Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:45:46 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
>...
>I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague understanding
>of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.
>
OS/360 and its progeny have only a vague understanding of record oriented
I/O.  Consider that QSAM is the record oriented access method, yet it
won't let you NOTE the position of a record nor POINT to it.  BSAM has
NOTE and POINT, but those are in terms of blocks, not records.  And PDSes
are biased toward BPAM which, again, is block oriented, not record
oriented.  And many programming languages (Rexx, I know; C, AFAIK)
support PDS processing only if the programmer allocates to the individual
member; quite a vague understanding of PDS processing.

VSAM ESDS?  How well has it penetrated?  What utilities will let me use
ESDS as SYSIN?

VM/CMS does far better.  It uses an Item Number which is a logical
record.  It even allows creating sparse files (at least for RECFM=F).

-- gil

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
,
on 07/19/2011
   at 07:39 PM, "Schumacher, Otto"  said:

>Easier for whom?  I have not seen anything developed in Unix that
>communicates with z/OS made easier by the implementation of Unix

Well, pipes are sometimes useful.

>I can not speak about Perl and REXX because I do not know PERL. 

Perl is better than Rexx for parsing. Unfortunately, no current Perl
is available for MVS due to EBCDIC-Unicode conflicts.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <1311041136.15160.0.ca...@mckown5.johnmckown.net>, on 07/18/2011
   at 09:05 PM, John McKown  said:

>I don't, in general. It is more just a step above assembler. 

Even that I'd challenge. It *might* be a step above BAL, but not above
any of the macro-assemblers from OS/360 Assembler (E) on.

>Now, if you want a true HLL, use APL2!

I have mixed feelings. I'd prefer an APL spinoff with decent control
structures.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <1311041408.15160.3.ca...@mckown5.johnmckown.net>, on 07/18/2011
   at 09:10 PM, John McKown  said:

>PDS is a weird beastie. IMO, the closest analogy would be a directory
>with very restricted file names.

Various other operating systems, e.g., EXEC 8, have equivalents. What
distinguishes a PDS is that it is directly supported by an access
method.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman
> 
>
--

> In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
> backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
> non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an
"open-systems"
> background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.
>

---
> I suspect that the vast majority are being told that "The Mainframe is
> DEAD" and they're velieving it. Hence, closed minds. The so-callerd
> EDUCATORS are major contributors to this obvious fallacy because of
> their own ignorance and/or biases.

Yet another reason why I frequently refer to it as the "publick
edjamacation racket".

"None are so blind as those who WILL NOT see."

-jc-

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Hale, Bob]

I agree with Otto. What is so tough about creating JCL?

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Schumacher, Otto
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 1:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like 
commands

Easier for whom?  I have not seen anything developed in Unix that communicates 
with z/OS made easier by the implementation of Unix - more complex yes, less 
visable yes, error messages none available, platform portable yes, but not 
easier. 
I do not find Unix commands easier than JES2 commands
I do not feel that C++ is easier than COBOL
I do not feel that the script provided in a previous memo on this subject 
easier than JCL
I do not find HTML easier than BMS. 
I do not find JAVA easy to follow.
I do not find XML easy.
These new developments in Open system provide real benefits that I am open to 
but do not sell these changes a easier. 
I can not speak about Perl and REXX because I do not know PERL. 
I do find that there are real benefits provided in ASCII to EPICDIC conversion, 
portability, and advanced GUI displays. 
  
Regards
Otto Schumacher
 
HP Enterprise Services
Infrastructure Specialist
Ahold Account
CICS & Capacity Technical Support
P.O. Box 6462
2000 Wade Hampton Blvd.
LC1-302
Greenville,  South Carolina, 29606
Cell: 864 569--5338
Tel: 864 987-1417
Fax: 864 987-4500
E-mail: otto.schumac...@hp.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Jim Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 12:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like 
commands

Sir,

ROFL !! ... oh good ... it's just your big toes ... I'm going to 
patent all my toes and even my fingers (in case I get slapped on
the wrist)  

:-) 
 

Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130 (mobile)
636-294-1014(res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

I'm going to patent the big toe. Everybody who walks must pay me a royality.
UPTSO is full of fools and failed engineers.

John McKown 

Systems Engineer IV

IT

 

Administrative Services Group

 

HealthMarkets(r)

 

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010

(817) 255-3225 phone * 

john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

 

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and
issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake
Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of
TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:12 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like commands
> 
> Ummm say doc (switching to Bugs Bunny accent) ... would that be 
> why Microsoft got a patent for PDSs ?? .. a concept that's been
> around even before Microsoft.
> 
> From the 'Summary Of The Invention' for U.S. patent no. 
> 6,594,674, 'System
> and
> method for creating multiple files from a single source 
> file', which was
> issued
> today to Microsoft: 
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> Jim Thomas
> 617-233-4130 (mobile)
> 636-294-1014(res)
> j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
> Of John McKown
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:10 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like
> commands
> 
> On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:45 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll 
> wrote:
> > > In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people 
> with mainframe
> > > backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and 
> integrate usage of
> > > non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an 
> "open-systems"
> > > background show a willingness to learn anything about the 
> mainframe.
> > 
> > I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a 
> requirement
> &

Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Rick Fochtman]

--
In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe 
backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of 
non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems" 
background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.

---
I suspect that the vast majority are being told that "The Mainframe is 
DEAD" and they're velieving it. Hence, closed minds. The so-callerd 
EDUCATORS are major contributors to this obvious fallacy because of 
their own ignorance and/or biases.


Rick

--
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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Schumacher, Otto]

Easier for whom?  I have not seen anything developed in Unix that communicates 
with z/OS made easier by the implementation of Unix - more complex yes, less 
visable yes, error messages none available, platform portable yes, but not 
easier. 
I do not find Unix commands easier than JES2 commands
I do not feel that C++ is easier than COBOL
I do not feel that the script provided in a previous memo on this subject 
easier than JCL
I do not find HTML easier than BMS. 
I do not find JAVA easy to follow.
I do not find XML easy.
These new developments in Open system provide real benefits that I am open to 
but do not sell these changes a easier. 
I can not speak about Perl and REXX because I do not know PERL. 
I do find that there are real benefits provided in ASCII to EPICDIC conversion, 
portability, and advanced GUI displays. 
  
Regards
Otto Schumacher
 
HP Enterprise Services
Infrastructure Specialist
Ahold Account
CICS & Capacity Technical Support
P.O. Box 6462
2000 Wade Hampton Blvd.
LC1-302
Greenville,  South Carolina, 29606
Cell: 864 569--5338
Tel: 864 987-1417
Fax: 864 987-4500
E-mail: otto.schumac...@hp.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Jim Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 12:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like 
commands

Sir,

ROFL !! ... oh good ... it's just your big toes ... I'm going to 
patent all my toes and even my fingers (in case I get slapped on
the wrist)  

:-) 
 

Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130 (mobile)
636-294-1014(res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

I'm going to patent the big toe. Everybody who walks must pay me a royality.
UPTSO is full of fools and failed engineers.

John McKown 

Systems Engineer IV

IT

 

Administrative Services Group

 

HealthMarkets(r)

 

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010

(817) 255-3225 phone * 

john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

 

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and
issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake
Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of
TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:12 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like commands
> 
> Ummm say doc (switching to Bugs Bunny accent) ... would that be 
> why Microsoft got a patent for PDSs ?? .. a concept that's been
> around even before Microsoft.
> 
> From the 'Summary Of The Invention' for U.S. patent no. 
> 6,594,674, 'System
> and
> method for creating multiple files from a single source 
> file', which was
> issued
> today to Microsoft: 
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> Jim Thomas
> 617-233-4130 (mobile)
> 636-294-1014(res)
> j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
> Of John McKown
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:10 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like
> commands
> 
> On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:45 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll 
> wrote:
> > > In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people 
> with mainframe
> > > backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and 
> integrate usage of
> > > non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an 
> "open-systems"
> > > background show a willingness to learn anything about the 
> mainframe.
> > 
> > I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a 
> requirement
> > of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
> > speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
> > is a typical rough and ready analogy.
> > 
> > I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague 
> understanding
> > of record oriented I

Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Jim Thomas]

Sir,

ROFL !! ... oh good ... it's just your big toes ... I'm going to 
patent all my toes and even my fingers (in case I get slapped on
the wrist)  

:-) 
 

Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130 (mobile)
636-294-1014(res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

I'm going to patent the big toe. Everybody who walks must pay me a royality.
UPTSO is full of fools and failed engineers.

John McKown 

Systems Engineer IV

IT

 

Administrative Services Group

 

HealthMarkets(r)

 

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010

(817) 255-3225 phone * 

john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

 

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and
issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake
Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of
TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:12 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like commands
> 
> Ummm say doc (switching to Bugs Bunny accent) ... would that be 
> why Microsoft got a patent for PDSs ?? .. a concept that's been
> around even before Microsoft.
> 
> From the 'Summary Of The Invention' for U.S. patent no. 
> 6,594,674, 'System
> and
> method for creating multiple files from a single source 
> file', which was
> issued
> today to Microsoft: 
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> Jim Thomas
> 617-233-4130 (mobile)
> 636-294-1014(res)
> j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
> Of John McKown
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:10 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like
> commands
> 
> On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:45 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll 
> wrote:
> > > In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people 
> with mainframe
> > > backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and 
> integrate usage of
> > > non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an 
> "open-systems"
> > > background show a willingness to learn anything about the 
> mainframe.
> > 
> > I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a 
> requirement
> > of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
> > speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
> > is a typical rough and ready analogy.
> > 
> > I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague 
> understanding
> > of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.
> > 
> > The list goes on and on.
> 
> PDS is a weird beastie. IMO, the closest analogy would be a directory
> with very restricted file names. Record I/O might be possible if they
> use a "looping" language like C or Perl to process each row in an SQL
> result set.
> 
> -- 
> John McKown
> Maranatha! <><
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
> 
> 
> 
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3772 - Release 
> Date: 07/18/11
> 
> --
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> 
> 

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[McKown, John]

I'm going to patent the big toe. Everybody who walks must pay me a royality. 
UPTSO is full of fools and failed engineers.

John McKown 

Systems Engineer IV

IT

 

Administrative Services Group

 

HealthMarkets(r)

 

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010

(817) 255-3225 phone * 

john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

 

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 11:12 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like commands
> 
> Ummm say doc (switching to Bugs Bunny accent) ... would that be 
> why Microsoft got a patent for PDSs ?? .. a concept that's been
> around even before Microsoft.
> 
> From the 'Summary Of The Invention' for U.S. patent no. 
> 6,594,674, 'System
> and
> method for creating multiple files from a single source 
> file', which was
> issued
> today to Microsoft: 
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> Jim Thomas
> 617-233-4130 (mobile)
> 636-294-1014(res)
> j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
> Of John McKown
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:10 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL 
> with Unix like
> commands
> 
> On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:45 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll 
> wrote:
> > > In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people 
> with mainframe
> > > backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and 
> integrate usage of
> > > non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an 
> "open-systems"
> > > background show a willingness to learn anything about the 
> mainframe.
> > 
> > I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a 
> requirement
> > of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
> > speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
> > is a typical rough and ready analogy.
> > 
> > I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague 
> understanding
> > of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.
> > 
> > The list goes on and on.
> 
> PDS is a weird beastie. IMO, the closest analogy would be a directory
> with very restricted file names. Record I/O might be possible if they
> use a "looping" language like C or Perl to process each row in an SQL
> result set.
> 
> -- 
> John McKown
> Maranatha! <><
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
> 
> 
> 
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3772 - Release 
> Date: 07/18/11
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
> 
> 

--
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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Jim Thomas]

Ummm say doc (switching to Bugs Bunny accent) ... would that be 
why Microsoft got a patent for PDSs ?? .. a concept that's been
around even before Microsoft.

>From the 'Summary Of The Invention' for U.S. patent no. 6,594,674, 'System
and
method for creating multiple files from a single source file', which was
issued
today to Microsoft: 

Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130 (mobile)
636-294-1014(res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of John McKown
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 9:10 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:45 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll 
wrote:
> > In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
> > backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
> > non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems"
> > background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.
> 
> I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a requirement
> of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
> speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
> is a typical rough and ready analogy.
> 
> I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague understanding
> of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.
> 
> The list goes on and on.

PDS is a weird beastie. IMO, the closest analogy would be a directory
with very restricted file names. Record I/O might be possible if they
use a "looping" language like C or Perl to process each row in an SQL
result set.

-- 
John McKown
Maranatha! <><

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Sam Siegel]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 7:10 PM, John McKown  wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:45 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll  wrote:
>> > In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
>> > backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
>> > non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems"
>> > background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.
>>
>> I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a requirement
>> of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
>> speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
>> is a typical rough and ready analogy.
>>
>> I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague understanding
>> of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.
>>
>> The list goes on and on.
>
> PDS is a weird beastie. IMO, the closest analogy would be a directory
> with very restricted file names. Record I/O might be possible if they
> use a "looping" language like C or Perl to process each row in an SQL
> result set.

All - Please don't misinterpret my prior post.  It was strictly a
comment about the non mainframe community's lack of knowledge about
mainframe systems.  I have seen many large scale (5,000+ TPS full
financial transaction) systems on Unix using Java.  These are 7/24
systems processing Credit Card transactions.  The application
developers, operating systems programming languages are all working
just fine.  These are 'raised floor' environments just like a typical
z system would have.

The other way to look at it is my lack of knowledge about Robotic and
Device control operating system and software.  Those programmers are
in the same boat as us.  "No one understand what we have and how good
it is."

Unless and until people have worked in both (or more) sides of a field
it is tough to understand the related nuances.  When working with
colleagues from a different branch of the field it will always take
longer to get an idea across.  It is just not possible to communicate
decades of experience in a few short meetings or during the length of
a single project.  It takes years.

Sam



>
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> John McKown
> Maranatha! <><
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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[John McKown]

On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 14:45 -0700, Sam Siegel wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll  wrote:
> > In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
> > backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
> > non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems"
> > background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.
> 
> I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a requirement
> of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
> speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
> is a typical rough and ready analogy.
> 
> I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague understanding
> of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.
> 
> The list goes on and on.

PDS is a weird beastie. IMO, the closest analogy would be a directory
with very restricted file names. Record I/O might be possible if they
use a "looping" language like C or Perl to process each row in an SQL
result set.

-- 
John McKown
Maranatha! <><

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[John McKown]

I don't, in general. It is more just a step above assembler. Now, if you
want a true HLL, use APL2!

On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 15:21 -0400, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
> In <4e243efe.2010...@valley.net>, on 07/18/2011
>at 10:11 AM, Gerhard Postpischil  said:
> 
> >Good for you, but some of us have built extensive macro and 
> >subroutine libraries to use with assembler, and find it as fast  and
> >easy to use those than to live with (the confining  limitations of)
> >higher level languages.
> 
> And some of us don't regard C as a higher level language.
>  
-- 
John McKown
Maranatha! <><

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Mark Zelden]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:10:06 -0500, Wayne Driscoll  wrote:

>In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe 
>backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of 
>non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems" 
>background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.
>

I agree 100%, but that may only be because many of the people I've worked 
with over the years have either thought their mainframe jobs might go away 
or actually were going away.  If all the airline magazines pronounced wintel or
*nix was dead or would be dead by the year 2020, I think you  might find the
same thing.

Mark
--
Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS   
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html 
Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[John Mattson]

EXCELLENT rant, Jim.  Got fired up just reading it. 
I occasionally annoy our local unix and web programmers by reminding them 
that their pay is NOT related to the number of directories they create... 
and reminding them that each level in a path slows down their system.  And 
to even SUGGEST that you put ALL of the executables for an application in 
the SAME directory BLASPHEMY !!!   Each programmer has their various 
types of files squirrled away in various places, and none of them can find 
the other's stuff without a major search.  Amazing to behold.  Oh well, 
all of our problems will be solved when we complete our SAP conversion, so 
I need not worry. 




From:   Jim Thomas 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Date:   07/18/2011 03:10 PM
Subject:        Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with 
Unix like commands
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List 



I have nothing against anything 'new' and highly doubt that 
other mainframer's do either. Come from the world of Windows 
or Apple ??.. I am not even going to comment on that.

That said, what are we trying to achieve ?? .. the blue screen
of death on the mainframes ?? (be it z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE or even
z/Linux).IMHO, everybody and their mother, to include IBM has
been bent over trying to do the same for at least a decade that 
I can now state. I don't think I need to point out or bring up 
too much evidence on how spectacularly specialized and efficient
the PC world was in populating and letting the world know, how
efficient they were with the 'blue screen of death' and I know that
none of you know what I speak of right ??. 

The 'mainframe' environment has been robust for MANY decades. Is there
anybody that can state the same of the PC environment that everybody
just insists on incorporating into the mainframe world ??. As both,
a former developer and a systems programmer, I can very honestly 
say that we'd (one way or the other) get out of an unwarranted or
unwanted IPL most always (especially with z/OS). 

Can anybody in the server world say that ??. Seems to me that the 
defacto action is always CTRL-ALT-DEL .. be it the 'server' or 
'router' or whatever else. 

By the by ... before Winblows 3.1 came out ... I did a lot of work 
on Novell too ... so I do have some experience, knowledge and 
exposure to what I speak of. 

'old' mainframer's, IMHO, do not have any problems or hesitation
with adapting and or using 'new' technology 'when and if it works'.

Why is CTRL-ALT-DEL a viable option for replacing mainframe for PC
servers when the said company just ends up paying more than they
really did with 'an old mainframe'. On the same token, why is an
IPL of my MVS image (or PLEX) not acceptable ??... it's the same
as CTRL-ALT-DEL is it not ??. 

AFAIK, us old mainframer's ... want to do our jobs, which is to
say, do what we enjoy the most but not want to have to do it repeatedly
or redundantly, over and over and over again. I have spoken (rather
vehemently unfortunately) to many PC developers and WEB developers
that simply could not understand why a given product, system or 
sub-system that I was owned at that point it time, had not been 
completely re-written and 're-complied' ... More often than not,
after a couple of hours, I gave up and said ... 'because I do not 
have to re-write and re-compile the world just to feel important or
justify my job'. 

There is also another thread about wanting 'script's instead of 
JCL... have any of these folks looked into REXX ?? or even CLIST ??.

There was some negativity about DCB's ... oh .. okay .. we don't need
DCB's but .. lets just have a two and a half mile long PATH that each
applications programmer has to maintain and or keep track of. Sure .. 
yep .. it's very simple and applications programmers will keep a track
of them all  my foot !!. 

Were the non mainframe environment at the very least, a little more 
stable, I'd venture to say that most all, if not all, 'old' systems
programmers (or even us 'old' developers) would gladly welcome and 
incorporate required changes. 

Lastly and fully knowing that I'm 'rocking the boat' .. what the heck,
manager's ?? .. management ??. The only comment I'll make (for the 
moment) is that a few years ago, I actually had a ... umm .. manager
call me and get pissed off in about five minutes into the conversation
because he was adamant that 'MVS' meant 'Microsoft Virtual Studio' which
was around a lot longer than MVS on the mainframe ... I asked for his 
academic qualifications and was told that he had an undergrad degree in
Journalism. Of course, I blew it because I asked him if he knew how big
an idiot he was and if he'd be willing to write about his own stupidity in 

the local papers

Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Scott Ford]

There are a few of us not sure how many, that are on both sides of the aisle. I 
work in z/OS, Windows and Unix, including Linux and enjoy
and embrace new ideas

Scott J Ford
Software Engineer
http://www.identityforge.com
 

From: Jim Thomas 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like 
commands

Hear Hear ... I guess I'm not the only one that feels 
this way ...

I will have a 'nasty-gram' later ... so stay tuned :-)  

Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130             (mobile)
636-294-1014                (res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of Sam Siegel
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 4:46 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll  wrote:
> In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
> backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
> non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems"
> background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.

I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a requirement
of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
is a typical rough and ready analogy.

I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague understanding
of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.

The list goes on and on.

>
> ===
> Wayne Driscoll
> OMEGAMON DB2 L3 Support/Development
> wdrisco(AT)us.ibm.com
> ===
>
>
>
> From:
> "R.S." 
> To:
> IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Date:
> 07/18/2011 03:50 PM
> Subject:
> Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands
> Sent by:
> IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>
>
>
> W dniu 2011-07-18 22:15, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
> [...]
>> As upper management perceives, even through media such as airline
>> magazines, that (some; I'm confident not all) z/OS systems programmers
>> exhibit public delight in unwillingness to assimilate new technology and
>> in performing their jobs in a needlessly difficult, even painful manner,
>
> I'm not 'upper management', I'm very downlevel manager and I don't read
> airline magazines at all, I prefer some good redbook instead... HOWEVER
> MY OPINION IS EXACTLY AS THE ABOVE!
> Yes, majority of mainframe people I ever met do their job in needlessly
> difficult, sometimes even painful manner. SOme of them are absolutely
> unwilling to assimilate anything "new", even like DFSMS (is it modern?
> is it "cool"? did it come from "colorful worlds of Windows, Apple etc."?).
> Of course there are also people more opne-minded, but the majority...
> Oh, someone could say there are old farts and young wolves. No, the
> division is not so simple, I know clever open-minded gray-haired folks
> and young but very "old-minded" adepts.
>
>
>> it bodes ill for the future of the platform.
> Yes, I wish it would be untrue.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
> --
> Tre   tej wiadomo ci mo e zawiera  informacje prawnie chronione Banku
> przeznaczone wy  cznie do u ytku s u bowego adresata. Odbiorc  mo e by
> jedynie jej adresat z wy  czeniem dost pu osób trzecich. Je eli nie jeste
> adresatem niniejszej wiadomo ci lub pracownikiem upowa nionym do jej
> przekazania adresatowi, informujemy,  e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie,
> rozprowadzanie lub inne dzia anie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie
> zabronione i mo e by  karalne. Je eli otrzyma e  t  wiadomo   omy kowo,
> prosimy niezw ocznie zawiadomi  nadawc  wysy aj c odpowied  oraz trwale
> usun   t  wiadomo   w  czaj c w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub
> zapisane na dysku.
>
> This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is
> intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be
> received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties.
> If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee
> authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any
> dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is
> legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by
> mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility
> in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any
> copies of it either

Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[R.S.]

W dniu 2011-07-18 23:10, Wayne Driscoll pisze:

In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems"
background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.


My observation is the same. But it's not related to the previous statement.

BTW: Common joke in (young) mainframe community in Poland:
Why, the hell, does it work in such way???
Just to make mainframe more complicated.
"to make it more complicated"

Oh, BTW, please don't kill messenger. I never said that I like such 
situation, but I would be dishonest claiming ther things are different.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku 
przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie 
jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem 
niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania 
adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie 
lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by 
karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie 
zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo 
wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. 


BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax 
+48 (22) 829 00 33, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl
Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. 
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2011 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.346.696 zotych.


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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Jim Thomas]

!. 


Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130     (mobile)
636-294-1014    (res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of R.S.
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 3:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

W dniu 2011-07-18 22:15, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
[...]
> As upper management perceives, even through media such as airline
> magazines, that (some; I'm confident not all) z/OS systems programmers
> exhibit public delight in unwillingness to assimilate new technology and
> in performing their jobs in a needlessly difficult, even painful manner,

I'm not 'upper management', I'm very downlevel manager and I don't read 
airline magazines at all, I prefer some good redbook instead... HOWEVER 
MY OPINION IS EXACTLY AS THE ABOVE!
Yes, majority of mainframe people I ever met do their job in needlessly 
difficult, sometimes even painful manner. SOme of them are absolutely 
unwilling to assimilate anything "new", even like DFSMS (is it modern? 
is it "cool"? did it come from "colorful worlds of Windows, Apple etc."?).
Of course there are also people more opne-minded, but the majority...
Oh, someone could say there are old farts and young wolves. No, the 
division is not so simple, I know clever open-minded gray-haired folks 
and young but very "old-minded" adepts.


> it bodes ill for the future of the platform.
Yes, I wish it would be untrue.

-- 
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku
przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by
jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste
adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej
przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie,
rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie
zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo,
prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale
usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub
zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is
intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be
received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If
you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised
to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying,
distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be
punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender
immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete
permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved
to hard drive. 

BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00,
fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl
Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru
Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. 
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2011 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w
caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.346.696 zotych.

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-
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Jim Thomas]

Hear Hear ... I guess I'm not the only one that feels 
this way ...

I will have a 'nasty-gram' later ... so stay tuned :-)  

Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130 (mobile)
636-294-1014(res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of Sam Siegel
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 4:46 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll  wrote:
> In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
> backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
> non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems"
> background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.

I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a requirement
of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
is a typical rough and ready analogy.

I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague understanding
of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.

The list goes on and on.

>
> ===
> Wayne Driscoll
> OMEGAMON DB2 L3 Support/Development
> wdrisco(AT)us.ibm.com
> ===
>
>
>
> From:
> "R.S." 
> To:
> IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Date:
> 07/18/2011 03:50 PM
> Subject:
> Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands
> Sent by:
> IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>
>
>
> W dniu 2011-07-18 22:15, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
> [...]
>> As upper management perceives, even through media such as airline
>> magazines, that (some; I'm confident not all) z/OS systems programmers
>> exhibit public delight in unwillingness to assimilate new technology and
>> in performing their jobs in a needlessly difficult, even painful manner,
>
> I'm not 'upper management', I'm very downlevel manager and I don't read
> airline magazines at all, I prefer some good redbook instead... HOWEVER
> MY OPINION IS EXACTLY AS THE ABOVE!
> Yes, majority of mainframe people I ever met do their job in needlessly
> difficult, sometimes even painful manner. SOme of them are absolutely
> unwilling to assimilate anything "new", even like DFSMS (is it modern?
> is it "cool"? did it come from "colorful worlds of Windows, Apple etc."?).
> Of course there are also people more opne-minded, but the majority...
> Oh, someone could say there are old farts and young wolves. No, the
> division is not so simple, I know clever open-minded gray-haired folks
> and young but very "old-minded" adepts.
>
>
>> it bodes ill for the future of the platform.
> Yes, I wish it would be untrue.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
> --
> Tre   tej wiadomo ci mo e zawiera  informacje prawnie chronione Banku
> przeznaczone wy  cznie do u ytku s u bowego adresata. Odbiorc  mo e by
> jedynie jej adresat z wy  czeniem dost pu osób trzecich. Je eli nie jeste
> adresatem niniejszej wiadomo ci lub pracownikiem upowa nionym do jej
> przekazania adresatowi, informujemy,  e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie,
> rozprowadzanie lub inne dzia anie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie
> zabronione i mo e by  karalne. Je eli otrzyma e  t  wiadomo   omy kowo,
> prosimy niezw ocznie zawiadomi  nadawc  wysy aj c odpowied  oraz trwale
> usun   t  wiadomo   w  czaj c w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub
> zapisane na dysku.
>
> This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is
> intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be
> received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties.
> If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee
> authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any
> dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is
> legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by
> mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility
> in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any
> copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.
>
> BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00,
> fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl
> S d Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia  Gospodarczy Krajowego
> Rejestru S dowego, nr rejestru przedsi biorców KRS 025237, NIP:
> 526-021-50-88.
> Wed ug stanu na dzie  01

Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Sam Siegel]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Wayne Driscoll  wrote:
> In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe
> backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of
> non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems"
> background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.

I completely agree with this statement.  It is typically a requirement
of mainframe types to understand open system terminology and then
speak of mainframe using open systems language.  sysplex vs. cluster
is a typical rough and ready analogy.

I've yet to see an open system person have even a vague understanding
of record oriented I/O or PDS processing.

The list goes on and on.

>
> ===
> Wayne Driscoll
> OMEGAMON DB2 L3 Support/Development
> wdrisco(AT)us.ibm.com
> ===
>
>
>
> From:
> "R.S." 
> To:
> IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Date:
> 07/18/2011 03:50 PM
> Subject:
> Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands
> Sent by:
> IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>
>
>
> W dniu 2011-07-18 22:15, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
> [...]
>> As upper management perceives, even through media such as airline
>> magazines, that (some; I'm confident not all) z/OS systems programmers
>> exhibit public delight in unwillingness to assimilate new technology and
>> in performing their jobs in a needlessly difficult, even painful manner,
>
> I'm not 'upper management', I'm very downlevel manager and I don't read
> airline magazines at all, I prefer some good redbook instead... HOWEVER
> MY OPINION IS EXACTLY AS THE ABOVE!
> Yes, majority of mainframe people I ever met do their job in needlessly
> difficult, sometimes even painful manner. SOme of them are absolutely
> unwilling to assimilate anything "new", even like DFSMS (is it modern?
> is it "cool"? did it come from "colorful worlds of Windows, Apple etc."?).
> Of course there are also people more opne-minded, but the majority...
> Oh, someone could say there are old farts and young wolves. No, the
> division is not so simple, I know clever open-minded gray-haired folks
> and young but very "old-minded" adepts.
>
>
>> it bodes ill for the future of the platform.
> Yes, I wish it would be untrue.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
> --
> Tre   tej wiadomo ci mo e zawiera  informacje prawnie chronione Banku
> przeznaczone wy  cznie do u ytku s u bowego adresata. Odbiorc  mo e by
> jedynie jej adresat z wy  czeniem dost pu osób trzecich. Je eli nie jeste
> adresatem niniejszej wiadomo ci lub pracownikiem upowa nionym do jej
> przekazania adresatowi, informujemy,  e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie,
> rozprowadzanie lub inne dzia anie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie
> zabronione i mo e by  karalne. Je eli otrzyma e  t  wiadomo   omy kowo,
> prosimy niezw ocznie zawiadomi  nadawc  wysy aj c odpowied  oraz trwale
> usun   t  wiadomo   w  czaj c w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub
> zapisane na dysku.
>
> This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is
> intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be
> received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties.
> If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee
> authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any
> dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is
> legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by
> mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility
> in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any
> copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.
>
> BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00,
> fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl
> S d Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia  Gospodarczy Krajowego
> Rejestru S dowego, nr rejestru przedsi biorców KRS 025237, NIP:
> 526-021-50-88.
> Wed ug stanu na dzie  01.01.2011 r. kapita  zak adowy BRE Banku SA (w
> ca o ci wp acony) wynosi 168.346.696 z otych.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
>
>
>
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> sen

Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Wayne Driscoll]

In my 20 plus year career I have seen a lot more people with mainframe 
backgrounds expressing a willingness to learn and integrate usage of 
non-mainframe technology than I have seen people from an "open-systems" 
background show a willingness to learn anything about the mainframe.

===
Wayne Driscoll
OMEGAMON DB2 L3 Support/Development
wdrisco(AT)us.ibm.com
===



From:
"R.S." 
To:
IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Date:
07/18/2011 03:50 PM
Subject:
Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands
Sent by:
IBM Mainframe Discussion List 



W dniu 2011-07-18 22:15, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
[...]
> As upper management perceives, even through media such as airline
> magazines, that (some; I'm confident not all) z/OS systems programmers
> exhibit public delight in unwillingness to assimilate new technology and
> in performing their jobs in a needlessly difficult, even painful manner,

I'm not 'upper management', I'm very downlevel manager and I don't read 
airline magazines at all, I prefer some good redbook instead... HOWEVER 
MY OPINION IS EXACTLY AS THE ABOVE!
Yes, majority of mainframe people I ever met do their job in needlessly 
difficult, sometimes even painful manner. SOme of them are absolutely 
unwilling to assimilate anything "new", even like DFSMS (is it modern? 
is it "cool"? did it come from "colorful worlds of Windows, Apple etc."?).
Of course there are also people more opne-minded, but the majority...
Oh, someone could say there are old farts and young wolves. No, the 
division is not so simple, I know clever open-minded gray-haired folks 
and young but very "old-minded" adepts.


> it bodes ill for the future of the platform.
Yes, I wish it would be untrue.

-- 
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku 
przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by 
jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste 
adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej 
przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, 
rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie 
zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, 
prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale 
usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub 
zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is 
intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be 
received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. 
If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee 
authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any 
dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is 
legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by 
mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility 
in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any 
copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. 

BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, 
fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl
Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego 
Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 
526-021-50-88. 
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2011 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w 
caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.346.696 zotych.

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[R.S.]

W dniu 2011-07-18 22:15, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
[...]

As upper management perceives, even through media such as airline
magazines, that (some; I'm confident not all) z/OS systems programmers
exhibit public delight in unwillingness to assimilate new technology and
in performing their jobs in a needlessly difficult, even painful manner,


I'm not 'upper management', I'm very downlevel manager and I don't read 
airline magazines at all, I prefer some good redbook instead... HOWEVER 
MY OPINION IS EXACTLY AS THE ABOVE!
Yes, majority of mainframe people I ever met do their job in needlessly 
difficult, sometimes even painful manner. SOme of them are absolutely 
unwilling to assimilate anything "new", even like DFSMS (is it modern? 
is it "cool"? did it come from "colorful worlds of Windows, Apple etc."?).

Of course there are also people more opne-minded, but the majority...
Oh, someone could say there are old farts and young wolves. No, the 
division is not so simple, I know clever open-minded gray-haired folks 
and young but very "old-minded" adepts.




it bodes ill for the future of the platform.

Yes, I wish it would be untrue.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku 
przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie 
jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem 
niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania 
adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie 
lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by 
karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie 
zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo 
wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. 


BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax 
+48 (22) 829 00 33, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl
Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. 
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2011 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.346.696 zotych.


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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 19:34:25 +0200, Michel Castelein wrote:
>>
>> >JCL consists of about 120 words last I checked (not counting those goofy
>conditional statements IBM created recently for those who couldn't
>comprehend COND codes), average batch job uses about 20 or 25.  ...
>> >
>> It's pretty hard to tell whether you're a Luddite or merely a masochist.
>
>I'm both a Luddite and a masochist, and proud of it.
>
As upper management perceives, even through media such as airline
magazines, that (some; I'm confident not all) z/OS systems programmers
exhibit public delight in unwillingness to assimilate new technology and
in performing their jobs in a needlessly difficult, even painful manner,
it bodes ill for the future of the platform.

My apologies if I overlooked whimsical intent, as I hope.

-- gil

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 07/18/2011
   at 12:44 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler  said:

>However, before that mainframe BSD unix shipped

My understanding is that none of freebsd, netbsd, openbsd[1] can pass
the UNIX® certification from TUG (formerly X-Open).

[1] With corrected capitalization.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <4e243efe.2010...@valley.net>, on 07/18/2011
   at 10:11 AM, Gerhard Postpischil  said:

>Good for you, but some of us have built extensive macro and 
>subroutine libraries to use with assembler, and find it as fast  and
>easy to use those than to live with (the confining  limitations of)
>higher level languages.

And some of us don't regard C as a higher level language.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

charl...@mcn.org (Charles Mills) writes:
> Somewhat OT but why? Why not C on the mainframe? Why two code bases, one
> fairly easy to debug and one relatively hard to debug?
>
> I am thrilled with writing software for the mainframe in C (C++ actually)
> after years of laboring in assembler.

the los gatos vlsi lab was using metaware for a lot of (mainframe) vlsi
tool development. two people from the group then di mainframe pascal
compiler ... which eventually evolved into vs/pascal product.

I was working on getting one of the people (responsible for mainframe
pascal) to do C language front-end ... when he left and went to work for
metaware. when the palo alto group was planning on doing BSD unix for
mainframe, I talked them into contracting with metaware for the C
compiler. However, before that mainframe BSD unix shipped, the group was
retargeted to PC/RT ... eventually coming out with "AOS" (bsd unix
running on pc/rt) ... but still using metaware's c compiler.

the disk division eventually sponsored the posix support on MVS ...  one
of the many things they were doing to try and get around the
stranglehold that the communication group had on the mainframe
datacenter (most of which the communication group vetoed ... since the
communication group had strategic ownership for everything that crossed
the datacenter walls; disk division being hdqtrd in silicon valley
possibly helped with their perspective)

misc past posts mentioning disk division talk at annual, internal,
world-wide communication group conference that started out with the
statement that the communication group was going to be responsible for
the demise of the disk division (the communication group stranglehold
was already resulting in data fleeing the mainframe datacenter to more
distributed computing friendly platforms).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#terminal

a co-worker that helped with the original CMSBACK (eventually morphs
into today's TSM) ... misc. past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#backup

... left and did a lot of consulting for various silicon valley chip
shops. At one place, he did a lot of work and enhancements for the AT&T
C compiler (and some number of other vendor C compilers) for their
operations on mainframe (as part of porting BSD vlsi tools to the
mainframe). At one point he was doing a lot of work doing mainframe
ethernet support as part of supporting SGI graphics workstations for
displaying VLSI designs. The salesman dropped in and asked him what was
going on and after being told, the salesman suggested that he should be
doing token-ring support instead (or otherwise the customer might find
mainframe support and maintenance suffering).  Afterwards, I got a phone
call and had to listen to several hours of comments about the company,
local branch office and salesmen. The next morning, the vlsi company had
big press release that they were moving off mainframe to servers.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <3339201005293115.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu>, on
07/17/2011
   at 11:13 AM, Paul Gilmartin  said:

>It's pretty hard to tell whether you're a Luddite or merely a
>masochist.

Especially if he's neither, just more perceptive than you.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Gerhard Postpischil]

On 7/18/2011 9:22 AM, Charles Mills wrote:

The Mainframe version written in Assembler. The PC version is written in

C.

Somewhat OT but why? Why not C on the mainframe? Why two code bases, one
fairly easy to debug and one relatively hard to debug?


Perhaps there are historical reasons - one version existed long 
before Clement decided to add PC support, and the C route looked 
easier than converting mainframe assembler to PC?



I am thrilled with writing software for the mainframe in C (C++ actually)
after years of laboring in assembler.


Good for you, but some of us have built extensive macro and 
subroutine libraries to use with assembler, and find it as fast 
and easy to use those than to live with (the confining 
limitations of) higher level languages. De gustibus.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Charles Mills]

> The Mainframe version written in Assembler. The PC version is written in
C.

Somewhat OT but why? Why not C on the mainframe? Why two code bases, one
fairly easy to debug and one relatively hard to debug?

I am thrilled with writing software for the mainframe in C (C++ actually)
after years of laboring in assembler.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf
Of Clement Clarke
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 8:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like
commands

Thanks for all the questions.  I'll put the questions and answers together
for convenience.

Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 23:35:30 +1000, Clement Clarke wrote:
>
> Isn't much of this what SMS is designed to do nowadays?
You can still use SMS.  Jol uses a simple VSAM file to store the information
in. It's easy to add or change information.
> Do I understand two separate modes of operation, dynamic and 
> generative?
Yes.  It can generate JCL, or use Dynamic Allocation to run the job in
Batch, or immediately under TSO.

> Does it provide en masse enqueues as JCL does, to avoid deadlocks?  I 
> suppose this would be intrinsic in a generative mode.
In Dynamic Allocation mode, there is still some JCL generated to ensure
this.

In TSO (Immediate mode), it is on a program by program basis.

There is also an Enque instruction which you can use to enque on any
resource.
> How does it interface with JES3 setup processing?
It has instructions to interface with JES3. You can also put any JCL
statement out as part of the generated JCL.

And there is an extremely flexible Macro language you can use to create new
English style commands. These commands can effectively do anything from
running programs in the compiler phase, or have them run at execution time.
Or even generate JCL card images.
> In a dynamic mode, are there any restrictions on running 
> APF-authorized programs?  Must the interpreter be APF- authorized?
There is a Jol Execution Monitor.  It must be APF authorized to allow
authorized programs to run. It uses the same style of ATTACH that the
Initiator uses.

It also allows Jol to put all important information on the Job Log.  So, for
example, all Catalog and Delete statement results can be found in one place,
instead of having to hunt through the JCL listing.
> Ia it portable?  In at least a generative mode, can it run on a non-z 
> platform?  I keep much of my JCL as here- documents (in-stream files) 
> in self-tailoring shell scripts on a Solaris platform (could be z/OS 
> Unix except for performance and flexibility).
There are two main versions.  The Mainframe version written in Assembler.

The PC version is written in C. It will execute on Windows and generate
Mainframe JCL to submit.

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Miklos Szigetvari]

Hi

Till now I didn't find a working link to a description/download

On 7/18/2011 2:41 PM, Clement Clarke wrote:
Thanks for all the questions.  I'll put the questions and answers 
together for convenience.


Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 23:35:30 +1000, Clement Clarke wrote:

Isn't much of this what SMS is designed to do nowadays?
You can still use SMS.  Jol uses a simple VSAM file to store the 
information in. It's easy to add or change information.

Do I understand two separate modes of operation, dynamic
and generative?
Yes.  It can generate JCL, or use Dynamic Allocation to run the job in 
Batch, or immediately under TSO.



Does it provide en masse enqueues as JCL does, to avoid
deadlocks?  I suppose this would be intrinsic in a generative
mode.
In Dynamic Allocation mode, there is still some JCL generated to 
ensure this.


In TSO (Immediate mode), it is on a program by program basis.

There is also an Enque instruction which you can use to enque on any 
resource.

How does it interface with JES3 setup processing?
It has instructions to interface with JES3. You can also put any JCL 
statement out as part of the generated JCL.


And there is an extremely flexible Macro language you can use to 
create new English style commands. These commands can effectively do 
anything from running programs in the compiler phase, or have them run 
at execution time. Or even generate JCL card images.

In a dynamic mode, are there any restrictions on running
APF-authorized programs?  Must the interpreter be APF-
authorized?
There is a Jol Execution Monitor.  It must be APF authorized to allow 
authorized programs to run. It uses the same style of ATTACH that the 
Initiator uses.


It also allows Jol to put all important information on the Job Log.  
So, for example, all Catalog and Delete statement results can be found 
in one place, instead of having to hunt through the JCL listing.

Ia it portable?  In at least a generative mode, can it run
on a non-z platform?  I keep much of my JCL as here-
documents (in-stream files) in self-tailoring shell scripts
on a Solaris platform (could be z/OS Unix except for
performance and flexibility).

There are two main versions.  The Mainframe version written in Assembler.

The PC version is written in C. It will execute on Windows and 
generate Mainframe JCL to submit.


The Linux version is 99% complete.

And does it address more of the recurrent JCL complaints:

o PARM>100 characters?

Parameters can be up to 3,000 characters in length.

o In-stream data sets in procedures?  (Ah!  that's coming in
   z/OS 1.13.)?
Instream data is supported.  Not only that - substitution of Symbolic 
Parameters may be done in the "card" image files to generate utility 
control cards.


And we can use Allocate, Read and Write instructions for any data set 
at Compile Time.  Data can be read directly into Symbolic Variables, 
and tested and manipulated with IF and SET instructions. This facility 
is used, for example, in the SAVESYMS command which saves specified 
Symbolic Variables in a file that can be accessed by another job to 
created a tailored job stream depending on what the first job did.


There is also a Panel instruction that is used to display full screen 
data entry panels, complete with Menu Bars and Pulldown lists. User 
data entered is stored in Symbolic Variables, and can be used as any 
other Symbolic Variable - tested, added to others, and so on.

o Substitution of dynamic system symbols?
Substitution of  Symbolic Parameters.  Jol automatically sets various 
symbols up such as the current day and so on. Symbolic variables can 
be tested, set or used in arithmetic. For example:


If %day = 'Monday' then
Copy Input.Data.Set to Backup.ofMainFile.%day;   /* Note %day in 
Dsname */


User exits can also create any symbols you require.  Exits can be 
written in Assembler or PL/I.

o Symbol substitution in in-stream data sets?

Yes. For example:
Declare X * replace;
This is a card image file.
Today is %year,%month,%day
EOF;

-- gil


Thanks again,

Clem Clarke

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Clement Clarke]

Thanks for all the questions.  I'll put the questions and answers 
together for convenience.


Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 23:35:30 +1000, Clement Clarke wrote:

Isn't much of this what SMS is designed to do nowadays?
You can still use SMS.  Jol uses a simple VSAM file to store the 
information in. It's easy to add or change information.

Do I understand two separate modes of operation, dynamic
and generative?
Yes.  It can generate JCL, or use Dynamic Allocation to run the job in 
Batch, or immediately under TSO.



Does it provide en masse enqueues as JCL does, to avoid
deadlocks?  I suppose this would be intrinsic in a generative
mode.
In Dynamic Allocation mode, there is still some JCL generated to ensure 
this.


In TSO (Immediate mode), it is on a program by program basis.

There is also an Enque instruction which you can use to enque on any 
resource.

How does it interface with JES3 setup processing?
It has instructions to interface with JES3. You can also put any JCL 
statement out as part of the generated JCL.


And there is an extremely flexible Macro language you can use to create 
new English style commands. These commands can effectively do anything 
from running programs in the compiler phase, or have them run at 
execution time. Or even generate JCL card images.

In a dynamic mode, are there any restrictions on running
APF-authorized programs?  Must the interpreter be APF-
authorized?
There is a Jol Execution Monitor.  It must be APF authorized to allow 
authorized programs to run. It uses the same style of ATTACH that the 
Initiator uses.


It also allows Jol to put all important information on the Job Log.  So, 
for example, all Catalog and Delete statement results can be found in 
one place, instead of having to hunt through the JCL listing.

Ia it portable?  In at least a generative mode, can it run
on a non-z platform?  I keep much of my JCL as here-
documents (in-stream files) in self-tailoring shell scripts
on a Solaris platform (could be z/OS Unix except for
performance and flexibility).

There are two main versions.  The Mainframe version written in Assembler.

The PC version is written in C. It will execute on Windows and generate 
Mainframe JCL to submit.


The Linux version is 99% complete.

And does it address more of the recurrent JCL complaints:

o PARM>100 characters?

Parameters can be up to 3,000 characters in length.

o In-stream data sets in procedures?  (Ah!  that's coming in
   z/OS 1.13.)?
Instream data is supported.  Not only that - substitution of Symbolic 
Parameters may be done in the "card" image files to generate utility 
control cards.


And we can use Allocate, Read and Write instructions for any data set at 
Compile Time.  Data can be read directly into Symbolic Variables, and 
tested and manipulated with IF and SET instructions. This facility is 
used, for example, in the SAVESYMS command which saves specified 
Symbolic Variables in a file that can be accessed by another job to 
created a tailored job stream depending on what the first job did.


There is also a Panel instruction that is used to display full screen 
data entry panels, complete with Menu Bars and Pulldown lists. User data 
entered is stored in Symbolic Variables, and can be used as any other 
Symbolic Variable - tested, added to others, and so on.

o Substitution of dynamic system symbols?
Substitution of  Symbolic Parameters.  Jol automatically sets various 
symbols up such as the current day and so on. Symbolic variables can be 
tested, set or used in arithmetic. For example:


If %day = 'Monday' then
Copy Input.Data.Set to Backup.ofMainFile.%day;   /* Note %day in 
Dsname */


User exits can also create any symbols you require.  Exits can be 
written in Assembler or PL/I.

o Symbol substitution in in-stream data sets?

Yes. For example:
Declare X * replace;
This is a card image file.
Today is %year,%month,%day
EOF;

-- gil


Thanks again,

Clem Clarke

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Michel Castelein]

"Paul Gilmartin"  wrote in message
news:<3339201005293115.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu>...
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 09:00:16 -0700, Cris Hernandez #9  wrote:
>
> >JCL consists of about 120 words last I checked (not counting those goofy
conditional statements IBM created recently for those who couldn't
comprehend COND codes), average batch job uses about 20 or 25.  ...
> >
> It's pretty hard to tell whether you're a Luddite or merely a masochist.

I'm both a Luddite and a masochist, and proud of it.

Michel
-
Michel Castelein
z/OS instructor & consultant
http://www.arcis-services.net


>
> -- gil
>
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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 09:00:16 -0700, Cris Hernandez #9  wrote:

>JCL consists of about 120 words last I checked (not counting those goofy 
>conditional statements IBM created recently for those who couldn't comprehend 
>COND codes), average batch job uses about 20 or 25.  ...
>
It's pretty hard to tell whether you're a Luddite or merely a masochist.

-- gil

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Cris Hernandez #9]

JCL consists of about 120 words last I checked (not counting those goofy 
conditional statements IBM created recently for those who couldn't comprehend 
COND codes), average batch job uses about 20 or 25.  Seems a whole lot easier 
to me to just learn JCL.   

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 23:35:30 +1000, Clement Clarke wrote:

>All Operating Systems run Programs, use Data Sets or Files, and have
>some sort of Command Language.
>
>If Z/OS Users didn't have to be concerned about DCB, SPACE and so on,
>then they could write JCL that was very similar to Unix or Linux.
>
>If all that information is stored in a Data Base of Data Sets, then it
>would be quite possible to allocate new data sets when necessary, and
>hide all the normal JCL information from the User.
> 
Isn't much of this what SMS is designed to do nowadays?

>All we would have to do is remember which order to put the file names
>in, and have a program get all the DCB etc information for output data
>sets, and either dynamically allocate them, or generate JCL for them.
> 
Do I understand two separate modes of operation, dynamic
and generative?

Does it provide en masse enqueues as JCL does, to avoid
deadlocks?  I suppose this would be intrinsic in a generative
mode.

How does it interface with JES3 setup processing?

In a dynamic mode, are there any restrictions on running
APF-authorized programs?  Must the interpreter be APF-
authorized?

Ia it portable?  In at least a generative mode, can it run
on a non-z platform?  I keep much of my JCL as here-
documents (in-stream files) in self-tailoring shell scripts
on a Solaris platform (could be z/OS Unix except for
performance and flexibility).

And does it address more of the recurrent JCL complaints:

o PARM>100 characters?

o In-stream data sets in procedures?  (Ah!  that's coming in
  z/OS 1.13.)?

o Substitution of dynamic system symbols?

o Symbol substitution in in-stream data sets?

-- gil

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[Ted MacNEIL]

>If Z/OS Users didn't have to be concerned about DCB, SPACE and so on, then 
>they could write JCL that was very similar to Unix or Linux.

If you implement properly under SMS, you can reduce the burden significantly.
And, it's probably less complex than a DCB database.
-
Ted MacNEIL
eamacn...@yahoo.ca
Twitter: @TedMacNEIL

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Re: Making Z/OS easier - Effectively replacing JCL with Unix like commands

[R.S.]

z/OS users can also use unix-like shell scripts, REXX scripts, CLIST 
scripts...
It's also possible to run such scripts "under JCL" or submit JCL jobs 
from the scripts, etc.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


W dniu 2011-07-17 15:35, Clement Clarke pisze:

All Operating Systems run Programs, use Data Sets or Files, and have
some sort of Command Language.

If Z/OS Users didn't have to be concerned about DCB, SPACE and so on,
then they could write JCL that was very similar to Unix or Linux.

If all that information is stored in a Data Base of Data Sets, then it
would be quite possible to allocate new data sets when necessary, and
hide all the normal JCL information from the User.

All we would have to do is remember which order to put the file names
in, and have a program get all the DCB etc information for output data
sets, and either dynamically allocate them, or generate JCL for them.

And so, you could write a Script that looked something like this:

__
Payroll: Job class C Size 1000 k name c.clarke 10,3 mins acct payroll;

Validate:
Exec PayValid
Printer
Input.Trans, Trans.Action(+1); /* Validate Transations */
if Validate=0
then do;
Sort Trans.Action(+1) to Sorted.Trans.Action(+1)
Fields=(10,10,CH,A);
Update:
Exec PayUpd
Printer
Payroll.Master(0), Sorted.Trans.Action(+1),
Payroll.Master(+1);
If Update = 0
then do;
Catalog Payroll.Master(+1), Sorted.Trans.Action(+1);
Backup Payroll.Master(+1), Sorted.Trans.Action(+1);
Submit Job2;
end;
end;
else Stop 'Error in PAYROLL Job';


Such a program exists. It is called Jol.

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