Re: zAAP question
Doh. OK, their software revenues are the issue. I don't usually have to deal with that aspect of things, so it doesn't always occur to me. It's a pea counter thing, nothing else. One day, all the stuff running on z/OS will be either zAAPzIIPzOOP- enabled JAVA, zAAPzIIPzOOP-enabled COBOL, zAAzIIPzOOP-enabled PL/1, or zAAPzIIPzOOP-enabled HLASM code. Imagine there are only CPUs, what a wonderful, simple world this must be. Longing for it to become real again... (and before anyone asks: the zOOP is served - pun intended :-) -- Peter Hunkeler Credit Suisse -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Tom, Can you clarify your statement about *current* zAAP explotation by Object-Oriented COBOL? AFAIK, the current Enterprise Cobol compiler allows you to create a DLL that runs as a JNI library. But - the JNI library is *not* zAAP eligible. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies On 11/9/07, Tom Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of If I want to exploit a zAAP processor with my own code, that code must be written in Java. Perhaps also with a note that my code might run IBM (or other vendor?) supplied code which might run on a zAAP (like XML is going to). But there is no way for be to LEGALLY get my COBOL code to run on a zAAP. Well, if you write Object-Oriented COBOL then part of it runs in the JVM so you would have partial zAAP exploitation. And a future version of Enterprise COBOL could exploit the XMLSS parser of z/OS...which would offload some more cycles on to zAPP. Can't tell you anything now, or I would have to shoot you. Of course, a vendor once told me if I had to shoot him, I am IBM, and the bullet would be years late and miss anyway. Ouch! But it was funny... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Fw: zAAP question
Anyone that does not want Tom to shoot them G and does want to follow IBM's PUBLIC statements on both zAAP, zIIP, XML, etc support with COBOL may want to follow the SHARE requirements: SSLNGC07004 zAAP and zIIP eligible XML support in COBOL currently waiting for an IBM response. If this is of particular interest to your shop, I recommend that you submit a marketing REQUEST referencing this requirement. Tom Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of If I want to exploit a zAAP processor with my own code, that code must be written in Java. Perhaps also with a note that my code might run IBM (or other vendor?) supplied code which might run on a zAAP (like XML is going to). But there is no way for be to LEGALLY get my COBOL code to run on a zAAP. Well, if you write Object-Oriented COBOL then part of it runs in the JVM so you would have partial zAAP exploitation. And a future version of Enterprise COBOL could exploit the XMLSS parser of z/OS...which would offload some more cycles on to zAPP. Can't tell you anything now, or I would have to shoot you. Of course, a vendor once told me if I had to shoot him, I am IBM, and the bullet would be years late and miss anyway. Ouch! But it was funny... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Sam Knutson writes: GP = $$$ ICF = $$ IFL or IFA = $ Even in reference exclusively to hardware pricing, it's a little more complicated. First of all, the hardware price for a zIIP is the same as an IFL is the same as a zAAP (seen as IFA in RMF reports). So you can add zIIP to that list. But here's the twist: you cannot buy a zIIP or a zAAP without at least some CP capacity. Moreover, you can only configure a maximum of one zIIP and one zAAP -- it can be one of each -- per full or fractional (subcapacity) CP engine. So because the configurations are interdependent, the hardware pricing is also (quite arguably) interdependent. To use an analogy, is the price to play a round of golf at a country club only the greens fee, or is it also some pro-rata share of the membership fee? To use another analogy, can you go to your local car dealer and order just the parking assist sensor option, separately? Or do you have to buy a car and then add that option for an extra fee? (OK, yes, in theory you could go to the parts window and buy the parking assist sensor separately, but it wouldn't do anything without a car to attach it to.) That said, you can buy an IFL-only mainframe (or for that matter a CF-only mainframe), so those are different yet again. But in general I think of business computing (regardless of platform) more in terms of capital expense accounting than, say, buying a hamburger to consume right now. For capital equipment, prices and costs have time dimensions and multiple interdependent factors. To use my car analogy again, does anyone here buy the cheapest car? (That would be a beater Yugo I guess.) What car(s) do you own? But there is some simple advice, at least for zIIPs and zAAPs: if you have a non-trivial amount of work that is eligible to run on zIIP and/or zAAP engines, buy as much zIIP and/or zAAP as you can until either you cannot configure any more zIIP/zAAP capacity or you have reduced the amount of eligible work running on the CPs back to trivial. The definition of trivial will vary a bit but usually it'll be obvious. - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of If I want to exploit a zAAP processor with my own code, that code must be written in Java. Perhaps also with a note that my code might run IBM (or other vendor?) supplied code which might run on a zAAP (like XML is going to). But there is no way for be to LEGALLY get my COBOL code to run on a zAAP. Well, if you write Object-Oriented COBOL then part of it runs in the JVM so you would have partial zAAP exploitation. And a future version of Enterprise COBOL could exploit the XMLSS parser of z/OS...which would offload some more cycles on to zAPP. Can't tell you anything now, or I would have to shoot you. Of course, a vendor once told me if I had to shoot him, I am IBM, and the bullet would be years late and miss anyway. Ouch! But it was funny... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
I think the GP engines generally are priced at around twice the price of the specialty engines. And add to the MSU cost of IBM and third party software Not necessarily nowadays, and it's a very important point to understand. The world has changed. If you're on IBM VWLC (Variable Workload License Charge), then if you add CP hardware capacity the only way you would pay more for software is if you raise your (soft)caps (assuming you were hitting your softcaps prior to the upgrade). How much excess hardware capacity you have is irrelevant now for VWLC software charges. In fact, since workload can spill above a softcap (for less than 4 hours rolling average), it's quite possible for a hardware capacity increase to give you more throughput without any change in your software bill. This means it may be advantageous to have some CP capacity above softcaps, depending on the profile of your workloads. (Examples: a 9:00 a.m. login spike, or a 9:30 a.m. market open spike. Temporary spikes like these could be software-free.) If you do raise your (soft)caps, it depends on how you raise them. If you raise them on an LPAR that runs DB2 but not on any of the IMS LPARs then your IMS charge stays the same and your DB2 charge increases (on a volume discount curve: additional MSUs cost less). And you might only be raising them for seasonal reasons (e.g. end of year reporting, Christmas shopping, annual benefits enrollment, conversion project to import data for a merger, etc.), so this might be temporary above baseline. Previously you had to pay for the whole capacity for the whole year and beyond. Another problem businesses had were the boom-bust cycles. That is, previously if you bought CP capacity to handle a surge in your business (strong economy), you were in pain when your business contracted during the next recession because you were still paying full capacity. Not any more -- now you just reduce your softcaps, and that extra CP capacity isn't incurring monthly software charges during the lean times, but it's ready to go when the economy recovers. There are some exceptions. Some of the biggest exceptions are third party software contracts. It depends on the vendor, and some of them are introducing variable charges of at least some flavor. (There's also more choice now, so you can comparison shop for better contract terms.) Also, there are a small number of IBM products, typically vintage products, that are charged at full capacity. A lot of businesses don't have any of these products, but a few do. As a generalization, net net, you are in control with the caps, and the CP hardware capacity is only the ceiling, not also the floor. This is a Good Thing. - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
GP = $$$ ICF = $$ IFL or IFA = $ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 1:22 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John I was more curious about how much more a CP costs than a speciality engine. I don't want another CP. We are currently a z9BC-T02, looking at upgrading to a V02 fairly soon. And I don't make such decisions anyway. I'm just a grunt. I think the GP engines generally are priced at around twice the price of the specialty engines. -jc- This email/fax message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of this email/fax is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all paper and electronic copies of the original message. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Driscoll Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:16 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question John, I believe that the zAAP, zIIP, and IFL list at between 100K-125K (US pricing only), for the z9 machines. However, we all know what the list price means. As for a general CP, I can't recall seeing a price for it, but recall that adding a CP could increase your software licensing fees as well, so that would be a much harder number to quantify. Wayne Driscoll I was more curious about how much more a CP costs than a speciality engine. I don't want another CP. We are currently a z9BC-T02, looking at upgrading to a V02 fairly soon. And I don't make such decisions anyway. I'm just a grunt. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
John, I believe that the zAAP, zIIP, and IFL list at between 100K-125K (US pricing only), for the z9 machines. However, we all know what the list price means. As for a general CP, I can't recall seeing a price for it, but recall that adding a CP could increase your software licensing fees as well, so that would be a much harder number to quantify. Wayne Driscoll Product Developer JME Software LLC NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Harminc Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 10:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question Tony H. Just as a curiousity, was is the cost to acquire a zAAP, zIIP, IFL, CFL, and a general CP? I mean the hardware cost, exclusive of any software costs. One person said, off line, that a zAAP cost them around US $50K. I guess it depends, but I am curious about any ball park figures. I'm still trying, off and on, to convince management that a zAAP and some Java applications (CICS and maybe even batch) might be cost effective. Unfortunately, it appears that management only understands ancient Egyptian for all the good I am accomplishing. I've also mentioned a zIIP if Oracle uses it (don't know) or if we every wake up and use DB2 instead of Oracle. Oracle on z/OS is a good lip service product around here, but we are not doing much of anything. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
In a message dated 11/7/2007 9:22:35 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Um-m-m, color me dense today. Why would they do that? It's not obvious to me. Don't they *want* JNI library writers (and smart application groups at end-user companies) to actually *use* these interfaces? Why would they be hidden? Is that the one between vermilion and puce? Anyway, it's a slippery slope. The zAAPs are a work around to improve thruput for JAVA without adding to the cash cow Z/OS software costs-Extending the platform life. ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Farley, Peter x23353 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... -Original Message- From: Kirk Wolf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 10:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question Snipped IBM does not disclose the technical bits about what makes a JNI library zAAP eligible, for obvious reasons. Um-m-m, color me dense today. Why would they do that? It's not obvious to me. Don't they *want* JNI library writers (and smart application groups at end-user companies) to actually *use* these interfaces? Why would they be hidden? Peter Why? For the obvious reasons of course: if I knew which bit to set to make (any) code zAAP eligible, well uhm-m-m, you know what I mean... Kees. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Farley, Peter x23353 -Original Message- From: Kirk Wolf Snipped IBM does not disclose the technical bits about what makes a JNI library zAAP eligible, for obvious reasons. Um-m-m, color me dense today. Why would they do that? It's not obvious to me. Don't they *want* JNI library writers (and smart application groups at end-user companies) to actually *use* these interfaces? Why would they be hidden? The zAAP is just another CPU engine, and cannot, by itself, identify whether the instruction it's executing now originated from within a Java program or any other program. If IBM were to publish the eligibility determination interface, then anybody could switch the processing of any program to run on the zAAP. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
A zAAP can only run Java code. This is not true. A zAAP *can* run any kind of code. The only original exploiter of switching to zAAP was Java. So it is closer to correct if you were to say A zAAP does run only Java code. But even that is not fully correct, as has been pointed out, the system does not immediately switch off of a zAAP when leaving Java (just as it does not immediately switch to a zAAP upon entering Java). We think of that as a lazy switch. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John I was more curious about how much more a CP costs than a speciality engine. I don't want another CP. We are currently a z9BC-T02, looking at upgrading to a V02 fairly soon. And I don't make such decisions anyway. I'm just a grunt. I think the GP engines generally are priced at around twice the price of the specialty engines. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:26:12 -0600, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of If I want to exploit a zAAP processor with my own code, that code must be written in Java. Perhaps also with a note that my code might run IBM (or other vendor?) supplied code which might run on a zAAP (like XML is going to). But there is no way for be to LEGALLY get my COBOL code to run on a zAAP. Well I'm not so sure... What if your COBOL compiler were to compile into JVM bytecodes? I seem to remember at least one commercial product out there that does just that, and there are lots of experimental efforts to compile various languages for the JVM. Or what if your COBOL compiler were to compile into Java source code, which was then turned into bytecodes (maybe even by IBM's Java compiler)? Of course there are potential functional and performance problems with this approach, but there may well be financial incentive to do it if the zAAP price is kept artificially low (or if you prefer, the general CP price is kept artificially high). Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: Kirk Wolf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 10:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question Snipped IBM does not disclose the technical bits about what makes a JNI library zAAP eligible, for obvious reasons. Um-m-m, color me dense today. Why would they do that? It's not obvious to me. Don't they *want* JNI library writers (and smart application groups at end-user companies) to actually *use* these interfaces? Why would they be hidden? Peter This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Relson Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 6:27 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question A zAAP can only run Java code. This is not true. A zAAP *can* run any kind of code. The only original exploiter of switching to zAAP was Java. So it is closer to correct if you were to say A zAAP does run only Java code. But even that is not fully correct, as has been pointed out, the system does not immediately switch off of a zAAP when leaving Java (just as it does not immediately switch to a zAAP upon entering Java). We think of that as a lazy switch. Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design Picky, picky, picky. GRIN Thanks for the information. Perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of If I want to exploit a zAAP processor with my own code, that code must be written in Java. Perhaps also with a note that my code might run IBM (or other vendor?) supplied code which might run on a zAAP (like XML is going to). But there is no way for be to LEGALLY get my COBOL code to run on a zAAP. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John snip Just as a curiousity, was is the cost to acquire a zAAP, zIIP, IFL, CFL, and a general CP? I mean the hardware cost, exclusive of any software costs. One person said, off line, that a zAAP cost them around US $50K. The MSRP for the zAAP, zIIP and IFL is US$95,000 for a z9BC and US$125,000 for a z9EC. How well can you negotiate? -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Rob, I'm surprised that your surprised :-) AFAIK, the JNI libraries that are *part* of the SDK are probably zAAP eligible. There might be exceptions ... I really don't know. Like I said, for a policy on what is and what is not, you would have to contact IBM. IBM does not disclose the technical bits about what makes a JNI library zAAP eligible, for obvious reasons. Kirk Wolf On 11/7/07, Schramm, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk, Yes to both. And a bit surprised by your answer. -Rob Schramm -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
A couple more points: 1. zAAP isn't only for Java any more. The z/OS XML System Services now exploit zAAP. The z/OS XML System Services are available for z/OS 1.7 and higher, and one major user of the z/OS XML System Services is DB2 9 for z/OS, assuming you use DB2's XML features. (This may be reason alone to move to DB2 9 quickly.) IBM has a couple statements of direction indicating there will be more XML exploitation of zAAP in the future, including the z/OS XML Toolkit. 2. The zAAP could influence decisions about how you implement certain functions, yes. But remember that even optimized Java has a longer path length than, say, optimized COBOL. A factor of 10 is not out of the ordinary. Thus I doubt it would be wise to perform non-trivial database joins in Java code versus letting DB2 do the work, for example. But things were a lot more interesting with respect to XML parsing. There are many ways to parse XML, including in Java code (e.g. the Xalan/Xerces libraries for Java). It turns out that XML parsing with Java is one of the most zAAP-eligible workloads. So there were some very weird cases where, for example, XML PARSE in COBOL consumed a lot more CPU (on CPs) than XML parsing in WebSphere (which loves the zAAP, longer path length and all). That probably explains in part why there's a lot of focus on moving other XML processing to zAAP and zIIP. - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Kirk, Yes to both. And a bit surprised by your answer. -Rob Schramm snip This e-mail transmission contains information that is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. If you receive this e-mail in error, please do not read, copy or disseminate it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please erase it from your computer system. Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: Chase, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 10:29 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Farley, Peter x23353 -Original Message- From: Kirk Wolf Snipped IBM does not disclose the technical bits about what makes a JNI library zAAP eligible, for obvious reasons. Um-m-m, color me dense today. Why would they do that? It's not obvious to me. Don't they *want* JNI library writers (and smart application groups at end-user companies) to actually *use* these interfaces? Why would they be hidden? The zAAP is just another CPU engine, and cannot, by itself, identify whether the instruction it's executing now originated from within a Java program or any other program. If IBM were to publish the eligibility determination interface, then anybody could switch the processing of any program to run on the zAAP. Doh. OK, their software revenues are the issue. I don't usually have to deal with that aspect of things, so it doesn't always occur to me. Thanks for lightening my density. Peter This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Harminc Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 10:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question snip Of course there are potential functional and performance problems with this approach, but there may well be financial incentive to do it if the zAAP price is kept artificially low (or if you prefer, the general CP price is kept artificially high). Tony H. Just as a curiousity, was is the cost to acquire a zAAP, zIIP, IFL, CFL, and a general CP? I mean the hardware cost, exclusive of any software costs. One person said, off line, that a zAAP cost them around US $50K. I guess it depends, but I am curious about any ball park figures. I'm still trying, off and on, to convince management that a zAAP and some Java applications (CICS and maybe even batch) might be cost effective. Unfortunately, it appears that management only understands ancient Egyptian for all the good I am accomplishing. I've also mentioned a zIIP if Oracle uses it (don't know) or if we every wake up and use DB2 instead of Oracle. Oracle on z/OS is a good lip service product around here, but we are not doing much of anything. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
In a message dated 11/7/2007 12:22:19 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think the GP engines generally are priced at around twice the price of the specialty engines. And add to the MSU cost of IBM and third party software ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
zAAP question
A zAAP can only run Java code. Does this include Java code which has been compiled by the jit? What about user supplied JNI routines? -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
My understanding is that all JAVA code (aka non-JNI) is eligible for ZAAP. -Rob Schramm snip This e-mail transmission contains information that is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. If you receive this e-mail in error, please do not read, copy or disseminate it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please erase it from your computer system. Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
McKown, John wrote: A zAAP can only run Java code. Does this include Java code which has been compiled by the jit? What about user supplied JNI routines? The JVM establishes zAAP redirect eligibility for the TCB whenever you execute Java byte code -- no matter where it comes from. When you begin to execute non-Java code, the zAAP eligibility is disabled. But, it's a lazy mechanism. So you might find yourself momentarily running zAAP-eligible Java code on a CP or non-Java code on a zAAP. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
There's an interesting side-question that's worth considering And that's whether an application that calls lots of short JNI methods on an extremely frequent basis suffers at all. It *MIGHT* affect the style of programming. I know of one case where the customer would be doing joins in the java code - rather inside DB2 (in the JDBC / SQLJ case). Somehow I would think that almost provably pessimal. :-) Anyone done any thinking on JNI and efficiency/effectiveness? NOTE: I don't work for the Washington Systems Center so, while an IBMer, I'm not teasing to hit anyone with an official line. Just thinking aloud. If you can call it thinking. :-) Hopefully this ISN'T too far off topic. Thanks, Martin Martin Packer Performance Consultant IBM United Kingdom Ltd +44-20-8832-5167 +44-7802-245-584 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Some JNI code is zAAP eligible as well. For example, the JNI libraries that ship as part of the SDK are mostly zAAP enabled. For example, the JNI code for JZOS (the version that ships with the SDK, NOT the alphaworks version) is zAAP enabled. On 11/6/07, Schramm, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that all JAVA code (aka non-JNI) is eligible for ZAAP. -Rob Schramm snip This e-mail transmission contains information that is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. If you receive this e-mail in error, please do not read, copy or disseminate it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please erase it from your computer system. Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Thanks for the correction Kirk. Always good to learn something I didn't know before. I am curious about the distinction though. Is there a guiding rule for JNI code to be eligible? -Rob Schramm This e-mail transmission contains information that is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. If you receive this e-mail in error, please do not read, copy or disseminate it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please erase it from your computer system. Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
Are you asking what technically makes a JNI library zAPP eligible, or what policy is used by IBM to decide whether to make a library zAAP eligible? Unfortunately, you would have to direct either question through official IBM channels. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies On 11/6/07, Schramm, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am curious about the distinction though. Is there a guiding rule for JNI code to be eligible? -Rob Schramm -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: zAAP question
The basic idea is that JNI signals a call to a non-Java environment such as an RDBMS. Therefore, in WebSphere Application Server the JVM switches back to general purpose processors when it encounters JNI code. However, according to Mr. Wolf's previous post, JZOS is an exception to the rule. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schramm, Rob Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 3:32 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: zAAP question Thanks for the correction Kirk. Always good to learn something I didn't know before. I am curious about the distinction though. Is there a guiding rule for JNI code to be eligible? -Rob Schramm This e-mail transmission contains information that is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. If you receive this e-mail in error, please do not read, copy or disseminate it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please erase it from your computer system. Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
