Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
On 5/9/07, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Picture? I doubt I could get a picture as my friend rides at another barn. Depends. It depends on how the horse was trained; maybe whether he goes by control or communication. Does he respond to the rider's body more than the bit? Her mare was a school horse used in English riding lessons--all the kids and adult newbies rode her because she was/is very calm, but she was ridden so much her hooves were worn down too much (according to the farrier) so my friend wouldn't allow her to be used as a lesson horse anymore after she bought her. Then shortly after they moved to another barn. Since the move and the Western riding with new bit, etc, my friend says her horse is waking up and is much more lively and responsive. Maybe the bit is harsh and the horse is light to avoid the pressure, so that coupled with not having to be a lesson horse anymore is changing how the horse is responding. V
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
On 5/9/07, Jeannette Hoenig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: most western riders are using the full cheek snaffle, like the one Lyons has encouraged more use of. I don't think it was a full cheek snaffle because my friend would recognize that--she said it looked like a snaffle but had long metal pieces coming down. I'll ask her to ask her coach what it is. V
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
This horse's responses may also be getting better because she has only one person riding her and therefore only one set of aids to understand. I can't think of anything more boring/depressing for a horse than being a lesson horse for several riders. We bought the horse my grandson was taking lessons on and later, when Gabe outgrew hum, sold him to a teen beginner rider. She uses him in high school equestrian team and takes the wonderful care of him that many girls lavish on their horses. It's been a very nice move for Dakota. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
On 5/9/07, Virginia Tupper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm curious--is her horse lighter and more responsive because of the shanked bit? What does a shanked bit do? V probably so! and if she ever accidentally yanks on him he will rear! I put long shanks on my Jaspar one day and he wasnt used to it, he started too fast down a steep steep hill and I jerked on the reins too hard accidentally, and he threw himself sideways and fell down on his rear over the side of the hill and I fell off. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
On 5/9/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ask her what part is similar to an English snaffle - does it have a broken mouthpiece? Is she neck reining or direct reining? She said the bit was broken like a snaffle. And she is neck reining. The bit doesn't make the horse light - the rider, coupled with the horse's prior training makes him/her light. Even things like saddle fit and fear, confusion can contribute to the feeling of lightness vs. heaviness. Her horse was the most dead-broke, dull horse in the lesson barn that all the kids and newbies banged on to make move--kicking didn't help much so crops were used. The horse was so dulled out she was like in a comadead and heavy. She moved to the new barn maybe 2 weeks ago and has had 2 lessons in Western with the new bit and saddle. According to my friend her horse seems happier, lighter and more responsive. It's possible the horse had been Western trained years before it became a English lesson horse but I don't know. V
RE: [IceHorses] Western/English
Maybe the bit is harsh and the horse is light to avoid the pressure, so that coupled with not having to be a lesson horse anymore is changing how the horse is responding. It could be...or it could be that the mare is perking up because she has a relaxed rider that she trusts and now knows what to expect. I bought my old QH horse because he was a safe, been-there, done-that kind of gelding that I could put anyone on, but after a few weeks here, he started relaxing, and seemed to like me...and I in turn really started liking him. It wasn't long before he was fairly willing to move out when I rode him, and I'm pretty sure it was simply because we meshed and bonded, not because of any harsh tack. He always seemed kind of lazy to other people, but I never had to nag him to keep moving, not after we meshed. This is why owning horses is so complicated. The same symptoms can reflect so many different things. You need to see the symptoms in context to truly grasp what's going on, and even then, it's often very hard. :) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
Picture? I doubt I could get a picture as my friend rides at another barn. I'm not sure that we're all talking about the same bit. Can you point us to the bit on the internet somewhere? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
On 5/10/07, Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure that we're all talking about the same bit. Can you point us to the bit on the internet somewhere? I haven't seen the bit myself. I'll ask my friend. V
RE: [IceHorses] Western/English
I'm not sure that we're all talking about the same bit. Can you point us to the bit on the internet somewhere? I thought Virginia said she doesn't know exactly what bit she's using...? Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Western/English
Maybe the bit is harsh and the horse is light to avoid the pressure, so that coupled with not having to be a lesson horse anymore is changing how the horse is responding. And remember, no bit is ALWAYS harsh, if the rider has soft enough hands to compensate for any possible harshness. The bit some of us are thinking it MIGHT be, a so-called Tom Thumb Snaffle (which isn't a snaffle at all) CAN be a harsh bit...and probably often is. But I know some horses who are ridden in it who don't seem bothered by it. Some of it probably has to do with the individual conformation of the horse's mouth and how loose the reins are.(One note: you may be aware that some of us often complain about the use of the Icelandic bit in competition. That bit is very similar to a Tom Thumb snaffle, BUT I have NEVER seen an Icelandic competition rider riding with anything approaching a loose rein... A harsh bit in hard hands is a no-no!) Another thing not to rule out as a POSSIBLE factor in the horse's change. You said she changed bits AND saddles, right? The saddle change could just as easily be the major factor here. She could be moving with more energy because this saddle is more comfortable...or she could be jiggy and antsy because this saddle fits worse. Some people might mistakenly view jigging and antsiness as more energetic when really it only means the mare is uncomfortable. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Western/English
I'm not sure that we're all talking about the same bit. Can you point us to the bit on the internet somewhere? I thought Virginia said she doesn't know exactly what bit she's using...? That's sorta my point. If we don't know what bit it is, we don't know the mechanics of it, or how it affects the horse. We can't give an answer if we don't know what the question is about. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
That sounds like what they used to call a shank snaffle. If that is what it is, it's only to be used with the lightest of hands because the combination of those shanks and the jointed snaffle presents the possibility of a nut cracker action, really pinching the horse's mouth. It's been a VERY long time since I rode Western, but I had a couple of friends who were very successful in the Western show disciplines. One gal had the national champion Appaloosa trail horse. They both used a regular round snaffle for all training then slipped a curb bit in for shows, returning to the snaffle for schooling. This is how we handled my grandson's dressage horse when he wanted to show in Western pleasure at the county fair. He won his division, too. He also did really well in hunter over fences and on his dressage test, all on his very nice QH gelding. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
She also told me that the bit she uses is similar to an English snaffle except it has long metal pieces on the sides--I'm guessing that those are shanks? She said she hardly has to use the reins and her horse responds to the lightest touch--when she rode her horse English with contact her horse was very heavy in the hands and she found it very tiring. Picture? I'm curious--is her horse lighter and more responsive because of the shanked bit? Depends. It depends on how the horse was trained; maybe whether he goes by control or communication. Does he respond to the rider's body more than the bit? With contact, to me, in my opinion, will get you a horse that is heavier in the hand, than one who takes responsibility for his own body, and is able to use his body the way he needs to and not at the rider's whim. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Western/English
most western riders are using the full cheek snaffle, like the one Lyons has encouraged more use of. Not much shank, leverage bits being used in western riding. Only a few people I know use them, and for only specific purposes, and a few still use the wire hackamore for speed events when they can't get the horses head down. It is very fine wire and feels painful, but they only do it for there short event, seconds in time and take it off for other times when they use there horse. You will see more of the specialty bits in cutting and reining horses. Again, only in the use of special training and with experienced and knowledgeable people, I just put a curb bit into my Iclelandics mouth once and road him around my farm and he hated it and kept lifting his head very high anytime I turned him or pulled back on the reins, didn't use it again.Jeannette
RE: [IceHorses] Western/English
She also told me that the bit she uses is similar to an English snaffle except it has long metal pieces on the sides--I'm guessing that those are shanks? It could be, or as Jeannette suggested it could simply be a full cheek snaffle. Those are popular with a lot of the NH-type western riders these days. Ask her what part is similar to an English snaffle - does it have a broken mouthpiece? Is she neck reining or direct reining? (I know you may not know these answers, but these are things for you to be checking into.) I'm curious--is her horse lighter and more responsive because of the shanked bit? The bit doesn't make the horse light - the rider, coupled with the horse's prior training makes him/her light. Even things like saddle fit and fear, confusion can contribute to the feeling of lightness vs. heaviness. Regardless of the bit, western riders rarely use a lot of contact. (I'm sure some do - there seems to be no limit to the combinations of things people try...) There really isn't a formal distinction between English and western riding. Instead, it tends to be a cumulation of differences, none of which are defining alone. There's no reason a horse can't be light when ridden in an English saddle, with an English bit - or even if ridden bareback with a halter. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Western/English
She also told me that the bit she uses is similar to an English snaffle except it has long metal pieces on the sides--I'm guessing that those are shanks? She said she hardly has to use the reins and her horse responds to the lightest touch--when she rode her horse English with contact her horse was very heavy in the hands and she found it very tiring. I'm curious--is her horse lighter and more responsive because of the shanked bit? What does a shanked bit do? The short answer is yes. It sounds like a Tom Thumb snaffle, which is a pretty severe bit w/ a cute name. The shanks provide leverage not only on the roof of the mouth (with a bit that has a port--that's the part that sticks up in the center of the bar), but also puts pressure on the curb chain or strap underneath the chin, and sometimes on the poll. I'm not surprised that her horse is light and responsive on the bit--he doesn't want to get pinched in his mouth or have pressure under his chin. Tom Thumbs are not well-balanced bits, and apparently are notorious for pinching the mouth and cutting the tongue. Robyn
