Re: Holy Moly ...

[Gord Tomlin]

On 2022-02-16 22:21 PM, Lance D. Jackson wrote:

I thought you guys were asked to take this offline?


+1. Enough is enough.

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Lance D. Jackson]

I thought you guys were asked to take this offline?
> On 16 February 2022 19:41 Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
>  
> Lol, earnings and profits are the same. Do you even know what EBITDA is?
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 7:32 PM, Joe Monk  
> wrote:
> 
> " Profits are what drives stock prices"...
> 
> Jeebus. Earnings, not profit, are what drives stock prices. Thats why we
> have EBITDA...
> 
> Joe
> 
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 6:17 PM David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> > On 16/2/22 10:22 pm, Bill Johnson wrote:
> > > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> > cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> > has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> > stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> > real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> > >
> > Tesla had a negative cash flow for years. We live in a crazy world. I
> > purchased 4 bitcoins 10 years ago for $100 and now I'm checking the
> > price several times a day and agonizing over when to sell!
> >
> >
> > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> > >
> > > ________
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> > >
> > > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> > stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> > stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> > generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> > growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> > nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> > executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> > talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> > Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> > approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> > where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> > >
> > > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> > effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> > cash flow, not profits.
> > >
> > > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> > that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> > behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> > >
> > > Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not
> > confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age
> > discrimination lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it
> > to maximize profits since profits make the stock price go up and the
> > executives and shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be
> > positive or negative.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external
> > constraints, wages don't i

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Profits and earnings are often used interchangeably


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 7:32 PM, Joe Monk  wrote:

" Profits are what drives stock prices"...

Jeebus. Earnings, not profit, are what drives stock prices. Thats why we
have EBITDA...

Joe

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 6:17 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 16/2/22 10:22 pm, Bill Johnson wrote:
> > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> >
> Tesla had a negative cash flow for years. We live in a crazy world. I
> purchased 4 bitcoins 10 years ago for $100 and now I'm checking the
> price several times a day and agonizing over when to sell!
>
>
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [00000047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> >
> > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> cash flow, not profits.
> >
> > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not
> confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age
> discrimination lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it
> to maximize profits since profits make the stock price go up and the
> executives and shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be
> positive or negative.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external
> constraints, wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in
> capitalism is to not give raises unless it would cost you more for the
> employee to leave..
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages &
> health care) employees and hiring younger lower 

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Lol, earnings and profits are the same. Do you even know what EBITDA is?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 7:32 PM, Joe Monk  wrote:

" Profits are what drives stock prices"...

Jeebus. Earnings, not profit, are what drives stock prices. Thats why we
have EBITDA...

Joe

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 6:17 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 16/2/22 10:22 pm, Bill Johnson wrote:
> > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> >
> Tesla had a negative cash flow for years. We live in a crazy world. I
> purchased 4 bitcoins 10 years ago for $100 and now I'm checking the
> price several times a day and agonizing over when to sell!
>
>
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [00000047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> >
> > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> cash flow, not profits.
> >
> > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not
> confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age
> discrimination lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it
> to maximize profits since profits make the stock price go up and the
> executives and shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be
> positive or negative.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external
> constraints, wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in
> capitalism is to not give raises unless it would cost you more for the
> employee to leave..
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages &
> health care) employees and hi

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Nope. The very definition of profit is this. a financial gain, especially the 
difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, 
or producing something. Loss isn’t a financial gain.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 7:30 PM, Joe Monk  wrote:

Mmm hmmm so, if the costs exceed the profit, then thats negative
profit, regardless of the name.

Joe

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 5:38 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Called a loss. In fact loss leader. Not a profit leader. Yes, I spent lots
> of time in retail.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 4:34 PM, Joe Monk 
> wrote:
>
> Of course profits can be negative... Have you never heard of a loss leader?
> An item sold below cost generates a negative profit.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022, 09:03 Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting.
> > You’re out of your league.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive
> > changes in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.
> >
> > I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has
> > nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> > cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash
> flow
> > has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> > stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is
> a
> > real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> > stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> > stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> > generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> > growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> > nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> > executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> > talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> > Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> > approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right
> around
> > where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in
> 22.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> >
> > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> > effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> > cash flow, not profits.
> >
> > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> > that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Joe Monk]

" Profits are what drives stock prices"...

Jeebus. Earnings, not profit, are what drives stock prices. Thats why we
have EBITDA...

Joe

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 6:17 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 16/2/22 10:22 pm, Bill Johnson wrote:
> > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> >
> Tesla had a negative cash flow for years. We live in a crazy world. I
> purchased 4 bitcoins 10 years ago for $100 and now I'm checking the
> price several times a day and agonizing over when to sell!
>
>
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [00000047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> >
> > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> cash flow, not profits.
> >
> > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not
> confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age
> discrimination lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it
> to maximize profits since profits make the stock price go up and the
> executives and shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be
> positive or negative.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
> >
> > You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external
> constraints, wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in
> capitalism is to not give raises unless it would cost you more for the
> employee to leave..
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages &
> health care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard
> capitalism.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
&

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Companies charge less than cost all the time in America. When I worked in 
retail, we would put shave cream on sale below cost, knowing that most shaving 
cream buyers would also buy blades, razors, and face moisturizers at inflated 
prices. Had a whole group dedicated to what we called “Market Basket Analysis”. 
Huge DB2 system. Another regular loss leader was Coke or Pepsi products.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 6:57 PM, Mike Schwab  
wrote:

Under WTO rules, illegal to charge less for a product than its actual cost.

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 11:38 PM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Called a loss. In fact loss leader. Not a profit leader. Yes, I spent lots of 
> time in retail.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 4:34 PM, Joe Monk  
> wrote:
>
> Of course profits can be negative... Have you never heard of a loss leader?
> An item sold below cost generates a negative profit.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022, 09:03 Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting.
> > You’re out of your league.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive
> > changes in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.
> >
> > I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has
> > nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> > cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> > has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> > stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> > real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> > stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> > stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> > generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> > growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> > nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> > executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> > talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> > Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> > approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> > where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> >
> > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> > effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> > cash flow, not profits.
> >
> > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> > that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Joe Monk]

Mmm hmmm so, if the costs exceed the profit, then thats negative
profit, regardless of the name.

Joe

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 5:38 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Called a loss. In fact loss leader. Not a profit leader. Yes, I spent lots
> of time in retail.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 4:34 PM, Joe Monk 
> wrote:
>
> Of course profits can be negative... Have you never heard of a loss leader?
> An item sold below cost generates a negative profit.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022, 09:03 Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting.
> > You’re out of your league.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive
> > changes in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.
> >
> > I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has
> > nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> > cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash
> flow
> > has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> > stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is
> a
> > real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> > stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> > stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> > generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> > growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> > nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> > executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> > talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> > Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> > approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right
> around
> > where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in
> 22.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> >
> > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> > effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> > cash flow, not profits.
> >
> > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> > that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not

Re: Holy Moly ...

[David Crayford]

On 16/2/22 10:22 pm, Bill Johnson wrote:

LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE cash flow. 
They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow has been in 
the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the stock is 
significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a real thing. So is 
the housing bubble.

Tesla had a negative cash flow for years. We live in a crazy world. I 
purchased 4 bitcoins 10 years ago for $100 and now I'm checking the 
price several times a day and agonizing over when to sell!




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock prices, 
executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, mostly newer ones, 
who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative cash flow until they reach 
profitability stage and growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation 
has almost nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay 
executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. 
The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of 
S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the 
index a 5170 valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the 
index will finish in 22.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, 

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Mike Schwab]

Under WTO rules, illegal to charge less for a product than its actual cost.

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 11:38 PM Bill Johnson
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Called a loss. In fact loss leader. Not a profit leader. Yes, I spent lots of 
> time in retail.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 4:34 PM, Joe Monk  
> wrote:
>
> Of course profits can be negative... Have you never heard of a loss leader?
> An item sold below cost generates a negative profit.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022, 09:03 Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting.
> > You’re out of your league.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive
> > changes in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.
> >
> > I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has
> > nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> > cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> > has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> > stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> > real thing. So is the housing bubble.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> > stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> > stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> > generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> > growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> > nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> > executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> > talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> > Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> > approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> > where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
> >
> > Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> > effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> > cash flow, not profits.
> >
> > Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> > that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> > of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> >
> > Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not
> > confusing anything. This article 

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Called a loss. In fact loss leader. Not a profit leader. Yes, I spent lots of 
time in retail. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 4:34 PM, Joe Monk  wrote:

Of course profits can be negative... Have you never heard of a loss leader?
An item sold below cost generates a negative profit.

Joe

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022, 09:03 Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting.
> You’re out of your league.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive
> changes in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.
>
> I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has
> nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
>
> LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> real thing. So is the housing bubble.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
>
> Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
>
> Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> cash flow, not profits.
>
> Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> ____
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
>
> Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not
> confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age
> discrimination lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it
> to maximize profits since profits make the stock price go up and the
> executives and shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be
> positive or negative.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external
> constraints, wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in
> capitalism is to not give raises unless it would cost you more for the
> employee to leave..
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Joe Monk]

Of course profits can be negative... Have you never heard of a loss leader?
An item sold below cost generates a negative profit.

Joe

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022, 09:03 Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting.
> You’re out of your league.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive
> changes in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.
>
> I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has
> nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
>
> LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE
> cash flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow
> has been in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the
> stock is significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a
> real thing. So is the housing bubble.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
>
> Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives
> stock prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME
> stocks, mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which
> generates negative cash flow until they reach profitability stage and
> growth (and investment) begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost
> nothing to do with corporate profitability. In fact many companies pay
> executives in stock options not cash. You really don’t know what you’re
> talking about. The S 500 index is a factor of profits times a multiple.
> Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is estimated at $235 and
> approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 valuation right around
> where most banks and investment houses project the index will finish in 22.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.
>
> Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired
> effect. Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's
> cash flow, not profits.
>
> Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if
> that is at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> ____
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
>
> Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not
> confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age
> discrimination lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it
> to maximize profits since profits make the stock price go up and the
> executives and shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be
> positive or negative.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz 
> wrote:
>
> You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external
> constraints, wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in
> capitalism is to not give raises unless it would cost you more for the
> employee to leave..
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bob Bridges]

They could send each other emails privately, but that would kind of miss the 
point, wouldn't it?  Their barbs are ostensibly aimed at each other, but we're 
the intended audience.  Without the audience this would quickly die away.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Winning is a habit.  Unfortunately, so is losing.  -Vince Lombardi */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 10:04

Would you two take your spitting match someplace off IBM-main?  The rest of us 
don't want to hear it.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:03 AM

Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting. You’re 
out of your league. 

--- On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz  
wrote:
Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive changes 
in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has 
nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.


From: Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM

LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE cash 
flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow has been 
in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the stock is 
significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a real thing. 
So is the housing bubble.

--- On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  
wrote:
Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.


From: Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock 
prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, 
mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative 
cash flow until they reach profitability stage and growth (and investment) 
begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost nothing to do with corporate 
profitability. In fact many companies pay executives in stock options not cash. 
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The S 500 index is a factor 
of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is 
estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 
valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the index 
will finish in 22.

--- On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  
wrote:
That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


From: Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.

--- On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  
wrote:
You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


From: Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.

--- On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  
wrote:
No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


From: Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Holy Moly ...

[Robert Prins]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 at 15:04, Pommier, Rex  wrote:

> Would you two take your spitting match someplace off IBM-main?  The rest
> of us don't want to hear it.
>

And can you stop adding the whole fecking

discussion to your 1-line post?
-- 
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
The hitchhiking grandfather 
Some REXX code for use on z/OS


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Holy Moly ...

[Pommier, Rex]

Would you two take your spitting match someplace off IBM-main?  The rest of us 
don't want to hear it.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:03 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting. You’re 
out of your league. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive changes 
in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has 
nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!5KXt758Xm6HFeA8BVCGJzkkwXVO4fi1JXSVNrRmXb7gnK8cKbgTWN6Tak9DeYOnf_A$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE cash 
flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow has been 
in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the stock is 
significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a real thing. 
So is the housing bubble.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!5KXt758Xm6HFeA8BVCGJzkkwXVO4fi1JXSVNrRmXb7gnK8cKbgTWN6Tak9DeYOnf_A$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock 
prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, 
mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative 
cash flow until they reach profitability stage and growth (and investment) 
begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost nothing to do with corporate 
profitability. In fact many companies pay executives in stock options not cash. 
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The S 500 index is a factor 
of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is 
estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 
valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the index 
will finish in 22.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!5KXt758Xm6HFeA8BVCGJzkkwXVO4fi1JXSVNrRmXb7gnK8cKbgTWN6Tak9DeYOnf_A$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!5KXt758Xm6HFeA8BVCGJzkkwXVO4fi1JXSVNrRmXb7gnK8cKbgTWN6Tak9DeYOnf_A$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Profits can’t be negative unless the company is fraudulently reporting. You’re 
out of your league. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:46 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive changes 
in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has 
nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE cash 
flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow has been 
in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the stock is 
significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a real thing. 
So is the housing bubble.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock 
prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, 
mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative 
cash flow until they reach profitability stage and growth (and investment) 
begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost nothing to do with corporate 
profitability. In fact many companies pay executives in stock options not cash. 
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The S 500 index is a factor 
of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is 
estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 
valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the index 
will finish in 22.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

Whoosh! What that means is that there are plenty of examples of massive changes 
in stock prices that had nothing to do with profitability.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up cash flow being negative; that has 
nothing to do with the issue. And, yes, pprofits can also be negative.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE cash 
flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow has been 
in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the stock is 
significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a real thing. 
So is the housing bubble.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock 
prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, 
mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative 
cash flow until they reach profitability stage and growth (and investment) 
begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost nothing to do with corporate 
profitability. In fact many companies pay executives in stock options not cash. 
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The S 500 index is a factor 
of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is 
estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 
valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the index 
will finish in 22.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

++
I've never apologized for looking things up, and never will, just as I'll never 
apologize for paranoia in backup strategies.

Sometimes even when you've known the details for a long time it pays to check 
the manual for changes. BTST,GTTS.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 10:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

IMHO, having to look something up in the manual is just a routine part of the 
job -- not something to apologize for.  I remember starting a contract for an 
insurance company in Ohio and being told, after I'd been there a month or two, 
that what got me hired was that during the interview I said "I don't do that 
often enough to tell you off-hand; I'd have to look it up".  I guess they had 
their BS-o-meter turned up and liked that answer better than someone attempting 
to bluff-guess.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* We should take care not to make the intellect our god;  it has, of course, 
powerful muscles, but no personality.  -Albert Einstein */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 21:47

I have a useful knowledge of PERL, Python, BASH scripting, Java, and C/C++.
I do need to look things up when writing in them mainly because I'm not as 
interested anymore. I'm lazily reading about RUST right now.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

LOLOLOLOL, what does that even mean? Uber is a prime example of NEGATIVE cash 
flow. They’ve NEVER turned a profit to date & their negative cash flow has been 
in the billions since they went public in 2019. Explains why the stock is 
significantly below their IPO price. And the internet bubble is a real thing. 
So is the housing bubble. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, February 16, 2022, 9:15 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock 
prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, 
mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative 
cash flow until they reach profitability stage and growth (and investment) 
begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost nothing to do with corporate 
profitability. In fact many companies pay executives in stock options not cash. 
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The S 500 index is a factor 
of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is 
estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 
valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the index 
will finish in 22.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any m

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

Yeah, and the dot com crash never happened.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock 
prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, 
mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative 
cash flow until they reach profitability stage and growth (and investment) 
begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost nothing to do with corporate 
profitability. In fact many companies pay executives in stock options not cash. 
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The S 500 index is a factor 
of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is 
estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 
valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the index 
will finish in 22.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Mo

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Richards, Robert B. (CTR)]

Thanks Shmuel! 

The bones have healed nicely but the pandemic wreaked havoc on rehab. I did my 
best alone, but I doubt that I'll be able to squat ever again unless knee 
surgery is in my future (which may happen). 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 9:04 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Ouch! I hope your leg healed well.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Richards, Robert B. (CTR) [01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 7:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Patrick,

I broke two bones in my right leg right below my knee on Thanksgiving 2019. 
That gave me a four month head start on teleworking compared to the rest of 
you. It also changed my outlook about retiring. No more issues with the 
commute, no getting up at 3:30am to beat the heavy commute traffic to DC on 
I-95, no paying ridiculous out of pocket $$$ for EZPASS when heavy traffic 
shows up even at 4:30am.

As long as teleworking remains in force, I do not intend to even consider 
retiring. I enjoy what we do for a living. Believe it or not,  z/OSMF has 
definitely captured my interest of late, especially using the workflow and 
software management aspects. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Pass on the occasional "Atta Boy", keep sending a paycheck twice a month, allow 
me to take my vacation days and I am good to go for the foreseeable future! 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
patrickfalcone7
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 4:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Go Bob go. I use to believe I would be retired by now, I'm 60+. I got to this 
point and I like the continuing challenges. I dont want to necessarily retire, 
maybe lessen the load a bit. This has been my life and I want to stay active as 
long as I can contribute productively. Personally, I think IBM is missing, has 
missed and will continue to miss, a great opportunity due to their marketing 
strategies that either miss the mark or are not mainstream enough to catch the 
interest of younger people. If this continues I feel the mainframe MVS 
environment will continue to shed its value to the big business guys and they 
will eventually explore other alternatives as they are all probably doing now 
as part of their own due diligence. If you think about it, and I think this 
good, the mainframe environment now offers, please correct me, the most 
extensively horizontal capable environment with regard to software available. 
That in itself positions it to be more of a one stop for everything with 
potentially less *wires* to connect to and that has to be a major advantage as 
well.Soapbox on: every project I'm on gets bogged down with network - and thats 
just the way it is but ask me if I like that part :off Soapbox.IBM? You're 
there! Fix the marketing part, maybe I can help. Might take some time but we'll 
get there.To people I am friends with on list I hope we can continue on into 
the foreseeable future. Peace. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: "Richards, Robert B. (CTR)" 
<01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Date: 2/14/22  3:53 PM  
(GMT-05:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Holy Moly ... > some of 
our guys will go on until 70Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) 
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 On Behalf Of David CrayfordSent: Monday, February 
14, 2022 3:26 PMTo: ibm-m...@listserv.ua.EDUSubject: Re: Holy Moly ...You make 
some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting any younger 
and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer platforms like 
Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular opinion, but it's 
important to concentrate on millenials now. A large percentage of developers in 
my location are in their 60s and close to retirement. It's not easy to train 
young people to back-fill as our legacy products are written in HLASM and 
require deep technical knowledge of MVS subsystems. It's optimistic to 
speculate that it will take 5 years to bring somebody up to speed when it's 
probably more like 10. We hope that now we are all working from home that some 
of our guys will go on until 70. We are also modernizing our products and for 
that we need young guys. While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly 
very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. 
It's not because they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.On 14/2/22 
10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:> It is not so much about capitalism as it is about 
respectful us

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Again, cash flow can be positive OR NEGATIVE. Profits are what drives stock 
prices, executive compensation, and investment. Revenue drives SOME stocks, 
mostly newer ones, who invest big for future profits. Which generates negative 
cash flow until they reach profitability stage and growth (and investment) 
begins to slow. Executive compensation has almost nothing to do with corporate 
profitability. In fact many companies pay executives in stock options not cash. 
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The S 500 index is a factor 
of profits times a multiple. Current 2022 estimate of S 500 profits is 
estimated at $235 and approximately a 22 multiple. Giving the index a 5170 
valuation right around where most banks and investment houses project the index 
will finish in 22.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 15, 2022, 9:50 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bob Bridges]

IMHO, having to look something up in the manual is just a routine part of the 
job -- not something to apologize for.  I remember starting a contract for an 
insurance company in Ohio and being told, after I'd been there a month or two, 
that what got me hired was that during the interview I said "I don't do that 
often enough to tell you off-hand; I'd have to look it up".  I guess they had 
their BS-o-meter turned up and liked that answer better than someone attempting 
to bluff-guess.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* We should take care not to make the intellect our god;  it has, of course, 
powerful muscles, but no personality.  -Albert Einstein */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 21:47

I have a useful knowledge of PERL, Python, BASH scripting, Java, and C/C++.
I do need to look things up when writing in them mainly because I'm not as 
interested anymore. I'm lazily reading about RUST right now.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bob Bridges]

That's heartening news.  My impression, just from hearing loose talk, is
that at least 50% of the developers I know learned one language (mostly
COBOL in the shops where I worked) and didn't care to learn anything else,
or in some cases didn't think they could.  I'm with you, Shmuel; learning a
new language is interesting and usually fun.

Oh, well, I guess I'll have to stop feeling myself superior, now :).

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Definition of boat ownership: Standing fully-clothed under a cold shower,
tearing up 100-dollar bills. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 21:35

I've always expected programmers to learn new languages as needed, and for
me it's recreation, at least if the new language is halfway decent. During
the last half century at least 70% of my colleagues have been willing to
learn new things.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[David Spiegel]

Hi John,
Good thing you're not RUSTy.

Regards,
David

On 2022-02-15 21:47, John McKown wrote:

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 8:34 PM Seymour J Metz  wrote:


While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to

retrain a

HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because
they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.

I've always expected programmers to learn new languages as needed, and for
me it's recreation, at least if the new language is halfway decent. During
the last half century at least 70% of my colleagues have been willing to
learn new things.


I have a useful knowledge of PERL, Python, BASH scripting, Java, and C/C++.
I do need to look things up when writing in them mainly because I'm not as
interested anymore. I'm lazily reading about RUST right now.

--

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

Learning the parts of a language that you need is a sound strategy; it is, of 
course, crucial that you learn where to look things up as you hit new 
requirements. That's especially true when you include packages in, e.g., CPAN. 
Certainly for Java, Perl and Python it would be ludicrous to try learning all 
of them.

How big is just the C++ STL these days?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
John McKown [john.archie.mck...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 9:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 8:34 PM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> > While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to
> retrain a
> > HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because
> > they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.
>
> I've always expected programmers to learn new languages as needed, and for
> me it's recreation, at least if the new language is halfway decent. During
> the last half century at least 70% of my colleagues have been willing to
> learn new things.
>

I have a useful knowledge of PERL, Python, BASH scripting, Java, and C/C++.
I do need to look things up when writing in them mainly because I'm not as
interested anymore. I'm lazily reading about RUST right now.

--
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

That's a non sequitur. You've just proven my point.

Actions taken to improve profits take a long time to have the desired effect. 
Stock prices are driven by what happens in the near term. That's cash flow, not 
profits.

Most top level executives seek to maximize their compensation, even if that is 
at the expense of the long term profitability of their company.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dfMy-SfHe1W2vtmpin7YZFmlHchVzEsEnrLinBorh28FKFlMXYGVvu6XH39F0mXTmI_0EEDnePoRd59BgGFUYlInDZj4cS4Lah_KXFSDtt4ROhIKGRu4NEQ5PP3UsGQjqFHpdEYswnDm9LBxXAamuNg9S1GEUV5Xd75UDlGGgedxhOCZhv37kD5OHRnPJfuTlH207FfjDimbiCt9oGHke9YUzhL3BUE28iRAQL7aVI42XlDOVPwLng4LOEppKFyHha1mJtpHDKiZ_-ZsCk_iAB127QAl8hxn5x3mEFA8jNKMudxxjJlZuA1BG3Zjb6tI6ShXov17AD0rzHnNdow0wwrSm3CEnsajFcU_0x_NwVOVg6Q0x_3ViP6uVuFseE31b9B74gWpZsDmQ8JOyH4adN--CvB4KrmojXi7pmufHIYZ5US2wvg1DMwEV8qfoPFgf1sjdkWwdFJ_1xB4J2iepA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nyti

Re: Holy Moly ...

[John McKown]

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 8:34 PM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> > While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to
> retrain a
> > HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because
> > they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.
>
> I've always expected programmers to learn new languages as needed, and for
> me it's recreation, at least if the new language is halfway decent. During
> the last half century at least 70% of my colleagues have been willing to
> learn new things.
>

I have a useful knowledge of PERL, Python, BASH scripting, Java, and C/C++.
I do need to look things up when writing in them mainly because I'm not as
interested anymore. I'm lazily reading about RUST right now.

--
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

> While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain 
> a
> HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because
> they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.

I've always expected programmers to learn new languages as needed, and for me 
it's recreation, at least if the new language is halfway decent. During the 
last half century at least 70% of my colleagues have been willing to learn new 
things.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are
getting any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people
who prefer platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be
an unpopular opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials
now. A large percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s
and close to retirement. It's not easy to train young people to
back-fill as our legacy products are written in HLASM and require deep
technical knowledge of MVS subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that
it will take 5 years to bring somebody up to speed when it's probably
more like 10. We hope that now we are all working from home that some of
our guys will go on until 70. We are also modernizing our products and
for that we need young guys. While it's certainly not impossible, it's
certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python,
Javascript etc. It's not because they're not smart enough, they just
don't want to.

On 14/2/22 10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:
> It is not so much about capitalism as it is about respectful use of language 
> to describe groups of people. 
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1hbRn4svJaIpvL51GjxS6CwtmmudqfSvOtlkj1xCgRXIQUrfgAAyLoZjMau3sMlJrkXiGDhJDKsV8kzqhY9IWnGkHb2hu7ujEPmwjw42q5uCjMIRWagjWexOUlMpqT2eozNHcxvHTlSN3I0-cqZwu6PPDAcscL_MH8A0ZIcOGMTb5OYp2C3DQFnXEMyTRY88GJAUF_qIboleCbk7W7linAH5AwhklACt6Spd7a2JDIHiDq6hhhr7Mcifk_kB0nlhsDqVyix10cGO1J1ZZM3XFbP6xrU-yvpXLGSrowpLTJZOierIKj-j_QIK7AkbNGVDn0R9NbR5ThCSVzv0iy2UH7Y775mYBra1H5jjl2bsIqoiEhanMy4Jmqz1R3HaPMhPuFbi2Q9wFjgkNh5IclW4XYOD_ynOGfnogUE2mnLOyR_zSalsHzhp5QTZ1JgHSobLxSThLfwdplcgC_yz-8Xe9pw/https%3A%2F%2Ffeatures.propublica.org%2Fibm%2Fibm-age-discrimination-american-workers%2F
>  
> <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1hbRn4svJaIpvL51GjxS6CwtmmudqfSvOtlkj1xCgRXIQUrfgAAyLoZjMau3sMlJrkXiGDhJDKsV8kzqhY9IWnGkHb2hu7ujEPmwjw42q5uCjMIRWagjWexOUlMpqT2eozNHcxvHTlSN3I0-cqZwu6PPDAcscL_MH8A0ZIcOGMTb5OYp2C3DQFnXEMyTRY88GJAUF_qIboleCbk7W7linAH5AwhklACt6Spd7a2JDIHiDq6hhhr7Mcifk_kB0nlhsDqVyix10cGO1J1ZZM3XFbP6xrU-yvpXLGSrowpLTJZOierIKj-j_QIK7AkbNGVDn0R9NbR5ThCSVzv0iy2UH7Y775mYBra1H5jjl2bsIqoiEhanMy4Jmqz1R3HaPMhPuFbi2Q9wFjgkNh5IclW4XYOD_ynOGfnogUE2mnLOyR_zSalsHzhp5QTZ1JgHSobLxSThLfwdplcgC_yz-8Xe9pw/https%3A%2F%2Ffeatures.propublica.org%2Fibm%2Fibm-age-discrimination-american-workers%2F>
>  shows that the problem is not exactly new but that the outrage then was 
> limited to terms like ‘grey hairs and old heads’. The following part is 
> interesting:
>
> "By the time IBM’s current CEO, Virginia “Ginni” Rometty, took over in 2012, 
> the company had shifted its personnel focus to millennials.
> Rometty launched a major overhaul that aimed to make IBM a major player in 
> the emerging technologies of cloud services, big data analytics, mobile, 
> security and social media, or what came to be known inside as CAMS.
> At the same time, she sought to sharply increase hiring of people born after 
> 1980.
> “CAMS are driven by Millennial Traits,” declared a slide presentation for an 
> invitation-only IBM event in New York in December 2014. Not only were 
> millennials in sync with the new technologies, but they were also attuned to 
> the collaborative, consensus-driven modes of work these technologies 
> demanded, company researchers said they’d discovered. Millennials “are not 
> likely to make decisions in isolation,” the presentation said, but instead 
> “depend on analytic technologies to help them.”
> By contrast, people 50 or over are “more dubious” of analytics, “place less 
> stock in the advantages data offers,” and are less “motivated to consult 
> their colleagues or get their buy in … It’s Baby Boomers who are the 
> outliers.”
> The message was clear. To succeed at the new technologies, the company must, 
> in the words of the presentation, “become one with the Millennial mindset.” 
> Similar language found its way into a variety of IBM presentations in 
> subsequent years.”
>
> A company’s workforce needs to be sustained by its earnings - this was even 
> true in socialism and that is what ended it in eas

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

I'm on StackOverflow, but mostly for LaTeX issues.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Matt Hogstrom [m...@hogstrom.org]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I’d suggest / welcome others to join  StackOverflow, SuperUser and ServerFault. 
 The tags you are most interested in would be [mainframe,zos,cobol,db2]   
Server fault also to a lesser extent.  StackOverflow is more of a programming 
site and SuperUser is more system administration.  Server Fault has a mix of 
questions too.  It would be powerful for us to post our questions there and 
answer them as well.  That way z/OS and the mainframe will be more discoverable 
by Google.

Its much less of a “community” as we have here but new sysprogs and others will 
google questions and there is a lack of material out there.  We could help 
accelerate new training by putting out questions and answers so they are easier 
to find.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Feb 14, 2022, at 3:25 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
>
> You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
> any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
> platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

Ouch! I hope your leg healed well.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Richards, Robert B. (CTR) [01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 7:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Patrick,

I broke two bones in my right leg right below my knee on Thanksgiving 2019. 
That gave me a four month head start on teleworking compared to the rest of 
you. It also changed my outlook about retiring. No more issues with the 
commute, no getting up at 3:30am to beat the heavy commute traffic to DC on 
I-95, no paying ridiculous out of pocket $$$ for EZPASS when heavy traffic 
shows up even at 4:30am.

As long as teleworking remains in force, I do not intend to even consider 
retiring. I enjoy what we do for a living. Believe it or not,  z/OSMF has 
definitely captured my interest of late, especially using the workflow and 
software management aspects. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Pass on the occasional "Atta Boy", keep sending a paycheck twice a month, allow 
me to take my vacation days and I am good to go for the foreseeable future! 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
patrickfalcone7
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 4:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Go Bob go. I use to believe I would be retired by now, I'm 60+. I got to this 
point and I like the continuing challenges. I dont want to necessarily retire, 
maybe lessen the load a bit. This has been my life and I want to stay active as 
long as I can contribute productively. Personally, I think IBM is missing, has 
missed and will continue to miss, a great opportunity due to their marketing 
strategies that either miss the mark or are not mainstream enough to catch the 
interest of younger people. If this continues I feel the mainframe MVS 
environment will continue to shed its value to the big business guys and they 
will eventually explore other alternatives as they are all probably doing now 
as part of their own due diligence. If you think about it, and I think this 
good, the mainframe environment now offers, please correct me, the most 
extensively horizontal capable environment with regard to software available. 
That in itself positions it to be more of a one stop for everything with 
potentially less *wires* to connect to and that has to be a major advantage as 
well.Soapbox on: every project I'm on gets bogged down with network - and thats 
just the way it is but ask me if I like that part :off Soapbox.IBM? You're 
there! Fix the marketing part, maybe I can help. Might take some time but we'll 
get there.To people I am friends with on list I hope we can continue on into 
the foreseeable future. Peace. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: "Richards, Robert B. (CTR)" 
<01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Date: 2/14/22  3:53 PM  
(GMT-05:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Holy Moly ... > some of 
our guys will go on until 70Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) 
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 On Behalf Of David CrayfordSent: Monday, February 
14, 2022 3:26 PMTo: ibm-m...@listserv.ua.EDUSubject: Re: Holy Moly ...You make 
some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting any younger 
and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer platforms like 
Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular opinion, but it's 
important to concentrate on millenials now. A large percentage of developers in 
my location are in their 60s and close to retirement. It's not easy to train 
young people to back-fill as our legacy products are written in HLASM and 
require deep technical knowledge of MVS subsystems. It's optimistic to 
speculate that it will take 5 years to bring somebody up to speed when it's 
probably more like 10. We hope that now we are all working from home that some 
of our guys will go on until 70. We are also modernizing our products and for 
that we need young guys. While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly 
very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. 
It's not because they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.On 14/2/22 
10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:> It is not so much about capitalism as it is about 
respectful use of language to describe groups of people. 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/17JJmSdRQNVmd8izYlsJ9FSau0E5YopKtTx3eTSPUe0W2_kmD7tRrh8mAtltNEmFjSsDLu40yWEtQG6OoLM_6Hwp5Dg5h66wt_va8kIvesGmog-D1eQ7A6KUQclLuOnitaOaxLsOTQ4dBUm8wLQOaKditsNsjyc_neeCbaPu0D8whPikXjKyBJBYuX5FvSwjZaqB1sOFRWxO-OXWGp2kflRPtjWewLe0RzgRDfGQknRY3pH9lyzJT9calAbY94AbBAtItdLm7ktSc7k5LvqJNvks0KJLGTS7

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Stefan Skoglund]

mån 2022-02-14 klockan 16:19 -0500 skrev Matt Hogstrom:
> there is always RetroComputing as well … they love nostalgic
> questions 
> 
> https://stackoverflow.com/ 
> https://superuser.com/ 
> https://serverfault.com/ 
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/ <
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/>
> 
> I find it a nice way to document the tribal knowledge we have in our
> heads.
> 

which would also give the micros related questions a bit of
competition, so please !

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Carmen Vitullo]

Sad to hear of your medical issues Bob, but what a great outlook.

I think I'd prolly feel the same way if the current company I worked for 
would would stop following politics, NUF said.


even if I cannot retire fully, I plan on retiring next Jan, 10 months, 
26 days :)


personally I cannot take the political BS anymore, I'll find a contract 
or part time gig that allows me to come and go as I please.



Carmen

On 2/15/2022 6:28 AM, Richards, Robert B. (CTR) wrote:

Patrick,

I broke two bones in my right leg right below my knee on Thanksgiving 2019. 
That gave me a four month head start on teleworking compared to the rest of 
you. It also changed my outlook about retiring. No more issues with the 
commute, no getting up at 3:30am to beat the heavy commute traffic to DC on 
I-95, no paying ridiculous out of pocket $$$ for EZPASS when heavy traffic 
shows up even at 4:30am.

As long as teleworking remains in force, I do not intend to even consider 
retiring. I enjoy what we do for a living. Believe it or not,  z/OSMF has 
definitely captured my interest of late, especially using the workflow and 
software management aspects. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Pass on the occasional "Atta Boy", keep sending a paycheck twice a month, allow 
me to take my vacation days and I am good to go for the foreseeable future! 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
patrickfalcone7
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 4:58 PM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Go Bob go. I use to believe I would be retired by now, I'm 60+. I got to this 
point and I like the continuing challenges. I dont want to necessarily retire, 
maybe lessen the load a bit. This has been my life and I want to stay active as 
long as I can contribute productively. Personally, I think IBM is missing, has 
missed and will continue to miss, a great opportunity due to their marketing 
strategies that either miss the mark or are not mainstream enough to catch the 
interest of younger people. If this continues I feel the mainframe MVS 
environment will continue to shed its value to the big business guys and they 
will eventually explore other alternatives as they are all probably doing now 
as part of their own due diligence. If you think about it, and I think this 
good, the mainframe environment now offers, please correct me, the most 
extensively horizontal capable environment with regard to software available. 
That in itself positions it to be more of a one stop for everything with 
potentially less *wires* to connect to and that has to be a major advantage as 
well.Soapbox on: every project I'm on gets bogged down with network - and thats 
just the way it is but ask me if I like that part :off Soapbox.IBM? You're 
there! Fix the marketing part, maybe I can help. Might take some time but we'll 
get there.To people I am friends with on list I hope we can continue on into 
the foreseeable future. Peace. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: "Richards, Robert B. (CTR)"<01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>  Date: 2/14/22  3:53 PM  (GMT-05:00) To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU  Subject: Re: Holy Moly ... > some of our guys will go on until 70Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) -Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of David CrayfordSent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PMTo:ibm-m...@listserv.ua.EDUSubject: Re: Holy Moly ...You make 
some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS subsystems. It's optimistic to 
speculate that it will take 5 years to bring somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.On 14/2/22 10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:> It is not so much about capitalism as 
it is about respectful use of language to describe groups of people.https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/  <https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/>  shows that the problem is not exactly new but that the outrage then was limited to terms like ‘grey hairs and old heads’. The following par

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Richards, Robert B. (CTR)]

Patrick,

I broke two bones in my right leg right below my knee on Thanksgiving 2019. 
That gave me a four month head start on teleworking compared to the rest of 
you. It also changed my outlook about retiring. No more issues with the 
commute, no getting up at 3:30am to beat the heavy commute traffic to DC on 
I-95, no paying ridiculous out of pocket $$$ for EZPASS when heavy traffic 
shows up even at 4:30am.

As long as teleworking remains in force, I do not intend to even consider 
retiring. I enjoy what we do for a living. Believe it or not,  z/OSMF has 
definitely captured my interest of late, especially using the workflow and 
software management aspects. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. 

Pass on the occasional "Atta Boy", keep sending a paycheck twice a month, allow 
me to take my vacation days and I am good to go for the foreseeable future!   

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
patrickfalcone7
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 4:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Go Bob go. I use to believe I would be retired by now, I'm 60+. I got to this 
point and I like the continuing challenges. I dont want to necessarily retire, 
maybe lessen the load a bit. This has been my life and I want to stay active as 
long as I can contribute productively. Personally, I think IBM is missing, has 
missed and will continue to miss, a great opportunity due to their marketing 
strategies that either miss the mark or are not mainstream enough to catch the 
interest of younger people. If this continues I feel the mainframe MVS 
environment will continue to shed its value to the big business guys and they 
will eventually explore other alternatives as they are all probably doing now 
as part of their own due diligence. If you think about it, and I think this 
good, the mainframe environment now offers, please correct me, the most 
extensively horizontal capable environment with regard to software available. 
That in itself positions it to be more of a one stop for everything with 
potentially less *wires* to connect to and that has to be a major advantage as 
well.Soapbox on: every project I'm on gets bogged down with network - and thats 
just the way it is but ask me if I like that part :off Soapbox.IBM? You're 
there! Fix the marketing part, maybe I can help. Might take some time but we'll 
get there.To people I am friends with on list I hope we can continue on into 
the foreseeable future. Peace. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: "Richards, Robert B. (CTR)" 
<01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Date: 2/14/22  3:53 PM  
(GMT-05:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Holy Moly ... > some of 
our guys will go on until 70Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) 
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 On Behalf Of David CrayfordSent: Monday, February 
14, 2022 3:26 PMTo: ibm-m...@listserv.ua.EDUSubject: Re: Holy Moly ...You make 
some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting any younger 
and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer platforms like 
Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular opinion, but it's 
important to concentrate on millenials now. A large percentage of developers in 
my location are in their 60s and close to retirement. It's not easy to train 
young people to back-fill as our legacy products are written in HLASM and 
require deep technical knowledge of MVS subsystems. It's optimistic to 
speculate that it will take 5 years to bring somebody up to speed when it's 
probably more like 10. We hope that now we are all working from home that some 
of our guys will go on until 70. We are also modernizing our products and for 
that we need young guys. While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly 
very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. 
It's not because they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.On 14/2/22 
10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:> It is not so much about capitalism as it is about 
respectful use of language to describe groups of people. 
https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/ 
<https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/> 
shows that the problem is not exactly new but that the outrage then was limited 
to terms like ‘grey hairs and old heads’. The following part is interesting:>> 
"By the time IBM’s current CEO, Virginia “Ginni” Rometty, took over in 2012, 
the company had shifted its personnel focus to millennials.> Rometty launched a 
major overhaul that aimed to make IBM a major player in the emerging 
technologies of cloud services, big data analytics, mobile, security and social 
media, or what came to be known inside as CAMS.> At the same time, she sought 
to sharply incre

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Farley, Peter x23353]

I try very hard to reserve some weekend time (when not on a necessary weekend 
work task) just for me, and my family understands that my "self-education time" 
needs to be factored in with other family priorities.  Obvious family 
necessaries like food shopping, home repairs and normal maintenance, etc. of 
course take precedence, but my time is factored in too.  Perhaps I am lucky in 
that.

Life/work balance is an ongoing challenge.  I've been on 24x7 production 
coverage lists of one sort or another for most of my career.  Regularly cooking 
evening meals with my spouse is one way I found to forget work for a while each 
day.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Doug
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Good point Peter,
Many of ‘us’ enjoy learning new everything but keeping the wheels on the bus 
and day to day stuff keep us busy 50 hours per day. Learning time is very 
limited.
Cheers 
.

On Feb 14, 2022, at 16:17, David Crayford  wrote:

It depends on the team. My comments reflect my experience with my colleagues 
in locale. They readily admit they prefer the status quo so it's not a 
criticism.

Case in point - we had to move to Git as it's company policy. A lot of other 
products took the leap and moved their code to the file system and learned how 
to use new tools. That was a non-starter for us as it would have been 
disruptive and there was push back. We wrote integration code to hook git into 
our existing SCM so it was opaque to the devs. They don't know they are using 
Git until they go to Bitbucket to open a pull request. When I was running 
training using bash they were moaning about having to use MS-DOS :)

On 15/2/22 4:43 am, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote:
> I have to disagree with you on this point:
> 
> "While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to 
> retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because 
> they're not smart enough, they just don't want to."
> 
> Maybe I am an exception (though I tend to doubt it) but I thoroughly enjoy 
> learning about new technologies, and I have been in the mainframe programming 
> business since 1968 (at IBM as a co-op student worker in college).
> 
> Lately I have been doing quite a lot of python and bash shell programming 
> solving "challenges" on IBM's zXplore site and having a great time learning a 
> bunch of new (to me) stuff.
> 
> I believe that there are a great deal more folk "out here" that would enjoy 
> learning "new stuff" if only they were given the opportunity to do so.
> 
> YMMV of course, but I wanted to make the point that not ALL "old timers" are 
> technophobes of the "new stuff".
> 
> Peter
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of David Crayford
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> 
> You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
> any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
> platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular 
> opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large 
> percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to 
> retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy 
> products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS 
> subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that it will take 5 years to bring 
> somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are 
> all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also 
> modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's 
> certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM 
> programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not 
> smart enough, they just don't want to.
-- 


This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Doug]

Good point Peter,
Many of ‘us’ enjoy learning new everything but keeping the wheels on the bus 
and day to day stuff keep us busy 50 hours per day. Learning time is very 
limited.
Cheers 

.

On Feb 14, 2022, at 16:17, David Crayford  wrote:

It depends on the team. My comments reflect my experience with my colleagues 
in locale. They readily admit they prefer the status quo so it's not a 
criticism.

Case in point - we had to move to Git as it's company policy. A lot of other 
products took the leap and moved their code to the file system and learned how 
to use new tools. That was a non-starter for us as it would have been 
disruptive and there was push back. We wrote integration code to hook git into 
our existing SCM so it was opaque to the devs. They don't know they are using 
Git until they go to Bitbucket to open a pull request. When I was running 
training using bash they were moaning about having to use MS-DOS :)

On 15/2/22 4:43 am, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote:
> I have to disagree with you on this point:
> 
> "While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to 
> retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because 
> they're not smart enough, they just don't want to."
> 
> Maybe I am an exception (though I tend to doubt it) but I thoroughly enjoy 
> learning about new technologies, and I have been in the mainframe programming 
> business since 1968 (at IBM as a co-op student worker in college).
> 
> Lately I have been doing quite a lot of python and bash shell programming 
> solving "challenges" on IBM's zXplore site and having a great time learning a 
> bunch of new (to me) stuff.
> 
> I believe that there are a great deal more folk "out here" that would enjoy 
> learning "new stuff" if only they were given the opportunity to do so.
> 
> YMMV of course, but I wanted to make the point that not ALL "old timers" are 
> technophobes of the "new stuff".
> 
> Peter
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> David Crayford
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> 
> You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
> any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
> platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular 
> opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large 
> percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to 
> retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy 
> products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS 
> subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that it will take 5 years to bring 
> somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are 
> all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also 
> modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's 
> certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM 
> programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not 
> smart enough, they just don't want to.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Alan Young]

Other tech news has started to pick up on this.
 
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/02/ibm-exec-called-older-workers-dinobabies-who-should-go-extinct-lawsuit-says/
 
https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/14/ibm_age_discrimination_court_documents/
 
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
Sent: Feb 14, 2022 4:12 AM
To: 
Subject: Holy Moly ...
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
 
"Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
 
A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
for us.”
 
Joe
 
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[patrickfalcone7]

Go Bob go. I use to believe I would be retired by now, I'm 60+. I got to this 
point and I like the continuing challenges. I dont want to necessarily retire, 
maybe lessen the load a bit. This has been my life and I want to stay active as 
long as I can contribute productively. Personally, I think IBM is missing, has 
missed and will continue to miss, a great opportunity due to their marketing 
strategies that either miss the mark or are not mainstream enough to catch the 
interest of younger people. If this continues I feel the mainframe MVS 
environment will continue to shed its value to the big business guys and they 
will eventually explore other alternatives as they are all probably doing now 
as part of their own due diligence. If you think about it, and I think this 
good, the mainframe environment now offers, please correct me, the most 
extensively horizontal capable environment with regard to software available. 
That in itself positions it to be more of a one stop for everything with 
potentially less *wires* to connect to and that has to be a major advantage as 
well.Soapbox on: every project I'm on gets bogged down with network - and thats 
just the way it is but ask me if I like that part :off Soapbox.IBM? You're 
there! Fix the marketing part, maybe I can help. Might take some time but we'll 
get there.To people I am friends with on list I hope we can continue on into 
the foreseeable future. Peace. Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: "Richards, Robert B. (CTR)" 
<01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Date: 2/14/22  3:53 PM  
(GMT-05:00) To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Holy Moly ... > some of 
our guys will go on until 70Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) 
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 On Behalf Of David CrayfordSent: Monday, February 
14, 2022 3:26 PMTo: ibm-m...@listserv.ua.EDUSubject: Re: Holy Moly ...You make 
some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting any younger 
and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer platforms like 
Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular opinion, but it's 
important to concentrate on millenials now. A large percentage of developers in 
my location are in their 60s and close to retirement. It's not easy to train 
young people to back-fill as our legacy products are written in HLASM and 
require deep technical knowledge of MVS subsystems. It's optimistic to 
speculate that it will take 5 years to bring somebody up to speed when it's 
probably more like 10. We hope that now we are all working from home that some 
of our guys will go on until 70. We are also modernizing our products and for 
that we need young guys. While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly 
very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. 
It's not because they're not smart enough, they just don't want to.On 14/2/22 
10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:> It is not so much about capitalism as it is about 
respectful use of language to describe groups of people. 
https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/ 
<https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/> 
shows that the problem is not exactly new but that the outrage then was limited 
to terms like ‘grey hairs and old heads’. The following part is interesting:>> 
"By the time IBM’s current CEO, Virginia “Ginni” Rometty, took over in 2012, 
the company had shifted its personnel focus to millennials.> Rometty launched a 
major overhaul that aimed to make IBM a major player in the emerging 
technologies of cloud services, big data analytics, mobile, security and social 
media, or what came to be known inside as CAMS.> At the same time, she sought 
to sharply increase hiring of people born after 1980.> “CAMS are driven by 
Millennial Traits,” declared a slide presentation for an invitation-only IBM 
event in New York in December 2014. Not only were millennials in sync with the 
new technologies, but they were also attuned to the collaborative, 
consensus-driven modes of work these technologies demanded, company researchers 
said they’d discovered. Millennials “are not likely to make decisions in 
isolation,” the presentation said, but instead “depend on analytic technologies 
to help them.”> By contrast, people 50 or over are “more dubious” of analytics, 
“place less stock in the advantages data offers,” and are less “motivated to 
consult their colleagues or get their buy in … It’s Baby Boomers who are the 
outliers.”> The message was clear. To succeed at the new technologies, the 
company must, in the words of the presentation, “become one with the Millennial 
mindset.” Similar language found its way into a variety of IBM presentations in 
subsequent years.”>> A company’s workforce needs to be sustained by its 
earni

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Cameron Conacher]

That is inspiring.
I like what I do.
I hope to work as long as I want to.
I sometimes wonder what I could possibly be doing, if I was not in IT.
I think I would become a waiter. I would sit all day and wait…..

Thanks,

…….Cameron





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Crayford
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 4:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: Holy Moly ...

On 15/2/22 4:53 am, Richards, Robert B. (CTR) wrote:
>> some of our guys will go on until 70
> Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) 

You're not the only one! One of our testers is 81 and still delivering
exceptional results. He has no plans to retire and we don't want him to.


> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of 
> David Crayford
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
>
> You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
> any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
> platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular 
> opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large 
> percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to 
> retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy 
> products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS 
> subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that it will take 5 years to bring 
> somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are 
> all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also 
> modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's 
> certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM 
> programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not 
> smart enough, they just don't want to.
>
> On 14/2/22 10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:
>> It is not so much about capitalism as it is about respectful use of language 
>> to describe groups of people. 
>> https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/<https://isolate.menlosecurity.com/1/3735928037/https:/features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/>
>>  
>> <https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/<https://isolate.menlosecurity.com/1/3735928037/https:/features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/>>
>>  shows that the problem is not exactly new but that the outrage then was 
>> limited to terms like ‘grey hairs and old heads’. The following part is 
>> interesting:
>>
>> "By the time IBM’s current CEO, Virginia “Ginni” Rometty, took over in 2012, 
>> the company had shifted its personnel focus to millennials.
>> Rometty launched a major overhaul that aimed to make IBM a major player in 
>> the emerging technologies of cloud services, big data analytics, mobile, 
>> security and social media, or what came to be known inside as CAMS.
>> At the same time, she sought to sharply increase hiring of people born after 
>> 1980.
>> “CAMS are driven by Millennial Traits,” declared a slide presentation for an 
>> invitation-only IBM event in New York in December 2014. Not only were 
>> millennials in sync with the new technologies, but they were also attuned to 
>> the collaborative, consensus-driven modes of work these technologies 
>> demanded, company researchers said they’d discovered. Millennials “are not 
>> likely to make decisions in isolation,” the presentation said, but instead 
>> “depend on analytic technologies to help them.”
>> By contrast, people 50 or over are “more dubious” of analytics, “place less 
>> stock in the advantages data offers,” and are less “motivated to consult 
>> their colleagues or get their buy in … It’s Baby Boomers who are the 
>> outliers.”
>> The message was clear. To succeed at the new technologies, the company must, 
>> in the words of the presentation, “become one with the Millennial mindset.” 
>> Similar language found its way into a variety of IBM presentations in 
>> subsequent years.”
>>
>> A company’s workforce needs to be sustained by its earnings - this was even 
>> true in socialism and that is what ended it in eastern europe - you cannot 
>> sell your grain and eat it - and IBM needed to focus on its earnings. Where 
>> earlier cash flow and earnings were based on scientific research (much of it 
>> publicly financed at universities) and government/defence contracts 
>> (publicl

Re: Holy Moly ...

[David Crayford]

On 15/2/22 5:19 am, Matt Hogstrom wrote:

there is always RetroComputing as well … they love nostalgic questions


That's awesome! The perfect space :)




https://stackoverflow.com/  
https://superuser.com/  
https://serverfault.com/  
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/  


I find it a nice way to document the tribal knowledge we have in our heads.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Matt Hogstrom]

there is always RetroComputing as well … they love nostalgic questions 

https://stackoverflow.com/ 
https://superuser.com/ 
https://serverfault.com/ 
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/ 


I find it a nice way to document the tribal knowledge we have in our heads.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook   LinkedIn 
  Twitter 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom

>> 
> The good thing about the Stack Exchange network is any nostalgia posts about 
> 1960s disk systems will be quickly closed by a moderator as off-topic. This 
> forum suffers from topic drift and nostalgia threads which make it difficult 
> to see the wood for the trees. If you want to indulge in nostalgia then find 
> a space where that is on-topic.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Its much less of a “community” as we have here but new sysprogs and others 
>> will google questions and there is a lack of material out there.  We could 
>> help accelerate new training by putting out questions and answers so they 
>> are easier to find.
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[David Crayford]

It depends on the team. My comments reflect my experience with my 
colleagues in locale. They readily admit they prefer the status quo so 
it's not a criticism.


Case in point - we had to move to Git as it's company policy. A lot of 
other products took the leap and moved their code to the file system and 
learned how to use new tools. That was a non-starter for us as it would 
have been disruptive and there was push back. We wrote integration code 
to hook git into our existing SCM so it was opaque to the devs. They 
don't know they are using Git until they go to Bitbucket to open a pull 
request. When I was running training using bash they were moaning about 
having to use MS-DOS :)


On 15/2/22 4:43 am, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote:

I have to disagree with you on this point:

"While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a 
HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not smart 
enough, they just don't want to."

Maybe I am an exception (though I tend to doubt it) but I thoroughly enjoy 
learning about new technologies, and I have been in the mainframe programming 
business since 1968 (at IBM as a co-op student worker in college).

Lately I have been doing quite a lot of python and bash shell programming solving 
"challenges" on IBM's zXplore site and having a great time learning a bunch of 
new (to me) stuff.

I believe that there are a great deal more folk "out here" that would enjoy learning 
"new stuff" if only they were given the opportunity to do so.

YMMV of course, but I wanted to make the point that not ALL "old timers" are technophobes 
of the "new stuff".

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Crayford
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular 
opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large 
percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to 
retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy 
products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS 
subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that it will take 5 years to bring 
somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are 
all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also 
modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's certainly 
not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to 
Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not smart enough, they 
just don't want to.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[David Crayford]

On 15/2/22 4:53 am, Richards, Robert B. (CTR) wrote:

some of our guys will go on until 70

Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) 


You're not the only one! One of our testers is 81 and still delivering 
exceptional results. He has no plans to retire and we don't want him to.




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Crayford
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular 
opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large 
percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to 
retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy 
products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS 
subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that it will take 5 years to bring 
somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are 
all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also 
modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's certainly 
not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to 
Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not smart enough, they 
just don't want to.

On 14/2/22 10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:

It is not so much about capitalism as it is about respectful use of language to 
describe groups of people. 
https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/ 
<https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/> 
shows that the problem is not exactly new but that the outrage then was limited to 
terms like ‘grey hairs and old heads’. The following part is interesting:

"By the time IBM’s current CEO, Virginia “Ginni” Rometty, took over in 2012, 
the company had shifted its personnel focus to millennials.
Rometty launched a major overhaul that aimed to make IBM a major player in the 
emerging technologies of cloud services, big data analytics, mobile, security 
and social media, or what came to be known inside as CAMS.
At the same time, she sought to sharply increase hiring of people born after 
1980.
“CAMS are driven by Millennial Traits,” declared a slide presentation for an 
invitation-only IBM event in New York in December 2014. Not only were 
millennials in sync with the new technologies, but they were also attuned to 
the collaborative, consensus-driven modes of work these technologies demanded, 
company researchers said they’d discovered. Millennials “are not likely to make 
decisions in isolation,” the presentation said, but instead “depend on analytic 
technologies to help them.”
By contrast, people 50 or over are “more dubious” of analytics, “place less 
stock in the advantages data offers,” and are less “motivated to consult their 
colleagues or get their buy in … It’s Baby Boomers who are the outliers.”
The message was clear. To succeed at the new technologies, the company must, in 
the words of the presentation, “become one with the Millennial mindset.” 
Similar language found its way into a variety of IBM presentations in 
subsequent years.”

A company’s workforce needs to be sustained by its earnings - this was even 
true in socialism and that is what ended it in eastern europe - you cannot sell 
your grain and eat it -  and IBM needed to focus on its earnings. Where earlier 
cash flow and earnings were based on scientific research (much of it publicly 
financed at universities) and government/defence contracts (publicly financed) 
and an exemplary execution of those contracts with military precision  (which 
led to the tendency of dictating customers what they needed in a command and 
control like structure) lead them to neglect the market and think they could 
fill in the parts they missed (mini computers and personal computers (the 
original PC, developed mainly by IBM'ers but outside of IBM, was an outlier, 
the MCA/OS2 time did show it did not learn a lot, as did OCO) without their 
earnings suffering. But this was not to be, and focus needed to shift to cost.

This was the time that IBM noticed it did not need a lot of managers that flew 
around the world and ordered five newspapers to read for their top tier hotel 
rooms. But closing down scientific centers, not having trickle down their 
knowledge by opening source and interesting students for it, dried up the 
sources of that competitive edge. The CAMS, as indicated above, might very well 
be concepts that other companies  can execute better than IBM, how many 
companies it buys or dinosaurs it offloads.  I have more trust in the new chip 
design than in all of big data in the cloud on social media to bring successes 
to IBM. The level making these deci

Re: Holy Moly ...

[David Crayford]

On 15/2/22 4:31 am, Matt Hogstrom wrote:

I’d suggest / welcome others to join  StackOverflow, SuperUser and ServerFault. 
 The tags you are most interested in would be [mainframe,zos,cobol,db2]   
Server fault also to a lesser extent.  StackOverflow is more of a programming 
site and SuperUser is more system administration.  Server Fault has a mix of 
questions too.  It would be powerful for us to post our questions there and 
answer them as well.  That way z/OS and the mainframe will be more discoverable 
by Google.


The good thing about the Stack Exchange network is any nostalgia posts 
about 1960s disk systems will be quickly closed by a moderator as 
off-topic. This forum suffers from topic drift and nostalgia threads 
which make it difficult to see the wood for the trees. If you want to 
indulge in nostalgia then find a space where that is on-topic.





Its much less of a “community” as we have here but new sysprogs and others will 
google questions and there is a lack of material out there.  We could help 
accelerate new training by putting out questions and answers so they are easier 
to find.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Richards, Robert B. (CTR)]

> some of our guys will go on until 70

Some of us are past that! (Going on for 80!!!) 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Crayford
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular 
opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large 
percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to 
retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy 
products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS 
subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that it will take 5 years to bring 
somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are 
all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also 
modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's certainly 
not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to 
Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not smart enough, they 
just don't want to.

On 14/2/22 10:10 pm, René Jansen wrote:
> It is not so much about capitalism as it is about respectful use of language 
> to describe groups of people. 
> https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/ 
> <https://features.propublica.org/ibm/ibm-age-discrimination-american-workers/>
>  shows that the problem is not exactly new but that the outrage then was 
> limited to terms like ‘grey hairs and old heads’. The following part is 
> interesting:
>
> "By the time IBM’s current CEO, Virginia “Ginni” Rometty, took over in 2012, 
> the company had shifted its personnel focus to millennials.
> Rometty launched a major overhaul that aimed to make IBM a major player in 
> the emerging technologies of cloud services, big data analytics, mobile, 
> security and social media, or what came to be known inside as CAMS.
> At the same time, she sought to sharply increase hiring of people born after 
> 1980.
> “CAMS are driven by Millennial Traits,” declared a slide presentation for an 
> invitation-only IBM event in New York in December 2014. Not only were 
> millennials in sync with the new technologies, but they were also attuned to 
> the collaborative, consensus-driven modes of work these technologies 
> demanded, company researchers said they’d discovered. Millennials “are not 
> likely to make decisions in isolation,” the presentation said, but instead 
> “depend on analytic technologies to help them.”
> By contrast, people 50 or over are “more dubious” of analytics, “place less 
> stock in the advantages data offers,” and are less “motivated to consult 
> their colleagues or get their buy in … It’s Baby Boomers who are the 
> outliers.”
> The message was clear. To succeed at the new technologies, the company must, 
> in the words of the presentation, “become one with the Millennial mindset.” 
> Similar language found its way into a variety of IBM presentations in 
> subsequent years.”
>
> A company’s workforce needs to be sustained by its earnings - this was even 
> true in socialism and that is what ended it in eastern europe - you cannot 
> sell your grain and eat it -  and IBM needed to focus on its earnings. Where 
> earlier cash flow and earnings were based on scientific research (much of it 
> publicly financed at universities) and government/defence contracts (publicly 
> financed) and an exemplary execution of those contracts with military 
> precision  (which led to the tendency of dictating customers what they needed 
> in a command and control like structure) lead them to neglect the market and 
> think they could fill in the parts they missed (mini computers and personal 
> computers (the original PC, developed mainly by IBM'ers but outside of IBM, 
> was an outlier, the MCA/OS2 time did show it did not learn a lot, as did OCO) 
> without their earnings suffering. But this was not to be, and focus needed to 
> shift to cost.
>
> This was the time that IBM noticed it did not need a lot of managers that 
> flew around the world and ordered five newspapers to read for their top tier 
> hotel rooms. But closing down scientific centers, not having trickle down 
> their knowledge by opening source and interesting students for it, dried up 
> the sources of that competitive edge. The CAMS, as indicated above, might 
> very well be concepts that other companies  can execute better than IBM, how 
> many companies it buys or dinosaurs it offloads.  I have more trust in the 
> new chip design than in all of big data in the cloud on social medi

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Farley, Peter x23353]

I have to disagree with you on this point:

"While it's certainly not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain 
a HLASM programmer to Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're 
not smart enough, they just don't want to."

Maybe I am an exception (though I tend to doubt it) but I thoroughly enjoy 
learning about new technologies, and I have been in the mainframe programming 
business since 1968 (at IBM as a co-op student worker in college).

Lately I have been doing quite a lot of python and bash shell programming 
solving "challenges" on IBM's zXplore site and having a great time learning a 
bunch of new (to me) stuff.

I believe that there are a great deal more folk "out here" that would enjoy 
learning "new stuff" if only they were given the opportunity to do so.

YMMV of course, but I wanted to make the point that not ALL "old timers" are 
technophobes of the "new stuff".

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Crayford
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 3:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. It may be an unpopular 
opinion, but it's important to concentrate on millenials now. A large 
percentage of developers in my location are in their 60s and close to 
retirement. It's not easy to train young people to back-fill as our legacy 
products are written in HLASM and require deep technical knowledge of MVS 
subsystems. It's optimistic to speculate that it will take 5 years to bring 
somebody up to speed when it's probably more like 10. We hope that now we are 
all working from home that some of our guys will go on until 70. We are also 
modernizing our products and for that we need young guys. While it's certainly 
not impossible, it's certainly very difficult to retrain a HLASM programmer to 
Java, Python, Javascript etc. It's not because they're not smart enough, they 
just don't want to.
-- 


This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Matt Hogstrom]

I’d suggest / welcome others to join  StackOverflow, SuperUser and ServerFault. 
 The tags you are most interested in would be [mainframe,zos,cobol,db2]   
Server fault also to a lesser extent.  StackOverflow is more of a programming 
site and SuperUser is more system administration.  Server Fault has a mix of 
questions too.  It would be powerful for us to post our questions there and 
answer them as well.  That way z/OS and the mainframe will be more discoverable 
by Google.

Its much less of a “community” as we have here but new sysprogs and others will 
google questions and there is a lack of material out there.  We could help 
accelerate new training by putting out questions and answers so they are easier 
to find.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Feb 14, 2022, at 3:25 PM, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> You make some good points in this post. None of us on this forum are getting 
> any younger and IBM-MAIN doesn't seem to attract young people who prefer 
> platforms like Stack Overflow or Slack workspaces. 


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[David Crayford]

competition), focusing on strong 
points, making sure these strong points are supported by influx in the labour 
markets (not really defined by age groups, geography or other grouping, but by 
talent if possible), and offering the people that made operating the company 
possible something more than insults, would be a good strategy. In the end, 
these remarks reflect on the top level managers and their own actions over the 
years.

best regards,

René.




On 14 Feb 2022, at 14:10, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think or 
care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism does.



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

I never saw that attributed to Mark Twain before. I have seen it attributed to 
both Oscar Wilde and George Bernard Shaw.
Perhaps the corollary is useful too.

"Youth is wasted on the young and wisdom wasted on the old.".

Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
https://rsclweb.com 
‘Dance like no one is watching. Encrypt like everyone is.’

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Matt Hogstrom
Sent: 14 February 2022 15:59
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Too bad that youth is wasted on the young — Mark Twain

m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Feb 14, 2022, at 6:11 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimina
> tion.html
> 
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older 
> workers, mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the 
> ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
> 
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent 
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They 
> really don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A 
> real threat for us.”
> 
> Joe
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Matt Hogstrom]

Too bad that youth is wasted on the young — Mark Twain

m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Feb 14, 2022, at 6:11 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
> 
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
> 
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
> 
> Joe
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Matt Hogstrom]

The challenge there is IBM, like Disney with regard to their classics in the 
vault, didn’t see the value on using that tech to expand markets, they wanted 
to “keep” is and lots the market.  Micro-channel anyone ?  It’s not just IBM, 
its the Innovator’s Dilemma.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom

> On Feb 14, 2022, at 7:29 AM, Colin Paice  wrote:
> 
> I said "that was old technology on the vm/360 systems in 1977 when I joined
> IBM".


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Matt Hogstrom]

Interesting … too bad I don’t subscribe to the NYT, sounds like a good read.  
Between the lines it sounds like the next generation of IBMers are woke and are 
willing to discard those that have years of value.  Probably no different than 
in years past for many companies.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom

> On Feb 14, 2022, at 6:11 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
> 
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
> 
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
> 
> Joe
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bob Bridges]

Ah, "more expensive" vs "less expensive", now that IS capitalism -- and 
perfectly rational, if one balances cost and benefit.  I mean, if you get rid 
of your experienced and competent more-expensive workers and keep your less 
experience but incompetent ones, you may find yourself regretting the choice 
soon afterwand.

But if the EFFECT is to discriminate against older employees, I can't find 
fault with that; what interests me is the intent, legally speaking.

...Although I speak from the safety of contracting.  My income seems to be 
secure, in that I don't depend on a single employer.  So maybe it's too easy 
for me to blithely make fine distinctions.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of 
Paul.  -George Bernard Shaw */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 07:59

The cycle of replacing higher priced workers with lower cost ones always 
happens. Exactly what capitalism is designed to do.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bob Bridges]

Yep.  Although I wouldn't blame this on capitalism per se, just humans.  When 
you read some of those emails -- that crack about "dinobabies", for example -- 
it isn't necessary to think this represents the view of IBM generally.  All 
those documents prove is that youngsters wrote them.  And there are always 
youngsters who assume that "old" and "fogey" go together by definition.  This 
is not shocking; it's been going on as long as humanity.

Then the youngsters get older, they learn a lot of stuff, and are first 
shocked, then amused, to discover that's it's HAPPENING AGAIN!

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The only thing more expensive than a properly trained soldier is an 
improperly trained dead one.  -Robert A Heinlein */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 07:43

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does. 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[René Jansen]

t; What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
> there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
> This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.
> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> 
> I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher 
> priced workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism 
> is designed to do.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
> When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
> door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are 
> seeing is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what 
> capitalism does in a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what 
> socialism does.
> 
> In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
> against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.
> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...
> 
> When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really 
> think or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are 
> shocked & dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly 
> what capitalism does.
> 


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Then there was no need for the 1967 age discrimination law! LOL I’m not 
confusing anything. This article is a continuation of the age discrimination 
lawsuit filed by IBM employees in 2018. Most companies do it to maximize 
profits since profits make the stock price go up and the executives and 
shareholders benefit when profits go up. Cash flow can be positive or negative.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:34 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave.. 


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dfMy-SfHe1W2vtmpin7YZFmlHchVzEsEnrLinBorh28FKFlMXYGVvu6XH39F0mXTmI_0EEDnePoRd59BgGFUYlInDZj4cS4Lah_KXFSDtt4ROhIKGRu4NEQ5PP3UsGQjqFHpdEYswnDm9LBxXAamuNg9S1GEUV5Xd75UDlGGgedxhOCZhv37kD5OHRnPJfuTlH207FfjDimbiCt9oGHke9YUzhL3BUE28iRAQL7aVI42XlDOVPwLng4LOEppKFyHha1mJtpHDKiZ_-ZsCk_iAB127QAl8hxn5x3mEFA8jNKMudxxjJlZuA1BG3Zjb6tI6ShXov17AD0rzHnNdow0wwrSm3CEnsajFcU_0x_NwVOVg6Q0x_3ViP6uVuFseE31b9B74gWpZsDmQ8JOyH4adN--CvB4KrmojXi7pmufHIYZ5US2wvg1DMwEV8qfoPFgf1sjdkWwdFJ_1xB4J2iepA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
&g

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

You're confusing cash flow with profits. Unless there are external constraints, 
wages don't increase by themselves. The natural behavior in capitalism is to 
not give raises unless it would cost you more for the employee to leave.. 


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 8:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dfMy-SfHe1W2vtmpin7YZFmlHchVzEsEnrLinBorh28FKFlMXYGVvu6XH39F0mXTmI_0EEDnePoRd59BgGFUYlInDZj4cS4Lah_KXFSDtt4ROhIKGRu4NEQ5PP3UsGQjqFHpdEYswnDm9LBxXAamuNg9S1GEUV5Xd75UDlGGgedxhOCZhv37kD5OHRnPJfuTlH207FfjDimbiCt9oGHke9YUzhL3BUE28iRAQL7aVI42XlDOVPwLng4LOEppKFyHha1mJtpHDKiZ_-ZsCk_iAB127QAl8hxn5x3mEFA8jNKMudxxjJlZuA1BG3Zjb6tI6ShXov17AD0rzHnNdow0wwrSm3CEnsajFcU_0x_NwVOVg6Q0x_3ViP6uVuFseE31b9B74gWpZsDmQ8JOyH4adN--CvB4KrmojXi7pmufHIYZ5US2wvg1DMwEV8qfoPFgf1sjdkWwdFJ_1xB4J2iepA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

Profits are maximized by getting rid of the older, higher cost (wages & health 
care) employees and hiring younger lower cost ones. Pretty standard capitalism.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 8:05 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dfMy-SfHe1W2vtmpin7YZFmlHchVzEsEnrLinBorh28FKFlMXYGVvu6XH39F0mXTmI_0EEDnePoRd59BgGFUYlInDZj4cS4Lah_KXFSDtt4ROhIKGRu4NEQ5PP3UsGQjqFHpdEYswnDm9LBxXAamuNg9S1GEUV5Xd75UDlGGgedxhOCZhv37kD5OHRnPJfuTlH207FfjDimbiCt9oGHke9YUzhL3BUE28iRAQL7aVI42XlDOVPwLng4LOEppKFyHha1mJtpHDKiZ_-ZsCk_iAB127QAl8hxn5x3mEFA8jNKMudxxjJlZuA1BG3Zjb6tI6ShXov17AD0rzHnNdow0wwrSm3CEnsajFcU_0x_NwVOVg6Q0x_3ViP6uVuFseE31b9B74gWpZsDmQ8JOyH4adN--CvB4KrmojXi7pmufHIYZ5US2wvg1DMwEV8qfoPFgf1sjdkWwdFJ_1xB4J2iepA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

No, capitalism is designed to maximize profits. Out of control speculation has 
shifted the emphasis to cash flow, which would have appalled Adam Smith.

What happens in a rational market is that employees don't give raises unless 
there is a labor shortage, and that employers try to keep productive workers. 
This is especially true when they've spent a lot of money on training.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dfMy-SfHe1W2vtmpin7YZFmlHchVzEsEnrLinBorh28FKFlMXYGVvu6XH39F0mXTmI_0EEDnePoRd59BgGFUYlInDZj4cS4Lah_KXFSDtt4ROhIKGRu4NEQ5PP3UsGQjqFHpdEYswnDm9LBxXAamuNg9S1GEUV5Xd75UDlGGgedxhOCZhv37kD5OHRnPJfuTlH207FfjDimbiCt9oGHke9YUzhL3BUE28iRAQL7aVI42XlDOVPwLng4LOEppKFyHha1mJtpHDKiZ_-ZsCk_iAB127QAl8hxn5x3mEFA8jNKMudxxjJlZuA1BG3Zjb6tI6ShXov17AD0rzHnNdow0wwrSm3CEnsajFcU_0x_NwVOVg6Q0x_3ViP6uVuFseE31b9B74gWpZsDmQ8JOyH4adN--CvB4KrmojXi7pmufHIYZ5US2wvg1DMwEV8qfoPFgf1sjdkWwdFJ_1xB4J2iepA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Kirk Wolf]

I wonder if "dinobabies" is trademarked?  ibm-main is pretty nondescript. ;-)

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022, at 6:11 AM, Joe Monk wrote:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
> 
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
> 
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
> 
> Joe
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

I didn't see any comments that looked out of line. Could you quote what you're 
referring to? Thanks.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Horein [steve.hor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1P4ambHximlw4qw4kikV9IQv0nCzq4n_fJssDZrcm5-4n2Xy-NP7ti6s5fnz8vc9iHcklVVBB1u31eicoJl67_9RlJSbbIsjdwcyhF1V4f9ACGgwf1qtUcFE3zU8Q7m9tT-E87fsoW3PDRwFDsNBaPfCxx3Lsoo-umgxKugmYw3l0V8TzysGKE6gnARohjqg6ZXeEZ8ZDOrqIUYZj7IpdkhJO0p6QqsW0yHnDLt0LU6nveeJXeEp2-RVLpFA_5fepOlsltwmTOWdZ0E6JHrzLpRbYy_Pzungg0HMrgO8qB8SCzUDSAVYzYy2W797_KeR013dH-t4wUYJq5veM7Iq7k9GhlDeuwT5t5kYc8YuO9oqjTGE7tGCeAcEbfhAFqt9pChNu99x4y34wtdl7xzI9ikNEvAh54UDqEeorHc9piYPa4NOOp0JPJS9SJEmqXYNlxhNrbSu_Znyuvzeg00UQUw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

I didn’t say YOU pushed them out the door. The cycle of replacing higher priced 
workers with lower cost ones always happens. Exactly what capitalism is 
designed to do.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:55 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dfMy-SfHe1W2vtmpin7YZFmlHchVzEsEnrLinBorh28FKFlMXYGVvu6XH39F0mXTmI_0EEDnePoRd59BgGFUYlInDZj4cS4Lah_KXFSDtt4ROhIKGRu4NEQ5PP3UsGQjqFHpdEYswnDm9LBxXAamuNg9S1GEUV5Xd75UDlGGgedxhOCZhv37kD5OHRnPJfuTlH207FfjDimbiCt9oGHke9YUzhL3BUE28iRAQL7aVI42XlDOVPwLng4LOEppKFyHha1mJtpHDKiZ_-ZsCk_iAB127QAl8hxn5x3mEFA8jNKMudxxjJlZuA1BG3Zjb6tI6ShXov17AD0rzHnNdow0wwrSm3CEnsajFcU_0x_NwVOVg6Q0x_3ViP6uVuFseE31b9B74gWpZsDmQ8JOyH4adN--CvB4KrmojXi7pmufHIYZ5US2wvg1DMwEV8qfoPFgf1sjdkWwdFJ_1xB4J2iepA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

When I was young, I worked with older employees; I did not push them out the 
door. Further, there are legal limits on age discrimination. What we are seeing 
is the triumph of cash flow over profits, and it is not what capitalism does in 
a rational environment, any more than the gulag is what socialism does.

In fact, there have been times and places where capitalism discriminated 
against younger workers and, as above, that was not intrinsic to capitalism.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1dfMy-SfHe1W2vtmpin7YZFmlHchVzEsEnrLinBorh28FKFlMXYGVvu6XH39F0mXTmI_0EEDnePoRd59BgGFUYlInDZj4cS4Lah_KXFSDtt4ROhIKGRu4NEQ5PP3UsGQjqFHpdEYswnDm9LBxXAamuNg9S1GEUV5Xd75UDlGGgedxhOCZhv37kD5OHRnPJfuTlH207FfjDimbiCt9oGHke9YUzhL3BUE28iRAQL7aVI42XlDOVPwLng4LOEppKFyHha1mJtpHDKiZ_-ZsCk_iAB127QAl8hxn5x3mEFA8jNKMudxxjJlZuA1BG3Zjb6tI6ShXov17AD0rzHnNdow0wwrSm3CEnsajFcU_0x_NwVOVg6Q0x_3ViP6uVuFseE31b9B74gWpZsDmQ8JOyH4adN--CvB4KrmojXi7pmufHIYZ5US2wvg1DMwEV8qfoPFgf1sjdkWwdFJ_1xB4J2iepA/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Ftechnology%2Fcomments%2Fsrq7im%2Fibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies%2F

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Bill Johnson]

When we were young, we helped usher out older workers & we didn’t really think 
or care about it. Now that it’s our turn in the ageist barrel, we are shocked & 
dismayed. As Steve said, not really surprising. This is exactly what capitalism 
does. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, February 14, 2022, 7:36 AM, Steve Horein  
wrote:

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/srq7im/ibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies/

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Steve Horein]

Not really surprising, but I did not see much empathy for those older
employees (or IBM in general) in the comments of this topic on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/srq7im/ibm_executives_called_older_workers_dinobabies/

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 5:12 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Colin Paice]

Ahh the ignorance of youth.
I remember someone enthusiastically explaining to me about VMWARE and how
they could run different windows images on the same hardware at the same
time.
I said "that was old technology on the vm/360 systems in 1977 when I joined
IBM".

*"Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.*” Winston
Churchill.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 at 12:14, René Jansen 
wrote:

> It’s that it is now documented and in the newspapers - but is anybody
> really surprised?
>
> Of course it is a disgrace that people who were using VNET and fora when
> current management sh*t their diapers are now accused of ’not understanding
> social’.
>
> It perfectly jibes with that irrational attack on older but better tools
> and the quarterly focus on passing fads.
>
> best regards,
>
> René.
>
>
> > On 14 Feb 2022, at 12:11, Joe Monk  wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
> >
> > "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> > mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> > species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
> >
> > A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> > allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> > don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> > for us.”
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[Seymour J Metz]

"Every generation thinks that it invented sex."

There are plenty of flexible older workers and inflexible younger workers. I 
wonder whether they will wind up hiring hordes of "young fogies" and be puzzled 
by the inevitable consequences.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 7:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Holy Moly ...

It’s that it is now documented and in the newspapers - but is anybody really 
surprised?

Of course it is a disgrace that people who were using VNET and fora when 
current management sh*t their diapers are now accused of ’not understanding 
social’.

It perfectly jibes with that irrational attack on older but better tools and 
the quarterly focus on passing fads.

best regards,

René.


> On 14 Feb 2022, at 12:11, Joe Monk  wrote:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
>
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
>
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
>
> Joe
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Holy Moly ...

[René Jansen]

It’s that it is now documented and in the newspapers - but is anybody really 
surprised?

Of course it is a disgrace that people who were using VNET and fora when 
current management sh*t their diapers are now accused of ’not understanding 
social’.

It perfectly jibes with that irrational attack on older but better tools and 
the quarterly focus on passing fads. 

best regards,

René.


> On 14 Feb 2022, at 12:11, Joe Monk  wrote:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/12/business/economy/ibm-age-discrimination.html
> 
> "Another email by a top executive, appearing to refer to older workers,
> mentions a plan to “accelerate change by inviting the ‘dinobabies’ (new
> species) to leave” and make them an “extinct species.”
> 
> A third email refers to IBM’s “dated maternal workforce,” an apparent
> allusion to older women, and says: “This is what must change. They really
> don’t understand social or engagement. Not digital natives. A real threat
> for us.”
> 
> Joe
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN