Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 06:05:05PM +, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> kindle supports epub format'ed books fine given that non-drm'ed epub
> documents can be converted to pdf.

Actually, the regular Kindle (not DX) is pathetic for PDFs.

epub formats convert almost losslessly (I believe) to .mobi formats
using foss software like Calibre. .mobi is supported by Kindle.

In fact, Calibre has this fantastic option of converting given websites
automatically to a chosen format like mobi at specified time intervals.
Allowing you to read successive versions of a website like a magazine on
Kindle.

http://calibre-ebook.com/user_manual/news.html

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Nagarjuna G]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:15 AM, Karanbir Singh  wrote:
> On 11/18/2010 07:41 PM, A. Mani wrote:
>>>
>>> perhaps offlist if you prefer, but I would like to know why you think a
>>> storage format might have such a drastic impact on content delivery.
>>
>> epub is a Xhtml + XML based format meant specifically for ebooks.
>
> you are still talking about the storage format, and not the delivery
> mechanism. Blind people, afaik, dont give a rat's ass as to what or how the
> content is stored. Its the delivery in such situations that makes it
> relevant.
>

storage format is one of the most important aspects of supporting
accessibility, whether for the blind or otherwise.  Technically it is
very important for the markup to support annotations which will help
reading to all people with all disabilities.  So, I do not see how you
say this so strongly!

--
GN

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[A. Mani]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:15 AM, Karanbir Singh  wrote:
> On 11/18/2010 07:41 PM, A. Mani wrote:
>>>
>> epub is a Xhtml + XML based format meant specifically for ebooks.
>
> you are still talking about the storage format, and not the delivery
> mechanism. Blind people, afaik, dont give a rat's ass as to what or how the
> content is stored. Its the delivery in such situations that makes it
> relevant.
>
> the point you made is that epub would convert better into braile or even
> text-to-speach, as compared to any other format. I'm just asking you how you
> got to that result.
>

It is very structured (see specs) and uses less markup.

It manages TOC in a efficient way through NCX. ... In readers this is
important for speed.

Text to speech would be more dependent on the ability of the external
s/w used. The safest thing to convert is plain text.
At least that is what most of manuals/books say.


>> Editing : pdf, djvu are not meant for this.
>> Size: epub is better than others
>> lines can be wrapped in epub but not in pdfs/djvu ... this is
>> important for reading the same document on other readers/pc
>
> Atleast the publishing, media and newsprint industry would disagree with you
> on being able to edit or change column width in pdf files :) You can render
> pdf into raster files - but one would consider that for the target audience
> surely ?


That would mean more baggage. I would like to see a white paper/study on that.
Even Acrobat reader is not a very good tool for reading on screen ...
speed of auto-scroll cannot be controlled,
does not support wrap in any way.


Best


A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS
http://www.logicamani.co.cc

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Karanbir Singh]

On 11/18/2010 07:41 PM, A. Mani wrote:

perhaps offlist if you prefer, but I would like to know why you think a
storage format might have such a drastic impact on content delivery.


epub is a Xhtml + XML based format meant specifically for ebooks.


you are still talking about the storage format, and not the delivery 
mechanism. Blind people, afaik, dont give a rat's ass as to what or how 
the content is stored. Its the delivery in such situations that makes it 
relevant.


the point you made is that epub would convert better into braile or even 
text-to-speach, as compared to any other format. I'm just asking you how 
you got to that result.



Editing : pdf, djvu are not meant for this.
Size: epub is better than others
lines can be wrapped in epub but not in pdfs/djvu ... this is
important for reading the same document on other readers/pc


Atleast the publishing, media and newsprint industry would disagree with 
you on being able to edit or change column width in pdf files :) You can 
render pdf into raster files - but one would consider that for the 
target audience surely ?


- KB

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[A. Mani]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Karanbir Singh  wrote:
> On 11/18/2010 07:10 AM, A. Mani wrote:
>>
>> The best ebook format is epub (for blind people .txt may be easier to
>> use).
>> Kindle does not support epub.
>
> perhaps offlist if you prefer, but I would like to know why you think a
> storage format might have such a drastic impact on content delivery.
>
> kindle supports epub format'ed books fine given that non-drm'ed epub
> documents can be converted to pdf.


epub is a Xhtml + XML based format meant specifically for ebooks.


The main criteria is :
Screen Reading + Printing:
Accessibility: text is better than other formats
Searchability: image only pdf/djvu cannot be searched
Screen Reading Only optimization
Editing : pdf, djvu are not meant for this.
Size: epub is better than others
lines can be wrapped in epub but not in pdfs/djvu ... this is
important for reading the same document on other readers/pc
open format:


Best



A. Mani


-- 
A. Mani
ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS
http://www.logicamani.co.cc

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Karanbir Singh]

On 11/18/2010 07:10 AM, A. Mani wrote:

The best ebook format is epub (for blind people .txt may be easier to use).
Kindle does not support epub.


perhaps offlist if you prefer, but I would like to know why you think a 
storage format might have such a drastic impact on content delivery.


kindle supports epub format'ed books fine given that non-drm'ed epub 
documents can be converted to pdf.


- KB

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[A. Mani]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:38 AM, sankarshan
 wrote:
> 2010/11/18 Nagarjuna G :
>> can I read html, text, PDF files of my own?
>
> The Kindle or, any other ebook reader for that matter supports a set
> of file formats. Is your question specific to whether you can transfer
> self-published content to the device and read ? If that is the
> question then yes, if you are converting it to the format supported by
> the device.


The best ebook format is epub (for blind people .txt may be easier to use).
Kindle does not support epub.

Reading on 19 inch + screens is also a good idea for almost all formats.

Digital libraries should have content in multiple open formats.


Best

A. Mani



-- 
A. Mani
ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS
http://www.logicamani.co.cc

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[sankarshan]

2010/11/18 Nagarjuna G :
> can I read html, text, PDF files of my own?

The Kindle or, any other ebook reader for that matter supports a set
of file formats. Is your question specific to whether you can transfer
self-published content to the device and read ? If that is the
question then yes, if you are converting it to the format supported by
the device.


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay


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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Nagarjuna G]

can I read html, text, PDF files of my own?

--
GN

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 07:45:13PM +0530, Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) wrote:
> Well, the Kindle and its brethren are out anyway for me due to DRM.  

You mean the *Amazon Kindle Store* content is out because of DRM. If you think
of Kindle as just a personal electronic device, just like your mobile or
mp3 player, it works too. You don't have to buy Amazon Kindle content
with DRM to use it. I buy DRM free content from Pragmatic and Oreilly
all the time and copy it to Kindle using the FOSS software Calibre.

You can read all of the free books on Gutenberg on Kindle by using the
mobi format, and Calibre can even convert epubs to mobi formats for you
to read on the Kindle.

As Karanbir said, once you start reading on the Kindle, you would find
it difficult to go back. Of course, not all physical book reading
experiences transfer to Kindle - it is not so good at random access. But
overall, you wouldn't have issue with the transition.

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Karanbir Singh]

Hi,

On 11/17/2010 01:20 PM, Nandeep Mali wrote:

I don't know but eReaders are just not for everyone yet. I don't like


I dont think the ebook readers are really a 1:1 match with the reason 
for decline in library size's and content. Its more of a case of what 
content, and how its consumed. Conventional non-reference or tech books 
fulfilled a different requirement niche in the past. Ref and Tech books 
now carry content that is easily replaced elsewhere. Periodicals have 
their own contention with usage patterns and requirements.


- KB

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Raj Mathur (राज माथुर)]

On Wednesday 17 Nov 2010, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> On 11/17/2010 12:20 PM, Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) wrote:
> > I'm old-fashioned (or maybe just old) but I still find it much
> > easier to read on paper than on a display.  It'll be a sad day
> > when all you can get is digitised books, unless digital paper
> > technology has advanced at least a few order of magnitude by then.
> 
> Have you seen the latest generation readers ? eg. the B&N Nook or
> Amazon's Kindle3 ?
> 
> I've been using the new amazon kindle3 for about 2 months now - and
> its quite nice - zero eye strain ( just about as comfortable to read
> over long durations as regular paper ). As long as they can make it
> possible to resell books and lend books to other people, I dont see
> myself going back to buying a paper book anymore ( as long as the
> epaper version exists ).

Well, the Kindle and its brethren are out anyway for me due to DRM.  
Apart from that, I'll switch when the e-paper becomes as thick and as 
flexible as, say, a 8-page newspaper supplement.  This is going 
seriously OT, so I don't want to start listing out all the things you 
can do w/ books that you can't with e-paper (or vice versa, for that 
matter).

Regards,

-- Raju
-- 
Raj Mathurr...@kandalaya.org  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/   ||   It is the mind that moves

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Nandeep Mali]

[snip all kindle love]

I don't know but eReaders are just not for everyone yet. I don't like
holding that device in my hand as much as I like holding a book. The
buttons are all clumsy to press in my opinion compared to flipping
through book pages. The page transitions are annoying too. I am not
sure of how the DRM is working on these devices and kindle doesn't
have a memory card slot afaik.

To each his own though. I am pretty sure this technology will make us
love it more in the future. With advances like the Qualcomm Mirasol
display [1], things will eventually digitize completely.

---
n9986

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1xEuR2mLh8&feature=player_embedded

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Karanbir Singh]

On 11/17/2010 12:20 PM, Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) wrote:

I'm old-fashioned (or maybe just old) but I still find it much easier to
read on paper than on a display.  It'll be a sad day when all you can
get is digitised books, unless digital paper technology has advanced at
least a few order of magnitude by then.


Have you seen the latest generation readers ? eg. the B&N Nook or 
Amazon's Kindle3 ?


I've been using the new amazon kindle3 for about 2 months now - and its 
quite nice - zero eye strain ( just about as comfortable to read over 
long durations as regular paper ). As long as they can make it possible 
to resell books and lend books to other people, I dont see myself going 
back to buying a paper book anymore ( as long as the epaper version 
exists ).


- KB

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Gaurav Mishra]

> I'm old-fashioned (or maybe just old) but I still find it much easier to
> read on paper than on a display.  It'll be a sad day when all you can
> get is digitised books, unless digital paper technology has advanced at
> least a few order of magnitude by then.
>
> 

Try kindle.

Regards,
Gaurav Mishra

# Blog: http://www.gmishra.com
# Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/gmishra
# LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/gauravmishra7
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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Raj Mathur (राज माथुर)]

On Wednesday 17 Nov 2010, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> I am intrigued why there is an interest in physical books these days.
> Pretty much everywhere I look ( from the Pasteur Institute in Paris
> to the UCL and Kings College here in London ) the libraries are all
> scaling back, dropping periodicals in physical media and moving to
> digital formats. Even most course-ware is preferred in digital
> formats these days. The Pasteur institute has even gone to the
> extent of reducing to almost half their library floor space!
> 
> I don't mean to be negative, but just wondering what the state of
> play in Delhi is at the moment.

I'm old-fashioned (or maybe just old) but I still find it much easier to 
read on paper than on a display.  It'll be a sad day when all you can 
get is digitised books, unless digital paper technology has advanced at 
least a few order of magnitude by then.

Regards,

-- Raj
-- 
Raj Mathurr...@kandalaya.org  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/   ||   It is the mind that moves

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[Karanbir Singh]

On 11/17/2010 08:02 AM, satyaakam goswami wrote:

I want to start a Library for FOSS books, But the basic math says this is a
difficult task..

one such initiative is already on
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=131953620168994 do try to collaborate



I am intrigued why there is an interest in physical books these days. 
Pretty much everywhere I look ( from the Pasteur Institute in Paris to 
the UCL and Kings College here in London ) the libraries are all scaling 
back, dropping periodicals in physical media and moving to digital 
formats. Even most course-ware is preferred in digital formats these 
days. The Pasteur institute has even gone to the extent of reducing to 
almost half their library floor space!


I don't mean to be negative, but just wondering what the state of play 
in Delhi is at the moment.


- KB

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Re: [ilugd] [...@iitd:10396] Want to start a Library for FOSS books

[satyaakam goswami]

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Narendra Sisodiya <
naren...@narendrasisodiya.com> wrote:

> I want to start a Library for FOSS books, But the basic math says this is a
> difficult task..
> A decent 3 room sized place will cost around 15,000 - 20,000 per month. a
> care taker with 5000 per month . total operational cost is 25,000 * 12 = 3
> Lakh per annum.
> If we assume 3000 per annum as fee  then I atleast need 300 student , (100
> student per room :P )
> So I want your feed back that what is the most suitable place in delhi
> where we can have maximum participation and How many student really turnup
> for this type of activity. Also, if I assume 30 student at 2000 per annum
> then this will yield 60,000/12 = 5000 per month.
>
>
one such initiative is already on
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=131953620168994 do try to collaborate
.


-Satya
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