Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
There > are just ways to train a horse to do things and the strongest man in > the world couldnt stop them with a 12 inch shanked mule bit with > bicycle chain across the tongue if they havent been trained to build > on the least pressure possible... My focus with Doppa recently has been to get softer and softer in the bridle. I have never had hard hands but I am striving towards that "thinking it and she responds" level. It's amazing how the softer my "whisper" the more intently she "listens". I have known this is my mind but it's somehting else to see it working -- Laree
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 03:01:43PM -0600, Janice McDonald wrote: > I think the goal is to get them to do something with the least > pressure possible because they are so big and strong no human on earth > could control one if you dont... oh, absolutely. that's why we practice it :) i didn't train stjarni's one-rein stop -- gudmar showed me what he already knew how to do before i bought him. but i figure as with one's last math class, one forgets if one does not occasionally use or review :) i have NEVER pulled on stjarni with "all my strength". it would as they say waste my time and annoy the pig; he's sensitive and wants to do what i ask. then again he's never pulled on me with all *his* strength either. we have a slightly more civilized relationship than that. (although i have to say, from martial-arts experience, that i'm not so sure about size being everything. control of the head is a HUGE deal, as it is heavy (both in people and in horses) and vital for balance. i can easily throw somebody three times my weight by controlling their balance through their head, or otherwise taking their balance -- an off-balance person can't stand up, although a four-legged animal like a horse isn't quite so vulnerable to being thrown. but a horse can't run with its head all bent around too well, either, i would think.) your experience on stonewall sounds TERRIFYING and makes me glad that the folks at my barn only drink hot toddies when we get home from a cold night ridesafety stirrups? riding with calmer people perhaps? speaking of plain snaffles, i have (after two months of working with them) got my trail-buddy's horse from a long-shanked cricket curb bit (that he was using because "it came with the bridle") to my childhood pony's old rubber d-ring snaffle, even while out on the trails. and now no more wild head-tossing on downward transitions or while halted! hurray! your words about training a horse about responding to light pressure are just so true. --vicka, in snowy <20F new england, where we had a couple of lovely gentle canters over fire roads in the state forest yesterday
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > but it > wouldn't surprise me if a snowmobile required more serious measures, and > i'm uncertain if i'd be able to stop him w/o a bit in such cases. (i'm > not that certain i'd be able to stop him with a bit, even, but i could > try. we review the one-rein stop about once a month, starting at a walk > and proceeding to the other gaits, in the ring; we do it at about the > same frequency on the trail for practice.) > > --vicka > I think the goal is to get them to do something with the least pressure possible because they are so big and strong no human on earth could control one if you dont... thats hard to remember because they are so big but there is no way a human could overpower them with strength, we all know that. But thank goodness they have such tiny brains and such big hearts that they want to please so badly and also have some primitive wiring to learn from the release so that we can get them to do incredible things without them realizing they could just dump us every time and glibly go on their way. I trained mine all to do the one rein stop by watching a horse guru video several times. The way I taught it is to reward with a release with even the barest response from them and building on that. So that i dont have to do anything by pulling with all my strength. I have had to use a one rein stop once and I am convinced it saved my life. I was riding with people who were drinking out of flasks at 8 AM on a day when it was less than 20 degrees and while traveling through the woods we came up on a series of small hills, manmade for erosion control, and they just yee haww took off galloping and so did my Stonewall. On about the third hill he decided it would save him a lot of time and trouble if he just jumped from the top of it to the next and when he landed my foot went all the way thru the stirrup halfway to the knee, and by then he was on his way up the next hill at a gallop and I knew if I fell my foot would not come out of that stirrup and he would not be stopping as long as the others were galloping. So I put the one rein on him and he threw himself around so hard and fast he whammed himself into a tree so hard he actually made a horrible WHOOF sound. If my leg had hit the tree with him it would be broken! But the effect was that I think the tree hitting him gave him the idea that I had kicked him that hard in the ribs and he was a perfect angel the rest of the day no matter what the others did:) I had complete control over him tho. And he was in a plain snaffle that day. There are just ways to train a horse to do things and the strongest man in the world couldnt stop them with a 12 inch shanked mule bit with bicycle chain across the tongue if they havent been trained to build on the least pressure possible... janice yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 01:45:47PM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: > > >>> no, i mean riding bitless and one-rein stops are different. > > I guess I'm confused. Wasn't it you who brought up that you'd want a bit if > you had to do a one-rein stop? I just think you should be able to stop your > horse, with or without a bit. sure, and in a perfect world he'd clean his own stall too, as it were (actually he hasn't got a stall, just a run-in :) and his tolt would always be clearly four-beat and we'd never trip on the trail, and he could jump 3' and sidepass at the tolt. i am just not sure that in *this* world either he or i are to that stage yet. meanwhile, i think it would be unreasonable to confine him (as i am the most advanced of his riders) to life in his turnout and the ring only, and a shame to waste the 3600 acres of state forest which are why i moved him to this barn in the first place, but which are sometimes full of unpredictable things. so far we haven't had enough snow this year to run into, say, a snowmobile; he handles bicycles fine, but it wouldn't surprise me if a snowmobile required more serious measures, and i'm uncertain if i'd be able to stop him w/o a bit in such cases. (i'm not that certain i'd be able to stop him with a bit, even, but i could try. we review the one-rein stop about once a month, starting at a walk and proceeding to the other gaits, in the ring; we do it at about the same frequency on the trail for practice.) --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
>>> no, i mean riding bitless and one-rein stops are different. I guess I'm confused. Wasn't it you who brought up that you'd want a bit if you had to do a one-rein stop? I just think you should be able to stop your horse, with or without a bit. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 09:45:01AM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: > >>> sure, but that's a different practice. > > Do you mean that bending and one-rein-stops are different practices? no, i mean riding bitless and one-rein stops are different. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
>>> sure, but that's a different practice. Do you mean that bending and one-rein-stops are different practices? I don't think so, not really. They morph apart into different functions, but they start from the same point. We start the horses getting flexible from the start, even on the ground, and they learn to circle to a stop very early in their training. Of course, there are many other body cues that come into play as you add in bending while moving forward, but it all comes from the same flexibility of the horse. Because we work on these basics from the get-go, the horses listen and are responsive and light, so one-rein stops are rare here. >>> i do practice one-rein stops, but i also go out on trails with a bit. do the "natural-type" trainers to whom you refer keep their students in rings, or what? One example - the Parelli's probably wouldn't let their students out of the ring until they are well into Level 2, or maybe higher - I'm not exactly sure at what point. I'm not sure THAT much time is necessary, but I do think that most people - and horses - are better served to learn the fundamentals in a safe, contained environment. In truth, we really don't practice the one-rein stops since I think they are pretty harsh - I'd only use them in a true emergency - like heading into the path of the oncoming train. I've had to try a one-rein stop on a stiff horse that didn't know how to bend and it was miserable, and it can take some time to work. Much better that you can get the horse thinking about stopping before you need the one-rein stop. As Barney always said, "Nip it. Nip it in the bud." As I like to say, let's just not go there. If you want to be picky about semantics, I guess I don't like the idea of a horse being "taught the one-rein stop." Effectively, maybe that's what we've done, but we've really broken it into many tiny steps, many of which are also building blocks for other useful tasks/functions. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/699 - Release Date: 2/23/2007 1:26 PM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/4It09A/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/9ZdxlB/TM ~-> "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] The video every Icelandic Horse owner should have: http://IceHorses.net/video.html [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses [] IceHorses ToolBar http://iceryder.ourtoolbar.com/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 08:57:17PM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: > wrt sidepulls and no bit -- stjarni was taught an "emergency one-rein > stop", according to his trainer. i've never had to use it. but since his > head is as big as my whole torso and his neck probably weighs more than i > do, *if* he was spooking and i was trying to do an emergency stop, i suspect > i'd really want the extra leverage of the bit (even if his is only a > french-link snaffle). > > Many of the natural-type trainers won't let you use a bit until you've > mastered riding in a halter with a single rein...and that includes doing all > steering, turning and plenty of "bending to a stop" first, and riding at > three gaits (w/t/c). > > >>> the middle of a bad spook is not the time to wish you'd used different > tack... > > It's also not the time to practice bending a horse to stop, or a one-rein > stop. If these things aren't second nature to you, you probably won't think > to use them in a crisis. sure, but that's a different practice. i do practice one-rein stops, but i also go out on trails with a bit. do the "natural-type" trainers to whom you refer keep their students in rings, or what? --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
wrt sidepulls and no bit -- stjarni was taught an "emergency one-rein stop", according to his trainer. i've never had to use it. but since his head is as big as my whole torso and his neck probably weighs more than i do, *if* he was spooking and i was trying to do an emergency stop, i suspect i'd really want the extra leverage of the bit (even if his is only a french-link snaffle). Many of the natural-type trainers won't let you use a bit until you've mastered riding in a halter with a single rein...and that includes doing all steering, turning and plenty of "bending to a stop" first, and riding at three gaits (w/t/c). >>> the middle of a bad spook is not the time to wish you'd used different tack... It's also not the time to practice bending a horse to stop, or a one-rein stop. If these things aren't second nature to you, you probably won't think to use them in a crisis. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
wrt sidepulls and no bit -- stjarni was taught an "emergency one-rein stop", according to his trainer. i've never had to use it. but since his head is as big as my whole torso and his neck probably weighs more than i do, *if* he was spooking and i was trying to do an emergency stop, i suspect i'd really want the extra leverage of the bit (even if his is only a french-link snaffle). the middle of a bad spook is not the time to wish you'd used different tack... (nota bene, i have ridden stjarni through mild startles, such as having the neighbors' basketball suddenly bounce down right in front of him in the riding ring. he goes about six inches sideways. but i don't after only six months presume i've seen every behavior in his repertoire :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/23/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wouldn't switch on one of the school horses without the coach > agreeing, although I have ridden Gat with a sidepull with no problem. I meant that might be why he didn't agree on the school horses. Sorry, I'm out of sorts today. Don't know what's wrong with me! Steph -- "Brutality begins where skill ends." "Correctly understood, work at the lunge line is indispensable for rider and horse from the very beginning through the highest levels." Von Niendorff
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/23/07, Stephanie Caldwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I believe it might be unwise to switch from bitted to a sidepull, > that's not something I'd be comfortable with a student trying. I wouldn't switch on one of the school horses without the coach agreeing, although I have ridden Gat with a sidepull with no problem. V
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/22/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > During my lessons my coach is always saying how riders should rely > less on reins and more on legs and seat, that the reins are for > refinementafter hearing this told to me a few times through the > lesson, I brought up the subject of a sidepull and said since my > hands aren't that great and I should be focusing more on my legs/seat, > etc etc--then the coach went back to 'needing to learn to communicate' > with my hands and a bit. I believe it might be unwise to switch from bitted to a sidepull, that's not something I'd be comfortable with a student trying. What happens if the horse doesn't respond well and you get hurt? Then your coach/trainer/teacher can be responsible because of his 'bad judgement'. It's sad in the world we live in that we have to think about this, but we do! Steph -- "Brutality begins where skill ends." "Correctly understood, work at the lunge line is indispensable for rider and horse from the very beginning through the highest levels." Von Niendorff
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/23/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Virginia, > > Didn't you say you had Linda's new book? Look under tail work and you will > get a great explanation. Yes, I do have the book--I will look it up. Thanks for reminding me! V
RE: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
Hi Virginia, Didn't you say you had Linda's new book? Look under tail work and you will get a great explanation. I remember in the mid 80's being at a symposium organized by Trail Blazer magazine (an endurance magazine) and Linda was there and Deb Bennett a couple of vets, a farrier and Peggy Cummings. It was the first time Deb had seen Linda do tailwork and she was amazed because she said she hadn't thought there was any way to influence the posture of a horse's back when the horse was standing still. The tailwork influences the spine, the spinal fluid, the connection between the poll and the pelvis, horses with fear of things behind, preparing for temperature or rectal exams, influence the back muscles. If you can have someone do tailwork - there are lots of different ways you can work the tail and if you use the 'traction' on the tail (better than thinking pull because your really just want to support the tail and wait for the horse to lean against you) the slow release is the most important part - while you are sitting on the horse you will be amazed at what it does for the horse's back. I think you can have a connection to the horse with or without a bridle, not just with a sidepull. They are just different ways of having a connection. I think it is useful to learn to have a connection with the bit but first needs to come an independent seat and this is best achieved with the little or no rein contact or using a balance rein to help you rather than using the reins for balance. Just different points of view.. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com --
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
> I guess I'll just keep doing the best I can, even if I'm confused by his > logic. > V I'm considering taking in some lessons with a local dressage coach. Sounds fancy schmancy, but she basically just takes you from where you're at and helps you build both yourself and your horse. I am going to take in one of her private lessons with someone else first to see if what she's teaching strikes a chord with me. We'll see. I've had lessons from people that made sense and then from some that just lost me... It can get frustrating. Wanda in the middle of a 'heavy snowfall warning'sigh..
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/22/07, Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Having a bit allows riders to "control" their horse through metal and pain, > rather than learning to "talk" with the horse through body communication > (aids and cues). During my lessons my coach is always saying how riders should rely less on reins and more on legs and seat, that the reins are for refinementafter hearing this told to me a few times through the lesson, I brought up the subject of a sidepull and said since my hands aren't that great and I should be focusing more on my legs/seat, etc etc--then the coach went back to 'needing to learn to communicate' with my hands and a bit. I guess I'll just keep doing the best I can, even if I'm confused by his logic. V
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
> And--today in my riding lesson I questioned if I could use a side pull > on my lesson horse because I feel my hands aren't that great--my coach > then said that I'd never learn to have great hands unless the horse > has a bit, and the bit is for communication which you don't get with a > sidepull. > > So--of course I want to know about everyone elses experiences--can one > communicate equally without a bit? At THIS point in your horse life (and probably for almost all of us here), a sidepull is what we *should* start riding in (taking the opinion that only an experienced rider and experienced horse should have a bit between them). We can communicate enough of what we want thru a sidepull. After all, we're not doing pirouettes, Spanish pole dancing, Prix St George, or anything that needs specific high-level intrique communication. I think the thought that you need to have a bit to get great hands is backwards more real horsemen will tell you that you need to prove your hands before you ever get a bit! Having a bit allows riders to "control" their horse through metal and pain, rather than learning to "talk" with the horse through body communication (aids and cues). Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/22/07, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What is the tail pull for? > it is like a chiropractic adjustment, or part of a massage. they seem to really like it! It is in the linda tellington jones book... you hold the tail and lean back like a water skier and rock slowly back and forth, after a while they sorta rock with you so it must feel good :) Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/22/07, Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Finding Dagur has a lovely smooth gait, was just icing on the cake but > we won't be asking for it unless he offers it, and then it will be > used sparingly. > > Wanda > that is a great plan... with my stonewall, we plodded around in the roundpen a long time and I never saw gait, only trot. Then the very first time I rode him outside the roundpen (he wasnt ready, I know that now) I just let him go and he was nervous and tense (i know that now :) and then he just took off, the very first time on his back that he went faster than a dogwalk, he hit an amazing smooth saddlerack, and then after about 500 yards saw a blue water hose and went down in the front like a cat and bloop I fell off :) I never worried about gait again. I knew it was there. never tried in any way to tack it or bit it or ride it in anyway. Cause I knew it was there and just didnt even worry about it. Now he is the nicest gaiting horse I have, probably one of the very few only nicely gaited NATURAL gaited barefoot horses in this part of the world :) i am just full of regret tho, that i immediately started riding him with the fast horses and gave him the idea I only wanted him to fly... THAT was my mistake. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
What is the tail pull for? And--today in my riding lesson I questioned if I could use a side pull on my lesson horse because I feel my hands aren't that great--my coach then said that I'd never learn to have great hands unless the horse has a bit, and the bit is for communication which you don't get with a sidepull. So--of course I want to know about everyone elses experiences--can one communicate equally without a bit? V
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
every horse I have, the very first time I ever did the tail pull, they did that, seemed mesmerized, some of them sorta wary, like "I will give her a chance but I can always kick her if she hurts me..." haha. Fox still puts his ears back and clamps his tail EVERY time, then relaxes and sighs, but ears stay back, "watching" me, wondering "what is she doing and why?" its hilarious... then they always start rocking really good when I lean back and forth, they like that part best I think! janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 22/02/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> I started letting Cara take over with the steering. Dagur did amazingly > >>> well. He's so eager. > > That's great! That Cara is a big old girl, isn't she?!! She makes Dagur > look like a draft horse. > > Karen Thomas, NC Yes, he's turning into a very well built guy. Interesting observation Cara had last night. Probably because she's a little nervous being on a very green horse...she's been hanging onto the reins. She knows she has to give Dagur his head, so she's been lenient...but probably still tighter than she normally holds the reins. However, last night she relaxed and gave Dagur even more rein and he immediately dropped his head. The other day when we were training (and where he was doing all the gaiting)...when we stopped once he stretched his head down low and tipped his nose like he does when we're playing the 'down' game. I didn't realize it at the time, but he was trying to tell us that he needed more head room and took his opportunity to stretch. No bit involved in this at all just a halter and rope, and then last night finally a side pull. A person really has to be careful what frame you put these eager babies into don't you?. Last night the whole training session was done at a nice relaxed walk.. So now we walk and walk and walkand in about a year we progress. Finding Dagur has a lovely smooth gait, was just icing on the cake but we won't be asking for it unless he offers it, and then it will be used sparingly. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
On 2/21/07, Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tonight's training for Dagur consisted of Cara adding a sidepull to > the mix. He was waiting for her at the gateso apparently he was > ready for another lesson. > > I started letting Cara take over with the steering. Dagur did > amazingly well. He's so eager. > > Cara ended it with some belly lifts and a nice tail pull > > Dagur is concentrating during the tail pull... > > Wanda > that is too cool! He is concentrating! Enchanted by the sensation i think :) It would be cool to start a horse in the snow I think, cause if you fell off it would be fluffy... like the american indians supposedly mounted a horse for a first ride in water, so if they fell it wouldnt hurt :) Dagur is so like Tivar its unreal :) Dagur's face is so wonderfully eager i think cara is a doll! janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Side-pull and tail pull
>>> I started letting Cara take over with the steering. Dagur did amazingly >>> well. He's so eager. That's great! That Cara is a big old girl, isn't she?!! She makes Dagur look like a draft horse. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/696 - Release Date: 2/21/2007 3:19 PM
