Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
>>wish I knew what would make him spook like that. If he wouldnt spook at >>jumping a giant fake tree surrounded by potted daisies while a crowd of thousands cheered and waved flags and hot dogs... what would spook him? I guess you never know! Horses get used to whatever they are exposed to, and sometimes things out of context worry them. Our Big Mac lived in a stall from the time he was a yearling until we bought him at age five. When we bought him and took him home, he was terrified of everything outside. He was very used to sparrows and swallows INSIDE the barn, but if a sparrow flew over him outside, he went nuts. Luckily, Mac was by nature, a very calm and sensible horse, so just being exposed to the real world was all he needed. He was much better in an hour or so, but it took him several weeks to fully settle. I think it would have taken him less time to settle if we could have put him outside 24x7 from the beginning, but we had to limit his pasture time at first since he wasn't used to being on grass. I can't imagine what it might have been like had he been a hot, nervous horse by nature. After he got used to being on the grass, he lived the rest of his 24 years outside in the pasture. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
I spoke with a good friend of mine yesterday who is friends with the O'Conners. Seems that Teddy was being ridden by one of his regular riders when he suddenly and inexplicably went into a panic. The thought is that perhaps there was a bear in the woods or something simlar because his behavior was completely out of character. The rider could not get him under control and she did an emergency, controlled dismount while still holding his reins. She could not get contro of him from the ground either and he broke away... definietly in a panic. He crossed an asphalt road on the farm and it was here that he fell. They do not know what tore his leg.
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
it is possible for a horse to be quite > good in the familiar and controlled setting of an arena and quite dangerous > in the big out-of-doors. I have been around quite a few 3-day eventing horses which was Teddy's area. Usually they are very forward and incredibly bold - going over jumps that most horses wouldn't get near and gallop full out through field and dale. Usually their weakest part of the 3-day horse is their dressage because to be able to do the long distance of the cross country and to be athletic enough to do the stadium jumping, it's hard when they are that fit to relax them for dressage - that's why it is a very challenging discipline and most 3-day riders like dressage least of all - the cross country and stadium is much more exciting. These are horses are probably exposed to more stuff than at least 90% of horses. That being said, my off the track TB gelding that I took everywhere - through rivers that were more than belly deep, to all kinds of venues, on challenging trail rides, over jumps that were insane - spooked the one and only time with me at a huge log lying on the ground. Somehow I stayed on him (totally not expecting the spook) but if I hadn't I know he would have bolted blindly to who knows where - of all the crazy things he was exposed to, why that log bothered him, I will never know. But we have to remember that horses have different eyesight than we do, they can sense things we are oblivious of and they can sense monsters where we would never guess. I firmly believe that Teddy, even with his extensive training and experience, was just being a horse and that this could happen to any horse - it's just a sad tragedy. Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley "I ride ponies because heart is not measured in hands." - Steve Edwards
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
They go nuts in less pressure situations? Maybe arena sour? Or perhaps not accostomed to the real world? There was a very sad situation a few years back where a woman in Nevada was dying and the breeder of her nice dressage mare was trying to place the mare, a National Show Horse. We were looking for a dressage horse for our grandson Gabe and I was looking for an endurance prospect. She sounded like she would fill the bill, so I paid $1000 to have her shipped to Oregon. Now, in defense of the mare, this was a horrific number of changes for her in a very short time and four years later she is doing very nicely as a high school equestrian horse. She NEVER leaves the arena, but she has adapted to pasture turnout. When the shipper arrived at Creekside, he waved a lead rope in my face. Claudette had eaten through it her first ten minutes on the truck. She had always gone from her stall to a dressage court and back to her stall. She was terrified of grass, couldn't drink from a water trough, dropped a ton of weight. She was rideable in the arena, but when Gabe took her out on trail with a group of 4-H girls, she had a terrible wreck. He came off and she cart wheeled down into a ravine. He thought she was dead. After about three months, we decided she just was not safe for either of us. I never even got on her. After Ashley took her over, there were several other horrific wrecks. She came out the front of a horse trailer, or tried to. She bumped the gait to the arena when being led, bolted and fell over a bank and into a creek. The point of this whole story is that it is possible for a horse to be quite good in the familiar and controlled setting of an arena and quite dangerous in the big out-of-doors. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
> > Yes, I agree. Plus, we don't know who was riding or > the circumstances of the "spook". Horses who are in > competition know the difference between competition > and just a hack. but it seems "just a hack" would be less stressful? I noticed on their special, and it interested me, that while some of their horses were great at jumping, would crowhop and act out at dressage. Whereas in my mindset about things, a horse that will crowhop and act out at ANYTHING is not ready for anything more til it stops crowhopping at one level of training. I am trying hard not to judge, having never been there. I am actually trying to comprehend. My stonewall, he goes nuts in crowds, but this seems opposite. They go nuts in less pressure situations? Maybe arena sour? Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
--- Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It was a > neighbor, telling us that a > horse had been hit down the road from us, asking if > all of our horses were > accounted more. Horses get out and hit here quite a bit. Last year, an elderly woman was killed and her husband seriously injured when they hit a horse. The horse was killed. Terrible, terrible thing. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
>>> And who knows if it was really a "bolt" back to the barn or just a >>> joyful wild run to get back to buddies and where the food is. Everything I read said that he spooked and threw his rider, so I'd suspect that would rule out any joy in his run back to the barn, but I could be wrong. If anything, I think this may point out that horses that are good at one endeavor may not be the best at another. I think it's pretty safe to say that horses that perform best at certain sports - especially ones like high level eventing - need to be very forward and energetic. Maybe they even need a certain "edginess" to them to really give it a good run on the cross-country course, and to shine in the jumper and dressage rings. I'm neither condemning or condoning what happened to Teddy, either in the ring or on the trail, because I don't know the full story either way. But, I can say from personal experience that as our Thunder became a better and better trail horse, he lost a little bounce to his step in the show ring - he continued to win as long as Emily rode him, but the next little girl who rode him and showed him was a very laid-back child, whereas Emily was much more competitive...and on edge. By that time, Thunder was pretty blasé in the ring, having done it all - including trail riding - with Emily. By then, he rarely put on the same memorable performances with that girl as he did with Emily. That girl was almost as good a rider as Emily too. Believe me, it was MUCH more pleasant for me to watch the new-and-improved-Mr.-Dependable Thunder win a red or white ribbon knowing he was not going to provide any surprises, than it was to watch him accumulate the blue ribbons for Emily. I admit I don't know anything about Teddy, but I can only envision him as a young Thunder. Thunder really might have bolted on the trail in his earliest years with us. I'll take the Later-Day-Thunder over the Edgy-Thunder any old day. :) Any way you slice it though, Teddy's loss is a tragedy. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
--- Jacki Edens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I do > believe that even wonderful horses who have good > trainers can end up in > freak accidents it is truly the nature of the > beast. Yes, I agree. Plus, we don't know who was riding or the circumstances of the "spook". Horses who are in competition know the difference between competition and just a hack. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
- Original Message - From: "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> . I would > think Theodore was in a mindless panic and I wonder why. Thats what a > true bolt is, mindless panic. And who knows if it was really a "bolt" back to the barn or just a joyful wild run to get back to buddies and where the food is.
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
>> I saw Julie goodnight on tv recently. what everyone else calls >> "desensitization"-- She calls "bombardment". I thought that was >> interesting. and an apt way of putting it. If you think of it as >> bombardment then maybe you would be less likely to go past the point >> where the horse is no longer using the thinking part of its brain but >> the reacting part, a useless learning phase. That's an interesting distinction, too many people want to do too much, too fast. When there's too much, too soon, the horse may either shut-down, or try to flee. Neither is effective. >> was from a 2 year old green race horse bolting for the barn and being so >> mindless with terror he tried to go between two poles so close together >> there would be no way a horse could pass thru them, and he was at a >> gallop. That was mindless panic. I would think Theodore was in a >> mindless panic and I wonder why. Thats what a true bolt is, mindless >> panic. I just can't imagine how and why any Icelandic would do a TRUE bolt. They are such easy, gentle souls at heart. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
man, all those horrible accidents, they are so scarey to think of! And I know any horse can spook any time. But in the tv show, my gosh the chaos and crowds and noise that horse was exposed to... maybe he hit an electric wire? I wish I knew what would make him spook like that. If he wouldnt spook at jumping a giant fake tree surrounded by potted daisies while a crowd of thousands cheered and waved flags and hot dogs... what would spook him? I guess you never know! I would guess tho, that it was a perceived unbearable pressure that did not relent, a common thing for bolting horses. I saw Julie goodnight on tv recently. what everyone else calls "desensitization"-- She calls "bombardment". I thought that was interesting. and an apt way of putting it. If you think of it as bombardment then maybe you would be less likely to go past the point where the horse is no longer using the thinking part of its brain but the reacting part, a useless learning phase. if you saw the movie seabiscuit, or better yet read the book since it is way more descriptive in the book, the jockey, Red whatshisnanme, when he had the crippling injury that kept him out of racing for a while... was from a 2 year old green race horse bolting for the barn and being so mindless with terror he tried to go between two poles so close together there would be no way a horse could pass thru them, and he was at a gallop. That was mindless panic. I would think Theodore was in a mindless panic and I wonder why. Thats what a true bolt is, mindless panic. Janice even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
>>> It was so heartbreaking when our children's young friend's horse somehow >>> got out of a safely fenced pasture and was struck by a car that I >>> still remember his name: Snoop. I had the scare of the year last night when the phone rang about 10:30pm, since we rarely get calls that late. It was a neighbor, telling us that a horse had been hit down the road from us, asking if all of our horses were accounted more. I turned into jello as I grabbed a big flashlight and headed out. We'd just opened up a couple of pastures that we hadn't been using yesterday. Cary had changed out a couple of electric fence gates yesterday, and I was horrified that maybe we'd forgotten to turn the charger back on. As I ran past the charger, I could hear it clicking normally, but I didn't see any horses. Thankfully, they were just over the crest of the hill, and all of the light colored ones were lying down, sleeping - normally I can see the light ones at a distance. All of ours were fine. The horrible part is that the horse wasn't killed but left the scene, leaving the car pretty messed up. I still haven't heard whose horse it was, or if he has been found. Scary... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
But I do believe that even wonderful horses who have good trainers can end up in freak accidents it is truly the nature of the beast. It was so heartbreaking when our children's young friend's horse somehow got out of a safely fenced pasture and was struck by a car that I still remember his name: Snoop. Much more recently, a group of casual trail riding ladies in our valley were out together doing an easy trail ride on a flat dirt road - no traffic - when one of the women came off and her horse ran back down the road and went through the cattlr guard they'd just gone around. That horse was euthanized. Horrible accidents do happen to horses. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
- Original Message - From: "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > well, ok, at the risk of stirring things up... i just feel its odd > that a horse so valuable, so well trained... would spook and > throw a rider and then bolt like a maniac for the barn. I don't know Janice. in the past two years I have had three friends within 2 miles from my home lose good horses to freak accidents. One was an Icelandic this past fall who somehow got out at night and was struck by a car. Another was a wonderful hunter jumper who was out on a trail ride with its owner and two of my friends, the horse spooked, rider came off, and the loose horse went to cross a 2 lane road to get home and was struck by a car and had to be put down, and the third was about as freaky an accident as you can imagine. A friend of mine was given an Andalusian gelding. She had her two mares and a paint gelding in a field together. She isolated the Andalusian for 3 weeks within sight of the other horses. Then after three weeks she introduced him to her herd. She stayed right there to watch and things were going well. I was driving by the farm and saw him with the gang and stopped in. She was in her barn after feeding and was just putting her buckets away. She told me she was going to remove him from the field for the night because there seemed to be a bit of tension building. While we were in the barn - less than 5 minutes - we heard a car honking its horn and we ran outside. We will never know why, but the paint had decided to try to jump her 5 foot oak board fence, not cleared it. and become impaled on a fence post. By the time we brought down the fence and got him off, he had been eviscerated. It was truly one of the most horrifying things I have ever experienced and remember I am a pediatric trauma nurse. And that owner didn't rush anything, was truly being careful and tuned in to her horses, and things still went wrong. These last two horses were great animals, well trained and well cared for. The Icelandic was not as trained, but well loved and the owners thought that their fencing was secure. Personally I have followed Teddy O'Connor's career. Amazed at the heart and drive of that pony and pleased to see that the American horse world was being shown that 16-17 hand horses aren't the only great athletes in the horse world. I certainly understand your point though about the life and perceived value of show horses and I think it is well made. But I do believe that even wonderful horses who have good trainers can end up in freak accidents it is truly the nature of the beast. Jacki
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
well, ok, at the risk of stirring things up... i just feel its odd that a horse so valuable, so well trained you would think, hauled here there and everywhere every weekend to perform in front of thousands of people, horses and people and chaos everywhere... would spook and throw a rider and then bolt like a maniac for the barn. I know things happen. and yes you are right nancy, its not right when people criticise some events and not others, so I will just criticise them all :) I just feel like... horses are like children and we, as their keepers, need to outfit them best to make it in this world. WHy was that horse so spooky, riding at home. was he hyped up on hot feed? Too many supplements and not enough exercise to disperse energy?? Some have said oh how wonderful the oconnors are, how they must be greiving... but i dont see that. I watched their reality series with great interest, every episode. They are big time show people in that field and make a boatload of money training horses and taking them into competitons for people etc. its a BUSINESS. follow the money... There was one episode, sad as it was, poor so and so, a truly wonderful horse, lost like three events in a row, didnt even place. He was a great jumper but sucked at dressage. They sold him and the young girl who had been riding him for years was told she would have to pick out another horse. thats how it is with them. she cried and clung to his neck, oh well! If a horse doesnt win, they dont give a rats a__ about it. And Theodore WON, so oh its so horribly sa theodore the WINNER died. If he wasnt a winner you would be able to pick him up at auction for a hundred bucks, and I guarantee you that. I have fell off horses so many times it aint even funny. broken just dozens of bones. I dont believe one of them ever ran off. But I dont keep mine hyped up like maniacs, like you have to do to these eventers to keep them competitive. On the reality show I saw what they fed the horses, some were on a dozen supplements. They made a big deal of how they needed all that to be competitive. I just feel theres something off here, that a horse so accustomed to chaos would spook and kill hisself like that. Something really off. sorry. janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] hmmm
Theodore O'Connor, the 13-year-old eventing "super pony" was euthanized today as a result of an injury sustained in an accident at Karen and David O'Connor's barn in The Plains, Va., according to a statement released by the U.S. Equestrian Federation. This has been all the buzz on Ridecamp this week. Someone poste a video of Teddy on a cross coutry course. He was phenominal. Oddly, the Ridecamp folks, who tend to go overboard on criticism of any discipline where horses get hurt (other than endurance of course) have had no criticisms of this incident, describing it just as a tragic accident. The pony was owned by a syndicate and was no doubt heavily insured. Nancy
[IceHorses] hmmm
Theodore O'Connor, the 13-year-old eventing "super pony" was euthanized today as a result of an injury sustained in an accident at Karen and David O'Connor's barn in The Plains, Va., according to a statement released by the U.S. Equestrian Federation. Standing only 14.1 hands, the Shetland/Arabian/Thoroughbred cross gelding was the reigning team and individual Gold Medalist from the 2007 Pan American Games and had top six finishes at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day Event in 2007 and 2008. He was the 2007 USEF/Farnam Horse of the Year and recently had been named to the USEF Short List for Eventing for the 2008 Olympic Games. "'Teddy' got frightened and bolted," the O'Connors said in a statement later released by the USEF. "He slipped running back to the barn and suffered a severe laceration to his hind leg, severing the tendons and ligaments. Dr. A. Kent Allen was on the scene immediately and it was determined after examination that the injuries were catastrophic. Everyone who knew Teddy is devastated." Read more at "Vet Calls Theodore O'Connor Euthanasia 'The Right Thing to Do'." Ridden by three-time Olympic veteran Karen O'Connor, "Teddy" made friends and picked up fans everywhere he went. "Seeing was believing with Teddy, as it seemed impossible to imagine that a pony of his size could do his job with such tremendous ease," the USEF statement read. "Thoughts and prayers are with Karen and David, Teddy's groom Max Corcoran, all of his owners in the Theodore O'Connor Syndicate, and everyone associated with this remarkable pony." -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
[IceHorses] hmmm anna
Hey, something similar to what happened to anna recently is happening to me on Youtube. Apparently someone has brought attention to my Youtube video of a biglick horse's hocks posted recently and now the "views" are really exploding and I am getting negative comments. which for this video, is a good thing, since it brings attention to abuse in walking horses being shown. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
>>> Are we smart enough, knowledgeable enough, have enough faith in ourselves to trust ourselves to see the "wheat"? That's a really good question for a lot of situations. Karen Karen Thomas Wingate, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.37/1042 - Release Date: 10/1/2007 6:59 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
>>>With an attitude like that, even if he had something > important to say (and I'm not saying he does), if he alienates everyone, > who > would listen? This is a good lesson. Going back to the original post, The Absurdity of High Action", he says: >>the high stepping horse is nothing else but a result of human vanity that >>is misusing and abusing horses just for the sake of appearance.<< Can we separate who HE is, from what he is saying? and within what he is saying, are we able to separate the wheat from the chaff? He has some logic there and even if we do not like HIM, or the person he is, can we accept his logical statements? Are we smart enough, knowledgeable enough, have enough faith in ourselves to trust ourselves to see the "wheat"? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
He seems to hate women, all trainers other than himself, and I'm not sure he even likes horses! With an attitude like that, even if he had something important to say (and I'm not saying he does), if he alienates everyone, who would listen? Cherie
Re: [IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
Man - this guy is out there! Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
On 10/1/07, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >I have yet to see a modern woman that is willing to obey another human > > being without asking question or without demanding explanations or > > justifications. Even if she would somehow manage to scramble up enough > > self-discipline to keep her mouth shut, she would be thinking about what > > she has done the rest of the day and half the night, while most men would > > simply go for beer and think no more. If you follow links to the site about him, he tells about having a rough life and divorce. He sounds very bitter. V
Re: [IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:44:01 -0300, you wrote: >Further to the link/article Judy just shared: >http://horsemanpro.com/articles2/horsemanship.htm > I just read some more articles by this person (it's a man), talking about Rollkur: >I will be frank, unbiased and without any prejudice, and of course politically >incorrect, when I say that women did this and the men let them, because most >of the participant and judges, instructors and teachers are women. >What caused it? A woman's inability to deal with guilt when harming an > animal; rather than admitting and then correcting the abuse, they invent a > justification (excuse) for it, and then they will stubbornly argue till the > day they die, because admitting the guilt would break their hearts. > By nature they do more thinking than living, while most refuse to do > anything without explanations and justifications. This results in people > trying to ride horses according to some theory instead of according to the > nature of the particular horse. >Most modern women like freethinking and resent discipline; one will hardly > learn anything with such an attitude. >I have yet to see a modern woman that is willing to obey another human > being without asking question or without demanding explanations or > justifications. Even if she would somehow manage to scramble up enough > self-discipline to keep her mouth shut, she would be thinking about what she > has done the rest of the day and half the night, while most men would simply > go for beer and think no more. Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:44:01 -0300, you wrote: >Further to the link/article Judy just shared: >http://horsemanpro.com/articles2/horsemanship.htm > This person has one almighty big chip on his/her shoulder Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
[IceHorses] Hmmm, interesting
Further to the link/article Judy just shared: http://horsemanpro.com/articles2/horsemanship.htm V
