Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
>On 26/04/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> and also I have wondered if its not an icelandic thing but a horse thing >> in general or a certain type horse of any breed. Because even ten years ago >> I never heard of it. Five years ago I knew of one. Now today every ride I >> go on there's one to three. >> >> It's not common in other breeds - I'm confident of that. I've known way too >> many other breed colts who've been fully equipped by birth, or within a week >> or two of birth. > >How widely is it known though? I know I heard the term "proud cut" >many many years ago before I ever knew of Icelandics. I'm wondering >if proud cut is just another term for a crypt...?? > >Wanda Proud cut is the term for a studly gelding -- can just be a mental thing, or could be a sloppy job of gelding that leaves some testicular tissue behind (in the latter case a blood test would show higher than expected terstosterone levels). See: http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_health_care/gelding_and_aftercare.htm I've had a colt gelded as young as one month -- a mule produced by the same mare that produced one of my cryptorchids. (In fact, it is common for mules to be gelded very young: you don't need the natural strength of a mule jet fueled by testosterone!.) Seemed like it was an easier surgery and the little guy had less bleeding than colts gelded older. -- Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/JoyOfRiding/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
On 26/04/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> and also I have wondered if its not an icelandic thing but a horse thing > in general or a certain type horse of any breed. Because even ten years ago > I never heard of it. Five years ago I knew of one. Now today every ride I > go on there's one to three. > > It's not common in other breeds - I'm confident of that. I've known way too > many other breed colts who've been fully equipped by birth, or within a week > or two of birth. How widely is it known though? I know I heard the term "proud cut" many many years ago before I ever knew of Icelandics. I'm wondering if proud cut is just another term for a crypt...?? Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 01:31:49PM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: > On 4/26/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > he was a little "hot" two lessons ago > > you havent changed feed or hay have you?? I have problems when that happens. nope, still the same hay and a little "hay stretcher". i think it was just a touch of insufficient exercise, plus spring fever. --vicka
[IceHorses] Driving questions
I know I've read that horses are probably more innately suited for driving than for riding...so, my next question would be, how many of the same muscles are used for driving that are used for riding. My gut tells me the back is used pretty differently for driving, but maybe it still helps some? We normally ground drive our horses before we ride, but in the case of a horse who might be an alternate riding horse for Cary, would the horse get a lot of muscle benefit from an extended driving period, before we put her under saddle? Would it even be of benefit to drive her with a cart first? I normally think of ground driving being a building block to teach steering when the human isn't right beside the horse, and that's valuable... I just wonder how much strength building would also be of cumulative benefit. (Even if we do a lot of driving, Cary won't be the first to sit on her - I think he's too big for that. I'll get my small friend up first, then me, then Cary after she's used to me...) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
RE: [IceHorses] do your babies have testicles yet?/Karen
My mare Mósa has had 5 colts and 1 filly and one colt didn´t drop any testicle no of the colt´s are related to each other but I will not use that stallion again.She is still used in breeding but would she turn up with another one then I wouldn´t blame the stallion again. I know what you mean - with the problem showing up in many lines, I don't know who to "blame" either. Again, this is good information, Malin. I don't expect anyone to know all the answers on this subject right now, but if we talk about it, we may be able to figure out more. I'll be watching for any trends in my mares (or for babies from my stallion) and if everyone else does the same...maybe we can at least minimize the problem. Talking is good! Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babi..............
>>> -yes, that is the mare owners responsibility ,my friend in Sweden happens to own a well judged breeding mare, she got 4 foals here in Iceland (2 colts) everything ok but in Sweden she has delivired 3 colt and 2 of them got only 1 testicel down at age 3 and went for surgery. And of course she is not breeding the mare again. That's good to know - first, it's good to know that someone noticed that trend in a mare, and second, it's good she's not rebreeding the mare. That's what we need to hear about and talk about! Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
[IceHorses] Re: What Do You Do With Your Horse
You really hit the nail on the head w/ this one Vicka! Thanks. Robyn
RE: [IceHorses] do your babies have testicles yet?/Karen
> Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it's as > much as 50% in some form or another, but how > will we ever know if we don't talk about it? Karen here in Iceland there are not that high % for last 15 years I got 1 and I know of 3 other 1 with not one in the bag went for surgery could only reach 1 got him in for training and had him for almost 2 weeks returned him to the owner who put him down the hormones was just so much you could not train it ,yeh and coast me some repair on fence´s the other two got one down and they where keept intact to at least 4 but are geldings today by the way one of then was close related to mine on the father´s side and it´s a couple of thousands of horses just in my nearest area. and this is something that we mare owners talk about and discuss here in my area we talk about it when we have one,and of course blame the stallion for at the first time it happen´s My mare Mósa has had 5 colts and 1 filly and one colt didn´t drop any testicle no of the colt´s are related to each other but I will not use that stallion again.She is still used in breeding but would she turn up with another one then I wouldn´t blame the stallion again. The other 4 colt´s has been fully equiped at 10 monht I don´t check it untill then usually as we don´t bring the foals in untill christmas. Regards Malin
RE: [IceHorses] do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> Well, it seems to me that there are a lote of "late descenders" out there in this breed, and they are NOT considered monorchid or cryptorchid because they EVENTUALLY descend. However, I think that is wrong. >From the literature I've read from credible experts, a colt is a "cryptorchid" if his testicles haven't descended into the scrotum when he's born, or at the latest, by the time he's a few weeks old. If his testicles descend into the scrotum between the age of a few weeks and age three, he's considered a "temporary cryptorchid" - but still a cryptorchid nonetheless. If they haven't descended by the time he's three, he's a permanent cryptorchid. One thing we need to remember is that a good many colts of other breeds have both testicles when they are born - I'm not sure I've ever heard of that with an Icelandic. As long as the Icelandic community is isolated from other breeds, we can use whatever terms and rules we want I suppose - but I'm not interested in living in a "breed vacuum." That's why I say it outright: Landi is a cryptorchid...as are a bunch of other colts, from lots of different breeding - imported and domestics. Note: I don't know THAT many cryptorchids of other breeds, but the ones I know are wonderful riding horses - IF they are gelded fully and completely. ALL of them are nice that I know. There should be no stigma in owning a gelded cryptorchid - none at all. The problem is that the surgery, done early, is very expensive and has more risks...and if you wait, you risk accidental breedings, hormonal-driven fights, and it's just plain more complicated to manage, unless you only own geldings. Waiting to geld a cryptorchid Icelandic might be no big deal, IF 1) you only own geldings, and/or 2) if you have a huge farm to isolate them (hopefully with other boys to play with) from mares. Order of magnitude on costs for gelding surgery, which I'm sure may vary regionally: Normal gelding: $200-300. Inguinal cryptorchid: $800-1200. Abdominal cryptorchid: $1800-2500. A lot of vets won't geld inguinal cryptorchids, because most often, they can't tell what they are dealing with until they cut - they will refer you to a big clinic or vet school. Therefore, depending on where you live, in addition to the costs, you may also have extensive travel time, gas, and hotel costs to deal with, for either of the last two options, not to mention probable antibiotics since the surgeries are more risky. That adds up. Abdominal gelding surgery is considered major surgery. Honestly, I haven't heard of any Icelandic's needing an abdominal "search and retrieve", but maybe there have been some...? >>> If the testicles have not come down by 1 year of age, I think you should consider them NON BREEDING QUALITY and have them gelded. That's what my gut tells me, based on what I know right now. Possibly most of those colts are being gelded now, but something is causing a high number of cryptorchids in this breed. >>> Now, will I wait for the testicles to descend before gelding - you betcha! Easier on the horse and the pocketbook. I can't blame you, and you'll probably be fine, since I'm sure you'll be watchful. Many/most not-yet-descended colts are probably sterile anyway...key word: PROBABLY! That means you will soon have to assume that he MIGHT not be! So far, Landi is showing minimal stallion traits, so if his don't drop under sedation next month, I may elect to try leaving him with older, bigger geldings for another 6-12 months, to see what happens. If the vet can't find them after he's sedated, she won't cut. I'll decide then whether to take him to the vet school or give him more time. Who knows - maybe I'll get lucky and his will both be reachable when he's sedated... Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babi..............
> >But what about the mares...? -yes, that is the mare owners responsibility , my friend in Sweden happens to own a well judged breeding mare, she got 4 foals here in Iceland (2 colts) everything ok but in Sweden she has delivired 3 colt and 2 of them got only 1 testicel down at age 3 and went for surgery. And of course she is not breeding the mare again. Regards Malin I have had one that didn´t deliver down in the bag but was just there when you made the cut simple and not exspensive . But yes I wouldn´t whis for anyone to care for a "stallion" like that they are more than full hands,lot´s of reparing fence´s stalls they are just nut´s. I called my vet when the horse was at age 2 and wanted a surgery nope he said wait untill 3 ok then I will shoot him I saidthe vet settled us down for surgery after 2 week later and I was very happy that it was a simple surgery
RE: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
>>> I also make sure you can mount from both sides. Yes, that's good and it's always been a priority here too. One of the dumbest things I've ever heard anyone brag about the Icelandic breed is that they are so special, you can mount them from either side. Now, I love my Icelandics, and I DO think they are a special breed...but I really don't think ANY foals exit the womb thinking, "Oh dear, I hope no one ever mounts me from the wrong side". Even our "crazy Arab" was always quite blasé about which side we mounted from. All it takes is a little exposure. We work on that as we begin saddle training, so they don't know the difference. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
Brenna stands very nicely for mounting, from the ground, mounting block, on the trail. Kolur - it depends on his mood, I guess. We worked on it last year and made progress...clicker training, one-rein stop if he moved off, mounting from the right side (Cherie's idea), bending and relaxing him. He stands for mounting probably 50-75% of the time - it's a toss-up on the first attempt. I think what worked best from the mounting block was the one rein stop as soon as he went to move off. A few of these in a row and he would just give in and cooperate. Mounting from the right worked well for Cherie on the trail. Sue "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] The video every Icelandic Horse owner should have: http://IceHorses.net/video.html [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses [] IceHorses ToolBar http://iceryder.ourtoolbar.com/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
On 4/26/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > he was a little "hot" two lessons ago you havent changed feed or hay have you?? I have problems when that happens. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
> Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a loose rein, >waiting for > you to get on? > > Is there any fidgeting? > > Does he walk off or move before you're on, and you have to >re-align him > to the block? Mine are all clicker trained to stand still for mounting. Once I say "stand" they stay still. I do not have any rein tension but I do have them in my left hand along with mane. Like Susan, I make a point of adjusting the stirrups, saddle, wiggle around a bit. I also make sure you can mount from both sides. Cherie
RE: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
>>>My husband always asks if I have had my Doppa fix for the day so he can judge my mood - he knows life at our house is much more pleasant with Doppa in our lives - he feels it's a good investment towards marital tranquility Oh, yeah, that's the BIG one - marriage counseling! Cary was terrified when I broke my back that I might not be able to ride again - he couldn't face living with me if I didn't get my daily horse-fix. Now he's hooked too. :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
Re: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
"good vibes" and in general making them feel good emotionally. What else? What other things do we do with our horses? Why are they valuable in our lives? My husband always asks if I have had my Doppa fix for the day so he can judge my mood - he knows life at our house is much more pleasant with Doppa in our lives - he feels it's a good investment towards marital tranquility -- Laree
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> Everything I've read on other animals said the mode of transmission was unknown and uncertain whether or not it was only inheritance (rather than hormonal factors during development in utero in some cases). As I've been reading, I found something that said there is conclusive evidence of it being hereditary in dogs and cats; thus from that it's assumed to be hereditary in horses. It's just that studies haven't been done with sufficient numbers to say it's been proven in equines. That's not to say that there might not also be other causes though, I suppose...? BTW, I do most of my searching on established vet school sites, or on www.thehorse.com, which has advisors from the AAEP - most of the articles there can and do name their sources, and whether the thoughts expressed are "conventional wisdom" or from documented studies. I tend to take stuff on breed sites with a grain of salt. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a loose rein, waiting for you to get on? One other thing I should mention - how still the horse stands can be a mirror of the state of mind of the rider. I have one relative (not Cary this time) who invariably makes the horses fidgety when she mounts. She's a decent rider, but she simply doesn't ask them to stand, and I think she makes all horses and many humans (wait, did I really write that?) antsy. I noticed once that I have the most problem with my horses not standing perfectly still when we have people over to ride. Coincidence? I don't think so. When people come here to ride, I am usually rushing around, making sure they have a bridle that fits, the saddle pad is on straight, their helmet is adjusted right...and then I think I forget to chill when I'm ready to ride myself. Once I noticed this, I started occasionally doing this zen-like thing where I close my eyes, relax, smell the horse, while leaning over them, making myself as relaxed as possible. It's amazing how often they will stand quietly once I'm quiet again inside. Before I blame his unnamed owner/rider for Skjoni's not standing still for me to mount this weekend, I have to admit that I had company, and had been busy showing saddles, babies, pads just before, so I was probably still going full-steam-ahead as I'm prone to do. It might not have been Cary's - er uh, I mean "unnamed rider's" - fault this time. :) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 10:59:04AM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: > What else? What other things do we do with our horses? Why are they > valuable in our lives? unconditional love and infinite beauty. wholesome exercise. practice with empathy. the thrill of speed, and the calm joy of relaxation. friendship and partnership. an art that will take a lifetime to perfect, but in which every little achievement is a triumph. forgive, i'm getting sentimental. i should go eat lunch :) --vicka, who's going to spend this evening with her ponykins :)
RE: [IceHorses] do your babies have testicles yet?
--- Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Susan, I have no problem with your having included it to begin with, but I think the main thing that separates me from some others is that I'll talk openly about this. << I know, and that is why I asked you, especially since I knew you had colts that were about the same age as mine. It's also the reason I respect your opinion above others. >>"late descenders" and two perfectly normal.<< Well, it seems to me that there are a lote of "late descenders" out there in this breed, and they are NOT considered monorchid or cryptorchid because they EVENTUALLY descend. However, I think that is wrong. If the testicles have not come down by 1 year of age, I think you should consider them NON BREEDING QUALITY and have them gelded. Now, will I wait for the testicles to descend before gelding - you betcha! Easier on the horse and the pocketbook. THis is an area where we need more honesty, especially with the "late descenders". Susan in NV Happy High Desert Trails Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
> > breeding must have a vet certificate stating that the horse "has two >> normally descended testicles". The cryptorchids I've had go back at >> least two generations on both sire and dam side through stallions >> registered under that requirement. > >Lynn, is it known if it comes from the stallion or mare side? both / either >/ or? > >Judy Everything I've read on other animals said the mode of transmission was unknown and uncertain whether or not it was only inheritance (rather than hormonal factors during development in utero in some cases). I just looked at my little herd, and my foundation mare produced one cryptorchid (the one that needed abdominal surgery) out of three male produce; she also had three daughters that were bred. A daughter that was a full sib to the cryptorchid produced the cryptorchid that only needed manipulation to descend (which my repro vet argues isn't true cryptorchism). The same mare produced also produced two normal colts. The two foundation mare daughters that were by a different stallion produced three normal colts between them. Small sample, no clear trend. -- Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/JoyOfRiding/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 10:59:04AM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: > How about the owners whose horses are doing therapy stuff? Not only limited > to disabled children and adults, but horses that are giving owners "good > vibes" and in general making them feel good emotionally. that would be me. i have ptsd, which is a fairly intrusive anxiety disorder, except when i'm with stjarni. he was a little "hot" two lessons ago (it was awful weather, i hadn't ridden in three days, and his paddockmates wanted to stay in the run-in) and actually spooked (about three feet or so) two or three times during our warmup. i hate hate hate spooking, but in fact on stjarni i felt just fine; i could tell he was just blowing off a little energy before setting down to work. at no point did i lose either balance or calm. my instructor doesn't believe me about the ptsd :) a lot of the reason i chose him as my teaching partner was the hope that he would be able to impart a similar feeling of security to my students. in some cases it takes a few lessons (and in some cases it's just not a good match) but i think overall he's very talented at it. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
> i love photography, almost as much as I love horses, and I know people > might think its silly when i dress them in goofy stuff and take pics > but I also like to take them places and get some real artsy pics. This is good! Photographing our horses! And from Karen: horse-watching: observing their reactions to new things, and even just their daily interactions in the herd And Vicka's input on teaching riding. Oh, and vaulting! That's a good one to do... I think probably Denise's kids would qualify for vaulting and I may have some pictures of kids on Hlynur doing their version of vaulting. And Wanda's input of playing with your horses: Dave was out with his RC. How about the owners whose horses are doing therapy stuff? Not only limited to disabled children and adults, but horses that are giving owners "good vibes" and in general making them feel good emotionally. What else? What other things do we do with our horses? Why are they valuable in our lives? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> And the genetics doesn't seem to be simple. In the US and Canada the Peuvian horse registries require that any stallion registered for breeding must have a vet certificate stating that the horse "has two normally descended testicles". No, it certainly doesn't seem simple. >>>The cryptorchids I've had go back at least two generations on both sire and dam side through stallions registered under that requirement. Yet the occasional cryptorchid still shows up. That's one reason that some people think (key words here: "SOME PEOPLE" and "THINK" - it's not known...) it can be carried through the mare - the fuss is always made over the stallions because it's hard to ignore in them, but I have only read a little bit about records kept for mares. There are at least a few incidents of mares producing multiple cryptorchid colts, no matter whom they were bred to... One key word in what you said is "occasional." I'd consider "occasional" maybe to be something like 5-15% or less. What I hear tells me it's much more common than that in Icelandic's. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it's as much as 50% in some form or another, but how will we ever know if we don't talk about it? BTW, I took my name out of the subject line. Susan, I have no problem with your having included it to begin with, but I think the main thing that separates me from some others is that I'll talk openly about this. I've had three colts born here, one with "late descenders" and two perfectly normal. I'm pretty sure this is not just random bad luck on my part. If I had to guess, I'd guess the breed percentages AT LEAST at my own 33%, very likely even higher. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> I keep seeing the title of this thread and I keep wanting to ask "but karen, how about your son" ar ar ar. Ok, I only have a daughter (of the human type) so the answer to the subject line question is an emphatic NO! Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] calling DENISE
>>> has anyone head anything from Denise in W VA?/ Arora was due the 20th to have nasi's half brother... I hope no news is good news For what it's worth, I've only had one mare go on, or before her due date. That was Sina (Landi), last year, who delivered a couple of days early. The others have been sort of "late" - Saga went a full three weeks over the first time.If the assigned due date was the 20th, I wouldn't be worried just yet. I DO hope all is well though, and that she's only a little slow. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 07:23:08AM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: > Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a loose rein, waiting for > you to get on? stjarni: not very well, though we've worked on this. he will stand like a rock for me to mount from the ground, but if we're near a mounting block, it's clear that he's thinking "she obviously wants to get on, but there's this THING in the way, i need to make room..." and he sidles over. that said, he does stand very solidly a loose rein, and if i take my reins in riding position to mount he gives his head and waits for me. once i'm on he stands quietly while i fiddle with my gloves and such, waiting to be asked for the next thing. i think it's just unfamiliarty with the mounting block as a device. i didn't use one in my first twenty years of riding either, and i suspect he never encountered them before me and some of my tinier students. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a loose rein, waiting for you to get on? Yes all my horses stand as still as possible without moving a muscle, with a loose rein, from the ground or on a mounting block.> Is there any fidgeting? Nope , sometimes they will turn their head and well anytime your are ready to get on board.> >>>Does he walk off or move before you're on, and you have to re-align him to the block? They all wait until I am ready to ride and they just stand still until I tell them yep let go.> Do you have to have tension on the rein (to hold him from moving)? Nope the reins are fairly loose.> >>>Does he stand after you get on, waiting for the next request? Yep , they wait until the rider is ready to go. Anne
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
I just want to say tho please please PLEASE if anyone out there is really heavy, don't get mad at your horse for stepping as soon as you get on! My husband is very heavy and I know horses do that when he mounts as a balance adjustment and I tell him not to get onto them! Both stand very still when I get on them! Except fox, one time he took off while I was getting on him cause I didnt get my leg up high enough and kicked him hard in the rump! He was justa gaitin down the trail with me hanging on one side hollering FOX FOX until my friend had the prescence of mind to holler whoa and he stopped :) Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
I keep seeing the title of this thread and I keep wanting to ask "but karen, how about your son" ar ar ar. just kiddin Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
> breeding must have a vet certificate stating that the horse "has two > normally descended testicles". The cryptorchids I've had go back at > least two generations on both sire and dam side through stallions > registered under that requirement. Lynn, is it known if it comes from the stallion or mare side? both / either / or? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
> >>> The Horse cited the highest known incident of the disorder being in >Standardbreds, at about 10%. > >One other thought, Janice. There are a lot of racking horses in your area - >probably some cross-breds too? Standardbreds are a major part of the gene >pool in the racking "breed". That might explain why you may be seeing more, >as racking horses grow in popularity. > >Karen Thomas, NC Cryptorchism appears to be a complex disorder -- ranging from one or more testicles being no where near the scrotum (in one of my geldings the vets found the second, very little testicle nestled by his spine; in another they both dropped down with a little digital manipulation by the vet (I continued with the gelding process anyway)). And the genetics doesn't seem to be simple. In the US and Canada the Peuvian horse registries require that any stallion registered for breeding must have a vet certificate stating that the horse "has two normally descended testicles". The cryptorchids I've had go back at least two generations on both sire and dam side through stallions registered under that requirement. Yet the occasional cryptorchid still shows up. -- Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
RE: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
>>> Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a loose rein, waiting for you to get on? Is there any fidgeting? Does he walk off or move before you're on, and you have to re-align him to the block? Yes...MOST of the time. A few unnamed riders here (one big one in particular...) aren't so careful about paying attention to this, so walking off or fidgeting can be a rider-influenced habit/problem if you don't watch out. I was surprised to find that Skjoni didn't want to stand for me to mount when I rode him last weekend, but kept moving to the side - of course, I won't name the sometimes-oblivious person who usually rides him. I'll be digging into that issue, to see if he has a new problem, or it's just a habit he's gotten into. His normal rider has been mounting from the ground, so my mounting from the block might have caught him off-guard. That's no excuse though... >>> Do you have to have tension on the rein (to hold him from moving)? Even for a fidgety horse, which we GENERALLY don't have, I don't like tension in the rein for mounting. I think that "trapped" feeling tends to make things worse. >>> Does he stand after you get on, waiting for the next request? I think we're batting 1000 on that one - at the moment. It's certainly a priority of ours, but a careless rider can quickly ruin a nicely-trained horse. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
>>> Great minds think alike - I just bought that same bag in Slate Blue at Equine Affaire and I love it - I thought about the pink one seriously but I'm glad now I got the blue one - we'd be getting our bags mixed up when we're together AHHH! They only had the slate blue in the shoulder bag, not the tote. Otherwise, I would have been very tempted by the blue. Next time I'm on the verge of an impulse purchase, maybe I should call you on the cell phone. LOL Susan, I don't think we'll have that problem, given the geography between us - feel free to buy the pink one! Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
Oh my gosh! It's me!!! Susan, take my word - you NEED that purse! I don't think you have enough pink in your life. :) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
On 4/26/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> Oh, Janice, I'm disappointed. Good boots, inexpensive... who cares what > color? They might go with one of your boa's. > > Ok, only concerning Janice would I ask this question: by "boa" do you mean > a scaly animal or a feathered or furred accessory? :) i think she means my harness plume, but thats ok, I have a boa :) but its red, but red, to me, is neutral and goes with anything. Janice Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
> Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a > loose rein, waiting for > you to get on? Yes. > Is there any fidgeting? No. > Does he walk off or move before you're on, and you > have to re-align him to > the block? No, but...this is the time that my gelding lets me know that he is uncomfortable. On a few occasions I have placed the saddle in the wrong spot, it slid forward while I tightened the girth, there is a wrinkle in the pad, etc. If Deacon will not let me mount, the first thing I check is the saddle. I am more educated now and this rarely happens. > Do you have to have tension on the rein (to hold him > from moving)? No and I got lectured (about safety) for doing this at a clinic. I prefer to mount with a loose rein. If the horse spooks while I mount, I doubt having the reins will help much. > Does he stand after you get on, waiting for the next > request? > Absolutely! :o) This is all true for both Midnight and Deacon. -Kristen in Michigan __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
> Here's what my new pink Ariat purse/tote bag looks like: > http://tinyurl.com/3y3cg9 I don't recommend it with the orange/yellow Fat > Babies you gotta get the lime green ostrich bridle and breast collar at jeffers! when your purse gets old you can make it a saddle bag... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
I also find the prettiest feathers from my roosters on the ground and put them in my hat brims. One is very very long like a musketeer feather and I look like a pimpette in it! its awesome. Also I tie them to the mane so people will think my horse is native american indian. even jaspar who isnt even spotted. When I tied one to tivar it stuck straight up all the time cause his mane is so thick and poofy and it kept scaring horses who passed us. Tivar would look around like "what?! What!?!" big turkey feather waggling around over his head and other horses snorty and wild eyed. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
> The Horse cited the highest known incident of the disorder being in > Standardbreds, at about 10%. In other breeds, it's much, much lower. I > feel certain it's much higher than 10% in Icelandic's - but as long as it's > not talked about, who really knows how common it is? > > Karen Thomas, NC > interesting. Personally I feel it is getting very common in walkers. Cause so many are in my area and those are the ones I have noticed having it. And walkers have standardbred lines in the foundation. One guy I know has a foal born of mother and son because it was chyptorchid and he let it stay in with his dam and he bred her. yiii that horrifies me. Then it descended at age 4. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
On 4/26/07, Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a loose rein, waiting for > you to get on? > > Is there any fidgeting? > > Does he walk off or move before you're on, and you have to re-align him to > the block? > if my horses start to walk off they are not happy. None of them fidget. They wait. then if I dont get on, they wonder why and get antsy like "lets get on with it". If he walks off before I am on he needs work :) Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
[IceHorses] calling DENISE
has anyone head anything from Denise in W VA?/ Arora was due the 20th to have nasi's half brother... I hope no news is good news! Or maybe she is waiting til May 1rst to have it on nasi's birthday! Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
> I asked my friend "these are so cheap, what do you think" and > she said "you are about the only one I know who would actually > wear boots like that". I put them down :) Holy Cow Janice! YOU put them down??!! Even I (conservative me) would have bought them! What size were they? Go back and get them for me! :o) Cheryl ToltallyICE at Sand Creek Icelandic Horse Farm Icelandic Horses and Icelandic Sheepdogs email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.toltallyice.com Idaho
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> The Horse cited the highest known incident of the disorder being in Standardbreds, at about 10%. One other thought, Janice. There are a lot of racking horses in your area - probably some cross-breds too? Standardbreds are a major part of the gene pool in the racking "breed". That might explain why you may be seeing more, as racking horses grow in popularity. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a > loose rein, waiting for > you to get on? Yes, I insitst on it > Is there any fidgeting? Not usually. > Does he walk off or move before you're on, and you > have to re-align him to > the block? Not very often. > Do you have to have tension on the rein (to hold him > from moving)? No, I mount with a loose rein. Probably not very safe, but I don't want to accidentlly bang the horse in the mouth. > Does he stand after you get on, waiting for the next > request? Absolutely! But I always do this! I get on, adjust my leg position, maybe take a sip from my camel pack! Mounting and dismounting are where a lot of accidents happen, so I insist on the horse standing still for both, and ALWAYS wait a minute or so after mounting before moving off. Also, the first mile or so is ALWAYS done at a walk going away from home as well as back home. It is interesting to note that the only horses at my house that rush home are the ones who were not raised there. My home raised horses have NEVER rushed home, while the ones we bought already "broke" do. Must be the way the former owners rode them home. Even my green horses walk the last mile on a loose rein with their head down and wait patiently while my mom's horse does circles, stops and backs because he wants to rush. HMM Susan in NV Happy High Desert Trails Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
> > Here's what my new pink Ariat purse/tote bag looks > like: > > http://tinyurl.com/3y3cg9 << Oh my gosh! It's me!!! Susan in NV Happy High Desert Trails Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[IceHorses] Tiv and the farrier
The farrier came yesterday. I am worried about him. he is a colon cancer survivor and yesterday he was pale, clammy and could barely have the energy to file the hooves. I felt bad he had to shoe jaspar on the front cause he has a split. I said "want to come back another day and do the rest?" He said "if you dont mind, I am just exhausted..." then he asked who was left. I said, Fox, Nasi and Tivar, and he said "well I will do the big shetland and save the rest for next week." so I go get Tivar and he was an angel. Then while he was doing him my farrier stops and laughs and says "well looka there, he's my little helper buddy" and Tiv's lead was loose and untied completely and he was holding it in his mouth and standing perfectly still with his foot up, like "I'll hold myself for you so I dont move" hahaha. Of course I didnt have a camera... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
>>> Oh, Janice, I'm disappointed. Good boots, inexpensive... who cares what color? They might go with one of your boa's. Ok, only concerning Janice would I ask this question: by "boa" do you mean a scaly animal or a feathered or furred accessory? :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
its nice karen!! Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> and also I have wondered if its not an icelandic thing but a horse thing in general or a certain type horse of any breed. Because even ten years ago I never heard of it. Five years ago I knew of one. Now today every ride I go on there's one to three. It's not common in other breeds - I'm confident of that. I've known way too many other breed colts who've been fully equipped by birth, or within a week or two of birth. The Horse cited the highest known incident of the disorder being in Standardbreds, at about 10%. In other breeds, it's much, much lower. I feel certain it's much higher than 10% in Icelandic's - but as long as it's not talked about, who really knows how common it is? Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
and also I have wondered if its not an icelandic thing but a horse thing in general or a certain type horse of any breed. Because even ten years ago I never heard of it. Five years ago I knew of one. Now today every ride I go on there's one to three. But there are so many factors involved, like maybe I am riding with more horses etc. but also, call me crazy, but hey, old timer hunters around here know this is true--- when there is an overpopulation of grey squirrels the mom will sometimes nibble off all the males genitalia. Hunters find shiney scars there and no organs. And it is said and I have seen it that when a herd is too big and not getting what it needs, the herd thins itself thru disease, poor health, etc from bad conditions and overcrowding. Just what if horses in captivity are culling themselves thru some physical biological thing... just a thought. but my vet says he sees it a lot in "ponies and wild mustangs". what do those two have in common? I have racked my brain but cant think of anything... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
> Here's what my new pink Ariat purse/tote bag looks like: > http://tinyurl.com/3y3cg9 I was going to ask for a picture when I read the first message (like, how could you post about buying a purse without sending a picture?!?!?). :-) > I asked my friend "these are so cheap, what do you think" and she said > "you are about the only one I know who would actually wear boots like > that". > I put them down :) Oh, Janice, I'm disappointed. Good boots, inexpensive... who cares what color? They might go with one of your boa's. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] Standing At The Mounting Block
Does your horse stand at the mounting block, on a loose rein, waiting for you to get on? Is there any fidgeting? Does he walk off or move before you're on, and you have to re-align him to the block? Do you have to have tension on the rein (to hold him from moving)? Does he stand after you get on, waiting for the next request? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
> > Here's what my new pink Ariat purse/tote bag looks like: > http://tinyurl.com/3y3cg9 I don't recommend it with the orange/yellow Fat > Babies though, but then, I'm no color consultant like Janice. :) > Karen - Great minds think alike - I just bought that same bag in Slate Blue at Equine Affaire and I love it - I thought about the pink one seriously but I'm glad now I got the blue one - we'd be getting our bags mixed up when we're together -- Laree
RE: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
>>> i love photography, almost as much as I love horses, I didn't even think about that - it's probably obvious that I love catching a series of pictures that tell a story about my horses. I love photography - I've never thought about doing it as an "art", but more for the stories. And my other love is horse-watching: observing their reactions to new things, and even just their daily interactions in the herd - Cary and I love that almost as much as riding. The photography allows me to record the precious moments we have observing our horses. I go back and look through my zillions of pictures regularly, and I almost always find something that makes me smile. Thank goodness for digital cameras! Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
RE: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
I asked my friend "these are so cheap, what do you think" and she said "you are about the only one I know who would actually wear boots like that". I put them down :) Hmm, I have some old grass-green Ariat paddock boots that I love...and I just bid on a pair of lime green and blue Fat Babies on ebay. No, Janice, you are not alone. :) Here's what my new pink Ariat purse/tote bag looks like: http://tinyurl.com/3y3cg9 I don't recommend it with the orange/yellow Fat Babies though, but then, I'm no color consultant like Janice. :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> just a point of semantics... if its only one retained its monorchid. If its two its chryptorchid. There are several other variations too, but apparently the general term is cryptorchid - I've read the term "unilateral cryptorchid" as well as monorchid. And, if anyone wants to do any searches on it - The Horse (www.thehorse.com has some good info) - the spelling doesn't normally include the "h", although I've seen it spelled that way too. There are many variations of the condition - inguinal versus abdominal, even something called temporary versus permanent. I'd guess - and it's ONLY a guess - that the more common type in Icelandics might be temporary, inguinal cryptorchidism...but since young colts are so often disposed of in Iceland, I doubt anyone knows for sure. "Temporary" means that the colts are given until they are three years old before it's deemed "permanent"...but that can be a long time to wait if you're trying to manage mares, fillies, colts, geldings and stallions on the same property, especially if there are elderly horses in the mix as well. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
Re: [IceHorses] My kind of shopping
On 4/25/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My life just keeps getting easier. I found a really cool new purse > tonight...at Tractor Supply, when we went in to buy t-posts and dog toys. > Now if they'd only carry groceries, I'd never have to go anywhere else. The > purse is pink and made by Ariat...and was only $25. Life is good. > > Karen Thomas > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > i was at jeffers and they had some yellow and orange ostrich skin fatboys my size and I turned them in my hands longingly. They were 20 bucks. I asked my friend "these are so cheap, what do you think" and she said "you are about the only one I know who would actually wear boots like that". I put them down :) Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
On 4/25/07, Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Besides showing and trail riding, there are other activities and things that > people do with their Icelandic Horses. > > What might some of these activities be? > > Riding is not necessarily a requisite! i love photography, almost as much as I love horses, and I know people might think its silly when i dress them in goofy stuff and take pics but I also like to take them places and get some real artsy pics. Like I explored around the other day and found a lot on a deep spring fed lake that is for sale and i noted I could easily get a horse trailer in and out and I would like to take a horse or two there and get some water pics of them. and hopefully not be arrested :) I also like to try new things like going around barrels in a barrel racing pattern, going over caveletties and maybe soon low jumps, I LOVE trick training. I just love that more than anything. And my horses are about the only ones around that I trail ride with who know some tricks, even one, the simplest one, bowing. All my horses bow. I get all the trick training books and work on tricks. I am not great at it but i enjoy it and its fun. The ultimate would be a real spanish walk but to do that you have to teach a half halt first and that looks hard! Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
just a point of semantics... if its only one retained its monorchid. If its two its chryptorchid. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Karen - do your babies have testicles yet?
>>> No stallion are used in breeding if both testicels are not there and mostly they come´s down in the bag around 10-12 monht old and of course you don´t breed stallions to mare´s before two yo so you do have time to check it before. and also check if they are not so big diffirence in size and that they turn right in the bag is also a must check before you breed. But what about the mares...? Do people keeping rebreeding mares that produce cryptorchid colts? What I've read implies that the condition may be passed through the mares, although that's not certain. If you think about it, it makes sense, since the problem is obvious in the colts, but is rampant in the breed. It would take record-keeping, time and concern, to track the mare's offspring though. It's not a slap in the face, Malin. I'm a breeder myself, and I've stuck my neck out here, by talking about a colt born here. I have nothing to gain by talking about it - and possibly could lose from talking about it. I KNOW there are lots of other cryptorchids in the breed, a very high percentage - even though no one wants to use the word. It's simply something we need to talk about, so we can learn more. If we don't talk about it, we can't track it and see where it's coming from. Such a high rate of cryptorchidism is not common in horses in the USA, nor is it acceptable. By the way, my colt will of course be gelded. I have no plans to ever rebreed the mare. I don't KNOW if that's all I can do on this subject, but I'll tell the list if I have any cryptorchid colts born next year. I don't know what the answers are on this topic, but I will continue to conversation as I see more. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
RE: [IceHorses] What Do You Do With Your Horse
>>> Besides showing and trail riding, there are other activities and things that people do with their Icelandic Horses. What might some of these activities be? Riding is not necessarily a requisite! Some people take their dogs when they go for walks. We, Cary particularly, have gotten in the habit of taking our horses for walks. Whenever he's going out to check fence or trails, he's gotten in the habit of putting one of the young horses on a "leash" and taking them with him. He likes the company, and it gets the young ones in the habit of going places with a human, so (hopefully) they won't develop barn- or buddy-sourness when they are old enough to ride. They love the adventure - they wait at the gate when they see him coming. There's a big open field across the road from us, so he sometimes crosses the road, and leads them along the edge of the field. That way they can get used to traffic, without being dangerously close to the cars and trucks - and motorcycles. It seems to be good exercise for horses and humans - mentally and physically. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/776 - Release Date: 4/25/2007 12:19 PM
