date:20230729

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Tom Brennan


Sounds good, thanks!

On 7/29/2023 11:29 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:

  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:


Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,
you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.


I give everyone the benefit of the doubt from the start and treat them respect. 
There is simply a point where I think it's obvious that someone is 
intentionally being disrespectful. The vast majority in this group are 
extremely respectful.

As for ignoring questions and responses, that is more often a problem of yahoo 
mail web interface. Tab, backspace and space somehow permanently delete entire 
threads and I can no longer find them (not even in trash). I apologize if I did 
not respond when I should have.

As for making fun of you and I was in the wrong, then I apologize. As a rule, I 
don't act snarky unless something is happening. I don't recall the situation 
but maybe I misinterpreted something you said or maybe incorrectly felt you 
were being disrespectful of someone else. If that was not your intent, then I 
apologize for my mistake.
  
  On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan  wrote:
  
  Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,

you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

On 7/29/2023 9:14 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:

I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of demanding it.


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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Jon Perryman

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 >  wrote:

> Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect,
> you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you
> did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt from the start and treat them respect. 
There is simply a point where I think it's obvious that someone is 
intentionally being disrespectful. The vast majority in this group are 
extremely respectful.

As for ignoring questions and responses, that is more often a problem of yahoo 
mail web interface. Tab, backspace and space somehow permanently delete entire 
threads and I can no longer find them (not even in trash). I apologize if I did 
not respond when I should have. 

As for making fun of you and I was in the wrong, then I apologize. As a rule, I 
don't act snarky unless something is happening. I don't recall the situation 
but maybe I misinterpreted something you said or maybe incorrectly felt you 
were being disrespectful of someone else. If that was not your intent, then I 
apologize for my mistake.

 On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 09:58:00 PM PDT, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:  

 Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect, 
you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you 
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.

On 7/29/2023 9:14 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:
> I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of demanding it.

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PDS/e [was: Definition of mainframe?]

2023-07-29 Thread Jon Perryman

 >On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 03:26:45 PM PDT, Rick Troth  
 >wrote:
> I don't follow your comparison of PDS/e and Unix filesystems.

Understanding PDS/e inefficiency is critical to understand because it is the 
functional equivalent of a Unix filesystem. Put on your z/OS DASD sysprog hat 
for a moment and think about the problems caused by a 10TB PDS/e file with 
thousands of members being written and read by hundreds of users at the same 
time. As DASD sysprog, you can't change anything to make this file perform 
efficiently. Each block is written to a random available block in this 10TB 
file. Deleting files free's blocks which may cause the disk head to bounce 
around the disk. You can make VSAM and sequential files efficient but you are 
at the mercy of PDS/e.

Anyone remember compressing a PDS or defragging MS Windows disk? PDS/e and 
filesystems suffer from fragmentation and more.

> Some features of Unix (and Linux) filesystems are a step up from historical 
> MVS data sets

There are problems with both. I disagree that filesystems are a step up from 
MVS data sets. When did you last defrag a sequential z/OS file? I know that 
architecturally, filesystems and PDS/e are different but conceptually they are 
the same. We could talk about implementation but then we ignore why filesystems 
perform badly for Windows, Linux, z/OS Unix and other OS's.

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 03:26:45 PM PDT, Rick Troth 
 wrote:  

 I don't follow your comparison of PDS/e and Unix filesystems.
If I saw correlation of Linux filesystems with PDS, I glossed over it as 
stoopid. (Here again, I feel your pain.)

My understanding is that PDS is (historically) a means of segmenting one 
data set into related chunks. They're "related" because they're all 
members of the same data set.
The real "filesystem" for MVS is the catalog, and the "files" are the 
data sets, whether partitioned or not. Hopefully the VTOC and the 
catalog match-up. That's not always required.

PDS are also flat, unless something has changed recently.
PDS is more like the partition table on a PC disk. (Though the latter 
doesn't use names, per se, and tends to have less "members".)

You're absolutely right: a Unix filesystem is a file containing files. 
There the similarity to PDS ends.
Unix filesystems have two important features: inodes and directories. 
The inodes are usually invisible. The directories connect inodes with 
names, which is what people see.
A hard link is where two files (by name) refer to the same inode. A 
symbolic link is a special kind of Unix file that names another file. 
Here's a neat trick: you can make a hard link to a sym-link.
There are only a handful of actual file *types*:

  * plain file
  * directory
  * character special (like a terminal)
  * block special (like a disk drive or partition thereof)
  * symbolic link
  * and a couple others added by OMVS ... really

As I recall, other Unix vendors added their own special types. But I've 
slept since then and memory is fuzzy (or maybe I dreamed it).

Not all "filesystems" mountable on a Linux system properly implement 
inodes and directories. They therefore lack some functionality in 
practice; it can be significant.

Some features of Unix (and Linux) filesystems are a step up from 
historical MVS data sets. It is sadly still possible to have a data set 
with no time stamp.
So you can count that as one thing Unix did that MVS has learned 
afterward. (Not a slam on z/OS. Just keeping things in perspective.)

-- R; <><

On 7/29/23 12:28, Jon Perryman wrote:
> Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article is 
> complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing to do 
> with reality. Can anyone prove me 
> wrong?https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/.
>
> The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. 
> Linux will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I 
> suspect it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but I 
> suspect that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the definition 
> of MAINFRAME?
>
> 1. CPU does not make a mainframe: The smallest IBM z16 (39 user cores of the 
> 64 cores) is the same as an AMD Ryzen 4.2Ghz CPU (64 user cores of 64 cores). 
> The largest IBM z16 (200 user cores of the 256 cores) is the same as 4 AMD 
> Ryzen CPU on 1 motherboard (256 user cores of the 256 cores). Both are CISC 
> CPU (AMD uses X86 instructions versus IBM z instructions). IBM Telum (5.2Ghz) 
> has a slightly faster clock than AMD Ryzen (4.2Ghz) but is offset by the 25% 
> extra user cores. IBM z16 has 4 motherboards for 16 CPU and the same AMD 
> Ryzen would need 1 motherboard for 4 CPU.
>
> 2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are 
> also on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other 
> hardware (e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Tom Brennan

Ok, I guess that could mean that if/until someone earns your respect, 
you make fun of them like you did with me, ignore their answers like you 
did with me, and ignore their questions like you did with me.


On 7/29/2023 9:14 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:

I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of demanding it.


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Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

2023-07-29 Thread Peter Vels

That is OK.  But I need to see the output from the GSKSRVR trace to get to
the bottom of the issue.  I suspect that you are missing a CA somewhere,
and the trace will tell us WHICH certificate that is.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 14:23, Brian Westerman 
wrote:

> This is what I get from your command:
>
> racdcert id(CSSMTP) listr(CSSMTPRing)
> Digital ring information for user CSSMTP:
>
>Ring:
> >CSSMTPRing<
>Certificate Label Name Cert Owner USAGE  DEFAULT
>         ---
>CSSMTPCA   CERTAUTH   CERTAUTH NO
>CSSMTPServer   ID(CSSMTP) PERSONAL YES
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Re: Preferred FTP Client for Windows

2023-07-29 Thread Ed Jaffe


On 7/27/2023 11:44 AM, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

I don't remember what the deal was with NFS when I asked about it 3 years ago.


More than likely its dependence on Kerberos...


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831 Parkview Drive North
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https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

2023-07-29 Thread Brian Westerman

This is what I get from your command: 

racdcert id(CSSMTP) listr(CSSMTPRing)
Digital ring information for user CSSMTP:  

   Ring:
>CSSMTPRing< 
   Certificate Label Name Cert Owner USAGE  DEFAULT  
            ---  
   CSSMTPCA   CERTAUTH   CERTAUTH NO 
   CSSMTPServer   ID(CSSMTP) PERSONAL YES
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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Jon Perryman

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 >  wrote:
> I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, 

If I'm continually "wrong again", how is it that we arrived at the solution? 
Does anyone think that Seymour was leading Phil towards a solution to his 
problem? I'm civil to those who earn and demonstrate respect instead of 
demanding it. Lack of humility and the inability to understand the value of 
what others say is not a sign of respect. To prattle on about complete nonsense 
is not a sign of respect. What in any way was Seymour's comments being useful 
or informative? With the help of others, I was able to lead Phil to a solution 
for his problem and a solution he understands. I have no doubt that Seymour 
thinks he played a vital role in solving this problem but as he says, the 
devils in the details. I don't expect people to have all the correct answers 
but I do expect humility and respect for everyone in this group (not just me). 
Disagreements are expected but complete dismissal is not acceptable. I will 
show respect as long as respect is returned. As long as everyone is being 
respected, I will return that respect. Time will tell if Seymour has actually 
learned from what I've said.

Please accept my apologies for those who are upset with me but there is a line 
that I will not allow to be crossed without some form of retribution.

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 04:33:30 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:  

 I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, but when someone 
insists on repeated personal attacks. Take a look at the history of this thread 
and you will see that I have been restrained by comparison.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jay 
Maynard 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 6:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> stop with the non-stop nonsense.
>
>    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Jon Perryman 
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
>
>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> > linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts
>
>
> Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:
>
> 1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The
> hardware console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing to
> do with DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.
>
> 2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the
> terminal is defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides they
> need a console located next to the tape drives and another console next to
> printers, then DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.
>
> 3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default for
> screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the
> screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days or
> weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
>    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
>
>  After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the
> CONSOLE entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition)
> and reIPLing the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without
> artifacts, as it did on our old hosting environment.
>
> I'm convinced based on the evidence that:
>
> *    The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
> *    The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
> *    The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the
> old environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for the
> guest
> *    They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual
> console at 03E1
>
>
> That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the
> behavior in an unintuitive way. Now we know.
>
> Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an
> odyssey but we got there.
>
> And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without
> significant topic drift, at least

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

2023-07-29 Thread Peter Vels

"ADD" adds a certificate (contained in a data set) to RACF, but *not* to a
keyring.  For that you need "CONNECT".

RC 8 means: An error is detected while validating a certificate, so a CA is
missing from the keyring (even though you might've ADDed it to RACF).

IBM says (edited for brevity):

1. Verify that the root CA certificate is in the SAF key ring and is marked
as trusted.

Does...

*racdcert id(CSSMTP) listr(CSSMTPRing)*

...now show that the CSSMTPRing has the mail server's certificate added as
a CERTAUTH?  If not then:

*RACDCERT CONNECT(CERTAUTH +  LABEL('Email server CA') +  RING(CSSMTPRing)
+USAGE(CERTAUTH) +  ) +  ID(CSSMTP)*

2. Check all certificates in the certification chain and verify that they
are trusted and are not expired:

*RACFCERT ID(CSSMTP) LISTCHAIN*

3. Issue the *SETROPTS RACLIST (DIGTCERT, DIGTRING) REFRESH* command to
refresh the profiles to ensure that the latest changes are available.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 at 12:12, Brian Westerman 
wrote:

> I get
> BPXF024I (TCPIP) Jul 30 01:12:45 TTLS[16777256]: 18:12:45 TCPIP  639
> EZD1286I TTLS Error GRPID: 0007 ENVID: 0009 CONNID: 009B
> LOCAL: 192.168.1.66..1122 REMOTE: 99.198.97.250..587 JOBNAME: CSSMTP
> USERID: CSSMTP RULE: CSSMTP  RC:8 Initial Handshake 00
> 00 005187621CF0 
>
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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Mike Schwab

Me just thinking about the 'Levels Of Argument' keeps me calm when the name
calling begins.

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 17:48 Jay Maynard  wrote:

> Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?
>
> On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:
>
> >  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> > sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> > consoles is the norm.
> >
> > See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> > says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> > stop with the non-stop nonsense.
> >
> > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> > sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> > consoles is the norm.
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> > of Jon Perryman 
> > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
> >
> >  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> > li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > > After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> > > linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts
> >
> >
> > Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:
> >
> > 1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The
> > hardware console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing
> to
> > do with DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.
> >
> > 2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the
> > terminal is defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides
> they
> > need a console located next to the tape drives and another console next
> to
> > printers, then DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.
> >
> > 3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default
> for
> > screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the
> > screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days
> or
> > weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
> > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> > li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> >
> >  After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the
> > CONSOLE entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition)
> > and reIPLing the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without
> > artifacts, as it did on our old hosting environment.
> >
> > I'm convinced based on the evidence that:
> >
> > *The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
> > *The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
> > *The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the
> > old environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for
> the
> > guest
> > *They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual
> > console at 03E1
> >
> >
> > That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the
> > behavior in an unintuitive way. Now we know.
> >
> > Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an
> > odyssey but we got there.
> >
> > And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without
> > significant topic drift, at least in a while. No idea why, but that's
> rare
> > here!
> >
> > ...phsiii
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
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>
>
> --
> Jay Maynard
>
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Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

2023-07-29 Thread Brian Westerman

I get 
BPXF024I (TCPIP) Jul 30 01:12:45 TTLS[16777256]: 18:12:45 TCPIP  639   
EZD1286I TTLS Error GRPID: 0007 ENVID: 0009 CONNID: 009B   
LOCAL: 192.168.1.66..1122 REMOTE: 99.198.97.250..587 JOBNAME: CSSMTP   
USERID: CSSMTP RULE: CSSMTP  RC:8 Initial Handshake 00 
00 005187621CF0 

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Re: speaking of filesystems [was: Definition of mainframe?]

2023-07-29 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:26:29 -0400, Rick Troth wrote:
>
>Here's a neat trick: you can make a hard link to a sym-link.
>
I believe that's not required for POSIX conformance.  But I may
be misled by the lack of that ability in the "ln" utility.

>There are only a handful of actual file *types*:
>
>  * plain file
>  * directory
>  * character special (like a terminal)
>  * block special (like a disk drive or partition thereof)
>  * symbolic link
>  * and a couple others added by OMVS ... really
>
A colleague said, "Everything is a file."  OS/360 aimed for that
target with the abstraction of DD names, but missed by exposing
hardware characteristics with "attributes" such as RECFM=FBM.
OMVS recovered considerable with access methods that generate
RDWs, etc. as specified by the DCB.  (But they don't synthesize
the carriage control character. )

CMS doesn't even try, having distinct system calls for each device
type.

-- 
gil

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Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]

2023-07-29 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 18:47:54 -0400, Rick Troth wrote:

>Xwindows is used by Linux because it had been developed widely and was
>common on Unix when Linux came into popular view.
>
One thing that Xwindows got wrong was exposing the bit pitch in the API.
A co-worker lamented that on his new Mac with Retina display his X
windows shrank to postage stamp size.  Somehow, it's better nowadays.

(PostScript coordinates are typographer's points, regardless of device
resolution.  But I listened to an IPDS partisan laud that protocol for letting
him address individual pels.)

-- 
gil

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

2023-07-29 Thread Grant Taylor


On 7/29/23 11:28 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:
Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica 
article is complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of 
mind and nothing to do with reality. Can anyone prove me wrong?


I tend to agree that mainframe can be a state of mine which is formed by 
history and available associated technical solutions.


The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe 
slots. Linux will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget 
zPDT because I suspect it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say 
with any certainty, but I suspect that z/OS will run on a PC by using 
Hercules. What is the definition of MAINFRAME?


I'm fairly certain that zPDT and RDz are purely software emulated 
mainframes.  I've not seen anything like the P/390-E card in a long time.


I also know for a fact that people have gotten some versions of z/OS to 
run in Hercules.



1. CPU does not make a mainframe:


I think that the CPU and what it's optimized to do hints at what it is 
well suited to be used for.


I've seen video evidence of a single human being tugging an air plane 
from the gate.  But that doesn't mean that airports are giving up on 
their tug vehicles.



2. Hardware does not make a mainframe.


I think that the hardware and what it's optimized to do hints at what it 
is well suited to be used for.



3. OS does not make a mainframe.


I think that an OS and what it's optimized to do hints at it is well 
suited to be used for.


I know that my last three comments have effectively been an "it is what 
it is" type of answer.  But the crux of it is that the $THING has been 
optimized to do the task that it's employed to do.


I wouldn't use an El Camino to haul rolls of steal to a factory any more 
than I would use an eighteen wheeler to deliver a pizza.


Linux running on z16 doesn't make it mainframe Linux. There's nothing 
stopping Linux from taking advantage of every z16 hardware feature 
(e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to build the Linux 
software.


I question the veracity of that statement.

Let's start with this - please share one z16 feature that Linux doesn't 
use so that we can discuss it.


I'm sure there are a number of them.  But I suspect the reason that 
Linux doesn't use it is for possibly surprising reasons.  Reasons that 
are probably rooted in the origins of things.



IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in Linux.


I actually largely agree with that statement.

To me, the biggest things that differentiates the mainframe / z/OS / 
etc. from Linux is the other facilities that the mainframe / z/OS provide.


I think the package suite / solution stack that is the mainframe to be 
the most salient thing that differentiates the mainframe from 
non-mainframes.


I've read many articles / heard (recordings of / videos of) some 
discussions where people say that porting applications from z/OS to 
Linux isn't a matter of re-compiling things.  Sure, the code will, or 
can be made to, compile on Linux.  But many the supporting facilities 
that z/OS provides are completely non-existent.


4. Software does not make a mainframe. IBM sells DB2 for Linux and DB2 
for z/OS.


I think that significant differentiators actually are software.  It's 
just not -- what I'm going to call -- the primary line of business 
software like DB2 / Domino / SAP / etc.


I think it's other software, CICS, RACF, IMS, etc. that provide 
supporting services afor the primary line of business applications.


DB2 for Linux runs on all hardware including z16. With Linux, you 
can still run DB2 on z16 but large customers choose DB2 for z/OS.


I take what others are doing with a huge grain of salt.  I've seen too 
many businesses continue to run something somewhere that it has been 
running for a long time because of non-technical reasons.  People. 
Support.  Technical debt.


ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name 
the philosophy that makes a mainframe.


From what I've seen, the mainframe has integrated reliability, 
availability, and serviceability (RAS) at the hardware and OS level.


Conversely, Open Systems tend to not have the RAS capabilities that the 
mainframe has.  As such, Open Systems application designers have 
integrated RAS like features at different levels if they cared to have 
them because the hardware / OS didn't provide them.


Despite the story's false claims for z/OS relevance, it is ignorance 
in the Linux community that makes IBM z/OS relevant. Specifically, 
it's the lack of design in Linux. Consider DB2 for Linux and DB2 
for z/OS which are the same product both from IBM and available on 
an IBM z16. Linux people tell you they provide the same results, 
but they ignore the intrinsic capabilities of z/OS design.


Does ignoring the intrinsic capabilities of z/OS design alter what the 
DB2 on z/OS vs DB2 on Linux on z is capable of doing?


I'm talking brutal dollar for dollar, pound for pound, BTU

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Seymour J Metz

I'm perfectly willing to be civil with people who are civil, but when someone 
insists on repeated personal attacks. Take a look at the history of this thread 
and you will see that I have been restrained by comparison.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jay 
Maynard 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 6:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> stop with the non-stop nonsense.
>
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Jon Perryman 
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
>
>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> > linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts
>
>
> Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:
>
> 1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The
> hardware console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing to
> do with DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.
>
> 2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the
> terminal is defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides they
> need a console located next to the tape drives and another console next to
> printers, then DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.
>
> 3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default for
> screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the
> screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days or
> weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
>
>  After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the
> CONSOLE entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition)
> and reIPLing the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without
> artifacts, as it did on our old hosting environment.
>
> I'm convinced based on the evidence that:
>
> *The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
> *The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
> *The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the
> old environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for the
> guest
> *They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual
> console at 03E1
>
>
> That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the
> behavior in an unintuitive way. Now we know.
>
> Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an
> odyssey but we got there.
>
> And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without
> significant topic drift, at least in a while. No idea why, but that's rare
> here!
>
> ...phsiii
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
Jay Maynard

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

of COBOL and other languages [was: Definition of mainframe?]

2023-07-29 Thread Rick Troth

We had an ... interesting ... conversation over on the assembler list a
couple weeks ago.
I knee-jerked against something PHSiii said. I sorta started some
flaming. Not intentional.

Yeah ... the author got me ticked off too.
I'm actually not a COBOL fan, but I truly wish more of us knew it (and
used it).
It annoys me to the max when people reject things due to age or
perceived obsolescence.

FORTRAN is older but catches less crap than COBOL.

As an industry, we need less allergies to languages outside our normal
space.
It's frustrating the Java has become such a requirement. Java itself is
a great language, but nobody compiles it to native; they leave it as
byte code requiring a JVM. That makes it difficult to work with other
languages. (Java can call out to C, assembler, even COBOL, using the
JNI, but those languages cannot call back "in" to Java inside the JVM.)

COBOL does not require a mainframe and mainframes do not require COBOL.

Jon, you should drop a note to the chief editor at ARS Technica. Tell
him (or her) how far off the mark they were!

-- R; <><

On 7/29/23 12:28, Jon Perryman wrote:

Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article is
complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing to do
with reality. Can anyone prove me wrong?
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/.

The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. Linux
will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I suspect
it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but I suspect
that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the definition of
MAINFRAME?

1. CPU does not make a mainframe: The smallest IBM z16 (39 user cores of the 64
cores) is the same as an AMD Ryzen 4.2Ghz CPU (64 user cores of 64 cores). The
largest IBM z16 (200 user cores of the 256 cores) is the same as 4 AMD Ryzen
CPU on 1 motherboard (256 user cores of the 256 cores). Both are CISC CPU (AMD
uses X86 instructions versus IBM z instructions). IBM Telum (5.2Ghz) has a
slightly faster clock than AMD Ryzen (4.2Ghz) but is offset by the 25% extra
user cores. IBM z16 has 4 motherboards for 16 CPU and the same AMD Ryzen would
need 1 motherboard for 4 CPU.

2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are also
on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other hardware
(e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 1,600 PCIe
slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and more.
Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if there was
enough customer demand.

3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it mainframe
Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of every z16
hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to build the
Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in Linux.

4. Software does not make a mainframe. IBM sells DB2 for Linux and DB2 for
z/OS. DB2 for Linux runs on all hardware including z16. With Linux, you can
still run DB2 on z16 but large customers choose DB2 for z/OS.

ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference
between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software.

ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the
philosophy that makes a mainframe.

Despite the story's false claims for z/OS relevance, it is ignorance in the
Linux community that makes IBM z/OS relevant. Specifically, it's the lack of
design in Linux. Consider DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS which are the same
product both from IBM and available on an IBM z16. Linux people tell you they
provide the same results, but they ignore the intrinsic capabilities of z/OS
design. DB2 for Linux supports high availability and large databases but it
requires knowledge of big data solutions, Linux clustering solutions and more.
Add a computer to the cluster and you must replicate the master disk. Take a
computer offline from the cluster, then it must re-sync or replicate the master
disk. DB2 on z/OS does not experience these problems because of z/OS shared
dasd and dasd mirroring.

ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant feature design that originated directly from
Linux or Unix. Please don't use features that originated from IBM (e.g.
databases, SQL, HTML, Cloud and more).

Brilliant feature design exposes very little. For instance, does anyone know
the problems solved by z/OS shared dasd and dasd mirroring. Linux people on the
other hand can easily name those problems solved if you mention clustering
solutions and big data solutions. I've personally seen one sysplex split
between 2 sites 40 KM apart using line of site satellite dishes for
communication, yet z/OS app programmers were informed. In other words, IBM
designs for the 21st century.

ASK YOURSELF

bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]

2023-07-29 Thread Rick Troth

Xwindows is used by Linux because it had been developed widely and was
common on Unix when Linux came into popular view.
Xwindows itself is an excellent development. Sadly, Xwindows is way to
"chatty" and has other issues. (But the reactions against it from the
security community are WAY out of line, MUCH to aggressive. Xwindows is
not and evil back door for the hackers. But I digress.)

Bitmapped displays have been a mandate since Xerox Alto. It was actually
before that, but the Alto is what wowwed Steve Jobs, leading to the
Macintosh.
I'm happy with text mode, though I do require full-screen. But I'm
content to use bitmapped screens and apps when appropriate.

You're right: z/OS already does Xwindows.
Mac doesn't use Xwindows, but its fore-runner NeXT did X just fine.
(personal experience)
MS Windows doesn't do X, but there are numerous utilities bridging the
gap. (Personally I go for CYGWIN/X when corp IT doesn't get in the way.
Works great!)
I rarely use X based apps on MVS, but I've used them occasionally for
more than two decades. (Even used X from CMS. Tell the ARS Technica guy
*that*, will ya?)

The nice thing about Xwindows is that it's the same from one platform to
the next.

Most of the original hand-helds did Xwindows, though today's hand-helds
are mostly Android or iPhone, of which neither do X, that's true.

Most companies which still sell their own Unix variant (IBM for one)
support Xwindows. Nothing there to do with Linux.

But about Linux and X ...
Mike Martin and I were at BMC in 1999 when Linux for S/390 was about to
be released. (And I'm skipping Bigfoot by Linas Vepstas which could go
even further back to S/370 hardware.)
To my knowledge, we were the first to run Linux/390 native outside of
IBM. We got time on the weekend, took down all production on the 600,
but it into basic mode, and IPLed. It crashed.
Jan Ott was our resident machine code genius. He looked at the dump.
"There's that Intel instruction." (New at the time relative op codes,
the biggest reason why Bigfoot got stomped.)
We had blown out the device table. Re-gen the IOCDS and tried again the
next weekend. Success!

Geek that I am, I started recompiling the compiler. (Gotta have the
latest compiler for everything else. Besides, Linux is "open source",
right?)
Mike was more sporty. He brought up DOOM. We had to borrow a nearby Sun
workstation (I forget which model). There was no BITMAPPED DISPLAY on
the mainframe.
But the beauty of this story is that DOOM was essentially the first
application to run on Linux/390 native (outside of IBM).

-- R; <><

On 7/29/23 12:28, Jon Perryman wrote:

ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference
between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software.

ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the
philosophy

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Jay Maynard

Now folks...let's not descend into personal name-calling, how about?

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that
> says "z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you
> stop with the non-stop nonsense.
>
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz <
> sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270
> consoles is the norm.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Jon Perryman 
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question
>
>  > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
> > After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> > linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts
>
>
> Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:
>
> 1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The
> hardware console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing to
> do with DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.
>
> 2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the
> terminal is defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides they
> need a console located next to the tape drives and another console next to
> printers, then DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.
>
> 3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default for
> screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the
> screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days or
> weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
> On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III <
> li...@akphs.com> wrote:
>
>  After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the
> CONSOLE entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition)
> and reIPLing the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without
> artifacts, as it did on our old hosting environment.
>
> I'm convinced based on the evidence that:
>
> *The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
> *The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
> *The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the
> old environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for the
> guest
> *They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual
> console at 03E1
>
>
> That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the
> behavior in an unintuitive way. Now we know.
>
> Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an
> odyssey but we got there.
>
> And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without
> significant topic drift, at least in a while. No idea why, but that's rare
> here!
>
> ...phsiii
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
Jay Maynard

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

speaking of filesystems [was: Definition of mainframe?]

2023-07-29 Thread Rick Troth

I don't follow your comparison of PDS/e and Unix filesystems.
If I saw correlation of Linux filesystems with PDS, I glossed over it as
stoopid. (Here again, I feel your pain.)

My understanding is that PDS is (historically) a means of segmenting one
data set into related chunks. They're "related" because they're all
members of the same data set.
The real "filesystem" for MVS is the catalog, and the "files" are the
data sets, whether partitioned or not. Hopefully the VTOC and the
catalog match-up. That's not always required.

PDS are also flat, unless something has changed recently.
PDS is more like the partition table on a PC disk. (Though the latter
doesn't use names, per se, and tends to have less "members".)

You're absolutely right: a Unix filesystem is a file containing files.
There the similarity to PDS ends.
Unix filesystems have two important features: inodes and directories.
The inodes are usually invisible. The directories connect inodes with
names, which is what people see.
A hard link is where two files (by name) refer to the same inode. A
symbolic link is a special kind of Unix file that names another file.
Here's a neat trick: you can make a hard link to a sym-link.

There are only a handful of actual file *types*:

* plain file
* directory
* character special (like a terminal)
* block special (like a disk drive or partition thereof)
* symbolic link
* and a couple others added by OMVS ... really

As I recall, other Unix vendors added their own special types. But I've
slept since then and memory is fuzzy (or maybe I dreamed it).

Not all "filesystems" mountable on a Linux system properly implement
inodes and directories. They therefore lack some functionality in
practice; it can be significant.

Some features of Unix (and Linux) filesystems are a step up from
historical MVS data sets. It is sadly still possible to have a data set
with no time stamp.
So you can count that as one thing Unix did that MVS has learned
afterward. (Not a slam on z/OS. Just keeping things in perspective.)

-- R; <><

On 7/29/23 12:28, Jon Perryman wrote:

Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article is
complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing to do
with reality. Can anyone prove me
wrong?https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/.

ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference
between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software.

ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the
philosophy that makes a mainframe.

Linux and z/OS and stuff [was: Definition of mainframe?]

2023-07-29 Thread Rick Troth

This is the IBM-MAIN discussion list, so let me tread lightly on my z/OS
friends.
It's correct that the O/S does not define "the mainframe". I can't count
the number of times I've cringed at things like "Linux for z/OS"
(instead of "Linux for Z").

I share your frustration over the wrong implications in the article.

I've been a fan of Unix for many years.
My first Unix was on a mainframe. Remember Amdahl? They picked up an
academic project to port Unix to the S/370. Wow ... such elegant design:
fully Unix and yet fully mainframe. Yeah, it talked ASCII but it had no
allergy to EBCDIC devices (printers and terminals).

There were other Unix developments for the mainframe. Some were
miserable. Some were excellent. AIX/ESA (not to be confused with AIX/370
XA) made excellent use of data spaces, then the latest technology in
mainframe development. AIX/ESA was not the half-hearted effort as some
other Unix-for-mainframe.

And then came Linux.

I've been a fan of Linux since it was release 0.x, using it as a
development platform from its earliest days. Linux is my primary
workstation in all cases.

The best thing about Linux is that it follows Unix.
Unix in turn does have several brilliant design ideas, one being
"everything is a file". While admittedly imperfect (you can surely site
exceptions), this has largely held true.
Unix sprung from MULTICS. A number of Unix inventors later developed
Plan 9, which some will argue is better than Unix. I won't enumerate; I
do agree, the author doesn't "get it". But Unix is an excellent "lab",
just different from z/OS.
In recent years, Linux has varied from traditional Unix designs. I'm not
keen on that trend, but it's beyond scope of this conversation.

MVS is, of course, the diesel locomotive where I want the heavy lifting.
(You mentioned DB2 and contrasted the two flavors. I concur.)
The fact that MVS also now has a Unix face is just added gravy, icing on
the cake. EBCDIC is a problem, even if ideally it should not be.
But I can bring in a high percentage of "open source" and "just make".
Ahhh...

Excellent as MVS is, I would not want it for desktop or laptop use, even
if it was ported to those instruction sets.
But Linux is fine in that context. And Linux can scale in ways that
other op sys cannot. (MacOS sure, but Windows, nah. And MVS can scale
yet further, duh.)

-- R; <><

On 7/29/23 12:28, Jon Perryman wrote:

ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference
between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software.

ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the
philosophy that makes a mainframe.

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Jon Perryman

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 >  wrote:
> Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270 
> consoles is the norm.

See-more Putz. What are you saying is wrong with my second sentence that says 
"z/OS has many consoles." which applies to native and z/VM. Can you stop with 
the non-stop nonsense.

On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 02:10:11 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:  

 Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270 consoles 
is the norm.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III 
 >  wrote:
> After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts

Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:

1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The hardware 
console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing to do with 
DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.

2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the terminal is 
defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides they need a console 
located next to the tape drives and another console next to printers, then 
DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.

3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default for 
screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the 
screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days or 
weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
    On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III 
 wrote:

 After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the CONSOLE 
entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition) and reIPLing 
the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts, as it did on 
our old hosting environment.

I'm convinced based on the evidence that:

*    The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
*    The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
*    The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the old 
environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for the guest
*    They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual 
console at 03E1

That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the behavior 
in an unintuitive way. Now we know.

Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an odyssey 
but we got there.

And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without 
significant topic drift, at least in a while. No idea why, but that's rare here!

...phsiii

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

2023-07-29 Thread Bob Bridges

I do like PL/1 very much.  PL/C (a subset) was the first language I ever 
learned, and although I have used lots of others since then I am still 
favorably impressed with PL/1's full control over storage.

Unfortunately I haven't written anything in it in a couple decades, so maybe 
the golden haze hovering over my memories of it aren't the best indication of 
its value compared to other languages.  And as a coder who spends most of his 
time writing customized commands and utilities rather than applications, I tend 
to prefer interpreters over compilers.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession 
of their character.  -Ralph Waldo Emerson */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 16:51

I thought PL/1 is "The only programming language you'll ever need."

However, COBOL can be coded using everyday, non-specialized English vocabulary 
such as "LEVEL 77".

--- On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 15:22:10 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
>  Ok, so I'm a software geek, I admit it.  But there are tasks for 
> which I like PL/1, or VBA, or REXX (or ooRexx), and so on.
>
>"Need"?  Maybe not absolutely must have, but they're sure helpful.

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

2023-07-29 Thread Rick Troth

Your inquiry is (understandably) somewhat of a reaction against
unfortunate trends in public thinking.
I will respond to them separately. First is triggered by the subject
line: definition of a mainframe.

Your #2 is a miss.
Hardware *does* make a mainframe: channelized I/O
Let me explain.

Remember the VAX?
DEC wanted to market their box as a "mainframe".
In those days, I was quite fond of the VAX, and of its most common O/S,
VMS.
(Later, I went back to VMS and ... oy vey ... trying to forget it.) So
foreign to me after being away.
But VAX hardware was redeemed (I say, not meaning to slam VMS) by Unix
and Linux being ported to it.

SATA is great, but doesn't count. It doesn't scale to the same extent.
FCP counts, but few machines talking FCP go to the same scaling as IBM Z
"clients".
So not all machines doing SATA or FCP or SCSI qualify as mainframes if
only because they don't go all-in with such I/O models.

Why was the VAX not a mainframe, as DEC wanted customers to believe?
It lacked channelized I/O. Not that it didn't have good input/output
facilities, but that it didn't have the same concepts, systems,
services, and sub-processors as machines from IBM (and others).

IBM is not the only company to produce large systems with channelized I/O.
Some vendors, in fact, used plug-compatible devices. Sweet! (Though they
might have called their machines "supercomputers". Okay, fine. And some
IBM mainframes were called "supercomputers" at one time. But that's a
whole nutha story.)

So the single significant feature of "a mainframe" in my glossary is
channelized I/O.

-- R; <><

On 7/29/23 12:28, Jon Perryman wrote:

ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference
between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software.

ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the
philosophy that makes a mainframe.

ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant feature design that originated directly from
Linux or Unix. Please don't use features that originated from IBM (e.g.
databases,

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Seymour J Metz

Wrong again. When running z/OS under VM for production, multiple 3270 consoles 
is the norm.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jon 
Perryman 
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 5:04 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III 
 >  wrote:
> After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts

Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:

1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The hardware 
console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing to do with 
DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.

2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the terminal is 
defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides they need a console 
located next to the tape drives and another console next to printers, then 
DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated.

3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default for 
screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the 
screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days or 
weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III 
 wrote:

 After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the CONSOLE 
entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition) and reIPLing 
the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts, as it did on 
our old hosting environment.

I'm convinced based on the evidence that:

*The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
*The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
*The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the old 
environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for the guest
*They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual 
console at 03E1

That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the behavior 
in an unintuitive way. Now we know.

Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an odyssey 
but we got there.

And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without 
significant topic drift, at least in a while. No idea why, but that's rare here!

...phsiii

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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Jon Perryman

 > On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III 
 >  wrote:
> After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 to 0009
> linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts

Congrats Phil. Here is what you need to know:

1. z/OS has many consoles. You don't have any consoles activated. The hardware 
console is DEV(SYSCONS) in PARMLIB(CONSOL##) which has nothing to do with 
DEV(3E1) in CONSOL##.

2. DEV(SYSCONS) will stop working if a DEV(###) regardless how the terminal is 
defined (DEF CONS, DEF GRAF or ATTACH). If someone decides they need a console 
located next to the tape drives and another console next to printers, then 
DEV(SYSCONS) will no longer be automatically activated. 

3. Virtual CONSOLE DEV(###) should never be used for z/OS. The default for 
screen full with non-autoscroll messages requires a real person clear the 
screen. This VM user typically would not be logged on. It could be days or 
weeks before someone notices the message backlog.
On Saturday, July 29, 2023 at 01:24:04 PM PDT, Phil Smith III 
 wrote:  

 After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the CONSOLE 
entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition) and reIPLing 
the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts, as it did on 
our old hosting environment.

I'm convinced based on the evidence that:

*    The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
*    The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
*    The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the old 
environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for the guest
*    They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual 
console at 03E1

That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the behavior 
in an unintuitive way. Now we know.

Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an odyssey 
but we got there.

And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without 
significant topic drift, at least in a while. No idea why, but that's rare here!

...phsiii

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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

2023-07-29 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 15:22:10 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:

>  Ok, so I'm a software geek, I admit it.  But there are tasks for 
> which I like PL/1, or VBA, or REXX (or ooRexx), and so on.
>
>"Need"?  Maybe not absolutely must have, but they're sure helpful.
>
I thought PL/1 is "The only programming language you'll ever need."

However, COBOL can be coded using everyday, non-specialized English
vocabulary such as "LEVEL 77".


>-Original Message-
>From:  Jon Perryman
>Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 12:28
>
>The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. 
>Linux will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I 
>suspect it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but I 
>suspect that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the definition 
>of MAINFRAME?
> 
How does performance  of MVS 3.8 on  Hercules compare with the original 
hardware?

...
>ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 fundamental difference between a PDS/e and a Unix 
>filesystem. 
>
Cross-directory links and symbolic links

Remember that CKD DASD, VSAM, and PDSE are all emulated nowadays
on FBA disks.

 ...
>The story falsely claims Cobol is an ancient language. Big data, clustering 
>and more are hidden by z/OS. VSAM is simple and efficient to use in Cobol but 
>Linux programmers must use databases for the same purpose. 

What;s wrong with a database?  Isn't VSAM just a z-peculiar instance of a 
database.


There should be an "advocacy" sub-list.  Whom are you trying to convert?

-- 
gil

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Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

2023-07-29 Thread Phil Smith III

Gil asked about Hansen's Law. Different Hansen-this is a guy we worked with. 

We also had Weald's Corollary:
Even when it isn't a certificate issue, it's a certificate issue.


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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

2023-07-29 Thread Phil Smith III

After changing the virtual console address from 03E1 (matching the CONSOLE 
entry in CONSOLxx) to 0009 (matching no z/OS console definition) and reIPLing 
the guest, the linemode output went to SECUSER without artifacts, as it did on 
our old hosting environment.

I'm convinced based on the evidence that:

*   The old environment had the virtual console at 0009
*   The old environment had the z/OS CONSOLE definition at 03E1
*   The folks who ported our system over for us had logon access to the old 
environment, but did NOT have access to the VM directory entry for the guest
*   They thus made the logically correct decision to define the virtual 
console at 03E1


That was the "right thing to do", except it turned out to change the behavior 
in an unintuitive way. Now we know.

Thanks 10**6 for all the thoughts and advice here! It was a bit of an odyssey 
but we got there.

And this might be due an IBM-MAIN award for the longest thread without 
significant topic drift, at least in a while. No idea why, but that's rare here!

...phsiii


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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

2023-07-29 Thread Bob Bridges

Many interesting points here, and even if I were interested in contradicting 
them I'm too ignorant of hardware to attempt it.  But I will at least say that 
I'm very, very glad to have multiple algorithmic languages to write in, not 
just COBOL.  I reluctantly admit that COBOL has important strengths 
("reluctant" only because I have a deep dislike of verbosity in coding), but 
before I learned COBOL I already was using at least four other languages and 
after I (mostly) stopped using it I tacked on some more.  Ok, so I'm a software 
geek, I admit it.  But there are tasks for which I like PL/1, or VBA, or REXX 
(or ooRexx), and so on.

"Need"?  Maybe not absolutely must have, but they're sure helpful.

Again, not saying I disagree.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Somehow or other an extraordinary idea has arisen that the disbelievers in 
miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles accept 
them only in connection with some dogma. The fact is quite the other way. The 
believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have 
evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) 
because they have a doctrine against them.  -G.K. Chesterton, _Orthodoxy_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jon 
Perryman
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 12:28

Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article is 
complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing to do 
with reality. Can anyone prove me wrong? 
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/.
 

The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. Linux 
will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I suspect 
it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but I suspect 
that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the definition of 
MAINFRAME?

1. CPU does not make a mainframe: The smallest IBM z16 (39 user cores of the 64 
cores) is the same as an AMD Ryzen 4.2Ghz CPU (64 user cores of 64 cores). The 
largest IBM z16 (200 user cores of the 256 cores) is the same as 4 AMD Ryzen 
CPU on 1 motherboard (256 user cores of the 256 cores). Both are CISC CPU (AMD 
uses X86 instructions versus IBM z instructions). IBM Telum (5.2Ghz) has a 
slightly faster clock than AMD Ryzen (4.2Ghz) but is offset by the 25% extra 
user cores. IBM z16 has 4 motherboards for 16 CPU and the same AMD Ryzen would 
need 1 motherboard for 4 CPU. 

2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are also 
on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other hardware 
(e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 1,600 PCIe 
slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and more. 
Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if there was 
enough customer demand.

3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it mainframe 
Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of every z16 
hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to build the 
Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in Linux.

4. Software does not make a mainframe. IBM sells DB2 for Linux and DB2 for 
z/OS. DB2 for Linux runs on all hardware including z16. With Linux, you can 
still run DB2 on z16 but large customers choose DB2 for z/OS. 

ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference 
between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software. 

ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the 
philosophy that makes a mainframe.

Despite the story's false claims for z/OS relevance, it is ignorance in the 
Linux community that makes IBM z/OS relevant. Specifically, it's the lack of 
design in Linux. Consider DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS which are the same 
product both from IBM and available on an IBM z16. Linux people tell you they 
provide the same results, but they ignore the intrinsic capabilities of z/OS 
design. DB2 for Linux supports high availability and large databases but it 
requires knowledge of big data solutions, Linux clustering solutions and more. 
Add a computer to the cluster and you must replicate the master disk. Take a 
computer offline from the cluster, then it must re-sync or replicate the master 
disk. DB2 on z/OS does not experience these problems because of z/OS shared 
dasd and dasd mirroring.  

ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant feature design that originated directly from 
Linux or Unix. Please don't use features that originated from IBM (e.g. 
databases, SQL, HTML, Cloud and more). 

Brilliant feature design exposes very little. For instance, does anyone know 
the problems solved by z/OS shared dasd and dasd mirroring. Linux people on the 
other hand can easily name those problems solved if you mention

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

2023-07-29 Thread Tom Brennan


Where does "1,600 PCIe slots" come from?

On 7/29/2023 9:28 AM, Jon Perryman wrote:

2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are also 
on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other hardware 
(e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 1,600 PCIe 
slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and more. 
Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if there was 
enough customer demand.

3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it mainframe 
Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of every z16 
hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to build the 
Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in Linux.


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Re: Inquiry about extracting and counting msgid from operlog using sort program

2023-07-29 Thread Jon Perryman

 > On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 05:25:49 AM PDT, Jason Cai 
 >  wrote:
> The first question is about how to monitor and alert the system issues.

Hi Jason,

I don't think anyone analyzes messages on a daily/weekly/monthly basis because 
it is impractical. The majority of the thousands of unique message IDs (IBM and 
vendor) are rarely displayed. For instance, how often do you see JES2 
checkpoint delay?

Important messages do not scroll automatically off the operator screen and most 
automation products can detect non-scrollable messages. Write a rule or trap 
for non-scroll messages. In your situation, you have 3 scenarios to handle. 1. 
Messages to alert sysprogs, 2. Messages sysprogs want to ignore, 3. Messages 
that need to be placed into 1 or 2. For 3, your automation product can create a 
list to be reviewed. You should also consider whether sysprogs should be 
alerted to unclassed messages. 

As a new automation sysprog, I recommend that you watch for changed, added and 
deleted messages during upgrades and PTF apply. IBM and all reputable vendors 
provide this list thru SMP/E hold data and upgrade documentation. You need to 
review these messages to see if automation should be changed.

On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 05:25:49 AM PDT, Jason Cai 
 wrote:  

 Dear Max

I am writing to you regarding two questions that I have.

The first question is about how to monitor and alert the system issues. We can 
monitor most of the issues and send alerts to our phones. However, when we 
cannot provide a complete list of msgids to the monitoring system, some 
critical alerts may be missed. How can we minimize the missing of critical 
alerts and also reduce the false alarms? This is our biggest challenge. We want 
to analyze the operlog every day to find out if there are any potential risks 
in the system and also to locate the problem when it occurs. I wonder how your 
shop handles this situation.

The second question is a simplified one. Can dfsort delete the last word if the 
first position is M and the last word is a number?

I appreciate your time and attention.

Sincerely,
Jason Cai

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Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

2023-07-29 Thread Jon Perryman

ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference
between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software.

ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the
philosophy that makes a mainframe.

ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant feature design that originated directly from
Linux or Unix. Please don't use features that originated from IBM (e.g.
databases, SQL, HTML, Cloud and more).

ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant unnoticed Linux feature. Name several brilliant
unnoticed z/OS features.

The story claims Linux feature design is similar to z/OS feature design. For
example, the story claims Unix filesystems provide the same functionality as
z/OS datasets. A filesystem is the equivalent of one PDS/e (even in Linux). In
fact, z/OS Unix filesystems were built from PDS/e functionality. A filesystem
is a container file containing the files in a Unix filesystem. You may have a
filesystem using 10 disks but that's not any different than a single z/OS PDS/e
file with 10 full disk extents. Like PDS/e members, files in a filesystem are
randomly placed in the filesystem.

ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 fundamental difference between a PDS/e and a Unix
filesystem.

ASK YOURSELF: Name the z/OS Unix feature that sort of fixes the fundamental
design flaw with Unix filesystems just described?

I suspect most people won't think about each user having a unique filesystem
using automount to make their filesystem available. Typical Unix uses one file
system with all users having directories in the /user directory. Th

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

2023-07-29 Thread billogden

>From:Seymour J Metz 
>Yep, "Model 1 displays 480 characters (12 rows of 40 characters)."
>Did you have keyboard issues?

My memory of those ancient history days (early 70s) simply fails too much. I
seem to remember "something" simple we did with the keyboard, but the
details have vanished. (And I am probably confusing it with the 2260
keyboards from a few years earlier!)

Bill Ogden

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Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

2023-07-29 Thread Colin Paice

Please paste the messages you get.
You can configure an ATTLS  traceI tend to use TRACE(2)
This can be configured in TTLSGroupAction TTLSEnvironmentAction and
TTLSConnectionAction


If syslogd is not running I get messages on the system log
EZD1286I TTLS Error GRPID: 0007 ENVID: 0002 CONNID: 0036
LOCAL: 10.1.1.2..1032 REMOTE: 10.1.0.2..25 JOBNAME: CSSMTP USERID:
START1 RULE: CSSMTPRule  RC:  417 Initial Handshake 
005011421D10 

If syslogd is running I get messages in ( for me) /var/log

My (badly configured ) syslog puts messages in
TCPIPinfo.2023.07.29
TCPIPerr.2023.07.29
TCPIPdebug.2023.07.29
TCPIP.2023.07.29

Please feel free to contact me offline

Colin

On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 at 02:56, Brian Westerman 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Has anyone got working directions for setting up AT-TLS with the CSSMTP
> server.  I found the IBM manual Steps for using Transport Layer Security
> for CSSMTP, and went through all of the steps, but I still get stuck when I
> change secure=Yes in CSSMTP on a RC=8 (initial handshake) error with the
> external smtp server.
>
> I get the messages to the point where the STARTTLS command happens, but
> then the RC=8 failure on initial handshake.
>
> Any detailed pointers on what could be missing.
>
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Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

PDS/e [was: Definition of mainframe?]

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

Re: Preferred FTP Client for Windows

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

Re: speaking of filesystems [was: Definition of mainframe?]

Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

of COBOL and other languages [was: Definition of mainframe?]

bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

speaking of filesystems [was: Definition of mainframe?]

Linux and z/OS and stuff [was: Definition of mainframe?]

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

Re: Ignorant z/OS question

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

Re: Inquiry about extracting and counting msgid from operlog using sort program

Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica

Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives

Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup

34 matches

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