Re: Images rather than etext

[Farley, Peter]

That first one I did read as a pre-teen in the "If" magazine publication (RIP; 
a fabulous magazine that enlarged my imagination).  My parents were 
subscribers, and I became one too when I began to earn enough to fund my own 
hobbies.

The second one I do not think I ever saw before.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 8:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

EXTERNAL EMAIL

There's also 
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power__;!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!MKWlzrFJ_Tz_g6khOaoOegDkPH8UJEVHQ1DoEMkAyeyZqmdnpyyobqYT35Om3gLs75-0dpHY9uTFFcfiB7JIiw$
 > and 
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mpoweruk.com/coal.htm__;!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!MKWlzrFJ_Tz_g6khOaoOegDkPH8UJEVHQ1DoEMkAyeyZqmdnpyyobqYT35Om3gLs75-0dpHY9uTFFccpPaa8Xw$
 >


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!MKWlzrFJ_Tz_g6khOaoOegDkPH8UJEVHQ1DoEMkAyeyZqmdnpyyobqYT35Om3gLs75-0dpHY9uTFFcccFB-o-A$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Farley, Peter [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

Thanks for that Asimov reference.  That's one of his books I have not read (and 
there are many, I sadly admit; so many books, so little time . . .) but I will 
look for that one.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

ObHolmesGinsbookDevice "International icons, equally unintelligible in every 
language"


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 5:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

The problem for many of us (well, at least for me and my significant other) is 
that their little "icons" are often anything but intuitive unless you are 
already steeped in that culture.

One of the required management tools in use here (third party, mostly not 
in-house developed) requires you to use an on-page "back" button because the 
browser "back" button takes you back to the login page.  <*Doh*>

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 4:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

On 2023-04-17 16:30 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
> That's one of the points of a GUI: you shouldn't have to explain it.
> In fact, there's a saying I'm a firm believer in:
> "A GUI is like a joke: if you have to explain it, it's not very good."

My favorite UX book for web apps has the title "Don't Make Me Think!"

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Don Leahy]

I was skeptical about option 3.4 when it first came out.  I knew all of
*my* data set names and I was a good typist.   I cannot live without a data
set list manager now.

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 16:22 Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Reminds me of a coworker at an insurance company in Ohio I worked at a
> couple times.  He'd write down a list of user IDs on a scrap of paper, walk
> the paper back to my desk and ask me to investigate some aspect of them.
> As this kept happening, I started asking him why he didn't just forward the
> original email rather than writing down the IDs and then making me enter
> them into my terminal again.  I think it was just his habit.
>
> Finally I put my foot now:  Not accepting any more scraps of paper.  Send
> me the email!  He did it, too.  Maybe he was just old-fashioned.  Maybe he
> still is.
>
> When I first started reading the reasons we should all adopt Windows, two
> of the reasons didn't impress me.  One was the "consistent user
> interface".  I'd been using WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, Harvard Graphics etc,
> and of course the mainframe, and I didn't see any difficulty about using
>  for END on one and  for "find again" in another.  I still don't.
> Consistent interface is fine, but it's not a necessity in my view.
>
> The other reason was the ability to cut and paste between different
> applications.  I was contemptuous:  How hard does it have to be to type out
> a phone number a second time?  Big deal.  Boy, was I wrong about that!
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* In Scripture the visitation of an angel is always alarming; it has to
> begin by saying "Fear not".  The Victorian angel looks as if it were going
> to say "There, there".  -C S Lewis, from a preface to _The Screwtape
> Letters_ */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 12:57
>
> I've been a link down that chain, and irritated when users provided
> diagnostics as image screenshots rather than text.  The emulator popular
> with them provided image as default; text as an option, but the setup was
> obscure.
>
> --
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>

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Seymour J Metz]

There's also <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power> and 
<https://www.mpoweruk.com/coal.htm>


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Farley, Peter [031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

Thanks for that Asimov reference.  That's one of his books I have not read (and 
there are many, I sadly admit; so many books, so little time . . .) but I will 
look for that one.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

ObHolmesGinsbookDevice "International icons, equally unintelligible in every 
language"


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 5:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

The problem for many of us (well, at least for me and my significant other) is 
that their little "icons" are often anything but intuitive unless you are 
already steeped in that culture.

One of the required management tools in use here (third party, mostly not 
in-house developed) requires you to use an on-page "back" button because the 
browser "back" button takes you back to the login page.  <*Doh*>

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 4:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

On 2023-04-17 16:30 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
> That's one of the points of a GUI: you shouldn't have to explain it.
> In fact, there's a saying I'm a firm believer in:
> "A GUI is like a joke: if you have to explain it, it's not very good."

My favorite UX book for web apps has the title "Don't Make Me Think!"

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Asimov book [was: RE: Images rather than etext]

[Farley, Peter]

I just used search term "Holmes Ginsbook Device" (without the quotes, but note 
spaces between words).  First hit returned was the Asimov book.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 22:35:07 +, Farley, Peter wrote:

>Thanks for that Asimov reference.  That's one of his books I have not read 
>(and there are many, I sadly admit; so many books, so little time . . .) but I 
>will look for that one.
>
Thanks.  I needed to add "Asimov" to the search keys, else Google tries to send 
me to such as:


>-Original Message-
>From: Seymour J Metz
>Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:06 PM
>
>ObHolmesGinsbookDevice "International icons, equally unintelligible in every 
>language"

--


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Re: Images rather than etext

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 22:35:07 +, Farley, Peter wrote:

>Thanks for that Asimov reference.  That's one of his books I have not read 
>(and there are many, I sadly admit; so many books, so little time . . .) but I 
>will look for that one.
>
Thanks.  I needed to add "Asimov" to the search keys, else Google tries to send 
me to such as:



>-Original Message-
>From: Seymour J Metz
>Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:06 PM
>
>ObHolmesGinsbookDevice "International icons, equally unintelligible in every 
>language"

-- 
gil

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 21:35:13 +, Farley, Peter wrote:
>
>One of the required management tools in use here (third party, mostly not 
>in-house developed) requires you to use an on-page "back" button because the 
>browser "back" button takes you back to the login page.  <*Doh*>
> 
One site, which I like to script, responds to a URL with invalid path by
returning its home page (which is OK) with status 200 (which is not OK.)

I emailed a courteous complaint to the site owner, who explained that
it was created by a contractor, out of his control.  so I scan returned
resources for the home page eyecatcher and treat that as an error.

I apologized for fetching a couple dozen pages daily, with concurrent
requests.  He said that's OK; he tolerates far worse abusers.

His httpd ls less forgiving: I must issue my requests 0.3 seconds apart
(empirical) or I get errors.

-- 
gil

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Farley, Peter]

Thanks for that Asimov reference.  That's one of his books I have not read (and 
there are many, I sadly admit; so many books, so little time . . .) but I will 
look for that one.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 6:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

ObHolmesGinsbookDevice "International icons, equally unintelligible in every 
language"


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 5:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

The problem for many of us (well, at least for me and my significant other) is 
that their little "icons" are often anything but intuitive unless you are 
already steeped in that culture.

One of the required management tools in use here (third party, mostly not 
in-house developed) requires you to use an on-page "back" button because the 
browser "back" button takes you back to the login page.  <*Doh*>

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 4:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

On 2023-04-17 16:30 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
> That's one of the points of a GUI: you shouldn't have to explain it.
> In fact, there's a saying I'm a firm believer in:
> "A GUI is like a joke: if you have to explain it, it's not very good."

My favorite UX book for web apps has the title "Don't Make Me Think!"

--

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Seymour J Metz]

ObHolmesGinsbookDevice "International icons, equally unintelligible in every 
language"


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 5:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

The problem for many of us (well, at least for me and my significant other) is 
that their little "icons" are often anything but intuitive unless you are 
already steeped in that culture.

One of the required management tools in use here (third party, mostly not 
in-house developed) requires you to use an on-page "back" button because the 
browser "back" button takes you back to the login page.  <*Doh*>

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 4:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

On 2023-04-17 16:30 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
> That's one of the points of a GUI: you shouldn't have to explain it.
> In fact, there's a saying I'm a firm believer in:
> "A GUI is like a joke: if you have to explain it, it's not very good."

My favorite UX book for web apps has the title "Don't Make Me Think!"

--


This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
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the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
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Re: Images rather than etext

[Farley, Peter]

The problem for many of us (well, at least for me and my significant other) is 
that their little "icons" are often anything but intuitive unless you are 
already steeped in that culture.

One of the required management tools in use here (third party, mostly not 
in-house developed) requires you to use an on-page "back" button because the 
browser "back" button takes you back to the login page.  <*Doh*>

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gord Tomlin
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 4:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Images rather than etext

On 2023-04-17 16:30 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
> That's one of the points of a GUI: you shouldn't have to explain it. 
> In fact, there's a saying I'm a firm believer in:
> "A GUI is like a joke: if you have to explain it, it's not very good."

My favorite UX book for web apps has the title "Don't Make Me Think!"

--


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and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
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in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
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Re: Images rather than etext

[Gord Tomlin]

On 2023-04-17 16:30 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:

That's one of the points of a GUI: you shouldn't have to explain it. In
fact, there's a saying I'm a firm believer in:
"A GUI is like a joke: if you have to explain it, it's not very good."


My favorite UX book for web apps has the title "Don't Make Me Think!"

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:30:14 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
>
>I'm a keyboard guy, like most folks here, but have to disagree: UI
>consistency is a huge productivity enhancer for some of us. The fact that
>"modern" web pages often do NOT follow ~20 years of web conventions is very
>irritating. Heck, even Microsoft can't follow its own standards half the
>time-look at Teams, where navigation is bizarre and doesn't follow any of
>the MDI rules.
> 
And too many IBM doc pages where the Back control doesn't mean back
(at least you have to click it twice.)

Once I attended a meeting with our web design group:

"Your page will look like this.  And the printable version like this."

"The printable page seems to contain all the information.  Why not omit the 
other?"

"Because on the printable page you have to click the "Back" button to get back!"

My reaction to that got me a reprimand.

-- 
gil

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:22:40 -0400, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>...
>Finally I put my foot now:  Not accepting any more scraps of paper.  Send me 
>the email!  He did it, too.  Maybe he was just old-fashioned.  Maybe he still 
>is.
>
You're lucky.  He might have scanned the scraps of paper and emailed you TIFFs.

>When I first started reading the reasons we should all adopt Windows, two of 
>the reasons didn't impress me.  One was the "consistent user interface".  I'd 
>been using WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, Harvard Graphics etc, and of course the 
>mainframe, and I didn't see any difficulty about using  for END on one 
>and  for "find again" in another.  I still don't.  Consistent interface is 
>fine, but it's not a necessity in my view.
> 
I'm mixed:  I once mapped my 3270 PF keypad to resemble the inverted "T" on many
desktop keyboards while having little sympathy for those who slavishly mapped 
ENTER
to "Next Line" and "Right Ctl" to enter, etc.

And I hated that thing that tried to make END PF12 instead of PF3, etc.  "CUA"? 
 STTL.

And I'm thoroughly that on my desktop system Ctl-C continues to mean SIGINT
and Copy Selection is Meta-C.

>The other reason was the ability to cut and paste between different 
>applications.  I was contemptuous:  How hard does it have to be to type out a 
>phone number a second time?  Big deal.  Boy, was I wrong about that!
>
But a URL?

-- 
gil

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Re: Images rather than etext

[Phil Smith III]

Bob Bridges wrote, in part:
>When I first started reading the reasons we should all adopt Windows,
>two of the reasons didn't impress me. One was the "consistent user
>interface". I'd been using WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, Harvard Graphics
>etc, and of course the mainframe, and I didn't see any difficulty
>about using  for END on one and  for "find again" in another.
>I still don't. Consistent interface is fine, but it's not a necessity
>in my view.

I'm a keyboard guy, like most folks here, but have to disagree: UI
consistency is a huge productivity enhancer for some of us. The fact that
"modern" web pages often do NOT follow ~20 years of web conventions is very
irritating. Heck, even Microsoft can't follow its own standards half the
time-look at Teams, where navigation is bizarre and doesn't follow any of
the MDI rules.

That's one of the points of a GUI: you shouldn't have to explain it. In
fact, there's a saying I'm a firm believer in:
"A GUI is like a joke: if you have to explain it, it's not very good."

I could show you examples from companies I might or might not work for that
are just appalling-a large part of every meeting where one is used comprises
people suggesting things that "might work" to do the very basic task the
person driving the screen is attempting.


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Images rather than etext

[Bob Bridges]

Reminds me of a coworker at an insurance company in Ohio I worked at a couple 
times.  He'd write down a list of user IDs on a scrap of paper, walk the paper 
back to my desk and ask me to investigate some aspect of them.  As this kept 
happening, I started asking him why he didn't just forward the original email 
rather than writing down the IDs and then making me enter them into my terminal 
again.  I think it was just his habit.

Finally I put my foot now:  Not accepting any more scraps of paper.  Send me 
the email!  He did it, too.  Maybe he was just old-fashioned.  Maybe he still 
is.

When I first started reading the reasons we should all adopt Windows, two of 
the reasons didn't impress me.  One was the "consistent user interface".  I'd 
been using WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, Harvard Graphics etc, and of course the 
mainframe, and I didn't see any difficulty about using  for END on one and 
 for "find again" in another.  I still don't.  Consistent interface is 
fine, but it's not a necessity in my view.

The other reason was the ability to cut and paste between different 
applications.  I was contemptuous:  How hard does it have to be to type out a 
phone number a second time?  Big deal.  Boy, was I wrong about that!

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* In Scripture the visitation of an angel is always alarming; it has to begin 
by saying "Fear not".  The Victorian angel looks as if it were going to say 
"There, there".  -C S Lewis, from a preface to _The Screwtape Letters_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2023 12:57

I've been a link down that chain, and irritated when users provided diagnostics 
as image screenshots rather than text.  The emulator popular with them provided 
image as default; text as an option, but the setup was obscure.

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