Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
From: Shawn sgro...@open2space.com Karl said it best - we can't please everyone. Unless someone were to sit down and write a tool to integrate/synch a forum (Zoho in particular And he is right. Unfortunately the ones that will be unpleased and will have even more accessibility issues as before are exactly some people with disabilities that already have many enough issues using a computer. Octavian
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
But each time you want to post a new message, you will need to go to the forum, login, and then try to sent the message, which I don't even know how accessible it is, because friendly it is not for sure. While for sending an email I just need to press Control+N in OE and I can start typing the message. So the forum is definitely much less accessible and friendly. Octavian - Original Message - From: John Arrowwood jarro...@gmail.com To: jquery-en@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums Silly thought: What if the forums were 'published' to the mailing list, and the mailing list were made read-only? That is, every time a post is published on the forum, it is automatically sent to the mailing list. Then, in the footer of the message is a link to reply to the post, which when clicked takes you to the forum in such a way that the user can immediately reply to that post. The mailing list could be set up so that nobody except the forum 'bot' could post to it, which would make spam go away. People that have accessibility issues or just prefer to get their information via their email client could continue to read things that way. And you would have all of the benefits of the forum. Best of both worlds. Make everybody happy. I know it would make me happier. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.comwrote: From: MorningZ morni...@gmail.com Besides, as Richard pointed out, the mailing list right here will still exist, it just won't be moderated/managed by the people it was before.. That would be good, because at least for a period there would still be an accessible source of information for JQuery. Octavian -- John Arrowwood John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com -- http://www.irie-inc.com/ http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/
Re: [jQuery] New Forums
From: Karl Swedberg k...@englishrules.com On Jan 21, 2010, at 8:11 PM, brian wrote: FWIW, I'm pretty sure the decision to drop Google Groups is due to John Ressig's account being spoofed by spammers. No, that's not it. Okay, maybe it was one of the last straws, but we've been talking about moving to a forum for a couple years now. If you want to know what factors were involved in the decision, please read http://jquery14.com/day-07/new-jquery-forum/ I read that: Additionally, we wanted something that lowered the barrier to asking a question - something that anyone would be able to use Well, for some categories of users, the movement to a forum has done exactly the reverse, because a forum is much less accessible than a mailing list for screen reader users for example, but for other categories of users also. For example, if a user uses a good mail client, he or she could configure it so all the messages from the list to go to a specific folder, the messages that contain some words in the subjects or in the body to go to another special folder as they arrive, the messages are automaticly grouped by conversation, and they can easier be all saved locally or all deleted (or individually). The best solution from the perspective of the users would be to have a mailing list system that can also offer and present the messages on the web, but this would involve more work for JQuery developers, and it seems that this idea is the best, but there is nobody willing to help doing and administering it. So the JQuery developers have chosen to use a forum which is administered by somebody else. That's very OK, but I think at least the JQuery mailing lists should not be disabled, while there still are users that prefer using them. To be honest, I've never been a fan of forums, either. But after spending some time in the jQuery forum, I'm starting to appreciate its advantages over a plain mailing list. Can you please tell us which are those advantages? (in general, not only regarding JQuery forum.) Thanks. Octavian
Re: [jQuery] New Forums
From: Richard D. Worth rdwo...@gmail.com On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.comwrote: For example, if a user uses a good mail client, he or she could configure it so all the messages from the list to go to a specific folder, the messages that contain some words in the subjects or in the body to go to another special folder as they arrive, the messages are automaticly grouped by conversation, and they can easier be all saved locally or all deleted (or individually). And if a user has a good rss reader they can do the same with a forum. Also, There are no good RSS readers. (that work with a screen reader as well as a mail client). using rss2email services, they could have the best of both worlds. I don't know any RSS2email service, but I don't think it offers the same features like a mailing list, because the user that reads messages can't reply to a message they receive. I don't know that they will be disabled, but if not they will be completely unmoderated. This means way more spam than before. In addition, many active contributors, including jQuery team members, have moved over to the forum, so there will be a lot less traffic on the mailing lists. People may still find help and answers, but it won't be the official forum. Just as before when the mailing list was the official forum, people found answers elsewhere. That's OK. Much better than no mailing list at all. *Tags* I tag and filter emails, and it's been really nice. But it's always bothered me that all the tagging and filtering I do has to be duplicated by everyone else consuming the same content. Using tags on the website forum, all this metadata can be shared. Most mailing list users just read the messages and post a question when they want an answer for a specific question. For that type of users the tags are useless. *Types* On the forum, there are 5 type of threads: Discussions, Questions, Ideas, Problems, and Announcements. These can be selected by the OP and corrected be a moderator, and searched and filtered on. Another piece of shared metadata. I find much easier to use a Find in Outlook Express in the saved messages or even in Deleted items where I have tens of thousand messages, and the results are much more accessible, presented in a standard list that can be navigated easier than a web page. *Categories* Before we had 5 or 6 mailing lists for different sub-topics. Many times a day as a moderator, I would have to kindly ask someone to move a discussion to the correct forum, to keep noise down, to keep the list on-topic, and to ensure people saw the question and the answer in the right place, whether via email or web archive. This was not only a real pain, but it's not that much fun for anyone involved, especially new users that may not have a clue that there's more than one list, or which list to post to: jquery-en, jquery-dev, jquery-ui, jquery-ui-dev, jquery-a11y, etc. On the new website forum, not only is it easier to see which top-level forum topics are available for posting, but if something is posted in the wrong forum, a moderator can simply select 'Move this topic' and then select the correct sub-forum. That immediately reflects in any sorting, filtering, or categorization anyone does. Another piece of shared metadata. I understand you, but don't present this as an advantage, because it is an advantage for just a few people, the most helpful people from the list, but with a zero importance for the tens of thousand list members. *Status* In addition to being able to tag, type, and categorize each thread, a moderator and/or the OP can set the status of a thread. The OP can select an answer as the best, meaning future visitors can read 2 messages instead of 20. Moderators can set the status as 'more info needed', closed, answered, open, in-progress, etc. All these statuses can be used in sorting and filtering. Another piece of shared metadata. Like in Wikipedia's case, I never search with Wikipedia's search engine, but I use Google. If I want to find something regarding JQuery, I will also use Google, and not just a certain forum. So this feature has a very low importance. If the web would be as accessible as a desktop app, I would probably search on a single forum, but it isn't. Noticing a trend? *Moderation edit controls* Posts can be edited. This isn't possible with email, since the message was already sent. And the web archive stores only the original message. This needs to be used judiciously, but can be great for fixing typographical errors, adding some important keywords to a thread topic, fixing some formatting, etc. This is not important. I prefer to find something as fast as possible, even if it contain typographical errors But I don't find it important probably because I am not a moderator, just like the case of almost all the list members. *Permalinks* Have you ever tried to email someone a google groups mailing
Re: [jQuery] New Forums
From: Karl Swedberg k...@englishrules.com On Jan 22, 2010, at 12:54 PM, Octavian Rasnita wrote: With the web-based forum, while on the thread you want to email or link to 1. Click 'Permalink' I can't click because I can't use a mouse. I need to press probably tens of tab keys until I find that link, and if I type too fast I might skip it and need to tab over the same links for more times. And after I press enter on that link I would need to jump over more other page parts until I reach to the real body of the message. While most of the other complaints in this thread seem to be based on personal preference, this one is a serious issue. We have raised the issue of keyboard accessibility with the Zoho team, and they're working to ameliorate it. Not only some, but all I said are based on personal preferences, because if I wouldn't prefer that way, I wouldn't tell you about it. :-) I didn't even tested too much the new forum, because no matter how accessible would be a web page, it would be always less accessible and usable than a good desktop app, so the usability is the one that matters, not only accessibility. As an example, for moving to the next unread message in Outlook Express, I just need to press a single hotkey (Ctrl+U). If I want to delete that message (or thread, because it can cover a whole discussion), I just need to press a single Del key. If the same things can be done at least as easy as this, I would instantly start to like the forums. Oh yes it is, because a web page doesn't offer the same accessibility features for a screen reader as a desktop app does. And unfortunately most RSS readers also use a web format, so they are not better accessible at all. There are plenty of desktop RSS readers available for PC and Mac. I know, but most of them use an internal window that uses HTML, because most RSS content includes HTML code, so it is the same thing, or even worse, because at least Internet Explorer and Firefox have some scripts for the screen reader that make them more accessible, but those RSS reader don't have such a thing. I haven't tested all RSS readers ever made, but not all the desktop apps are accessible for screen readers. For example the TK/GTK interfaces are not accessible at all (under Windows), The Java SWING-based interfaces are very hard accessible and slow responsive with JAWS (the screen reader I use), the QT interfaces are also not accessible at all... even the DotNet (Windows Forms) have accessibility issues. If it would be easier to use a forum, I would gladly start using one. Octavian
Re: [jQuery] Re: New Forums
From: MorningZ morni...@gmail.com Besides, as Richard pointed out, the mailing list right here will still exist, it just won't be moderated/managed by the people it was before.. That would be good, because at least for a period there would still be an accessible source of information for JQuery. Octavian
Re: [jQuery] new forums used?
If the forum is prefered by some users, that's OK, but I don't think it is a good idea to kill the mailing lists, because there are many users that prefer reading a mailing list. The forums will *always* be much less accessible for the blind users for example so it would be much helpful if both ways of communicating will coexist. If some of the users won't like the forum, they would be able to use the mailing lists, while if other users wouldn't want to receive the emails from the mailing list they could just unsubscribe, so the mailing lists won't hurt anyone. Octavian - Original Message - From: speedpac...@gmail.com To: jQuery (English) jquery-en@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 4:50 PM Subject: [jQuery] new forums used? Hi there, I just noticed this group is still having lots of activity. I for one am very pleased to see we're moving to actual forum on forum.jquery.com, but it appears that moderation isn't done there yet (or I'm just too impatient...) Are we supposed to continue posting here, or was my first idea right to start using the new forum? Thanks so much for a fantastic library, great support, and a marvellous spirit :) David.
Re: [jQuery] new forums used?
From: Nathan Klatt n8kl...@gmail.com On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.com wrote: If some of the users won't like the forum, they would be able to use the mailing lists, while if other users wouldn't want to receive the emails from the mailing list they could just unsubscribe, so the mailing lists won't hurt anyone. The mailing list is great but what's expected to happen shortly after they stop moderating it, reportedly a significant effort, is the list will be overrun by spammers. Hopefully their fears are unfounded but I'm not holding my breath. Nice knowin' y'all. ;) Well, this is not important at all. If the mailing list subscribers will dislike that spam so much, they will be able to unsubscribe anytime, but maybe some of them will happily accept that spam and also like to continue using the list. I am subscribed to the list with a Gmail address that takes care of most of the spam, and I also have an anti-spam application for other email accounts I use, so it is easier to use a spammed mailing list than a forum. Octavian
[jQuery] mailing list?
Hi, Does the new forum offer the possibility of posting messages using an email client? (Or another standard Win32 desktop app? (Does the new site has its own mailing list manager?) Thanks. Octavian PS. I ask this because a web forum is less accessible (for the screen readers used by the blind).
Re: [jQuery] New Forums
The mailing list/forum admins can install Mailman and use their own mailing list, and manage the spam themselves, without depending on a third party mailing list provider. A mailing list is more accessible than a forum for everyone, and there are solutions for presenting the emails on a public web forum if this is wanted, but I guess that the mailing list admins choosed the easiest solution, not the best. Octavian - Original Message - From: Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com To: jquery-en@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 1:51 AM Subject: Re: [jQuery] New Forums I concur regarding mailing list vs. forum. Both have their positives and negatives, but these days I definitely prefer a mailing list over forums. Perhaps the jQuery team could not find another mailing list that would import all of the existing posts on Google Groups? (My understanding is that they were able to do just that with the new forums.)
[jQuery] combo boxes with ajax
Hi, I would like to use a set of 2 or more combo boxes that use ajax so when I select an item from the first combo box, an ajax request is sent to the server for getting the items for the second combo box. Please tell me what's the recommended way of doing this. Is there a jQuery plugin or another way? Thank you. -- Octavian
