Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
Le mercredi 17 décembre 2014 à 10:43 -0800, Douglas Bates a écrit : On Tuesday, December 16, 2014 5:50:12 PM UTC-6, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. I''m glad to hear you say that. I was wondering whether your comment was serious or not. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. I am quite optimistic that the Julia community will not evolve the way that R did. Two reasons for this are: 1. Stefan, Jeff and Viral are surprisingly well adjusted for such technically accomplished people. :-) 2. I really do think that github and the other tools used for developing Julia encourage social coding. I believe that over 300 people have contributed to github.com/JuliaLang/julia in the few years that the project has been on github. That is incredible. Indeed, apart from the harsh tone on the R mailing lists (I couldn't have described it better than Ivo did), the factor that I think drives developers away from R is the idea that it's documented, so it's not a bug and doesn't need to change. For some time you try to contribute improvements to the project, but at some point you get tired of trying to convince core developers just to be able to help somewhere. Result: SVN tells me about 30 people have committed to the R code base in all those years -- 10 times less than Julia, and 100 times less than the number of R packages... Indeed one of the greatest achievements of Julia so far is social, in part thanks to git and Github, but mostly (I suspect) thanks to the spirit of the core team. I see no reason why it would change. Regards this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
On Thu, Dec 18 2014, Milan Bouchet-Valat nalimi...@club.fr wrote: the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. Indeed, apart from the harsh tone on the R mailing lists (I couldn't have described it better than Ivo did), the factor that I think drives developers away from R is the idea that it's documented, so it's not a bug and doesn't need to change. For some time you try to contribute improvements to the project, but at some point you get tired of trying to convince core developers just to be able to help somewhere. Result: While I agree with the above description of the R community, we should take the context into account: R itself comes from S-plus, and there is quite a bit of legacy code that they would not want to break with incompatible changes. Hopefully Julia will never get ossified like this. Best, Tamas
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
Compatibility is tough and we've really just barely started to deal with it, but I think so far it's going pretty well. Multiple dispatch is uncannily good at deprecating things, and having a dynamic language with nice metaprogramming makes it possible to do clever things like Compat.jl, which makes it much easier to the language. Changes will slow down once we hit 1.0, but they shouldn't stop. If we can make transitions between major versions relatively painless, then we'll be able to continue to innovate without getting stuck between versions the way Perl and Python have (for quite opposite reasons). The Ruby transition from 1.8 to 2.0 is a good model – they broke some things, but not so much that the language became unfamiliar, and the pain of switching was more than fairly compensated for by better performance and features that make the language more pleasant to use. People should be excited about upgrading, not dread it. On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Tamas Papp tkp...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 18 2014, Milan Bouchet-Valat nalimi...@club.fr wrote: the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. Indeed, apart from the harsh tone on the R mailing lists (I couldn't have described it better than Ivo did), the factor that I think drives developers away from R is the idea that it's documented, so it's not a bug and doesn't need to change. For some time you try to contribute improvements to the project, but at some point you get tired of trying to convince core developers just to be able to help somewhere. Result: While I agree with the above description of the R community, we should take the context into account: R itself comes from S-plus, and there is quite a bit of legacy code that they would not want to break with incompatible changes. Hopefully Julia will never get ossified like this. Best, Tamas
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
Will be exciting to see how fast Julia 0.3 dies down when we start recommending 0.4 by default. kl. 15:27:45 UTC+1 torsdag 18. desember 2014 skrev Stefan Karpinski følgende: Compatibility is tough and we've really just barely started to deal with it, but I think so far it's going pretty well. Multiple dispatch is uncannily good at deprecating things, and having a dynamic language with nice metaprogramming makes it possible to do clever things like Compat.jl, which makes it much easier to the language. Changes will slow down once we hit 1.0, but they shouldn't stop. If we can make transitions between major versions relatively painless, then we'll be able to continue to innovate without getting stuck between versions the way Perl and Python have (for quite opposite reasons). The Ruby transition from 1.8 to 2.0 is a good model – they broke some things, but not so much that the language became unfamiliar, and the pain of switching was more than fairly compensated for by better performance and features that make the language more pleasant to use. People should be excited about upgrading, not dread it. On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Tamas Papp tkp...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: On Thu, Dec 18 2014, Milan Bouchet-Valat nali...@club.fr javascript: wrote: the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. Indeed, apart from the harsh tone on the R mailing lists (I couldn't have described it better than Ivo did), the factor that I think drives developers away from R is the idea that it's documented, so it's not a bug and doesn't need to change. For some time you try to contribute improvements to the project, but at some point you get tired of trying to convince core developers just to be able to help somewhere. Result: While I agree with the above description of the R community, we should take the context into account: R itself comes from S-plus, and there is quite a bit of legacy code that they would not want to break with incompatible changes. Hopefully Julia will never get ossified like this. Best, Tamas
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
As a long-time R user, I second that. Brian Ripley is a core contributor to base R, does reply on R-help to many requests, but is very acerbic. In general, there is quite a big divide between R core contributors and R users. This is totally absent in Julia, with the founders of the language very involved with the early adopters. It's a great asset to have for a new language. Just in recent times, I would say that the early adopters of Clojure were instrumental in the adoption of the language. -gappy On Tuesday, December 16, 2014 6:50:12 PM UTC-5, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
Please don't do that. Unnecessary comments directed at specific people are exactly the kind of thing that start to change the character of a mailing list and lead to burnout. Such comments are especially unwelcome when directed against people who are not active on the list. We should set a higher standard, especially in a thread about how nice the mailing list is. On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Giuseppe Paleologo paleol...@gmail.com wrote: As a long-time R user, I second that. Brian Ripley is a core contributor to base R, does reply on R-help to many requests, but is very acerbic. In general, there is quite a big divide between R core contributors and R users. This is totally absent in Julia, with the founders of the language very involved with the early adopters. It's a great asset to have for a new language. Just in recent times, I would say that the early adopters of Clojure were instrumental in the adoption of the language. -gappy On Tuesday, December 16, 2014 6:50:12 PM UTC-5, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
So would I. Christoph On Wednesday, 17 December 2014 04:53:34 UTC, ivo welch wrote: I would have a buy 3 year membership paypal button for $50 on the julia front page. this way, you also will have some running list of people particularly interested in the language. if this exists, I will join. Ivo Welch (ivo@gmail.com javascript:) http://www.ivo-welch.info/ J. Fred Weston Distinguished Professor of Finance Anderson School at UCLA, C519 Director, UCLA Anderson Fink Center for Finance and Investments Free Finance Textbook, http://book.ivo-welch.info/ Exec Editor, Critical Finance Review, http://www.critical-finance-review.org/ Editor and Publisher, FAMe, http://www.fame-jagazine.com/ On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Viral Shah vi...@mayin.org javascript: wrote: Julia is part of the NumFocus foundation. We don't have a concept of membership, but it can accept grants and donations. We haven't done anything along these lines yet, and are certainly open to ideas. -viral On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:20:12 AM UTC+5:30, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:50 PM, ivo welch ivo...@gmail.com wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. This is certainly something to watch out for. I'm willing to bully people into being nice :-P
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
I'm curious what the membership model for other projects is. What is entailed in a membership? Do you get anything or is it sort of a symbolic status in return for donation? On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:53 PM, ivo welch ivo.we...@anderson.ucla.edu wrote: I would have a buy 3 year membership paypal button for $50 on the julia front page. this way, you also will have some running list of people particularly interested in the language. if this exists, I will join. Ivo Welch (ivo.we...@gmail.com) http://www.ivo-welch.info/ J. Fred Weston Distinguished Professor of Finance Anderson School at UCLA, C519 Director, UCLA Anderson Fink Center for Finance and Investments Free Finance Textbook, http://book.ivo-welch.info/ Exec Editor, Critical Finance Review, http://www.critical-finance-review.org/ Editor and Publisher, FAMe, http://www.fame-jagazine.com/ On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Viral Shah vi...@mayin.org wrote: Julia is part of the NumFocus foundation. We don't have a concept of membership, but it can accept grants and donations. We haven't done anything along these lines yet, and are certainly open to ideas. -viral On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:20:12 AM UTC+5:30, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
On 17-Dec-2014, at 9:00 pm, Stefan Karpinski ste...@karpinski.org wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:50 PM, ivo welch ivo...@gmail.com wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. This is certainly something to watch out for. I'm willing to bully people into being nice :-P We have done this in the past and will certainly enforce niceness as required. :-) The community is one of the reasons people love julia, and why we ourselves love it. I am sure all of us would love to keep it that way. -viral
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
here, here ... setting up something on https://gittip.com/ | https://gratipay.com/ may also prove worthwhile. cdm On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 3:19:10 AM UTC-8, Christoph Ortner wrote: So would I. Christoph On Wednesday, 17 December 2014 04:53:34 UTC, ivo welch wrote: I would have a buy 3 year membership paypal button for $50 on the julia front page. this way, you also will have some running list of people particularly interested in the language. if this exists, I will join. Ivo Welch (ivo@gmail.com) http://www.ivo-welch.info/ J. Fred Weston Distinguished Professor of Finance Anderson School at UCLA, C519 Director, UCLA Anderson Fink Center for Finance and Investments Free Finance Textbook, http://book.ivo-welch.info/ Exec Editor, Critical Finance Review, http://www.critical-finance-review.org/ Editor and Publisher, FAMe, http://www.fame-jagazine.com/ On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Viral Shah vi...@mayin.org wrote: Julia is part of the NumFocus foundation. We don't have a concept of membership, but it can accept grants and donations. We haven't done anything along these lines yet, and are certainly open to ideas. -viral On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:20:12 AM UTC+5:30, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 4:52 PM, cdm cdmclean@gmail.com wrote: setting up something on https://gittip.com/ | https://gratipay.com/ Don't these have a limit on the donations received per week? IIRC, it was USD25/week. Not sure. Also its mostly a platform for individual foss volunteers to get tipped regularly on a weekly basis, and if you live outside the US (like Viral) there is no way of cashing out - fwiw, the local bank/tax charges would be higher than the tips you receive weekly, not to mention how you'd explain that in your tax returns. Something to think about before finalizing the donation platform. /thinking out loud SVAKSHA ॥ http://about.me/svaksha ॥
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
These are good points, Svaksha. I don't think we should go with one of these tipping platforms. Julia is part of NumFocus – a 501(c)(3) that can accept donations. If anyone wants to donate to Julia development, you can do it right now from this page: http://numfocus.org/projects/index.html We can figure out a membership plan too, but it's already possible to take money directly for Julia development. On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 11:36 PM, SVAKSHA svak...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 4:52 PM, cdm cdmclean@gmail.com wrote: setting up something on https://gittip.com/ | https://gratipay.com/ Don't these have a limit on the donations received per week? IIRC, it was USD25/week. Not sure. Also its mostly a platform for individual foss volunteers to get tipped regularly on a weekly basis, and if you live outside the US (like Viral) there is no way of cashing out - fwiw, the local bank/tax charges would be higher than the tips you receive weekly, not to mention how you'd explain that in your tax returns. Something to think about before finalizing the donation platform. /thinking out loud SVAKSHA ॥ http://about.me/svaksha ॥
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
+1 to what Tomas said. I've been here for two years, and while no one really knows the future, the community has been amazing that whole time, and doesn't showed signs of changing right now. Cheers! Kevin On Tuesday, December 16, 2014, Tomas Lycken tomas.lyc...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know about the R community at all - I came here from the general direction of Matlab and Python. Regarding maintaining this culture, I haven't yet seen any signs that we should worry - but of course, that's because what I *have* seen is that most of the people that are deeply involved also care deeply about keeping this community as nice and productive as it is. In my book, that's quite good enough for now. // T On Friday, December 12, 2014 1:47:14 PM UTC+1, ivo welch wrote: You mean it's better than even the R guys? Maintaining culture in the long run will be hard.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
+10 - but in my case beers are on you (its quite expensive here in Norway :)
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
Julia is part of the NumFocus foundation. We don't have a concept of membership, but it can accept grants and donations. We haven't done anything along these lines yet, and are certainly open to ideas. -viral On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:20:12 AM UTC+5:30, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
I would have a buy 3 year membership paypal button for $50 on the julia front page. this way, you also will have some running list of people particularly interested in the language. if this exists, I will join. Ivo Welch (ivo.we...@gmail.com) http://www.ivo-welch.info/ J. Fred Weston Distinguished Professor of Finance Anderson School at UCLA, C519 Director, UCLA Anderson Fink Center for Finance and Investments Free Finance Textbook, http://book.ivo-welch.info/ Exec Editor, Critical Finance Review, http://www.critical-finance-review.org/ Editor and Publisher, FAMe, http://www.fame-jagazine.com/ On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Viral Shah vi...@mayin.org wrote: Julia is part of the NumFocus foundation. We don't have a concept of membership, but it can accept grants and donations. We haven't done anything along these lines yet, and are certainly open to ideas. -viral On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:20:12 AM UTC+5:30, ivo welch wrote: my note was partly a joke, partly a warning. the R community started out very nice, too. many still are. but some of the tone has shifted towards the obnoxious. the weirdest part is that there are some people who seem to enjoy *really* helping users, all the while being somewhat insulting. it is my (incomplete) understanding that internal strife in the core development team has become negative, too. it will be up to the julia core team to set the community standard and watch themselves and the community to keep it alive. this reminds me: for those of us who cannot contribute, is there a julia foundation membership? it would not be a bad idea to have us using users get used to contributing, too.
[julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
I've been playing in Julia for the past week or so, but already the results are convincing. This language is GREAT. I've coded hundreds of thousands of lines in Fortran, C, C++, Matlab, and this is the first language that feels good. And it is precisely what I envision for my project. So, THANKS! Petr Krysl
Re: [julia-users] THANKS to Julia core developers!
:-D On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Petr Krysl krysl.p...@gmail.com wrote: I've been playing in Julia for the past week or so, but already the results are convincing. This language is GREAT. I've coded hundreds of thousands of lines in Fortran, C, C++, Matlab, and this is the first language that feels good. And it is precisely what I envision for my project. So, THANKS! Petr Krysl
