Re: SORTWK space usage

[kekronbekron]

Yes, IEFUSI is in use.
MEMLIT, about 2-6G.


- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Tuesday, July 4th, 2023 at 11:32 AM, Sri h Kolusu  wrote:


> > > From the few tests I've seen, it seems that DFSORT prefers hiperspaces 
> > > over memory objects or real memory.
> 
> MEMLIMIT and REGION are decent enough, size-wise, but DFSORT doesn't seem to 
> touch MO at all; goes directly to Hiperspace.
> 
> KB,
> 
> Do you have any IEFUSI exit in place? Also, what is the MEMLIMIT value in 
> SMFPRMxx member?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Kolusu
> 
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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Sri h Kolusu]

>> From the few tests I've seen, it seems that DFSORT prefers hiperspaces over 
>> memory objects or real memory.
MEMLIMIT and REGION are decent enough, size-wise, but DFSORT doesn't seem to 
touch MO at all; goes directly to Hiperspace.

KB,

Do you have any IEFUSI exit in place?  Also, what is the MEMLIMIT value in 
SMFPRMxx  member?


Thanks,
Kolusu

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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Brennan]

LOL

On 7/3/2023 8:30 PM, Eric Erickson wrote:

PLUGH!

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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Brennan]

No, community college in Southern California, almost free at the time.

On 7/3/2023 8:15 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Yes, about that year for me too, and at a university.  Not A&T State U in 
Greensboro, NC, by any chance?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* What fills the eye fills the heart.  -Celtic proverb
We begin by coveting what we see every day.  -Hannibal Lecter in "Silence of the 
Lambs"
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes.  -Psalms 101:3 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 21:08

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college instructor told 
us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that will get them 
interested."

--- On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.


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Re: Usage of strcasecmp gives implicit function warning even with

[Eric Erickson]

The #define of _POSIX_SOURCE fixed it. Darn documentation!

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Re: z/OSMF

[Eric Erickson]

PLUGH!

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

Yes, about that year for me too, and at a university.  Not A&T State U in 
Greensboro, NC, by any chance?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* What fills the eye fills the heart.  -Celtic proverb
We begin by coveting what we see every day.  -Hannibal Lecter in "Silence of 
the Lambs"
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes.  -Psalms 101:3 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 21:08

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college 
instructor told us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that will get 
them interested."

--- On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
> 36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out 
> the whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it 
> since then.

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Re: SORTWK space usage

[kekronbekron]

> DFSORT has the capability of using memory (real and auxiliary storage) and if 
> it runs out of it, it will then use disk workspace.

Hi Sri,

I understand you can't share the inner workings any more than what's documented 
in docs.
>From the few tests I've seen, it seems that DFSORT prefers hiperspaces over 
>memory objects or real memory.
MEMLIMIT and REGION are decent enough, size-wise, but DFSORT doesn't seem to 
touch MO at all; goes directly to Hiperspace.
Assume I have MOSIZE=MAX already..

- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, July 3rd, 2023 at 9:58 PM, Sri h Kolusu  wrote:


> > > I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 
> > > 14x2000 cylinders is never used. Is that right?
> 
> 
> Billy,
> 
> No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
> allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents. So if you 
> allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 
> + 15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders. Also note that the secondary 
> extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.
> 
> > > Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
> > > understand this?
> > > Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how 
> > > much DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in 
> > > memory at the time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort 
> > > determines what it needs.
> 
> 
> I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will allocate 
> the required workspace optimally rather than programmers calculating it. The 
> reason is you don't want to change the allocation every time there is an 
> increase/decrease in the number of records to be sorted.
> 
> Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.
> 
> The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the file. It 
> usually ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file to be sorted 
> depending on the sorting path that DFSORT chose.
> 
> Filesize = Number of records * Avg length of the record ( for Fixed length 
> RECFM=F or FB , it is the LRECL value, or RECFM=V or RECFM=VB is the average 
> length of the record)
> 
> However, that range is applicable ONLY when the entire file is being sorted 
> using Disk workspace. DFSORT has the capability of using memory (real and 
> auxiliary storage) and if it runs out of it, it will then use disk workspace.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Kolusu
> 
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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Brennan]

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college 
instructor told us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that 
will get them interested."


On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; "The axe glances 
harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; 
"There's nothing here it wants to eat (except possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked 
over another player's shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she already 
understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were both puzzled 
in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the corner and was instantly 
sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I ran across the thing that looked 
like a washing machine I figured I'd found the right tool for it; but I couldn't figure 
out how to make it work.  There was a coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my 
coins.  Meanwhile David had very easily understood how to make the "washing 
machine" work, but he couldn't figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we 
talked about it that we got the whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Billy Ashton]

Thanks so much to everyone who replied. I have gotten some positive 
responses internally here, and we are going to look at retooling some of 
our jobs after we do some testing to be sure we don't hurt anything. Who 
knows, we might even get some performance gains by letting the system 
take defaults.


Have a good evening, and a happy Independence Day to the US folks!

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --

From "Sri h Kolusu" 

To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 6:40:56 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


 how can I dump off the current SORT system options?


Billy,

Check this.

https://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-main@listserv.ua.edu/msg105660.html

Thanks,
Kolusu
DFSORT Development
IBM Corporation


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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Sri h Kolusu]

>> you mentioned getting better diagnostics from the SORTDIAG DD DUMMY. Are 
>> these diagnostics something I can interpret?

Billy,

Not really.  The additional messages would help IBM to diagnose the problem.   


Thanks,
Kolusu
DFSORT Development
IBM Corporation


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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Billy Ashton]

Sri Kolusu, you mentioned getting better diagnostics from the SORTDIAG 
DD DUMMY. Are these diagnostics something I can interpret? I know that 
many of the SORT messages that normally come out are coded values and 
not overly useful on their own without some interpretation (unless I 
missed some docu somewhere that helps interpret the SYSOUT messages).


Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --

From "Sri h Kolusu" 

To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 4:54:39 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10


Billy,

Based on your above description, you would need about 1.345 million tracks of 
sortwk space if the sorting is to be done entirely using Disk space.


//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))


It is highly unlikely that you have 10 SINGLE volumes that have 4000 cylinders 
of contiguous space.  So I would reduce the primary to reasonable amount 
depending on your shop disk space availability.


//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...

and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Well, you will NOT a JCL error or any DFSORT message as it would ONLY consider 
the FIRST volume. SORTWK space cannot span multiple volumes. Only the First 
volume is considered.

Ideally, I would code up Dynamic Allocation and let DFSORT figure out how much 
disk space it needs.

//SYSINDD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(,16),MOSIZE=MAX
  SORT FIELDS=(P,M,F,X)
/*

This would allocate 16 + 2(reserve based on DYNAPCT=10) = 18 sortwk datasets 
along with setting the MOSIZE to max so that you get the max of 64 bit memory 
objects.

If you know the esoteric name for disk pool space then you can specify on 
dynalloc parm.  For example if you diskspace has an esoteric SYSWRK

//SYSINDD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSWRK,16),MOSIZE=MAX
  SORT FIELDS=(P,M,F,X)
/*


 If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in the middle of the program (I am not 
sure if the big file is doing this, too or not), is using this DFSORT the best 
way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc SORTWK files, so I would not have to code 
SORTWK DD statements?


Well if a COBOL program is passing the records then DFSORT has no ability of 
Calculating the filesize and hence you would receive ICE118I message. 
Generally, DFSORT can automatically determine the input file size. However, in 
a few cases, such as when an E15 supplies all of the input records,
or when information about a tape data set is not available from a tape 
management system, DFSORT cannot determine an accurate file size.

I believe you are using Cobol SORT key word to sort the data. In such cases you 
have to code DFSPARM along with dynamic allocation and the estimated file size, 
so that DFSORT can determine the size of the file that is being sorted. So 
something like this. I assumed that the size of the file to be sorted has 500 
million (450 + 10% for future growth).

//DFSPARM  DD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(,16),MOSIZE=MAX, FILSZ=E5
/*


Also make sure that your JCL has  //SORTDIAG DD DUMMY   Which will produce more 
diagnostic messages


Thanks,
Kolusu
DFSORT Development
IBM Corporation

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 11:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million records 
of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying SORTWK DD 
statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that we have 
in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
to
//SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 150 
* 1000) secondary

While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
From "Farley, Peter" 
<031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space and 
memory utilization than any

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Sri h Kolusu]

>> how can I dump off the current SORT system options? 

Billy,

Check this.

https://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-main@listserv.ua.edu/msg105660.html

Thanks,
Kolusu
DFSORT Development
IBM Corporation


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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Billy Ashton]

Thanks again, Peter, and all. One last question - how can I dump off the 
current SORT system options? For example, Peter, you said, "my shop 
defaults DYNALLOC to 59" - how can I see what our default setting has?


Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --

From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>

To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 5:27:52 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


Billy,

If it is an internal sort then supply the FILSZ=Ennn parameter in 
DFSPARM (or $ORTPARM for Syncsort) along with the DYNALLOC parameter.

My shop defaults DYNALLOC to 59 and allows production jobs to use the max of 
255 for particularly large sorts.  Some of ours are, like yours, multiple 
hundreds of millions of relatively short records, and DYNALLOC is used all the 
time for those, no JCL SORTWK at all.

My team has a standing policy to:

(1) remove SORTWKnn from JCL and PROC's that have them when they are next 
updated
(2) add the appropriate PARM JCL if not already there
(3) add/update PARM control card(s): DYNALLOC larger than default if needed by 
testing on production volume files; for internal SORT's also add FILSZ=Ennn at 
about 1.2 times current volume unless there is known future growth anticipated
(4) enlarge too-small REGION parameters to at least 512M for large sort steps 
(internal or external) and higher if needed up to the installation-controlled 
max

Let SORT do the work for you, there is really no need to do that work yourself.

HTH

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 3:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage

Doug, this raises a good point. If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in the 
middle of the program (I am not sure if the big file is doing this, too or 
not), is using this DFSPARM the best way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc SORTWK 
files, so I would not have to code SORTWK DD statements?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
From "Doug" 
To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 2:45:28 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


Try adding this instead off sorted dd.
//DFSPARM  DD   *
   OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSDA,15),DYNSPC=768
/*

You can add other options too.
Regards, Doug

On Jul 3, 2023, at 14:34, Michael Oujesky  wrote:

Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how SORT is 
provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT to make the 
determination should be fine.  But when the incoming records are provided SORT 
one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, etc,) then nudging SORT's SORTWK 
decision by providing some SORTWK areas would probably be a better approach.

At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:


  Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

  However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million 
records of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying 
SORTWK DD statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that 
we have in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

  If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
  450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB  so maybe SORTWK01 -
 SORTWK10
  //SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
  to
  //SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

  and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary +
 (up to 150 * 1000) secondary

  While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs
 with
  //SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
  and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

  Thank you and best regards,
  Billy Ashton


  -- Original Message --
  From "Farley, Peter"
 <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
  To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
  Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
  Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


  I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation 
NOT to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors 
(IBM and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK 
space and memory utilization than any human could hope to do.

  I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
don't be afraid to use all you've got available to shorten your SORT times.

  My basic advice is don't try to second-guess th

Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

The version that I saw was table driven; it was half a century ago, but I 
vaguel recall a response of "You've got to be kidding", but I may be confusing 
that with the response to "throw troll".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 5:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

I once spent a pleasurable few days hacking (or rather trying to hack)
Colossal Cave's "magic mode".  The DEC-10 machine at the college I worked at
back then had very little security; I could  a program and then
examine the machine code at leisure.  I got quite a few steps into the
rather lengthy process of establishing myself as a "wizard", but didn't
finish before I ended up doing something else - taking another job somewhere
else, I think it was, but I don't remember for sure.

And yes, experimenting with various strategies in a complicated game is
often more fun than just playing it.  Once I discovered the application of
statistics to "games theory", I began to think it'd be fun to work on that.
But that was before I became a coder, which still keeps me interested.

Out of curiosity, did the game know what to do with "eat bird"?  I guess if
they were doing their job, the writers needed to match every verb with every
object and invent a result, just to satisfy people like you.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* When the omniscient God asks you a question, it is not because He is
seeking information.  -from "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 17:53

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and
will run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was
when I wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat
bird" or "throw troll".

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

I once spent a pleasurable few days hacking (or rather trying to hack)
Colossal Cave's "magic mode".  The DEC-10 machine at the college I worked at
back then had very little security; I could  a program and then
examine the machine code at leisure.  I got quite a few steps into the
rather lengthy process of establishing myself as a "wizard", but didn't
finish before I ended up doing something else - taking another job somewhere
else, I think it was, but I don't remember for sure.

And yes, experimenting with various strategies in a complicated game is
often more fun than just playing it.  Once I discovered the application of
statistics to "games theory", I began to think it'd be fun to work on that.
But that was before I became a coder, which still keeps me interested.

Out of curiosity, did the game know what to do with "eat bird"?  I guess if
they were doing their job, the writers needed to match every verb with every
object and invent a result, just to satisfy people like you.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* When the omniscient God asks you a question, it is not because He is
seeking information.  -from "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 17:53

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and
will run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was
when I wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat
bird" or "throw troll".

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and will 
run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was when I 
wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat bird" or 
"throw troll".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 3:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; 
"The axe glances harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  
Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; "There's nothing here it wants to eat (except 
possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked over another player's 
shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she 
already understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were 
both puzzled in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the 
corner and was instantly sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I 
ran across the thing that looked like a washing machine I figured I'd found the 
right tool for it; but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.  There was a 
coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my coins.  Meanwhile David had very 
easily understood how to make the "washing machine" work, but he couldn't 
figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we talked about it that we got the 
whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Farley, Peter]

Billy,

If it is an internal sort then supply the FILSZ=Ennn parameter in 
DFSPARM (or $ORTPARM for Syncsort) along with the DYNALLOC parameter.

My shop defaults DYNALLOC to 59 and allows production jobs to use the max of 
255 for particularly large sorts.  Some of ours are, like yours, multiple 
hundreds of millions of relatively short records, and DYNALLOC is used all the 
time for those, no JCL SORTWK at all.

My team has a standing policy to:

(1) remove SORTWKnn from JCL and PROC's that have them when they are next 
updated
(2) add the appropriate PARM JCL if not already there
(3) add/update PARM control card(s): DYNALLOC larger than default if needed by 
testing on production volume files; for internal SORT's also add FILSZ=Ennn at 
about 1.2 times current volume unless there is known future growth anticipated
(4) enlarge too-small REGION parameters to at least 512M for large sort steps 
(internal or external) and higher if needed up to the installation-controlled 
max

Let SORT do the work for you, there is really no need to do that work yourself.

HTH

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 3:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage

Doug, this raises a good point. If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in the 
middle of the program (I am not sure if the big file is doing this, too or 
not), is using this DFSPARM the best way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc SORTWK 
files, so I would not have to code SORTWK DD statements?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
From "Doug" 
To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 2:45:28 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage

>Try adding this instead off sorted dd.
>//DFSPARM  DD   *
>   OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSDA,15),DYNSPC=768
>/*
>
>You can add other options too.
>Regards, Doug
>
>On Jul 3, 2023, at 14:34, Michael Oujesky  wrote:
>
>Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how SORT is 
>provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT to make the 
>determination should be fine.  But when the incoming records are provided SORT 
>one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, etc,) then nudging SORT's SORTWK 
>decision by providing some SORTWK areas would probably be a better approach.
>
>At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:
>
>>  Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.
>>
>>  However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million 
>> records of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without 
>> specifying SORTWK DD statements. Are there special configuration options I 
>> can verify that we have in place to help my comfort level that I could 
>> eliminate SORTWK DD?
>>
>>  If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on 
>> the discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
>>  450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB  so maybe SORTWK01 - 
>> SORTWK10
>>  //SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
>>  to
>>  //SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
>>
>>  and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + 
>> (up to 150 * 1000) secondary
>>
>>  While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs 
>> with
>>  //SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
>>  and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the 
>> first volume anyway?
>>
>>  Thank you and best regards,
>>  Billy Ashton
>>
>>
>>  -- Original Message --
>>  From "Farley, Peter" 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
>>  Subject Re: SORTWK space usage
>>
>>>  I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation 
>>> NOT to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors 
>>> (IBM and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK 
>>> space and memory utilization than any human could hope to do.
>>>
>>>  I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled 
>>> SORT steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation 
>>> allows for production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will 
>>> figure out how much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to 
>>> use in the current WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as 
>>> much of it as they can to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  
>>> Memory is (relatively) cheap, don't be afraid to use all you've got 
>>> available to shorten your SORT times.
>>>
>>>  My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent 
>>> programs - they each have more than half a century of practice and 
>>> experience that none of us can match, even those of us who have been around 
>>> that long.
>>>
>>>  Peter
>>>
>>>  -Original Message-
>>>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>>> Beh

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Sri h Kolusu]

Sorry.  There was an extra space before the FILSZ parm.  Please remove that.  
Here is the updated DFSPARM statement.


//DFSPARM  DD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(,16),MOSIZE=MAX,FILSZ=E5
/*


Thanks,
Kolusu
DFSORT Development
IBM Corporation

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Sri 
h Kolusu
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

>>450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10

Billy,

Based on your above description, you would need about 1.345 million tracks of 
sortwk space if the sorting is to be done entirely using Disk space.

>>//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

It is highly unlikely that you have 10 SINGLE volumes that have 4000 cylinders 
of contiguous space.  So I would reduce the primary to reasonable amount 
depending on your shop disk space availability.

>>//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Well, you will NOT a JCL error or any DFSORT message as it would ONLY consider 
the FIRST volume. SORTWK space cannot span multiple volumes. Only the First 
volume is considered.

Ideally, I would code up Dynamic Allocation and let DFSORT figure out how much 
disk space it needs.

//SYSINDD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(,16),MOSIZE=MAX
  SORT FIELDS=(P,M,F,X)
/*

This would allocate 16 + 2(reserve based on DYNAPCT=10) = 18 sortwk datasets 
along with setting the MOSIZE to max so that you get the max of 64 bit memory 
objects.

If you know the esoteric name for disk pool space then you can specify on 
dynalloc parm.  For example if you diskspace has an esoteric SYSWRK

//SYSINDD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSWRK,16),MOSIZE=MAX
  SORT FIELDS=(P,M,F,X)
/*

>> If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in the middle of the program (I am 
>> not sure if the big file is doing this, too or not), is using this DFSORT 
>> the best way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc SORTWK files, so I would not 
>> have to code SORTWK DD statements?

Well if a COBOL program is passing the records then DFSORT has no ability of 
Calculating the filesize and hence you would receive ICE118I message. 
Generally, DFSORT can automatically determine the input file size. However, in 
a few cases, such as when an E15 supplies all of the input records, or when 
information about a tape data set is not available from a tape management 
system, DFSORT cannot determine an accurate file size.

I believe you are using Cobol SORT key word to sort the data. In such cases you 
have to code DFSPARM along with dynamic allocation and the estimated file size, 
so that DFSORT can determine the size of the file that is being sorted. So 
something like this. I assumed that the size of the file to be sorted has 500 
million (450 + 10% for future growth).

//DFSPARM  DD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(,16),MOSIZE=MAX, FILSZ=E5
/*


Also make sure that your JCL has  //SORTDIAG DD DUMMY   Which will produce more 
diagnostic messages


Thanks,
Kolusu
DFSORT Development
IBM Corporation

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of Billy 
Ashton
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 11:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million records 
of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying SORTWK DD 
statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that we have 
in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
to
//SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 150 
* 1000) secondary

While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
From "Farley, Peter" 
<031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>>
To 
IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu>
Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage

>I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
>to use hard-coded SORTWK's in

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Sri h Kolusu]

>>450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10

Billy,

Based on your above description, you would need about 1.345 million tracks of 
sortwk space if the sorting is to be done entirely using Disk space.

>>//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

It is highly unlikely that you have 10 SINGLE volumes that have 4000 cylinders 
of contiguous space.  So I would reduce the primary to reasonable amount 
depending on your shop disk space availability.

>>//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Well, you will NOT a JCL error or any DFSORT message as it would ONLY consider 
the FIRST volume. SORTWK space cannot span multiple volumes. Only the First 
volume is considered.

Ideally, I would code up Dynamic Allocation and let DFSORT figure out how much 
disk space it needs.

//SYSINDD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(,16),MOSIZE=MAX
  SORT FIELDS=(P,M,F,X)
/*

This would allocate 16 + 2(reserve based on DYNAPCT=10) = 18 sortwk datasets 
along with setting the MOSIZE to max so that you get the max of 64 bit memory 
objects.

If you know the esoteric name for disk pool space then you can specify on 
dynalloc parm.  For example if you diskspace has an esoteric SYSWRK

//SYSINDD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSWRK,16),MOSIZE=MAX
  SORT FIELDS=(P,M,F,X)
/*

>> If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in the middle of the program (I am 
>> not sure if the big file is doing this, too or not), is using this DFSORT 
>> the best way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc SORTWK files, so I would not 
>> have to code SORTWK DD statements?

Well if a COBOL program is passing the records then DFSORT has no ability of 
Calculating the filesize and hence you would receive ICE118I message. 
Generally, DFSORT can automatically determine the input file size. However, in 
a few cases, such as when an E15 supplies all of the input records,
or when information about a tape data set is not available from a tape 
management system, DFSORT cannot determine an accurate file size.

I believe you are using Cobol SORT key word to sort the data. In such cases you 
have to code DFSPARM along with dynamic allocation and the estimated file size, 
so that DFSORT can determine the size of the file that is being sorted. So 
something like this. I assumed that the size of the file to be sorted has 500 
million (450 + 10% for future growth).

//DFSPARM  DD *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(,16),MOSIZE=MAX, FILSZ=E5
/*


Also make sure that your JCL has  //SORTDIAG DD DUMMY   Which will produce more 
diagnostic messages


Thanks,
Kolusu
DFSORT Development
IBM Corporation

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 11:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million records 
of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying SORTWK DD 
statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that we have 
in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
to
//SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 150 
* 1000) secondary

While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
From "Farley, Peter" 
<031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage

>I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
>to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
>and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space 
>and memory utilization than any human could hope to do.
>
>I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
>steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
>production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
>much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
>WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
>to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
>don't be afraid to 

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Gibney, Dave]

There may be some odd edge case, but it is my opinion control statements, 
parameters, are always preferable to hardcoded JCL SORTWK. If only for the sake 
of conciseness.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Billy Ashton
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:14 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> It is on disk, Doug. Thanks for the caveat!
> 
> Thank you and best regards,
> Billy Ashton
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From "Doug Shupe"  To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Date 7/3/2023 4:07:05 PM Subject Re: SORTWK space usage
> 
> >Billy,
> >Am only trying to present a possible option. The number of volumes and
> available space is shop dependent. Best to grab a sort manual and go through
> the possible option then test.
> >The expert, Sri Kolusu many have thoughts on best practice.
> >Is the input disk or tape ? It makes a difference..
> >Doug
> >
> >Stay Safe
> >
> >>  On Jul 3, 2023, at 15:48, Billy Ashton  wrote:
> >>
> >>  Doug, this raises a good point. If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in
> the middle of the program (I am not sure if the big file is doing this, too or
> not), is using this DFSPARM the best way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc
> SORTWK files, so I would not have to code SORTWK DD statements?
> >>
> >>  Thank you and best regards,
> >>  Billy Ashton
> >>
> >>
> >>  -- Original Message --
> >>  From "Doug" 
> >>  To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >>  Date 7/3/2023 2:45:28 PM
> >>  Subject Re: SORTWK space usage
> >>
> >>>  Try adding this instead off sorted dd.
> >>>  //DFSPARM  DD   *
> >>>   OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSDA,15),DYNSPC=768
> >>>  /*
> >>>
> >>>  You can add other options too.
> >>>  Regards, Doug
> >>>
>   On Jul 3, 2023, at 14:34, Michael Oujesky 
> wrote:
> 
>   Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how
> SORT is provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT to make
> the determination should be fine.  But when the incoming records are
> provided SORT one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, etc,) then nudging
> SORT's SORTWK decision by providing some SORTWK areas would probably be
> a better approach.
> 
>   At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:
> 
>   Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.
> 
>   However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million
> records of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying
> SORTWK DD statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify
> that we have in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK
> DD?
> 
>   If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based
> on the discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
>   450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB  so maybe SORTWK01 -
>  SORTWK10
>   //SORTWK01  DD
> UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
>   to
>   //SORTWK10  DD
> UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
> 
>   and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary
>  + (up to 150 * 1000) secondary
> 
>   While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some
>  jobs with
>   //SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
>   and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the 
>  first
> volume anyway?
> 
>   Thank you and best regards,
>   Billy Ashton
> 
> 
>   -- Original Message --
>   From "Farley, Peter"
>  <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>   To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>   Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
>   Subject Re: SORTWK space usage
> 
> >  I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG
> recommendation NOT to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the
> major SORT vendors (IBM and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating
> necessary SORTWK space and memory utilization than any human could hope
> to do.
> >
> >  I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-
> controlled SORT steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your
> installation allows for production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT
> programs will figure out how much of that memory to use, whether and how
> much of it to use in the current WLM environment, and will make VERY
> effective use of as much of it as they can to cut down on SORT execution and
> elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, don't be afraid to use all you've
> got available to shorten your SORT times.
> >
> >  My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent
> programs - they each have more than half a century of practice and experience
> that none of us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.
> >
> >  Peter
> >
> >  -Original Message-
> >  From: IBM Mainframe Discuss

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Billy Ashton]

It is on disk, Doug. Thanks for the caveat!

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --

From "Doug Shupe" 

To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 4:07:05 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


Billy,
Am only trying to present a possible option. The number of volumes and 
available space is shop dependent. Best to grab a sort manual and go through 
the possible option then test.
The expert, Sri Kolusu many have thoughts on best practice.
Is the input disk or tape ? It makes a difference..
Doug

Stay Safe


 On Jul 3, 2023, at 15:48, Billy Ashton  wrote:

 Doug, this raises a good point. If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in the 
middle of the program (I am not sure if the big file is doing this, too or 
not), is using this DFSPARM the best way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc SORTWK 
files, so I would not have to code SORTWK DD statements?

 Thank you and best regards,
 Billy Ashton


 -- Original Message --
 From "Doug" 
 To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
 Date 7/3/2023 2:45:28 PM
 Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


 Try adding this instead off sorted dd.
 //DFSPARM  DD   *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSDA,15),DYNSPC=768
 /*

 You can add other options too.
 Regards, Doug


 On Jul 3, 2023, at 14:34, Michael Oujesky  wrote:

 Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how SORT is 
provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT to make the 
determination should be fine.  But when the incoming records are provided SORT 
one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, etc,) then nudging SORT's SORTWK 
decision by providing some SORTWK areas would probably be a better approach.

 At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:

 Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

 However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million records 
of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying SORTWK DD 
statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that we have 
in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

 If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
 450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB
 so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
 //SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
 to
 //SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

 and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 150 
* 1000) secondary

 While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
 //SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
 and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

 Thank you and best regards,
 Billy Ashton


 -- Original Message --
 From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
 To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
 Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
 Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


 I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space and 
memory utilization than any human could hope to do.

 I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
don't be afraid to use all you've got available to shorten your SORT times.

 My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent programs - 
they each have more than half a century of practice and experience that none of 
us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.

 Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Sri h Kolusu
 Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage


 I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
cylinders is never used. Is that right?


 Billy,

 No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if you 
allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 + 
15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary 
extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.


 Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
understand this?
 Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how much 
DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in memory at the 
time, but want to get a 

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Doug Shupe]

Billy,
Am only trying to present a possible option. The number of volumes and 
available space is shop dependent. Best to grab a sort manual and go through 
the possible option then test.
The expert, Sri Kolusu many have thoughts on best practice. 
Is the input disk or tape ? It makes a difference..
Doug

Stay Safe

> On Jul 3, 2023, at 15:48, Billy Ashton  wrote:
> 
> Doug, this raises a good point. If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT in 
> the middle of the program (I am not sure if the big file is doing this, too 
> or not), is using this DFSPARM the best way to force the use of 15 Dynalloc 
> SORTWK files, so I would not have to code SORTWK DD statements?
> 
> Thank you and best regards,
> Billy Ashton
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From "Doug" 
> To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Date 7/3/2023 2:45:28 PM
> Subject Re: SORTWK space usage
> 
>> Try adding this instead off sorted dd.
>> //DFSPARM  DD   *
>>  OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSDA,15),DYNSPC=768
>> /*
>> 
>> You can add other options too.
>> Regards, Doug
>> 
>>> On Jul 3, 2023, at 14:34, Michael Oujesky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how SORT 
>>> is provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT to make the 
>>> determination should be fine.  But when the incoming records are provided 
>>> SORT one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, etc,) then nudging SORT's 
>>> SORTWK decision by providing some SORTWK areas would probably be a better 
>>> approach.
>>> 
>>> At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.
>>> 
>>> However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million 
>>> records of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without 
>>> specifying SORTWK DD statements. Are there special configuration options I 
>>> can verify that we have in place to help my comfort level that I could 
>>> eliminate SORTWK DD?
>>> 
>>> If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on 
>>> the discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
>>> 450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB
>>> so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
>>> //SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
>>> to
>>> //SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
>>> 
>>> and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 
>>> 150 * 1000) secondary
>>> 
>>> While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
>>> //SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
>>> and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the 
>>> first volume anyway?
>>> 
>>> Thank you and best regards,
>>> Billy Ashton
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>> To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>> Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
>>> Subject Re: SORTWK space usage
>>> 
 I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation 
 NOT to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT 
 vendors (IBM and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating 
 necessary SORTWK space and memory utilization than any human could hope to 
 do.
 
 I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled 
 SORT steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation 
 allows for production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will 
 figure out how much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to 
 use in the current WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as 
 much of it as they can to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  
 Memory is (relatively) cheap, don't be afraid to use all you've got 
 available to shorten your SORT times.
 
 My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent 
 programs - they each have more than half a century of practice and 
 experience that none of us can match, even those of us who have been 
 around that long.
 
 Peter
 
 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf 
 Of Sri h Kolusu
 Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage
 
>> I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 
>> 14x2000 cylinders is never used. Is that right?
 
 Billy,
 
 No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
 allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if 
 you allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would 
 use 5000 + 15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the 
 secondary extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.
 
>> Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
>> understand this?

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Billy Ashton]

Doug, this raises a good point. If I have a COBOL program doing a SORT 
in the middle of the program (I am not sure if the big file is doing 
this, too or not), is using this DFSPARM the best way to force the use 
of 15 Dynalloc SORTWK files, so I would not have to code SORTWK DD 
statements?


Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --

From "Doug" 

To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 2:45:28 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


Try adding this instead off sorted dd.
//DFSPARM  DD   *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSDA,15),DYNSPC=768
/*

You can add other options too.
Regards, Doug

On Jul 3, 2023, at 14:34, Michael Oujesky  wrote:

Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how SORT is 
provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT to make the 
determination should be fine.  But when the incoming records are provided SORT 
one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, etc,) then nudging SORT's SORTWK 
decision by providing some SORTWK areas would probably be a better approach.

At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:


 Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

 However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million records 
of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying SORTWK DD 
statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that we have 
in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

 If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
 450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB
 so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
 //SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
 to
 //SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

 and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 150 
* 1000) secondary

 While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
 //SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
 and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

 Thank you and best regards,
 Billy Ashton


 -- Original Message --
 From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
 To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
 Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
 Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


 I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space and 
memory utilization than any human could hope to do.

 I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
don't be afraid to use all you've got available to shorten your SORT times.

 My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent programs - 
they each have more than half a century of practice and experience that none of 
us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.

 Peter

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Sri h Kolusu
 Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage


 I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
cylinders is never used. Is that right?


 Billy,

 No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if you 
allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 + 
15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary 
extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.


 Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
understand this?
 Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how much 
DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in memory at the 
time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort determines what it needs.


 I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will allocate 
the required workspace optimally rather than programmers calculating it.  The 
reason is you don't want to change the allocation every time there is an 
increase/decrease in the number of records to be sorted.

 Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.

 The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the file. It 
usually ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file to be sorted depending 
on the sorting path that DFSORT chose.

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

[Steve Beaver]

Secondary allocation can be requested for work data sets. For the Peerage and 
Vale sorting techniques only, secondary allocation is limited to the first 12 
work data sets;


No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he 
desires for himself. 




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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 2:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

Billy,

To answer one of your questions specifically - 

While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

You are correct, this will only use the first volume.  Nothing will get 
allocated on subsequent volumes.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million records 
of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying SORTWK DD 
statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that we have 
in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
to
//SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 150 
* 1000) secondary

While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
>From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage

>I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
>to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
>and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space 
>and memory utilization than any human could hope to do.
>
>I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
>steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
>production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
>much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
>WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
>to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
>don't be afraid to use all you've got available to shorten your SORT times.
>
>My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent programs - 
>they each have more than half a century of practice and experience that none 
>of us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.
>
>Peter
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>Behalf Of Sri h Kolusu
>Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage
>
>>>I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
>>>cylinders is never used. Is that right?
>
>Billy,
>
>No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
>allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if you 
>allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 
>+ 15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary 
>extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.
>
>>>Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
>>>understand this?
>>>Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how 
>>>much DASD sortwork would be used?

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

[Pommier, Rex]

Billy,

To answer one of your questions specifically - 

While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

You are correct, this will only use the first volume.  Nothing will get 
allocated on subsequent volumes.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: SORTWK space usage

Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million records 
of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying SORTWK DD 
statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify that we have 
in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?

If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
to
//SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 150 
* 1000) secondary

While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
volume anyway?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage

>I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
>to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
>and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space 
>and memory utilization than any human could hope to do.
>
>I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
>steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
>production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
>much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
>WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
>to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
>don't be afraid to use all you've got available to shorten your SORT times.
>
>My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent programs - 
>they each have more than half a century of practice and experience that none 
>of us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.
>
>Peter
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>Behalf Of Sri h Kolusu
>Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage
>
>>>I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
>>>cylinders is never used. Is that right?
>
>Billy,
>
>No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
>allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if you 
>allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 
>+ 15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary 
>extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.
>
>>>Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
>>>understand this?
>>>Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how 
>>>much DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in memory 
>>>at the time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort determines what it 
>>>needs.
>
>I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will allocate 
>the required workspace optimally rather than programmers calculating it.  The 
>reason is you don't want to change the allocation every time there is an 
>increase/decrease in the number of records to be sorted.
>
>Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.
>
>The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the file. It 
>usually ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file to be sorted 
>depending on the sorting path that DFSORT chose.
>
>Filesize = Number of records * Avg length of the record ( for Fixed 
>length RECFM=F or FB , it is the LRECL value, or RECFM=V or RECFM=VB is 
>the average length of the record)
>
>However, that range is applicable ONLY when the entire file is being sorted 
>using Disk workspace. DFSORT has the capability of using memory (real and 
>auxiliary storage) and if it runs out of it, it will then use disk workspace.
>
>
>Thanks,
>Kolusu
>--
>
>This message and any attachments are intended only for t

Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; 
"The axe glances harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  
Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; "There's nothing here it wants to eat (except 
possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked over another player's 
shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she 
already understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were 
both puzzled in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the 
corner and was instantly sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I 
ran across the thing that looked like a washing machine I figured I'd found the 
right tool for it; but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.  There was a 
coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my coins.  Meanwhile David had very 
easily understood how to make the "washing machine" work, but he couldn't 
figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we talked about it that we got the 
whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Broadcom SCRT

[Billy Ashton]

Broadcom was having some problems with the customer website earlier 
today, but I think they are back up and running now.


Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --

From "rpinion865" <042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>

To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 9:49:55 AM
Subject Broadcom SCRT


Anyone else having issues logging onto Broadcom SCRT website?

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Doug]

Try adding this instead off sorted dd.
//DFSPARM  DD   *
  OPTION DYNALLOC=(SYSDA,15),DYNSPC=768
/*

You can add other options too.
Regards, Doug 

On Jul 3, 2023, at 14:34, Michael Oujesky  wrote:

Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how SORT is 
provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT to make the 
determination should be fine.  But when the incoming records are provided SORT 
one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, etc,) then nudging SORT's SORTWK 
decision by providing some SORTWK areas would probably be a better approach.

At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:

> Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.
> 
> However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million 
> records of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without specifying 
> SORTWK DD statements. Are there special configuration options I can verify 
> that we have in place to help my comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK 
> DD?
> 
> If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based on the 
> discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?
> 450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB
> so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
> //SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
> to
> //SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
> 
> and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up to 
> 150 * 1000) secondary
> 
> While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
> //SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
> and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the first 
> volume anyway?
> 
> Thank you and best regards,
> Billy Ashton
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
> Subject Re: SORTWK space usage
> 
>> I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation 
>> NOT to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors 
>> (IBM and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK 
>> space and memory utilization than any human could hope to do.
>> 
>> I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
>> steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
>> production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out 
>> how much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the 
>> current WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it 
>> as they can to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is 
>> (relatively) cheap, don't be afraid to use all you've got available to 
>> shorten your SORT times.
>> 
>> My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent programs 
>> - they each have more than half a century of practice and experience that 
>> none of us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Sri h Kolusu
>> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage
>> 
 I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
 cylinders is never used. Is that right?
>> 
>> Billy,
>> 
>> No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
>> allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if 
>> you allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 
>> 5000 + 15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the 
>> secondary extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.
>> 
 Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
 understand this?
 Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how 
 much DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in memory 
 at the time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort determines what 
 it needs.
>> 
>> I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will allocate 
>> the required workspace optimally rather than programmers calculating it.  
>> The reason is you don't want to change the allocation every time there is an 
>> increase/decrease in the number of records to be sorted.
>> 
>> Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.
>> 
>> The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the file. It 
>> usually ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file to be sorted 
>> depending on the sorting path that DFSORT chose.
>> 
>> Filesize = Number of records * Avg length of the record ( for Fixed length 
>> RECFM=F or FB , it is the LRECL value, or RECFM=V or RECFM=VB is the average 
>> length of the record)
>> 
>> However, that range is applicable ONLY when the entire file is be

Re: z/OSMF

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Michael Oujesky]

Just a warning, but the SORTWK specification decision depends on how 
SORT is provided the input data.  If via SORTIN, then allowing SORT 
to make the determination should be fine.  But when the incoming 
records are provided SORT one records at a time (piping, E15 exit, 
etc,) then nudging SORT's SORTWK decision by providing some SORTWK 
areas would probably be a better approach.


At 01:13 PM 7/3/2023, Billy Ashton wrote:


Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 
million records of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT 
without specifying SORTWK DD statements. Are there special 
configuration options I can verify that we have in place to help my 
comfort level that I could eliminate SORTWK DD?


If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, 
based on the discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?

450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB
so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
to
//SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + 
(up to 150 * 1000) secondary


While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get 
the first volume anyway?


Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --
From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage

I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG 
recommendation NOT to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of 
the major SORT vendors (IBM and Syncsort) do a far, far better job 
of estimating necessary SORTWK space and memory utilization than 
any human could hope to do.


I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and 
program-controlled SORT steps as much memory in the REGION 
parameter as your installation allows for production and test 
jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how much of 
that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the 
current WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as 
much of it as they can to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed 
time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, don't be afraid to use all 
you've got available to shorten your SORT times.


My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent 
programs - they each have more than half a century of practice and 
experience that none of us can match, even those of us who have 
been around that long.


Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
Behalf Of Sri h Kolusu

Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage

I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the 
other 14x2000 cylinders is never used. Is that right?


Billy,

No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary 
space allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 
extents.  So if you allocated 1 sortwk dataset with 
(CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 + 15* 2000 = 5000 + 
3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary extents 
will only come into picture ONLY when needed.


Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers 
so they understand this?
Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to 
calculate how much DASD sortwork would be used? I know this 
depends on what is in memory at the time, but want to get a 
better handle on how Sort determines what it needs.


I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will 
allocate the required workspace optimally rather than programmers 
calculating it.  The reason is you don't want to change the 
allocation every time there is an increase/decrease in the number 
of records to be sorted.


Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.

The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the 
file. It usually ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file 
to be sorted depending on the sorting path that DFSORT chose.


Filesize = Number of records * Avg length of the record ( for Fixed 
length RECFM=F or FB , it is the LRECL value, or RECFM=V or 
RECFM=VB is the average length of the record)


However, that range is applicable ONLY when the entire file is 
being sorted using Disk workspace. DFSORT has the capability of 
using memory (real and auxiliary storage) and if it runs out of it, 
it will then use disk workspace.



Thanks,
Kolusu
--

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recipient or an authorized representative of the intended 
r

Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 2:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

LOL!  Did you know Colossal Cave is now available on Android?  I got myself a 
copy, intending to map it all out, but so far I'm still exploring the forest on 
the surface.  Haven't played it in decades.  Maybe I should introduce it to my 
grandchildren.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ERRATA:  For "errata" read "erratum". */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:01

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

LOL!  Did you know Colossal Cave is now available on Android?  I got myself a 
copy, intending to map it all out, but so far I'm still exploring the forest on 
the surface.  Haven't played it in decades.  Maybe I should introduce it to my 
grandchildren.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ERRATA:  For "errata" read "erratum". */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:01

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: SORTWK space usage

[Billy Ashton]

Thanks everyone - these are good recommendations.

However, the guy who came to me first has a job that sorts 450 million 
records of 110 bytes, and I can't see how I could run SORT without 
specifying SORTWK DD statements. Are there special configuration options 
I can verify that we have in place to help my comfort level that I could 
eliminate SORTWK DD?


If the programming team are not convinced, does this look right, based 
on the discussion - and based on a 100% Disk sort, which is not likely?

450mill * 110 * 1.5 = 7425000 = 69GB
so maybe SORTWK01 - SORTWK10
//SORTWK01  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))
to
//SORTWK10  DD  UNIT=WORK,DSNTYPE=LARGE,SPACE=(CYL,(4000,1000))

and this will give me 4000 + (15*1000) on each, or 4c primary + (up 
to 150 * 1000) secondary


While we have been talking here, I have looked, and found some jobs with
//SORTWK01 DD UNIT=(WORK,5)...
and this will not work, is that right, Sri Kolusu? I would only get the 
first volume anyway?


Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton


-- Original Message --

From "Farley, Peter" <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>

To IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date 7/3/2023 12:44:43 PM
Subject Re: SORTWK space usage


I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space and 
memory utilization than any human could hope to do.

I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
don't be afraid to use all you've got available to shorten your SORT times.

My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent programs - 
they each have more than half a century of practice and experience that none of 
us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Sri 
h Kolusu
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage


I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
cylinders is never used. Is that right?


Billy,

No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if you 
allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 + 
15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary 
extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.


Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
understand this?
Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how much 
DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in memory at the 
time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort determines what it needs.


I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will allocate 
the required workspace optimally rather than programmers calculating it.  The 
reason is you don't want to change the allocation every time there is an 
increase/decrease in the number of records to be sorted.

Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.

The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the file. It usually 
ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file to be sorted depending on the 
sorting path that DFSORT chose.

Filesize = Number of records * Avg length of the record ( for Fixed length 
RECFM=F or FB , it is the LRECL value, or RECFM=V or RECFM=VB is the average 
length of the record)

However, that range is applicable ONLY when the entire file is being sorted 
using Disk workspace. DFSORT has the capability of using memory (real and 
auxiliary storage) and if it runs out of it, it will then use disk workspace.


Thanks,
Kolusu
--

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the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:40 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
> later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
> liked.
>
> As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
> longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
> mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
> comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I 
> now keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for 
> reading my monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for 
> reading up close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.
>
> Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
> the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
> the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact 
> that I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten 
> about them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my 
> field of vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a 
> sense.  Maybe if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real 
> bifocals.  (Somebody else probably would have, though.)
>
> But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
> eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder 
> then why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
> exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> David Purdy
> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59
>
> Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for 
> reading. Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end 
> of a day.
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OSMF

[Mike Schwab]

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:40 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
> later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
> liked.
>
> As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
> longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
> mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
> comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I 
> now keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for 
> reading my monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for 
> reading up close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.
>
> Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
> the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
> the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact 
> that I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten 
> about them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my 
> field of vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a 
> sense.  Maybe if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real 
> bifocals.  (Somebody else probably would have, though.)
>
> But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
> eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder 
> then why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
> exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> David Purdy
> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59
>
> Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for 
> reading. Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end 
> of a day.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Farley, Peter]

I will add on to Sri's excellent answer with my very STRONG recommendation NOT 
to use hard-coded SORTWK's in your JCL.  Both of the major SORT vendors (IBM 
and Syncsort) do a far, far better job of estimating necessary SORTWK space and 
memory utilization than any human could hope to do.

I also STRONGLY recommend that you give your JCL and program-controlled SORT 
steps as much memory in the REGION parameter as your installation allows for 
production and test jobs.  Both of the major SORT programs will figure out how 
much of that memory to use, whether and how much of it to use in the current 
WLM environment, and will make VERY effective use of as much of it as they can 
to cut down on SORT execution and elapsed time.  Memory is (relatively) cheap, 
don't be afraid to use all you've got available to shorten your SORT times.

My basic advice is don't try to second-guess these very intelligent programs - 
they each have more than half a century of practice and experience that none of 
us can match, even those of us who have been around that long.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Sri 
h Kolusu
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 12:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SORTWK space usage

>>I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
>>cylinders is never used. Is that right?

Billy,

No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if you 
allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 + 
15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary 
extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.

>>Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
>>understand this?
>>Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how much 
>>DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in memory at the 
>>time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort determines what it needs.

I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will allocate 
the required workspace optimally rather than programmers calculating it.  The 
reason is you don't want to change the allocation every time there is an 
increase/decrease in the number of records to be sorted.

Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.

The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the file. It usually 
ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file to be sorted depending on the 
sorting path that DFSORT chose.  

Filesize = Number of records * Avg length of the record ( for Fixed length 
RECFM=F or FB , it is the LRECL value, or RECFM=V or RECFM=VB is the average 
length of the record)

However, that range is applicable ONLY when the entire file is being sorted 
using Disk workspace. DFSORT has the capability of using memory (real and 
auxiliary storage) and if it runs out of it, it will then use disk workspace.


Thanks,
Kolusu
--

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and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.


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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Sri h Kolusu]

>>I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 14x2000 
>>cylinders is never used. Is that right?

Billy,

No. Incorrect. DFSORT will make use of BOTH primary and secondary space 
allocations ( 1 primary + 15 Secondary) for a total of 16 extents.  So if you 
allocated 1 sortwk dataset with (CYL,(5000,2000)), then DFSORT would use 5000 + 
15* 2000 = 5000 + 3 = 35,000 cylinders.  Also note that the secondary 
extents will only come into picture ONLY when needed.

>>Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
>>understand this?
>>Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how much 
>>DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in memory at the 
>>time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort determines what it needs.

I would suggest that you use DFSORT's Dynamic Allocation as it will allocate 
the required workspace optimally rather than programmers calculating it.  The 
reason is you don't want to change the allocation every time there is an 
increase/decrease in the number of records to be sorted.

Having said that, here is a general formula that you want to use.

The amount of sortwk space required depends on the size of the file. It usually 
ranges from 1.3X to 1.8X of the size of the file to be sorted depending on the 
sorting path that DFSORT chose.  

Filesize = Number of records * Avg length of the record ( for Fixed length 
RECFM=F or FB , it is the LRECL value, or RECFM=V or RECFM=VB is the average 
length of the record)

However, that range is applicable ONLY when the entire file is being sorted 
using Disk workspace. DFSORT has the capability of using memory (real and 
auxiliary storage) and if it runs out of it, it will then use disk workspace.


Thanks,
Kolusu

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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Scott Barry]

**CORRECTION** - sorry, that's 4,369 cylinders or 65,535 tracks

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 11:13:03 -0500, Scott Barry  wrote:

>Both DFSORT and SYNCSORT make use of primary and secondary space allocations 
>(up to the z/OS legacy 16 extents per volume) but for only the first volume - 
>there is not VOLADD processing taken.  
>
>Also, if SORTWKxx DDs are hardcoded, then you must also have the DSNTYPE=LARGE 
>(either explicit or via DATACLAS) to get past the again-legacy 1439 cylinders 
>(equlvalent), again but only for the first-volume and without VOLADD.  
>
>Otherwise if you omit SORTWKxx DDs and allow the host sort package to do its 
>best to estimate input data records/size volume, then you automatically get 
>DSNTYPE=LARGE via dynamic allocation means.
>
>Scott Barry
>SBBTech LLC
>
>Supplemental IBM.COM DFSORT Link: 
>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=guide-using-work-space
>
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Re: SORTWK space usage

[Scott Barry]

Both DFSORT and SYNCSORT make use of primary and secondary space allocations 
(up to the z/OS legacy 16 extents per volume) but for only the first volume - 
there is not VOLADD processing taken.  

Also, if SORTWKxx DDs are hardcoded, then you must also have the DSNTYPE=LARGE 
(either explicit or via DATACLAS) to get past the again-legacy 1439 cylinders 
(equlvalent), again but only for the first-volume and without VOLADD.  

Otherwise if you omit SORTWKxx DDs and allow the host sort package to do its 
best to estimate input data records/size volume, then you automatically get 
DSNTYPE=LARGE via dynamic allocation means.

Scott Barry
SBBTech LLC

Supplemental IBM.COM DFSORT Link: 
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=guide-using-work-space

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Re: 0C1 abend

[Tom Marchant]

I think that Steve's "eternal quest for things to do" was simply a reference to 
the 
fact that the CPU always fetches another instruction after processing the last 
one, 
except when the last one was to load a wait state PSW.

-- 
Tom Marchant

On Sat, 1 Jul 2023 13:15:37 -0500, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Jul 2023 10:22:23 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>The "normal cause" is that an invalid opcode came up in the CPU's eternal
>>quest for things to do.
>>
>"quest for things to do" sounds like speculative execution.  What
>happens to a program check in speculative execution?  Does it
>speculatively enter the exception handler, etc.?

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Re: 0C1 abend

[Tom Marchant]

The only way to determine the cause is to analyze the dump.
There is no "normally", though there are several "commonly".

-- 
Tom Marchant

On Sat, 1 Jul 2023 08:03:59 -0500, Bill Giannelli  
wrote:

>How do I resolve a 0C1 abend. what is normally the cause?
>thanks

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SORTWK space usage

[Billy Ashton]

Hello DFSort experts!

Where can I find the explanation of SORTWK space usage? I seem to recall 
reading that only the primary space is used on a SORTWK, so if I have

//SORTWK  DD SPACE=(CYL,(5000,2000))...
I will only get the primary space of 5000 cylinders, and the other 
14x2000 cylinders is never used. Is that right?


Is there a written explanation I can forward to the programmers so they 
understand this?


Also (since I know it will come), is there any good way to calculate how 
much DASD sortwork would be used? I know this depends on what is in 
memory at the time, but want to get a better handle on how Sort 
determines what it needs.


Thanks, everyone! This might be a good discussion!
Billy Ashton

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
liked.

As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I now 
keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for reading my 
monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for reading up 
close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.

Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact that 
I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten about 
them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my field of 
vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a sense.  Maybe 
if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real bifocals.  
(Somebody else probably would have, though.)

But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder then 
why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Purdy
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59

Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for reading. 
Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end of a day.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

I used laptops for years because of travel, but I never used their screens
or keyboards at home.  I plug a real screen and a real keyboard into the
laptop, oh yes and a real trackball too.  Laptops are marvelous inventions,
but there's no need to put up with their limitations.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The peculiarity of "civil rights" and associated legislation ("hate
crimes," for instance) is that they criminalize motives, as opposed to
actions.  -from _Are You a Marxist?_ by Joe Sobran, 1998 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 00:39

Throughout my career,  my definitions of large and small monitors kept
shifting; where once 17" was something to aspire to, I now consider it to be
tiny, and where once 4Kx4K was "if you have to ask you can't afford it", now
"8K UHD" is merely expensive.

While I have small legacy laptops and am force to use small screens for
work, It's been decades since I purchased anything smaller than 21".

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I now 
keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for reading my 
monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for reading up 
close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.

Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact that 
I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten about 
them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my field of 
vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a sense.  Maybe 
if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real bifocals.  
(Somebody else probably would have, though.)

But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder then 
why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Purdy
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59

Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for reading. 
Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end of a day.

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Re: A Discussion about RLSE on RAID Drives with Chat GPT-4

[Walt Farrell]

Thanks, Hobart.

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Broadcom SCRT

[rpinion865]

Anyone else having issues logging onto Broadcom SCRT website?

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

Long ago in a galaxy far away I was content with a 3180 running 43x80 primary 
and 27x132 secondary (required a custom logmode) and was happy with a 3290 
running as one 62x160 screen with ISPF SPLIT and VSPLIT to subdivide it.

Alas, while I know of TN3270 clients that support 62x160, I don't know of any 
that is compatible with the 3290; specifically, I don't know of any that 
support explicit partitions, required by ISPF for VSPLIT.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Spiegel [0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 8:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Hi Terri,
If you have a 14 inch monitor, it is time to invest in your career and
get a proper monitor (e.g. 27 inch minimum).
If you're seeing 3-4 lines, it also means that you're probably using
Model 2 emulation (24x80). Model 2 for a SysProg wastes a lot of time
with unnecessarily scrolling, plus your context is not useful.
You should be running (minimum) Model 4 emulation (43x80) and preferably
3290 emulation (62x160).

Regards,
David

On 2023-07-02 19:50, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.
>
> I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
> process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn’t cut it.
>
> Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and 
> I will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag 
> them and I will resolve in batch.
>
> Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 
> lines on a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see 
> them with ease.
>
> Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it’s the first thing 
> that doesn’t respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen 
> flip.
>
> Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.
>
> Just a bad design overall
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> kekronbekron
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...
>
> What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
> Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.
>
> Websphere Liberty,... what else?
> What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?
>
>
> - KB
>
> --- Original Message ---
> On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
>> the past.
>> Some examples:
>> z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
>> or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
>> available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
>> 2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
>> z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support 
>> dropped 2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
>> z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
>> AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.
>>
>> I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
>> hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
>> off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new 
>> release of the operating system on all processors that are currently 
>> supported at GA.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Marchant
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
>> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:
>>
>>> So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
>>> officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .
>>
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Re: Usage of strcasecmp gives implicit function warning even with

[David Crayford]

|"#define _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED 1" needs to b at the top of the source 
file and work work if interleaved. I would define all compiler flags in 
the build and not as pre-processor #define declarations.|


On 3/7/2023 9:38 am, Eric Erickson wrote:

I'm a bit perplexed here.

I'm using XL C and the strcasecmp function. I've included  and added 
the #define for  _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED as  documented in the library reference, as 
shown below. But I still get a warning message for it.

#define _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED 1
#include 

CCN4421 ...   Implicit function declaration for function "strcasecmp".

Don't understand why? I know its just a nit warning, but I like to resolve as 
many of these as possible just to get the compiles as clean as possible.

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Re: z/OSMF

[David Crayford]

The z/OSMF UI suffers from a notable issue - despite being labeled as 
modern, it falls short in comparison to current web UI standards. It 
relies on the outdated Dojo Toolkit, which was already considered 
outdated when z/OSMF was initially released and is practically obsolete 
now. In defense of Terri and her 14" screen, z/OSMF should be designed 
to be usable on mobile devices by implementing responsive design 
principles. Responsive design aims to ensure that web pages render well 
across various devices and screen sizes, from the minimum to maximum 
display size, ensuring usability and user satisfaction.


To test this, one can press F12 on any browser while in z/OSMF and 
select a device from the mobile device mode button. Unfortunately, 
z/OSMF fails to resize correctly, resulting in a terrible user 
experience. If this is considered the future, it is a concerning 
prospect. IBM should consider engaging experienced UX professionals to 
address these issues promptly, as the current state of z/OSMF is far 
from satisfactory.


On 3/7/2023 7:50 am, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.

I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn’t cut it.

Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and I 
will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag them 
and I will resolve in batch.

Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 lines on 
a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see them with 
ease.

Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it’s the first thing that 
doesn’t respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen flip.

Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.

Just a bad design overall

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
kekronbekron
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...

What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.

Websphere Liberty,... what else?
What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?


- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom 
Marchant<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>  wrote:



I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
the past.
Some examples:
z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support dropped 
2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.

I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new release 
of the operating system on all processors that are currently supported at GA.

--
Tom Marchant

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian 
westermanbrian_wester...@syzygyinc.com  wrote:


So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .


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