RE: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
what are a thousand DQP inspectors at the bottom of the sea... Funny, Janice! I know they have a bad reputation, but let's not forget that the 2006 TWH World Championship got effectively shut down. Let's hope that was a change that we'll see some real positives from. The Big Lick horses in this area have effectively gone away (or at least gone to ground) in this area over the past 20 years. I used to see padded and stacked horses at some of the local open shows but I can't remember the last time when I saw one. I know there are at least a few TWH Big Lick barns left, but not so many people seem to be involved. I first got Mac and Holly, almost 19 years ago, and when I would tell people that I had TWH, I'd get some evil looks - I could tell that many people were suspicious of anyone who owned them, even though ours were just pleasure horses. So, even way back then, the evil practices were not accepted by mainstream horsemen in our area...and I'm in NC, next door to TN. Now, I don't particularly pick up that feeling, and almost all of the TWH I hear of are trail/pleasure horses. This may be true just in my area, but I don't think so. Any soring/abuse is too much of course, but I really think that it has gotten better in some areas. So, I guess that's what makes me so sad about Icelandic's - I can see changes in the other gaited breeds in my area over the past 20 years, most for the better...but I see the FEIF allowing stronger and stronger bits and harsh riding in an escalating pattern over the past five years or so. That is NOT the direction I want to see them go... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices/Trish
Science and perception do not always agree. ~Nick maybe because a lot of people hitting pavement or ice end up so gimped up they dont ride much anymore. a consideration in my area, well, used to be before we entered into the drought of bibilical disaster proportion we are presently in--- is deep sucky mud. I would actually say it is almost as bad as quicksand at times. But very very normal to be riding along a trail and enter into a muddy area, then without knowing, go down to a drying up pond or lakebed and next thing the horse is up to his armpits and thrashing and fighting to get out. soo. I was told by an old timer quickest way to permanently cripple a horse, a young one especially, is to ride him fast through deep sucky mud. so that can be a bad surface too. But I do see a flaw in your list of surfaces. for one, a gravel road will lame a horse quicker than anything because of sharp little pointy rocks. been there done that. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices/Trish
. for one, a gravel road will lame a horse quicker than anything because of sharp little pointy rocks. been there done that. That's a good point. The good thing (if there is any good thing) about that kind of lameness is that it is very easy to see cause and effect, since the effect shows up so quickly, and is rarely long term. The kind of lameness that one might expect from riding in mud, or on ice or any other hard or slippery surface, may take much longer to show up, and is more likely to be long-term. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices/Trish
--- Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was told by an old timer quickest way to permanently cripple a horse, a young one especially, is to ride him fast through deep sucky mud. so that can be a bad surface too. But I do see a flaw in your list of surfaces. for one, a gravel road will lame a horse quicker than anything because of sharp little pointy rocks. been there done that. Janice-- I will agree with the gravel road...I have seen many lame horses because of gravel, and not one yet because they were ridden on asphalt during a parade or other hard surfaces..we use the ground controll polys now when we ride paradeall the time now actually so concussion is not an issue, they actually have better protection than if they were barefoot. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices/Trish
Skye and Sally ~Fire Island wrote: ...we use the ground controll polys now when we ride paradeall the time now actually so concussion is not an issue, they actually have better protection than if they were barefoot. What are ground controll polys? Is this a shoe or a boot? Trish
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices/Trish
--- pippa258 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skye and Sally ~Fire Island wrote: ...we use the ground controll polys now when we ride paradeall the time now actually so concussion is not an issue, they actually have better protection than if they were barefoot. What are ground controll polys? Is this a shoe or a boot? Trish It is a shoe made form Poly material, it comes in clear or black, the clear is better as you can see through the shoe to nail, which is really nice. It has a support across the back and up through the middle of the frog so that the frog still has contact If you can not do barefoot, this a great shoe! They last as long as a steel shoe, and you can feel the difference as a rider, imagine how the horse feels. Its like going from wearing a steel toe boot to cushy air nikesthey are great shoes for parades...far better than putting in studs, as some people do.. We highly recomend the shoes to our clients, and now are using a case and a half a month between the horses we own and our clients. You do not get the really cool sound on asphalt tolting in a group though.oh wellmuch better for the horses. groundcontroll.com 1-877-traction Tell Kristy we told you about them, shes the owner and developer and very nice. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
I would infer that a shoe that size is altering a gait much more than the 110g boot maximum. Sorry, Nick, but that's an old argument, and it won't fly here. Finger pointing to other breeds does not make what is done in this breed OK. We already have educational processes going on in other breeds, so this list will continue to focus on educating people with Icelandic Horses. Any weight is not OK for breeding evaluations. If a gait is altered (by any mechanical means which includes sitting on the loins, heavy contact, greyhound DP saddle, tight noseband, whip, etc.) and a horse scores higher because of it, it's not a gait that will be passed on if the horse is used as a breeding animal. I recently went to a show and saw no weighing of any of the boots on the Icelandic Horses. So who knows how much weight was used on them since the boots are sold at up to 240 grams, or 320. I did however see some very sad riding, and the trainer who taught these people should be very ashamed of himself. The people don't know; they are novices, easily buying into whatever the trainer is selling / teaching. It was sad and it was noticed by other audience members. We need to clean up our own backyard and not worry about other breeds as an excuse to look away from what's happening within. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
Perhaps not, but the Plantation classes are allowed to use shoes that are 3/4 of an inch thick and 1 1/2 inches deep...for perspective, most keg shoes are 3/4 of an inch DEEP and 3/8 inch THICK. Yes. And if you want to talk about that on this list, may I ask what have YOU done to help that deplorable situation? I bought two TWH to get them out of that rat race, 19 years ago. They were not the best choices for us as novice owners, but by golly, we stuck with them and worked out their past issues, making them into fine trail horses. They are in my pastures, sleek, healthy, barefoot and sound, even in their old age. Janice has bought several from deplorable conditions and paid to rehab and train them - even took on a 30-year-old TWH stallion in his final days. I believe Raven owns a sound-humane gaited horse list, is a vocal activist in behalf of gaited horse abuse, and Judy owns the largest gaited horse list on yahoo. I've worked with my local farrier's association to educate horse owners and farriers to become aware that gaited horse feet need the same sound care as any horse's feet. I've given awards at the local horsemen's banquet to honor people who do good things with SOUNDLY trained and handled gaited horses. I've donated Lee's book to several causes, and I sponsor a Liz Graves clinic here - last year arranging for her to speak at a free local educational forum. There are abuses in way too many equine sports, and by way too many owners. It's sick and it makes me want to cry sometimes. Some of the gaited people who do that crap must have no conscience and must be the scum of the earth. Have I done a lot? No, but I've done a few things. Others on this list have done much more than I have. I don't even want to hear comparisons to those people. Being better than the lowest scum of the earth is hardly anything to be proud of. I want to aim for the highest level of humane care and treatment we can manage, not to be merely better than the very worst. We can do much better than that in this breed - if we don't settle for some minimum by making up excuses. I'm sorry if this seems abrupt, but I get darned tired of the abuses in our breed being passed off as ok this way, simply because a few people do worse. It is not ok, no matter what other people do. It makes me remember the days I used to hear, But MOM, ALL the kids are doing I didn't fall for that from a 12-year-old kid, and I'm not buying it now in this situation.. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
Again...the higher the number, the harder the surface...many of you will be surprised by quite a few of these...I know I was. Hi Nick, thanks for the information. It reminded me that I did happen to see the concussive practices of the Icelandic Horses being done behind the barn at a show this past weekend. I think the problem that we have with ice is, as you probably saw in the recent videos, that the horses are pounding. If they were walking, that puts less stress on their feet and joints. And the consideration of the ice nails. A horse needs to slide his back feet into place. The nails grab the foot, and the torque goes up the leg, negatively affecting his hocks (history of spavin in the breed, don't want to stress them any more than we have to), and his hips. The grab when walking is still a problem, but running that's a lot of torque. Also, as you probably saw in the recent video, the horse's hind quarters can catch a grab in the ice, and his front end can slip around. It just seems like a not-so-good thing to do when you don't *have* to do it. If they *have* to do it in Iceland for fun, entertainment, fine. But most of this country doesn't have ice or the desire to run on it, so it comes down to entertainment. Can't we find something more entertaining than stressing a horse's joints? It seems sort of a dichotomy to wear *protective* boots so they don't hurt themselves, yet expose them to something that can challenge their long-term soundness. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
just curious... did your iceys have to be registered NWHA to be shown, and what was the criteria for that? Did they have to be registered Racking before that?? Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices/Trish
On 26/06/07, Nick Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 8. Water 1000 not sure how to ride on it :-) 9. Solid Ice 919 Let me also add that water and solid ice have certain other unique chemical properties that effect the way their surfaces interact with pressure, but I'm not sure exactly how that would practically apply in the case of our interests. ~Nick What about Ice on top of concrete as is found in most hockey arenas...?? Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
I get darned tired of the abuses in our breed being passed off as ok this way, simply because a few people do worse. It is not ok, no matter what other people do. It makes me remember the days I used to hear, But MOM, ALL the kids are doing I didn't fall for that from a 12-year-old kid, and I'm not buying it now in this situation.. That is what really...really irks me. When a new to Icelandic Horse owner is told that they need to ride their horse correctly (in the traditional manner), they need an Ice saddle, they need to attend Ice clinics and send the pony to an Ice trainer, they need to get an Ice farrier and use Ice shoes. G! Honestly...if I can been new to horses...I too would have fallen for that crap. And IMHO..it's crap. Sure...I have a Ice Pony...but there is nothing traditional about him. He is an all American Ice Pony now. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
Plantation classes are allowed to use shoes that are 3/4 of an inch thick and 1 1/2 inches deep...for perspective, most keg shoes are 3/4 of an inch DEEP and 3/8 inch THICK. hi nick...how big are the icelandic shoes? the ones i have seen are fairly thick. also, what is being discussed on this list is what is done to iceponies. nick...before owning an ice pony...i had TWH for many...many years and for many ...many years. i fought hard to change the way TWH are heavy shod and the use of training gimmicks. to the point that death threats were made against me, my husband, my dogs and my horses by the good ole boys in MN/WI/IA. when i first looked into icelandics...i wanted a natural gaiting horse and wanted to be part of a breed that encourage natural gaits and training methods. after buying my first ice pony, i was shocked to learn that training gimmicks (placing saddle back on loins, leaning back in the saddle, etc) were allowed and heavy shoes were encouraged for gait enhancement and animation. in fact...i was blackballed in the local ice community for speaking out against the heavy shoes and training gimmicks. sure..maybe i'm a bit of a maverick when it comes to horses, but you can bet that i do it for the love of the horse. it's not hard to gait train a horse naturally. it just takes timeand patience, when i got huginn his gaits were not set...and they were rough. over the last few years...i have worked hard on getting him a saddle that fits, one that does not hurt his back with narrow gullets and long panels. last summer...our goal was improving his tolt. did i take short cuts..nope. we worked on it...every time i rode. long slow...work. but it had paid off. he now offers tolt when i ask him to move out. sure...it's not perfect, but it's fun and smooth. i would never think of forcing him into a gait that his body may not be built for. if i get any pleasure gaitsi am happy. so...yes...our breed may not use plantation shoes...but heavy shoes and heavy boots are still used and many icelandic horse owners in the USA are okay with that. and that...is what i am NOT okay with. i sure hope that one day the USIHC opens it's eyes and encourages the sound and natural way of going for icelandic horses. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
--- Raven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plantation classes are allowed to use shoes that are 3/4 of an inch thick and 1 1/2 inches deep...for perspective, most keg shoes are 3/4 of an inch DEEP and 3/8 inch THICK. hi nick...how big are the icelandic shoes? the ones i have seen are fairly thick. also, what is being discussed on this list is what is done to iceponies. I still have Foss's shoes when he came over from Iceland, I will dig them out of the barn and measure them. A lot of the Keg shoes we use over here (St. Croix and a lighter shoe made in Malaysia) are not 3/8 thick.I will measure our keg shoes that we stockthe poly shoes we use are thicker than the kegs, but much lighter and give a lot. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
was much closer to agreeing with you folks than calling you out nick...are your horses flat shod? no ice shoes and ice boots? no nosebands? are they naturally trained or are they sent to icelandic trainers? I was merely adding the positive point that we DON'T do many of the things that some of those other breeds do. true...but many other things are being done to our breed. NWHA. I was at a gaited horse show last weekend with an excellent DQP inspector well...i'm glad to hear that DQPs are getting honest. that has not always been the case. who sponsered this show? Minnesota Walking Horse Association or Heart of America? Tri-State? Were any heavy shod classes were offered..Lite Shod..Plantation..Big Lick? again...i have a long history with the MWHA. for many years I urge them to stop supporting big lick trainers (3 in MN/1 WI). i hope they have finally seen the light. Our lite shot little Iceys took first and second in both of the competitive classes nick...that's super! how about sharing some show photos with the list? I'm just saying - we don't plantation shoe, and that is a good thing yes...that is a good thing. nowlet's do something about the heavy icelandic boots and shoes. let's get rid of Ice Tolts in the Midwest! Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
joke: what are a thousand DQP inspectors at the bottom of the sea... answer: a good start. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
i wonder if you could put vaseline on a DQP inspectors pointy head how about just a bit of stewarding? man...i'm being mean. sorry. Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices
On 6/26/07, Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: joke: what are a thousand DQP inspectors at the bottom of the sea... answer: a good start. I dunno--I think it should be: What are a thousand BL breeders... Robyn S
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Road Founder / Concussive Soring Practices/Trish
IMHO...Ice Tolts are circus acts. If you want to impress other breed riders..hit the trails! Raven Lucy Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
