subject:"Re\: Kinda fun"

IBM 550 Numerical Interpreter and IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter.


-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 1:46 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

Stuart Holland wrote, in part:
>Also, the cards only had the punches - no text across the top.

That was called "interpreting" cards, IIRC. I forget whether there was a 
machine to do this (not that a site with no more punches or readers would have 
had one!), but I bet others here will remember.

ObJoke: What, you didn't remember how to just glance at the cards and read the 
punches? (I'm 100% sure that back in the day there were folks who could!)


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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Steve Thompson

Yes, at one time I could read a certain amount of the punches. I 
knew others that could read punch cards and find bad source and 
fix it. I never got that good.


There was an Interpreter that was a big box that you could feed 
cards to and it would print across the top, about 50 of the 80 
column's data, because the character size was too large to do it 
all. I have forgotten the model number of that thing (it was an 
IBM box in the service bureau I worked in). And if I remember 
correctly it also had a plug board so one could handle specialty 
punched cards.


And then there was the verifier/printer, which was very similar 
to a keypunch machine that would read cards and print the 
characters above the columns so you could get all 80 done.


Then while I was in a Univac using agency, they had their own 
versions of those machines. And they did just a bit more than 80 
columns.


Regards,
Steve Thompson

On 11/8/2023 1:46 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:

Stuart Holland wrote, in part:

Also, the cards only had the punches - no text across the top.

That was called "interpreting" cards, IIRC. I forget whether there was a 
machine to do this (not that a site with no more punches or readers would have had one!), 
but I bet others here will remember.

ObJoke: What, you didn't remember how to just glance at the cards and read the 
punches? (I'm 100% sure that back in the day there were folks who could!)


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Re: Kinda fun

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 13:46:09 -0500, Phil Smith III wrote:

>Stuart Holland wrote, in part:
>>Also, the cards only had the punches - no text across the top. 
>
>That was called "interpreting" cards, IIRC. I forget whether there was a 
>machine to do this (not that a site with no more punches or readers would have 
>had one!), but I bet others here will remember.
>

550 Interpreter?  (Many hits fail with 404.)
Q   What was the IBM 550?   
A   Introduced in 1930, the IBM 550 Automatic 
Interpreter was the first commercial IBM machine capable of sensing numerical 
data punched in cards and printing such data across the top of each card. The 
information to be printed could be placed in any sequence. The machine 
automatically interpreted at the rate of 75 cards a minute or 4,500 cards an 
hour. The feeding hopper had a capacity of 800 cards, and the stacker in which 
the interpreted cards were deposited had a capacity of 1,000 cards.

"placed in any sequence."  But not aligned with the holes, if that mattered.

1930!

-- 
gil

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Phil Smith III

Stuart Holland wrote, in part:
>Also, the cards only had the punches - no text across the top. 

That was called "interpreting" cards, IIRC. I forget whether there was a 
machine to do this (not that a site with no more punches or readers would have 
had one!), but I bet others here will remember.

ObJoke: What, you didn't remember how to just glance at the cards and read the 
punches? (I'm 100% sure that back in the day there were folks who could!)


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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Stuart Holland

Products from UCC (at least, UCC7 and UCC11) came in source form with line 
numbers. Fixes came in IEBUPDTE form to insert lines by line number. When a new 
release came out, they would tell you which programs were renumbered so you 
would know which local mods you had to rework.

In 1984, we were in the MVS/XA Early Support Program. I worked with the lead 
UCC7 programmer on changes that were needed. He then took what he learned back 
to the UCC11 developers and they sent someone out one weekend to implement the 
changes they had developed. We were going to make the changes and do the test 
on a Sunday afternoon when we had test time for XA. The person brought punch 
cards with the updates. By that time, we did not have card readers. Also, the 
cards only had the punches - no text across the top. We spent a couple hours 
finding something we could use to dial into the UCC system and get access to 
the code, which we could then type into our system.

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Michael Oujesky

And the discussions about whether each person needed a 3270 terminal 
at  their desk or whether a room of shared terminals were 
sufficient.  Abd the running of all the coax through the ceiings.

Michael

At 10:30 AM 11/8/2023, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:07:14 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>I found that it took less time to punch my own programs than to 
have the keypunch operators do it; as you noted, errors.

>
At times the bottleneck is the number of available keypunches and 
the dedicated

keypunch operators have higher throughput.

--
gil

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Mike Schwab

Sparkler Filters using IBM 402 in 2010 with no migration plan.
https://ibm-1401.info/402.html

On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 11:28 AM Paul Gilmartin
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 17:03:28 +, Schmitt, Michael  wrote:
>
> >Are we violating the "no reminiscing" rule?
> >
> Probably.
>
> >What's the latest that people still used punched cards and/or paper tape?
> >
> I recall voting, i believe in the current century, on punched cards that
> appeared to be conventional 80-column format.  Each punch spanned
> two "columns" of one "row".  They could probably have been read with
> a minimally modified 1402.
>
> This week I used a mark sense ballot.  No special pencil.
>
> --
> gil
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Kinda fun

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 17:03:28 +, Schmitt, Michael  wrote:

>Are we violating the "no reminiscing" rule?
>
Probably.

>What's the latest that people still used punched cards and/or paper tape?
>
I recall voting, i believe in the current century, on punched cards that
appeared to be conventional 80-column format.  Each punch spanned
two "columns" of one "row".  They could probably have been read with
a minimally modified 1402.

This week I used a mark sense ballot.  No special pencil.

-- 
gil

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Cameron Conacher

I have very vague recollections of 51 column punch cards supporting bank charge 
cards in the mid seventies. (ChargeEx I think)
As a Waterloo coop student, I remember feeding boxes and boxes of these into a 
special card reader during overnight batch processing runs.
I think these were mostly from gas stations.


Thanks

...Cameron

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 12:03 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

Are we violating the "no reminiscing" rule? What's the latest that people still 
used punched cards and/or paper tape? In the 80's I worked at a photofinishing 
plant that still used punched cards and paper tape as part of the processing 
work


Are we violating the "no reminiscing" rule?





What's the latest that people still used punched cards and/or paper tape?



In the 80's I worked at a photofinishing plant that still used punched cards 
and paper tape as part of the processing work flow. Punched cards were put in 
the processing envelope pouch, were updated at when the number of prints was 
determined, and fed the billing system at the end. Paper tape was used to 
control the which negatives were reprinted or enlarged.







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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Schmitt, Michael

Are we violating the "no reminiscing" rule?


What's the latest that people still used punched cards and/or paper tape?

In the 80's I worked at a photofinishing plant that still used punched cards 
and paper tape as part of the processing work flow. Punched cards were put in 
the processing envelope pouch, were updated at when the number of prints was 
determined, and fed the billing system at the end. Paper tape was used to 
control the which negatives were reprinted or enlarged.



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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Bill Hitefield

Yep. (Late 70s) That's what we used when we modified JES2 and/or added our own 
commands to it. IEBUPDTE was a hoot.

In college in the 70s we used the punch-card punchouts as "briefcase filler" 
when playing jokes on each other in the computer lab. We spent way too much 
time in the lab (an IBM 1130), but we had a blast.

Bill Hitefield

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2023 11:05 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Kinda fun
> 
> IEBUPDTE updates based on sequence number in column 73-80.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 8:39 AM Bob Bridges 
> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, Shmuel, I'm curious.  Dropped decks are the only reason I ever
> > heard, back when I was a $HASP operator.  What's the more important
> reason?
> >
> > (Mostly when customers brought huge decks of cards, two or three or
> > four boxes sometimes, each card was a single row of a database, so the
> > order didn't necessarily matter.  But with program code, sure.)
> >
> > ---
> > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> > /* You know you've had too much coffee when
> > Juan Valdez names his donkey after you.
> > You've worn out the handle on your favorite coffee mug.
> > Your eyes stay open when you sneeze. */
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 07:26
> >
> > People were using sequence numbers for editing before SPF. Dropped
> > decks is but one of several reasons, and, IMHO, not the most important.
> >
> > --
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> 
> 
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
> 
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Re: Kinda fun

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 12:07:14 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>I found that it took less time to punch my own programs than to have the 
>keypunch operators do it; as you noted, errors.
>
At times the bottleneck is the number of available keypunches and the dedicated
keypunch operators have higher throughput.

-- 
gil

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Re: Kinda fun

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 10:05:04 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:

>IEBUPDTE updates based on sequence number in column 73-80.
>https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.1.0?topic=examples-example-6-create-update-library-member
>
Nowadays there are better tools.


-- 
gil

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Re: Kinda fun

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 09:10:54 -0500, Phil Smith III wrote:
>
>Bob, your musing about communications parameters sounds like full/half duplex.
> 
Mind the difference between half duplex and local echo.  The former used only
a single current loop and pressing a key during output caused garbled output
and perhaps a detected error.  With local echo, keystrokes are transmitted
correctly to the host (possible carrier frequency multiplexing) and the host may
buffer or ignore them.

Stty  reports "echo"/"noecho".

-- 
gil

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Mike Schwab

IEBUPDTE updates based on sequence number in column 73-80.
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.1.0?topic=examples-example-6-create-update-library-member

On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 8:39 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Ok, Shmuel, I'm curious.  Dropped decks are the only reason I ever heard,
> back when I was a $HASP operator.  What's the more important reason?
>
> (Mostly when customers brought huge decks of cards, two or three or four
> boxes sometimes, each card was a single row of a database, so the order
> didn't necessarily matter.  But with program code, sure.)
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* You know you've had too much coffee when
> Juan Valdez names his donkey after you.
> You've worn out the handle on your favorite coffee mug.
> Your eyes stay open when you sneeze. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 07:26
>
> People were using sequence numbers for editing before SPF. Dropped decks is
> but one of several reasons, and, IMHO, not the most important.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Farley, Peter

Apologies, 1403N1, not 1401 

From: Farley, Peter
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:59 AM
To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
Subject: RE: Kinda fun

1401N1 printer (the big beast) raised its hood automatically when it ran out of 
paper, no way to turn off that behavior.  NEVER put your coffee cup on top of 
that printer!!

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

I'm trying to remember, 'cause I was a $HASP operator, briefly, back in 
college.  Let's see, that was a drum printer (not a chain).  But why would the 
hood be pushed up when it ran out of paper?  I can't picture what would be 
going on there.

---

Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com<mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com>, cell 336 
382-7313

/* If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs 
when it is free!  -P J O'Rourke */

-Original Message-

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of 
Cameron Conacher

Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:38

Anyone else recall….

Have the HASP operator read your JOB Deck, Walking over to the printer to 
collect your output Waiting for the output, and setting your card deck on the 
printer The printer running out of paper and the hood rises up Your card deck 
is spilled all over the floor

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Michael Oujesky

And the trip to the TAB sorter to reconstruct the deck.

Michael

At 09:37 AM 11/8/2023, Cameron Conacher wrote:

Anyone else recall.
Have the HASP operator read your JOB Deck,
Walking over to the printer to collect your output
Waiting for the output, and setting your card deck on the printer
The printer running out of paper and the hood rises up
Your card deck is spilled all over the floor

Thanks

.Cameron

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 On Behalf Of Michael Oujesky

Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

Sequence numbers could also be used for 
implementing a new release of vendor software 
that had been customized by in-house 
modifications. By comparing the old/new/in-house 
code you could identify which programs needed no conversion effort.â

Sequence numbers could also be used for implementing a new release of

vendor software that had been customized by in-house

modifications.  By comparing the old/new/in-house code you could

identify which programs needed no conversion effort. which programs

could be automatically adapted to the new release, which needed no

code changes, and those that required manual interpretation of the

releases changes versus in-house modifications.

separately. SYSLOG still has a 133 record length left over from the

360 days when the console was a 1050 typewriter using pin-fed

green-bar paper.  Though SAMPLIB(IEAMDBLG) can be modified to provide

SYSLOG from OPERLOG with a longer record length and do away with split lines.

Michael

At 08:38 AM 11/8/2023, Bob Bridges wrote:

>Ok, Shmuel, I'm curious.  Dropped decks are the only reason I ever heard,

>back when I was a $HASP operator.  What's the more important reason?

>

>(Mostly when customers brought huge decks of cards, two or three or four

>boxes sometimes, each card was a single row of a database, so the order

>didn't necessarily matter.  But with program code, sure.)

>

>---

>Bob Bridges, 
robhbrid...@gmail.com<mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com>, cell 336 382-7313

>

>/* You know you've had too much coffee when

> Juan Valdez names his donkey after you.

> You've worn out the handle on your favorite coffee mug.

> Your eyes stay open when you sneeze. */

>

>-Original Message-

>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of

>Seymour J Metz

>Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 07:26

>

>People were using sequence numbers for editing before SPF. Dropped decks is

>but one of several reasons, and, IMHO, not the most important.

>

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Farley, Peter

1401N1 printer (the big beast) raised its hood automatically when it ran out of 
paper, no way to turn off that behavior.  NEVER put your coffee cup on top of 
that printer!!

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

I'm trying to remember, 'cause I was a $HASP operator, briefly, back in 
college.  Let's see, that was a drum printer (not a chain).  But why would the 
hood be pushed up when it ran out of paper?  I can't picture what would be 
going on there.

---

Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com<mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com>, cell 336 
382-7313

/* If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs 
when it is free!  -P J O'Rourke */

-Original Message-

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of 
Cameron Conacher

Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:38

Anyone else recall….

Have the HASP operator read your JOB Deck, Walking over to the printer to 
collect your output Waiting for the output, and setting your card deck on the 
printer The printer running out of paper and the hood rises up Your card deck 
is spilled all over the floor

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Cameron Conacher

A hundred years ago, we had the IBM 1403 line printers.
When the box of paper ran out, the printer hood automatically raised and we 
would kick the empty box out and drop in a new full box.
Press the close hood button, and then the printer would continue printing.
Maybe the was a printer online button as well. I forget now.

Thanks

…….Cameron

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

I'm trying to remember, 'cause I was a $HASP operator, briefly, back in 
college. Let's see, that was a drum printer (not a chain). But why would the 
hood be pushed up when it ran out of paper? I can't picture what would be going 
on there. ---


I'm trying to remember, 'cause I was a $HASP operator, briefly, back in 
college.  Let's see, that was a drum printer (not a chain).  But why would the 
hood be pushed up when it ran out of paper?  I can't picture what would be 
going on there.



---

Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com<mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com>, cell 336 
382-7313



/* If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs 
when it is free!  -P J O'Rourke */



-Original Message-

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of 
Cameron Conacher

Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:38



Anyone else recall….

Have the HASP operator read your JOB Deck, Walking over to the printer to 
collect your output Waiting for the output, and setting your card deck on the 
printer The printer running out of paper and the hood rises up Your card deck 
is spilled all over the floor



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Re: Kinda fun

I'm trying to remember, 'cause I was a $HASP operator, briefly, back in 
college.  Let's see, that was a drum printer (not a chain).  But why would the 
hood be pushed up when it ran out of paper?  I can't picture what would be 
going on there.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs 
when it is free!  -P J O'Rourke */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Cameron Conacher
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:38

Anyone else recall….
Have the HASP operator read your JOB Deck, Walking over to the printer to 
collect your output Waiting for the output, and setting your card deck on the 
printer The printer running out of paper and the hood rises up Your card deck 
is spilled all over the floor

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Cameron Conacher

Anyone else recall….
Have the HASP operator read your JOB Deck,
Walking over to the printer to collect your output
Waiting for the output, and setting your card deck on the printer
The printer running out of paper and the hood rises up
Your card deck is spilled all over the floor

Thanks

…….Cameron

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Michael Oujesky
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 10:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

Sequence numbers could also be used for implementing a new release of vendor 
software that had been customized by in-house modifications. By comparing the 
old/new/in-house code you could identify which programs needed no conversion 
effort. 

Sequence numbers could also be used for implementing a new release of

vendor software that had been customized by in-house

modifications.  By comparing the old/new/in-house code you could

identify which programs needed no conversion effort. which programs

could be automatically adapted to the new release, which needed no

code changes, and those that required manual interpretation of the

releases changes versus in-house modifications.

separately. SYSLOG still has a 133 record length left over from the

360 days when the console was a 1050 typewriter using pin-fed

green-bar paper.  Though SAMPLIB(IEAMDBLG) can be modified to provide

SYSLOG from OPERLOG with a longer record length and do away with split lines.

Michael

At 08:38 AM 11/8/2023, Bob Bridges wrote:

>Ok, Shmuel, I'm curious.  Dropped decks are the only reason I ever heard,

>back when I was a $HASP operator.  What's the more important reason?

>

>(Mostly when customers brought huge decks of cards, two or three or four

>boxes sometimes, each card was a single row of a database, so the order

>didn't necessarily matter.  But with program code, sure.)

>

>---

>Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com<mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com>, cell 336 
>382-7313

>

>/* You know you've had too much coffee when

> Juan Valdez names his donkey after you.

> You've worn out the handle on your favorite coffee mug.

> Your eyes stay open when you sneeze. */

>

>-Original Message-

>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of

>Seymour J Metz

>Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 07:26

>

>People were using sequence numbers for editing before SPF. Dropped decks is

>but one of several reasons, and, IMHO, not the most important.

>

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Michael Oujesky

Sequence numbers could also be used for implementing a new release of 
vendor software that had been customized by in-house 
modifications.  By comparing the old/new/in-house code you could 
identify which programs needed no conversion effort. which programs 
could be automatically adapted to the new release, which needed no 
code changes, and those that required manual interpretation of the 
releases changes versus in-house modifications.


separately. SYSLOG still has a 133 record length left over from the 
360 days when the console was a 1050 typewriter using pin-fed 
green-bar paper.  Though SAMPLIB(IEAMDBLG) can be modified to provide 
SYSLOG from OPERLOG with a longer record length and do away with split lines.


Michael

At 08:38 AM 11/8/2023, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ok, Shmuel, I'm curious.  Dropped decks are the only reason I ever heard,
back when I was a $HASP operator.  What's the more important reason?

(Mostly when customers brought huge decks of cards, two or three or four
boxes sometimes, each card was a single row of a database, so the order
didn't necessarily matter.  But with program code, sure.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* You know you've had too much coffee when
Juan Valdez names his donkey after you.
You've worn out the handle on your favorite coffee mug.
Your eyes stay open when you sneeze. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 07:26

People were using sequence numbers for editing before SPF. Dropped decks is
but one of several reasons, and, IMHO, not the most important.

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Re: Kinda fun

Let's see, how many nanoseconds is that again?

(Sorry, I'll go sit in a corner now.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men know what they want.  If they're in a bicycle store, they ask the
question, "which one is the best?"  And that's the one they want.  If they
are in the chainsaw store, they want the best chainsaw.  You never see a man
holding a chainsaw and frowning, saying, "I can't decide.  Maybe what I want
instead is a guppy."  -from _Why Men Don't Shop_ by W Bruce Cameron */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Allan Staller
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 09:31

A similar story at Hughes Aircraft up until the mid 90's. One (1) user
insisted on use of punched cards. This is in pre-ficon days.  Unfortunately,
the data center did not have the cojones to charge the user.  The day he
retired, the project was initiated to remove the keypunches and disconnect
the 2503(?) card/reader punch.

In those days, the limit on bus/tag cables was 200 ft (cumulative). IIRC,
that particular block multiplexer was running about 190 ft.  De-installing
the 2503 saved about 125 ft.

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Re: Kinda fun

Reminds me of an old tagline:

/* The more sophisticated the technology, the more vulnerable it is to 
primitive attack. People often overlook the obvious.  -Dr Who, 1978 */

And also, come to think of it:

/* It is important to realize that any lock can be picked with a big enough 
hammer.  -Sun System & Network Admin manual */

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Rick Troth
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 09:50

One great thing about punched cards (and printed paper, and even such things as 
paper tape) is that they don't suffer degaussing or other such high-tech 
ailments. 
(They have their own /different/ problems.) Cards and printed paper are even 
human readable. Wow.

Let's hear it for low tech and old tech!

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One great thing about punched cards (and printed paper, and even such
things as paper tape)
is that they don't suffer degaussing or other such high-tech ailments.
(They have their own /different/ problems.)

Cards and printed paper are even human readable. Wow.

Let's hear it for low tech and old tech!

-- R; <><

On 11/8/23 09:10, Phil Smith III wrote:

Bob Bridges wrote about his history with keypunches.

Mine started in 1965, when I was four. My dad was working on his first concordance, of Beowulf, and
my mom was going to do the data entry of the text. (They'd met in the 50s when he was working for a
CIA front doing translation and his typist quit. He told them, "I need a new typist, but don't
give me anyone interesting", and when they brought her in, he thought, "Dammit, nobody
listens to me around here!" Nine months later they were married.)

So I got to play with a keypunch at a very young age, and then again starting in 1975 when I sat in
on my dad's PL/C class at the University. I have fond memories of playing outside with a bag of
chad (please, not "chads"-it was a mass noun for 50 years; the 2000 election instantly
made it a count noun, but we old-timers don't have to put up with that). (Jeez, even Office thinks
it should be "chads". Kids today.)

Bob, your musing about communications parameters sounds like full/half duplex.

As for the cost of cards-I bought a few boxes on eBay about a decade ago. Even
then folks were often selling individual cards for several dollars. I still
have a bunch. My dad always had them in his breast pocket for note cards. He'd
also always heard that they were the same size as old U.S. bills, but in the
pre-Internet era had no easy way to verify that. Until one day in the late 80s,
walking in lower Manhattan, he passed a numismatic store that had an old $1
bill taped to the inside of the window. He instantly whipped out a card and
held it up, and sure 'nuff, it was the same size, modulo the clipped corner, of
course!

Keypunches persisted at University of Waterloo until the early 80s, not because the U was
backward, but because ONE prof (not my dad!) insisted on using them. IIRC the I/O
operators (remember them?) tried various stunts, like "accidentally" dropping
his box of cards (only it wasn't really) in front of him and then stepping on them as
they went to pick them up. They finally managed to get approval to tell him HE would have
to pay for the maintenance. That cured it.

Don't misshttps://www.masswerk.at/keypunch/ !

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Pommier, Rex

Full or half duplex, not single or double.  That was the parity bit in my brain 
that got flipped.  

Thanks, Phil.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 8:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Kinda fun

Bob Bridges wrote about his history with keypunches.

Mine started in 1965, when I was four. My dad was working on his first 
concordance, of Beowulf, and my mom was going to do the data entry of the text. 
(They'd met in the 50s when he was working for a CIA front doing translation 
and his typist quit. He told them, "I need a new typist, but don't give me 
anyone interesting", and when they brought her in, he thought, "Dammit, nobody 
listens to me around here!" Nine months later they were married.)

So I got to play with a keypunch at a very young age, and then again starting 
in 1975 when I sat in on my dad's PL/C class at the University. I have fond 
memories of playing outside with a bag of chad (please, not "chads"-it was a 
mass noun for 50 years; the 2000 election instantly made it a count noun, but 
we old-timers don't have to put up with that). (Jeez, even Office thinks it 
should be "chads". Kids today.)

Bob, your musing about communications parameters sounds like full/half duplex.

As for the cost of cards-I bought a few boxes on eBay about a decade ago. Even 
then folks were often selling individual cards for several dollars. I still 
have a bunch. My dad always had them in his breast pocket for note cards. He'd 
also always heard that they were the same size as old U.S. bills, but in the 
pre-Internet era had no easy way to verify that. Until one day in the late 80s, 
walking in lower Manhattan, he passed a numismatic store that had an old $1 
bill taped to the inside of the window. He instantly whipped out a card and 
held it up, and sure 'nuff, it was the same size, modulo the clipped corner, of 
course!

Keypunches persisted at University of Waterloo until the early 80s, not because 
the U was backward, but because ONE prof (not my dad!) insisted on using them. 
IIRC the I/O operators (remember them?) tried various stunts, like 
"accidentally" dropping his box of cards (only it wasn't really) in front of 
him and then stepping on them as they went to pick them up. They finally 
managed to get approval to tell him HE would have to pay for the maintenance. 
That cured it.

Don't miss 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.masswerk.at/keypunch/__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!ufSaokE6hbzq-09wIsJObGdOKh7n1OQ0m3Kq0pXwkcHzmkKfgNbKpSeCZpLJcegYi9wB8FObFeJl6RY$
  !

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Re: Kinda fun

Yes!, that's it.  Thanks.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Every now and then go away, have a little relaxation, for when you come
back to your work your judgment will be surer.  Go some distance away
because then the work appears smaller and more of it can be taken in at a
glance and a lack of harmony and proportion is more readily seen.  -Leonardo
Da Vinci */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 09:11

Bob, your musing about communications parameters sounds like full/half
duplex.

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Re: Kinda fun

Ok, Shmuel, I'm curious.  Dropped decks are the only reason I ever heard,
back when I was a $HASP operator.  What's the more important reason?

(Mostly when customers brought huge decks of cards, two or three or four
boxes sometimes, each card was a single row of a database, so the order
didn't necessarily matter.  But with program code, sure.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* You know you've had too much coffee when
Juan Valdez names his donkey after you.
You've worn out the handle on your favorite coffee mug.
Your eyes stay open when you sneeze. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 07:26

People were using sequence numbers for editing before SPF. Dropped decks is
but one of several reasons, and, IMHO, not the most important.

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Re: Kinda fun

Sure.  And as my dad used to tell me, "Sure, you can do it; but if you make a 
mistake I'll get mad at you, but if I do it myself and make a mistake, I'll 
only be mad at myself".  So I like coding my own statements, even aside from it 
being quicker.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is not fatigue simply as such that produces anger, but unexpected demands 
on a man already tired.  Whatever men expect, they soon come to think they have 
a right to; the sense of disappointment can, with very little skill on our 
part, be turned into a sense of injury.  -advice to a tempter, from The 
Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 07:07

I found that it took less time to punch my own programs than to have the 
keypunch operators do it; as you noted, errors.

The same applies to typing once I had access to FORMAT and, later, SCRIPT.

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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Allan Staller

Classification: Confidential


Keypunches persisted at University of Waterloo until the early 80s, not because 
the U was backward, but because ONE prof (not my dad!) insisted on using them. 
IIRC the I/O operators (remember them?) tried various stunts, like 
"accidentally" dropping his box of cards (only it wasn't really) in front of 
him and then stepping on them


A similar story at Hughes Aircraft up until the mid 90's. One (1) user insisted 
on use of punched cards. This is in pre-ficon days.
Unfortunately, the data center did not have the cojones to charge the user.
The day he retired, the project was initiated to remove the keypunches and 
disconnect the 2503(?) card/reader punch.

In those days, the limit on bus/tag cables was 200 ft (cumulative). IIRC, that 
particular block multiplexer was running about 190 ft.
De-installing the 2503 saved about 125 ft.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 8:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Bob Bridges wrote about his history with keypunches.

Mine started in 1965, when I was four. My dad was working on his first 
concordance, of Beowulf, and my mom was going to do the data entry of the text. 
(They'd met in the 50s when he was working for a CIA front doing translation 
and his typist quit. He told them, "I need a new typist, but don't give me 
anyone interesting", and when they brought her in, he thought, "Dammit, nobody 
listens to me around here!" Nine months later they were married.)

So I got to play with a keypunch at a very young age, and then again starting 
in 1975 when I sat in on my dad's PL/C class at the University. I have fond 
memories of playing outside with a bag of chad (please, not "chads"-it was a 
mass noun for 50 years; the 2000 election instantly made it a count noun, but 
we old-timers don't have to put up with that). (Jeez, even Office thinks it 
should be "chads". Kids today.)

Bob, your musing about communications parameters sounds like full/half duplex.

As for the cost of cards-I bought a few boxes on eBay about a decade ago. Even 
then folks were often selling individual cards for several dollars. I still 
have a bunch. My dad always had them in his breast pocket for note cards. He'd 
also always heard that they were the same size as old U.S. bills, but in the 
pre-Internet era had no easy way to verify that. Until one day in the late 80s, 
walking in lower Manhattan, he passed a numismatic store that had an old $1 
bill taped to the inside of the window. He instantly whipped out a card and 
held it up, and sure 'nuff, it was the same size, modulo the clipped corner, of 
course!

Keypunches persisted at University of Waterloo until the early 80s, not because 
the U was backward, but because ONE prof (not my dad!) insisted on using them. 
IIRC the I/O operators (remember them?) tried various stunts, like 
"accidentally" dropping his box of cards (only it wasn't really) in front of 
him and then stepping on them as they went to pick them up. They finally 
managed to get approval to tell him HE would have to pay for the maintenance. 
That cured it.

Don't miss https://www.masswerk.at/keypunch/ !


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Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Phil Smith III

Bob Bridges wrote about his history with keypunches.

Mine started in 1965, when I was four. My dad was working on his first 
concordance, of Beowulf, and my mom was going to do the data entry of the text. 
(They'd met in the 50s when he was working for a CIA front doing translation 
and his typist quit. He told them, "I need a new typist, but don't give me 
anyone interesting", and when they brought her in, he thought, "Dammit, nobody 
listens to me around here!" Nine months later they were married.)

So I got to play with a keypunch at a very young age, and then again starting 
in 1975 when I sat in on my dad's PL/C class at the University. I have fond 
memories of playing outside with a bag of chad (please, not "chads"-it was a 
mass noun for 50 years; the 2000 election instantly made it a count noun, but 
we old-timers don't have to put up with that). (Jeez, even Office thinks it 
should be "chads". Kids today.)

Bob, your musing about communications parameters sounds like full/half duplex.

As for the cost of cards-I bought a few boxes on eBay about a decade ago. Even 
then folks were often selling individual cards for several dollars. I still 
have a bunch. My dad always had them in his breast pocket for note cards. He'd 
also always heard that they were the same size as old U.S. bills, but in the 
pre-Internet era had no easy way to verify that. Until one day in the late 80s, 
walking in lower Manhattan, he passed a numismatic store that had an old $1 
bill taped to the inside of the window. He instantly whipped out a card and 
held it up, and sure 'nuff, it was the same size, modulo the clipped corner, of 
course!

Keypunches persisted at University of Waterloo until the early 80s, not because 
the U was backward, but because ONE prof (not my dad!) insisted on using them. 
IIRC the I/O operators (remember them?) tried various stunts, like 
"accidentally" dropping his box of cards (only it wasn't really) in front of 
him and then stepping on them as they went to pick them up. They finally 
managed to get approval to tell him HE would have to pay for the maintenance. 
That cured it.

Don't miss https://www.masswerk.at/keypunch/ !


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Pommier, Rex

Hey Bob,

Parity bits were even, odd, or none.  Echo on or off, 1 or 2 stop bits, and the 
one you're forgetting the name thereof was the duplex, single or double.  I 
don't remember which is which, but one of them (single I think) required local 
echo so you could see what was being keyed.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 5:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Kinda fun

That WAS fun!

I preceded that author by, I think, barely a year; I waffled around, changed 
majors twice (Religion, then Music, then Accounting), and reluctantly took one 
computer-programming class (PL/C) in the summer of 75.  It was NOT boring, it 
was incredibly cool and I was instantly hooked.

Punch cards didn't seem onerous to me because I hadn't yet imagined anything 
better.  I learned the technical tricks of the 029 (I don't know, there must 
have been some, no?), then learned how much better the 129 was and thought it 
was 'way cooler.  When not doing homework I sat at a teletype, taught myself 
Basic and FORTRAN, and saved my work on paper tape.  My fiancée resented the 
inordinate amount of time I spent amusing myself writing useless games and 
utilities just because I could.  I finished my degree in Accounting but went 
straight into programming jobs after graduation.  It was a long time before I 
stopped using my flowcharting template, and years more before I stopped feeling 
guilty about coding on the fly without flowcharting first.

So, yeah, I'm happy not to use punch cards now, but I didn't think to dislike 
them then.  I'm even happier not to have to plug a phone handset into a modem - 
but at the time, typing up my long, long letters electronically and sending 
them over a modem to my best friend at the other end of the country was an 
enormous improvement over sitting at my desk and writing them out with a 
fountain pen.

And while we're on the subject, anyone else remember having to establish 
communication parms over a modem?  You had to agree with the other end about 
parity bits, and about some kind of echo that I'm pretty sure we called 
"single" or "double"  something.  Single was when my own terminal displayed 
the key I typed immediately; "dual" or "double" was when it waited until it was 
echoed back from the other end.  The lag was the downside of double; the 
advantage was that I could see what character actually made the trip across the 
chancy phone lines, and could correct errors more reliably.
What was that called?  I forget.

Oh, and the modem protocols: XMODEM, YMODEM, Kermit and the like.  I remember 
when I first got a 2400-baud modem; it transferred text so blindingly fast that 
I almost couldn't read the text as it scrolled on my screen!  For the  first 
time it might be practical to send a 100K file, if you could spare an hour or 
two!

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It's extremely difficult to distinguish a Canadian from an American.  In 
fact the most reliable way of doing so is to make that observation in the 
presence of a Canadian.  -attributed at the Gunroom to a "British man of 
letters" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 16:18

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2023/11/in-bad-old-days-we-had-punc__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!oimg9J3s7FOnrNDMk1B2SCOImuRU5enQjoutTHhN1TwI3cKZwYY7jF8hUfH532CFXyWCDChR31mZFljymRzy0OU$
hcards-how.html

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Kinda fun

2023-11-08 Thread Pommier, Rex

Yup, 5 80-column cards to boot an NCR Century 200.  Kinda wish I still had a 
set of them.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Michael Oujesky
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 6:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Kinda fun

Boot being short for boot-strap.  AKA IPL text.

At 05:42 PM 11/7/2023, Bob Bridges wrote:
>My old boss sent me a pack of 50 blank punch cards for Christmas a few 
>years ago, just as a sort of gag gift.  He says he uses them for 
>shopping lists and such.  I'd probably be more inclined to keep them as 
>bookmarks, except I already use old business cards for that.
>
>But I thought it was an interesting idea and went to eBay to see what I 
>could get them for.  My buss must have a source of his own, because the 
>last I looked people are trying to sell old punch cards for $100 for a 
>pack of 50, or even $10 for just one.  They're antiques, now!  Yeah, here we 
>go:
>$11 Canadian for one.  US$19.45 for 15.  $26.69 for 40.  Like that.
>
>Here's a test question for youngsters:  Why do they "boot" a computer?
>Where does that term come from?  I'm guessing most of them will assume 
>it's a sort of joke, that you have to kick a computer to get the ol' 
>clunker going, like "percussive maintenance" on a TV.  Oops, an 
>old-style CRT TV, I mean, of course, which I suppose is another thing 
>that doesn't exist any more.
>
>---
>Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>/* An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even 
>how much you know.  It's being able to differentiate between what you 
>know and what you don't.  -Anatole France */
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>Behalf Of Schmitt, Michael
>Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 16:57
>
>The card punch machines I used would punch each character as you typed 
>it, rather than buffer and punch card at the end of the line. So, you 
>had to type *perfectly*. A single mistake meant throw out the card. Or 
>save it for bookmarks and grocery lists.
>
>I like to ask the new people I work with "Why does ISPF maintain 
>sequence numbers in source?" (or JCL, sysin members, etc.). Not one 
>answers "so you can put your punched card deck back in order when you drop it".
>
>(They also don't know why old programs, and JCL, is all upper case.)
>
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Re: Kinda fun

The 129 was certainly better than the 029 in some respects, but it didn't allow 
you to hold one card while duplicating to add or delete a column. Of course, we 
weren't supposed to do that anyway.

People were using sequence numbers for editing before SPF. Dropped decks is but 
one of several reasons, and, IMHO, not the most important.


-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 4:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

The card punch machines I used would punch each character as you typed it, 
rather than buffer and punch card at the end of the line. So, you had to type 
*perfectly*. A single mistake meant throw out the card. Or save it for 
bookmarks and grocery lists.

I like to ask the new people I work with "Why does ISPF maintain sequence 
numbers in source?" (or JCL, sysin members, etc.). Not one answers "so you can 
put your punched card deck back in order when you drop it".

(They also don't know why old programs, and JCL, is all upper case.)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 3:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Kinda fun

https://secure-web.cisco.com/18LNT2SfbZVvO_kMheOLIfsnPLnIp-KytVWtnrD8et28ayX5Fo3eFMGVb8k3l-_c5Ymg35T9eepLMAM3D1-d6mCSCN5azs_oLfd1hTs7kRsZuswvDCbvA0D_kuJn5hXFWpnENsvhKLT5D7sR_xI7byE5Q4zAVFVFdr_zSo09tWzUasTfkpNJ7XcJTa96wPrxgH8fvfE1nmMGIb7RbWCDwO4ZMPrrAO4oSaLcmpKWuBvq90oP8UC1dqG4P23RjqElB3iDDTOB-xEEyMZ8lu3tBtc2fcNcoWLmUwEV3gb6-tsImSEXQppTpKyMsxhdL1o7dNGGwjeGJIidO-C3pgA4_O0H4uTMyW3EXXjtVYwuZ7fiVJBRRrpGpNncxyKDc0xZ-p4hSOTYyCm79Mq-i9F8FPtlQpQSKxNrfTjTaX4NUe_I/https%3A%2F%2Fblog.computationalcomplexity.org%2F2023%2F11%2Fin-bad-old-days-we-had-punchcards-how.html


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Re: Kinda fun

It is true that the online reader on the 7090 and 7094 could not read all 80 
columns, but how many shops used them as opposed to an offline 1401, a 7040 or 
a 7044?

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 9:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Kinda fun

On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 16:17:45 -0500, Phil Smith III wrote:

>https://secure-web.cisco.com/14cjuuVjCFjX_Gso5kZs-T0EVznTLUBx22H-HShEm6ta5Jddi_XWuZQSVb3McIrbOapqefqYvMGUZvMMFvqxDnB452PK4pq4VR1Mr-69cgcisfqcvi1PzquyUzPBtW-BRLmGrBRQCgObgSnHBvNim7H272TrsahbHwVaQatnTvxRMioKSmoDfXFP9fnKQ6zSMAqfX4oWLgzA_Xk4vG4dCC21XWh_iWP_7UGvp_hZT3WTHeENoP_UUrqN9qbPHeRyVFnyRV03sY-5pAnslfPdJqDIytCCcLG163fwXpcpvn_lOT27GZko3ENd3sMV5i0Gl5q-5fWfd_oR3SMTGUh5LYwSsbD8E4g6ky6qOQdOp9oBuXGfXa4W348gMf_R_mS4ULQjJcYB-dmjdUygK6yKE2ni3HP6I9tZFnSHksQAipiU/https%3A%2F%2Fblog.computationalcomplexity.org%2F2023%2F11%2Fin-bad-old-days-we-had-punchcards-how.html
>
More generally, What did people in that era think? I asked several
people who dealt with punch cards and there are some of their responses:

1) Paper Tape was Worse:

However, punch cards imposed the FB80 bondage which still enslaves
z/OS facilities.


On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 21:57:08 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
>
>I like to ask the new people I work with "Why does ISPF maintain sequence 
>numbers in source?" (or JCL, sysin members, etc.). Not one answers "so you can 
>put your punched card deck back in order when you drop it".
>
A major contributing cause was row binary readers on 36-bit machines.  I recall
seeing job decks with notes, "Data use 80 columns.  DO NOT read with online
reader!"

--
gil

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Re: Kinda fun