ... and customers
were more likely to pay for their time ... and those that came after
23jun69.

before 23jun69, for a period as an undergraduate, i had responsibility
for the univ. production os/360 system (and also got to play with cp67).
I had done a lot of stuff to significantly soup up mft (and then mvt)
thruput ... part of of it doing carefully crafted sysgens. There was a
period where I would see brand new SEs in the branch office (fresh out
of corporate schools) for 3-4 month period and then be replaced by new
batch (getting their "hands-on" by "helping" me).

the early "HONE" system 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone

was largely instituted as countermeasure to training issues introduced
with 23jun69 announcement ... started out as clone of science center's
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

cp67 (virtual machine) system on a few 360/67s at locations around the
states and remote login access from branch offices ... being able to use
dos/360, os/360, etc (i.e. behind the original "hands-on" in the HONE
acronym).

the focus somewhat changed after science center did the port of apl\360
to cms for cms\apl and the explosion in the number apl applications
supporting sales & marketing appeared ... like the "configurators".
Early in 370 product time-frame ... there was transition where sales
couldn't even submit orders until after they had been processed by HONE
configurator. The explosion in the use by direct sales & marketing sort
of swamped the processors and there was then transition away from its
original purpose of allowing SEs to get hands-on system expierence.

HONE would migrate (from cp67) to vm370 and eventually had HONE systems
sprouting up all around the world ... some of the early ones, i even got
to do the installation. Many of the HONE APL modeling applications would
also permeate hdqtrs locations, in addition to direct branch office
sales & marketing support. One of my first HONE installs outside the US
was when EMEA hdqtrs moved from NY to La Defense (outside paris) in the
early 70s.

for other drift ... misc. posts mentioning 23jun69 unbundling
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#unbundle

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 5/9/2007 10:10:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

That's a  bit harsh. I has two exceptional SEs, one in the early 1980s
and one in the  late 1980s-early 1990s. Of course, I haven't seen an  SE



>>
Yeah we had a couple that were top-notch thru the mid seventies.  Dumps,
debugging, coding, sysgens, tuning, early support...whatever it took.
 
Occasionally PSR would get dispatched for weird stuff. When I moved West in  
early 80's had two of best PSR's ever saw. Trained, educated,  
dedicated...learned many IPCS tricks by watching them dissect dumps.
 
Last crop SE's were trained CE's that wanted to get off the 24/7 on call  
lists and were tired of getting 150psi fuser oil from the check sorters. Still  
good folks just not the level of the earlier  crowd 



** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Mark Zelden]

Today, I see these two used interchangeably.  I've even seen title changes
from one to the other in the same shop when HR decided to review 
everyone's job titles and such.

I still prefer plain ol' Systems Programmer over all the titles I've had. 

Mark
--
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Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group:  G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS and OS390 expert at http://searchDataCenter.com/ateExperts/
Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html


On Wed, 9 May 2007 08:04:08 -0700, Steve Samson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Bruce,
>
>I would regard SP as the "inside" job, designing, writing, testing, and
>integrating code to accomplish some well-defined purpose. An SE would be
>on the interface between "inside" and "outside", meeting with TPTB and
>the end users to arrive at a set of specs that would then be reviewed
>and/or revised with the SP to assess cost and schedule, thus defining
>the purpose of the SP's effort.
>
>In the dawn of history, an SE was the IBM sales team member who would
>provide on-site training and act as the level 1 contact for solving
>problems. By 1965 the SE became not much more than the guy you called to
>order manuals, as all of them with half a brain were pulled into the
>S/360 development effort.
>
>Just my opinion and recollections...
>
>Steve Samson
>
>Bruce McKnight wrote:
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> What is the difference between a systems engineer and a systems
>> programmer? I'm referring to the tradtional tech support staff members
>> in a regular company using mainframes for business purposes, not ISV
>> software houses or the like. It seems from the job postings I've seen,
>> there is no real consensus on the job title for our role.
>>
>> I've seen a lot of job postings that don't align with what we do as
>> well. One job posting said "MVS Systems Programmer" but it was clearly
>> for an applications development role. "MVS Systems Administrator" has
>> shown up a few times with a role definition that was nearly a 100%
>> match.
>>

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark Zelden) writes:
> Today, I see these two used interchangeably.  I've even seen title changes
> from one to the other in the same shop when HR decided to review 
> everyone's job titles and such.
>
> I still prefer plain ol' Systems Programmer over all the titles I've had. 

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007j.html#65 Help settle a job title/role debate

later, i would have battles to have no title at all ... and have my
business cards w/o any title (I would sometimes joke that if it was
necessary to get things done based on a title ... then it was time to
retire ... i should be able to convince people to do something based on
it was the right thing to do).

the other battle was being one of the first to have email address on
business card.

... there is old joke about person that use to fly a kite from the roof
of 705 bldg. in pok on april 1st ... who had pencils made up with his
name ...  "Elect  lab director, raises or promotions, but not both".
old references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#60 South San Jose (was Tysons Corner, 
Virginia)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#38 S/360 development burnout?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006m.html#22 Patent #6886160

this is slightly different than the Boyd line effectively about neither
raises nor promotions ... recent ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007j.html#61 Lean and Mean: 150,000 U.S. layoffs 
for IBM?

which is more along the lines of references at some number of locations
(across a variety of large bureaucratic organizations) being primarily
mushroom factories (i.e. most of the people are kept in the dark
and feed  )

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Bill Johnson]

Back when I worked at EDS in the mid 80's, they called programmers Systems 
Engineers. (SE's) They even had a program to develop programmers called the SED 
program. (also had a OPD program - Operations Personnel Development) Needless 
to say, when I hear the term Systems Engineers I think of programmers not 
Systems Programmers.
   
  Bill Johnson
  Systems Programmer and former Systems Engineer

 
-
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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Tom Schmidt]

>Bruce McKnight wrote:
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> What is the difference between a systems engineer and a systems
>> programmer? I'm referring to the tradtional tech support staff members
>> in a regular company using mainframes for business purposes, not ISV
>> software houses or the like. It seems from the job postings I've seen,
>> there is no real consensus on the job title for our role.
>>
>> I've seen a lot of job postings that don't align with what we do as
>> well. One job posting said "MVS Systems Programmer" but it was clearly
>> for an applications development role. "MVS Systems Administrator" has
>> shown up a few times with a role definition that was nearly a 100%
>> match.
 
 
In some states the abuse of the term 'engineer' in a job title was met with the 
legislated requirement that said person indeed be a licensed engineer.  Either 
you had demonstrated engineering training & skills or you knew how to drive 
the trains.  Nothing else was tolerated.  
 
For the past 15 years or so, some HR/ER agencies like to create positions 
with 'Administrator' in the title, being the trendy folks that HR/ER groups 
like to 
think they are.  
 
The best title I have held to date (besides 'Co-Owner') was 'IBM Technical 
Expert'.  (Well, I'm kind of fond of the title 'Dad', too.)  
 
-- 
Tom Schmidt 
Madison, WI 
 
 

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Ted MacNEIL]

>they called programmers Systems Engineers

In Canada, the "Society of Professional Engineers" got together and 'forced' 
all companies to drop the title 'Engineer' from all job descriptions, unless 
the worker was a professional engineer.

So, the IBM'rs became Customer Engineering Representatives.
With more prodding from the Society, they became Customer Service 
Representatives.

I had thought this happened in the US, as well.

The title springs from when most of them were engineers.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!  

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Howard Brazee]

On 9 May 2007 10:44:09 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Johnson)
wrote:

>Back when I worked at EDS in the mid 80's, they called programmers Systems 
>Engineers. (SE's) 
>They even had a program to develop programmers called the SED program. (also 
>had a OPD 
>program - Operations Personnel Development) Needless to say, when I hear the 
>term Systems 
>Engineers I think of programmers not Systems Programmers.


Me too.   It was nice having a title that our customers didn't have.
Nobody could pigeon-hole us into a category that didn't exist in their
minds.

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Wed, 9 May 2007 08:04:08 -0700, Steve Samson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>...By 1965 the SE became not much more than the guy you called to
>order manuals, as all of them with half a brain were pulled into the
>S/360 development effort.
>...

That must have varied by location or at least shop-to-shop.  In the shop
I was in from 1973-1986 we a series of very good on-site SEs.  After that,
the quality and/or availability went down hill.  I don't think I saw on-site
SEs (of any quality) after about 1990.

Pat O'Keefe

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Ed Gould]

On May 9, 2007, at 10:04 AM, Steve Samson wrote:


Bruce,

I would regard SP as the "inside" job, designing, writing, testing,  
and integrating code to accomplish some well-defined purpose. An SE  
would be on the interface between "inside" and "outside", meeting  
with TPTB and the end users to arrive at a set of specs that would  
then be reviewed and/or revised with the SP to assess cost and  
schedule, thus defining the purpose of the SP's effort.


In the dawn of history, an SE was the IBM sales team member who  
would provide on-site training and act as the level 1 contact for  
solving problems. By 1965 the SE became not much more than the guy  
you called to order manuals, as all of them with half a brain were  
pulled into the S/360 development effort.


Just my opinion and recollections...

Steve Samson


Steve,

I guess my recollections are different. Our SE actually wrote code  
and even looked at dumps occasionally (the PSR  did 99 percent of  
that) I can't remember of any SE in that time frame doing anything  
else but helping the customer install MVS and testing of it. My  
memory is rather vague when we ran MVT but IIRC it was essentially  
the same thing. I vaguely remember a story about we needed to  
reproduce 200 cobol manuals and the person that followed through on  
that was the sales rep. Our SE (s) attended staff meetings and also  
attended (some) management meetings when new computers were talked  
about or coming installations of new computers.


They also occasionally interfaced with other IBM types when it came  
to type 3 products and or FDP's. We had good and poor SE's. I am  
still friends with one of them after 30+ years. We had one that used  
his knowledge of the 3850 (I think I knew more than he did and I was  
not even close to being considered an expert on the thing) to get  
promoted to someplace out in AZ.


Ed

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 05/09/2007
   at 11:09 AM, Bob Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>That's a bit harsh. I has two exceptional SEs, one in the early 1980s
>and one in the late 1980s-early 1990s.

It may depend on the size of the shop. My experience at a small shop
was that they came untrained and IBM transferred them to a more
important account once we had taught them enough to be useful.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Gregory, Gary G]

TRIVIA: back in the 70's and 80's Texas state law prevented someone
using the title of "Engineer" unless they were licensed by the state.
So, our IBM SE's had the title of "Systems Representative" on their
business cards. 

Gary Garland Gregory, MS
CA 
Senior Software Engineer
Tel: +1-214-473-1863
Fax: +1-214-473-1050
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

Back when I worked at EDS in the mid 80's, they called programmers
Systems Engineers. (SE's) They even had a program to develop programmers
called the SED program. (also had a OPD program - Operations Personnel
Development) Needless to say, when I hear the term Systems Engineers I
think of programmers not Systems Programmers.
   
  Bill Johnson
  Systems Programmer and former Systems Engineer

 
-
Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peak at the forecast 
 with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Bruce Black]

In some states the abuse of the term 'engineer' in a job title was met with the 
legislated requirement that said person indeed be a licensed engineer.  Either 
you had demonstrated engineering training & skills or you knew how to drive 
the trains.  Nothing else was tolerated.  
Here in NJ, a few years ago, some mush-headed legislator submitted a 
bill to require licensing and certification for the use of "Software 
Engineer".  Curiously, the same law that requires licensing of 
professional Engineers also covered licensing of barbers and 
beauticians.  Must have made the engineers feel special.


She proposed a certification exam, but she obviously had no concept of 
the breadth of specialties among programmers.\


Luckily, cooler heads prevailed and the bill was trashed.

--
Bruce A. Black
Senior Software Developer for FDR
Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sales info: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tech support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.innovationdp.fdr.com

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Howard Brazee]

On 10 May 2007 09:19:05 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Black)
wrote:

>She proposed a certification exam, but she obviously had no concept of 
>the breadth of specialties among programmers.\
>
>Luckily, cooler heads prevailed and the bill was trashed.

I wonder if anybody in Personnel knows what the CDP that I include on
my resume means.I also paid an extra bit when I got my Masters for
some certification with some more letters to add.

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Wayne Driscoll]

Makes me wish there was a certification test required to run for public
office!
Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.
  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Black
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

>
> In some states the abuse of the term 'engineer' in a job title was met

> with the legislated requirement that said person indeed be a licensed 
> engineer.  Either you had demonstrated engineering training & skills 
> or you knew how to drive the trains.  Nothing else was tolerated.
Here in NJ, a few years ago, some mush-headed legislator submitted a
bill to require licensing and certification for the use of "Software
Engineer".  Curiously, the same law that requires licensing of
professional Engineers also covered licensing of barbers and
beauticians.  Must have made the engineers feel special.

She proposed a certification exam, but she obviously had no concept of
the breadth of specialties among programmers.\

Luckily, cooler heads prevailed and the bill was trashed.

--
Bruce A. Black
Senior Software Developer for FDR
Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sales info: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tech support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.innovationdp.fdr.com

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[R.S.]

Gregory, Gary G wrote:

TRIVIA: back in the 70's and 80's Texas state law prevented someone
using the title of "Engineer" unless they were licensed by the state.
So, our IBM SE's had the title of "Systems Representative" on their
business cards. 


It still takes a place in Europe. Engineer is a title assigned by technical 
univeristy to a graduate.
In Poland (and not only) only government-approved organizations can be named university (or 
polytechnic) and only those schools can  assigne title of engineer. The same apply to medical 
doctor - only medical university can assign the title, only government-approved school can be 
medical univeristy. Any university (technical, medical, others) graduate is assigned with 
"magister" title. My dictionary says Master of Science, but I believe it's called 
"masters degree".


--
Radoslaw Skorupka (magister engineer)
Lodz, Poland


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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Tim Hare]

Wayne Driscoll wrote: "Makes me wish there was a certification test 
required to run for public office!"


Why? We all know that those guys are "certifiable"!

Tim Hare
Senior Systems Programmer
Florida Department of Transportation
(850) 414-4209

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Howard Brazee]

On 10 May 2007 10:52:02 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.S.) wrote:

>It still takes a place in Europe. Engineer is a title assigned by technical 
>univeristy to a graduate.
>In Poland (and not only) only government-approved organizations can be named 
>university 
>(or polytechnic) and only those schools can  assigne title of engineer. The 
>same apply to 
>medical doctor - only medical university can assign the title, only 
>government-approved 
>school can be medical univeristy. Any university (technical, medical, others) 
>graduate is 
>assigned with "magister" title. My dictionary says Master of Science, but I 
>believe it's called 
>"masters degree".

http://www.onelook.com/?loc=pub&w=masters%20degree implies that
"master's degree" is a more common spelling.

Do they have any grand fathered "engineer" titles, such as used in the
U.S. for the person who drives a train locomotive?

My wife told me that getting my master's did not qualify me for a
mistress.   Waste of lots of money, time and work.

I wonder if some tech could put out a shingle that calls him a
"computer doctor", without such a degree.

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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Rick Fochtman]

---
It may depend on the size of the shop. My experience at a small shop was 
that they came untrained and IBM transferred them to a more important 
account once we had taught them enough to be useful.


That was my experience with PSR-types. The SE's assigned to our account 
were quite good, one or two were absolutely STELLAR! How many SE's in 
general can code ZAP patches to the nucleus from a stand-alone dump and 
have them work the first time!


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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[Rick Fochtman]

---


Makes me wish there was a certification test required to run for public
office!
 


--
If there was, I suspect many of the current crop would be easily 
certified: either for the loony bin or a penitentiary!


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Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

[James Smith]

Bob

Like you I encountered a couple of exceptionally talented and helpful SE's
in the 80's - perhaps it was location dependent. Later, arriving in the
Great White North I was saddened to find the position had been reduced to
that of a 'Sales Expediter'. 

James F. Smith
 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Bob Shannon
Sent: 09 May 2007 23:10
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Help settle a job title/role debate

>By 1965 the SE became not much more than the guy you called to order
>manuals, as all of them with half a brain were pulled into the S/360
>development effort.

That's a bit harsh. I has two exceptional SEs, one in the early 1980s
and one in the late 1980s-early 1990s. Of course, I haven't seen an SE
in a long, long time.

Bob Shannon
Rocket Software

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